I don't think Simon's faith "failed." I think it suffered a temporary setback. Christ obviously knew it would and said ". . . when you have turned back . . . ", obviously referring to the fact that Simon would leave him for a time. Thus, I think that we have to be careful to say that God didn't answer Jesus' prayers. I think, rather, we should recognize that God answers prayers in ways that are not always what we would expect.
BK | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 12:15 pm | #

BK,

Your interpretation may be correct, and it is tempting. However, I think there are some problems.

From a reformed perspective, with a view at the 'P' in TULIP, faith failing must always mean a temporary setback. In other words, I agree that Simon only had a temporary setback, because that is the only kind that a saint can have (Phil. 1:6).

So I would argue Simon’s faith did fail him, because he was tested and did not act faithfully.
David Heddle | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 1:28 pm | #

I agree with BK, I believe the Son of God could only pray effectual prayers.

IMO
Rand | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 1:29 pm | #

Rand,

Are you certain?

We all know that Christ prayed to have the cup taken from Him, but it wasn’t. You might say (correctly) that He added that it was the Father’s will that should be done, but all prayers have an explicit or implied “if it is Your will.” By definition, God’s will will be done, so if we consider it that way, then all prayer is answered and the question is moot.

And Christ’s priestly prayer in John 17. Has all of that been answered?

And Christ prayed that his murderers be forgiven, but do we know for certain that all were, in fact, forgiven?

Just thinking aloud...
David Heddle | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 1:43 pm | #

I won't be able to keep up a dialogue right now because I'm actually at work now, but I will answer your questions.

As for the prayer in Gethsamane, it's a non-starter. It was answered, God's will was done.

I believe the John 17 prayer was, is an is being fulfilled.

And as far as Christ's plea for the Father's forgiveness, I believe that Christ was here speaking of those who took part in the crucifixion with little or no knowledge of who He was or His teachings. John Gill explains this quite well in his "Exposition of the Entire Bible".

Take Care,
Rand | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 1:59 pm | #

David,Weather we like it or not "no" is an answer. Aggieb
Aggie Bojczuk | 09.01.04 - 10:39 pm | #

Interesting comments on the passage. However, I always felt that Jesus' reference to Peter's faith not failing him had to do with the ultimate contest for Peter's soul. Given Peter's track record after Jesus' death and resurrection, I believe that his faith did not fail him. He became an important evangelist in spite of persecution and adversity.
Mark | Homepage | 09.02.04 - 12:14 am | #

I don't necessarily think that Peter's denial means his faith failed, especially if one considers the way that he reacted immediately after the cock crowed.

Perhaps the whole story of Simon Peter (taking into account the Acts of the Apostles) points instead to an understanding in the early Church of the reality of the ability to fall out of a state of grace and to be restored to it.

As a side note, Pope John Paul II has focused a great deal on the words of Christ that you quoted in his understanding of his "Petrine ministry." He sees it as a primary part of his mission to "strengthen his brothers."
Sean Gallagher | 09.02.04 - 1:41 pm | #

I think that Jesus is looking for overcomers--those who fight the good fight and continue on to the end. Sometimes we win the battles, and sometimes we don't. Not winning a battle turns us back to God, so we can learn to completely depend on him and his strength, grace and mercy instead of depending on ourselves and our own strength. The key is to keep on keeping on no matter what. I do worry about those who give up.
I Greet You | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:00 am | #