I enjoyed your comment very much. YES! All our God requires of us is faith. That is where Judeo-Christianity is different from all other religions. Trying to persuade those I love to grasp this truth has not been possible for me yet. Perhaps your comments will be the right words for them to see the light. aggieb
So, according to you, all I have to do is take my life and then I will FINALLY be able to sit at the Lords feet instead of having to endure the sins of this world?
Of course not... that is ludicrous.
I don't know about the situation that happened in your community, but making a broad statement such as you have is very dangerous, especially to new believers still trying to understand grace and all it encompasses.
It is also contridictory towards the commandments which state "love your neighbor as yourself". So in a sense, when you think about killing yourself, you are also contemplating murdering your neighbor. As a believer in Christ, this is completely against the new nature that God has created in you.
I am having a hard time understanding why someone who is loved and forgiven unconditionally would take their own life.
This is an interesting discussion.
A4given1:
It is nothing more than the old argument of whether you can lose your salvation. You can't. Nothing, including suicide, can cause you to lose it (e.g., John 10:2
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You wrote:
"I am having a hard time understanding why someone who is loved and forgiven unconditionally would take their own life. "
To be frank, what you have a hard time understanding is not important--in truth no man can say whether a saved person could kill themself. The bible does not say it would never happen. But assume you are correct. It doesn't contradict my premise--which is that suicide won't casue you to lose your salvation. It just means we are discussing an empty set.
Loraine Boettner once pointed out that for an Arminian, Catholic or other hemi-demi-semi-Pelagian, who believe it's possible for a once-saved person to later lose their salvation, the most rational thing to do would be to kill yourself as soon as you had been baptised (either paedo- or credo-). And the greatest act of mercy would be to kill someone currently in a state of grace. The certain loss of your earthly life would be nothing compared to removing the risk that, by some post-justification sin, you could later forfeit your salvation and send yourself to hell. Whereas to a Reformed Christian, suicide is not a mortal sin but is merely pointless: you gain nothing, but lose the chance to go on to do good works through the rest of your life. A suicide is a sad waste, to be pitied but not condemned.
So ban on suicide -- declaring it not just a sin to be avoided, but a mortal sin, one that can't be forgiven (even by undergoing Purgatory, if I understand the RC doctrine correctly) -- is a sensible way of restraining some of the more enthusiastic private interpretations that Catholicism has traditionally (NPI) spawned over the centuries. I'm not saying this was necessary the subjective intent of the doctrine, but it does serve the purpose of limiting zealous believers to non-lethal methods of self-harm -- cilices, hair shirts and the occasional nailing onself to a cross and carrying it.
For the record: "We should not despari of the eternal salvation of person who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentence. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives." Catechism of the Catholic Church 2283.
Better to have it from the horse's mouth.
That said....salvation is not something you "get" and keep in your back pocket.
My problem with this argument is my problem with reformed theology in general, namely the defination of faith. James set it out nicely: it is a belief that results in works. Faith without works is dead is worthless to save anyone. Faith and works can be differentiated, but never seperated. They are complimentary halves of the same coin.
James, I'm not sure why that should be a problem with Reformed theology? It's not Reformed Christians who say, "Yep, X had genuine faith all right, but he lacked sufficient works, so he ended up in hell".
Yes, but Reformed thinkers too often define faith as a mere head knowledge, an agreement with certain theological truths apart from any behavioral evidence of its reality. Can it be said that a suicide has a true faith? We all sin, and every instance is an act of disbelief. The only beliefs that matter are those that are conveyed and quickened by our actions and attitudes. Correct theology is not what God asks of us.
James, I agree that biblical faith is indeed one which expresses itself in our behavior. But if true beleivers still have times in their life when they do sin (even if rare), is it not possible that a suicide could be one such instance?
Unless suicide is somehow inherently more dastardly and wicked than other sins (especially Biblically so stated), how can we mark that sin as one which proves a lack of saving faith and others sins not?
I'm not really arguing with your main point. As a not-Catholic, I don't believe that a suicide is a one-way ticket hell. However, I dispute the Protestant view of salvation as a single event that happens at the beginning of the Christian life, rather than as its culmination. Suicide is an act of disbelief, perhaps the gravest example of such, and thus is capable of calling a person's faith into question. I don't presume to box God in in such cases, He saves who He will, and only He knows the hearts and minds. I just think it is equally wrong to say the person who had a salvific experience at some point is immune from hell, even if he falls into sin and/or suicide as it is to say that suicide nullifies every good thing that went before it and renders a person unfit for heaven.
I am really surprised at this conversation.
" Suicide falls into the category of anti-works "
Anti-Christ...anti-faith...anti-works.
Having said that, and seeing that we have to give an answer, I would be advising people NOT to do it. I would also advise them to seek a loving and almighty God, no matter what the tribulations in this life, perhaps the reward in eternity for our suffering here on earth will be commensurate, as befitting the promises of our loving , omnipotent creator. Unless of course we throw it away. I believe verses such as Romans 8:38 are reliant on our co-operation and enthusiasm too. Just read vs34 for instance, as an example of some hope for the distressed soul who would rather trust God than take their own life. What about Job? There may come a time in our walk with God, that we are tested. These are times we must cling to God the most. I have said to non-believers who may be contemplating suicide,that their desperation will pass and that times will be better. Am I to have different advice for christians? No, we must trust God, advise against suicide and have compassion AND wisdom.
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