I disagree with the following statement:
"The human nature retains the attributes of humanity, including limited knowledge, pain and suffering, fatigue, sickness (probably) and aging. With one important exception: sinfulness."
On the contrary, Jesus was more human than any of us, precisely because of his sinlessness.
"The key to understanding the duality of Christ's human nature and His sinlessness is understanding that sin, as part of the human condition, is not the normal condition. God did not create us as sinners, but as a result of the fall, sin has marred our lives. Christ's sinlessness is made clear in Scripture, from His 40 days in the desert, where Satan tempted Christ but failed to entice him in to sin, to the time of the beginning of His ministry where "the favor of God was upon Him" (Luke 2:40)." -Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, Chapter 26
(quote from http://www.theopedia.com/Sinless...sness_of_Jesus)
We fallen creatures are less than fully human until we become sinless.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
Also... I assume you're not allowing for the possibility that the Holy Spirit is not omniscient? Surely Jesus was merely saying that he himself did not know.
Well, he said "only the Father knows." That is fairly explicit. I am not allowing that the Holy Spirit is not omniscienct, but I do not know how to square it with Jesus' statment.
When the Son left heaven to be incarnated we read in Phillipians 2...
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
We also read that Jesus only does what he sees His father doing. That he only speaks what His Father tells Him to say. In otherwords, Jesus lived with a human mind a life of faith and trust.
He is the Son and therefore God because of His person, who He is, but he was human in every respect, knowing what the Father willed Him to know and revealed to Him both from the written Word and daily in His prayer life. Jesus also had the Spirit without measure, anointing Him and helping Him.
Couldn't Jesus simply have been mistaken about the Holy Spirit? After all, it was his human nature speaking, and humans make mistakes, right?
Maybe Jesus just didn't bring up the HS because he hadn't spoken to his disciples about the HS yet. (Though Jesus briefly mentioned the HS once while arguing with pharisees.)The 'olivet discourse' was tuesday night of the passion week (I think) - while 'John 16' was on thursday night before he was arrested.
I think chronology helps so much, sometimes...
By the way, I like your paraphrase "I don't know exactly when." If I remember right, Titus armies were mopping up around palestine in general and closing in on Jerusalem in particular when Nero suddenly committed suicide, delaying the attack for about a year. I can't help wonder if that was divine providence, sparing the city for one last year so some could see, flee and... have glee? Sorry about the rhyme - couldn't resist.
Maybe God decides what he's gonna do, but he's flexible with the timetable. That's not heretical, is it? Simplistic, maybe, I grant you... 
lliboreh
darn, didn't work! What twisted fourth dimensional game do you want me to play this time, Mxy?
herobill,
You are the first to give any sign that they knew who Mr. Myxzptlk is!
I think I'll have to think about the Pentecost aspect.
I'd like to get back to the context fully. I don't mind that Christ did not know. He also stated, 'only God is good'. And as posted earlier here, he was always doing the will of his Father. Finally he would say in John, that we are in him as he is in the Father. This is a beautiful meaning to me more than just pretty prose or metaphor.
So, on to the context...
"But in those days, after that tribulation,
This states after the tribulation, so we know it will be after the destruction of the temple, correct?
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
Now, this is clear. We will all see. It will be unmistakeable.
27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
This is evident too on clearly seen event of messengers sent to gather his elect. Where is he gathering them too? Heaven? As in Thessalonians? Or to Jerusalem? as being talked about in the current address to his disciples?
28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near.
This is the verse that interest me. In Mark 11:14, Christ curses the fig tree going into the city because it has no fruit. It is a sign of things to come. Now, cast this ahead to your discussion and the fig tree begins to bloom. How can we not apply it again back to Jerusalem?
Afterall, he is talking about the downfall of the city prior to his entrance and relates to a fig tree, then again in this chapter to the destruction of the city and the temple and now... watch as the fig tree grows and the leaves bloom and the fruit ripens, declaring and end to the time of the gentiles? There are growing churches today in Israel that are Jewish-Gentile, the old branch with the wild branch, celebrating Christ together and Jewish customs together.
29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
The only question I have here is the grouping of 'all these things'.
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
So true...
32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come.
I love this because he always pointed to the Father. He prayed to the Father. He clearly depended upon the Father for decisons otherwise why would he ever had asked our Father to 'take this cup'?
And in another statement Mt 20:23, he said, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on {My} left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
Another awesome statement! Wow! He comes to serve as a life redeemer and teacher. He saves us but also teaches us by his example - always stating that our Father shows all the ways. That through Him is the way to the Father. Glorious news in so many ways.
Finally, in Mark 14:36, "And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."
Chillingly real... the stress of being in human form is fully palpable, he knew what he faced was excruciating pain. He gave his will over to the Father.
I have no problem with Christ not knowing this event, because as I stated above and quoted, he explicitly stated it was up to the Father who would be on his right and his left.
I think this shows the ultimate 'honor thy Father, honor thy Mother' commandment. Its not stating that he could not know. Its stating that he followed obedience to the Father in detail and form. He clearly let all know that all he was doing was directed by the Father.
We mistake the relationships sometimes I think. He clearly shows that there is in fact a relationship and he holds His Father above all including himself.
I don't find this a hard concept to follow. It does not make Christ any lower or less in my mind, clearly not, it makes me think even more remarkable as his following of the commandments as put down by God, our Father.
In doing so, he teaches us all how to behave in accordance with Christ in our hearts, the word made flesh. Fully, completely and in full view for all to see.
Amazing, I fall so short.
So, anyone on the fig tree?
I think here the lesson of the fig tree is meant to demonstrate that the time for these events was near. In other words, it sets up the following verse:
"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
makes explicit--that the events he was describing would occur within only a short time period.
Thanks David for the response.
For me, it appears to be two different occasions. 1) Destruction of Jerusalem, 2) Second coming of Christ
There seems to me to be a problem with translation from a Hebrew culture and thought process to Greek and to English western concepts.
In verse 10, Christ says, ""The gospel must first be preached to all the nations"
That did not happen prior to the destruction of the temple so we know either Christ is wrong and our faith false, or he is teaching a larger truth of things to come and unlike English structure, words, sentences even ideas maybe are not in linear order. He's teaching of a larger boundary.
From Hebrew concepts or thoughts, to Greek, to English... mmmmphhh.
v5 says, 'See to it'(greek blepo), whereas v33 says, 'take heed'(blepo again).
So much information exchange. What if Christ was saying, 'take heed, you mislead no one'? Another words, be careful what you teach? Make sure they understand all these things must pass. And as a sign, the fig tree is the sign of the return.
If its not interpreted this way, then what sense does v29 make? "Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door."
I think the fig tree must be seperate from the temple and the city destruction. Otherwise, you have to dismiss, 'coming in the clouds too' prior to the fig tree sign.
I agree that it makes explicit the events would occur in a short time.
I guess we disagree on what the 'events' are at the 'time' of the fig tree.
I believe the events are split. One is the fig tree is shriveled with no fruit, cursed and therefore Jerusalem is cursed for not recognizing Christ. There is always a foreshadow of things to come. And the temple comes tumbling down, the city and Israel.
But then Christ moves on to the 'future event' and says, watch for the fig tree to bloom again that you will look for Christ in the clouds(as he left and ascended so he returns), he is at the door.
Otherwise, we cannot explain Christ in the clouds coming, right? Obviously it has not happened.
Jeremiah relates the 'fig tree' to people of Jerusalem and so does Hosea. In the Hebrew tradition Christ teaches this story.
I look upon the fig tree blooming as the sign of Christ coming and the prior sign of the fig tree cursed for Israels downfall.
2 fig trees
2 events
2 outcomes
1 Christ
Michael,
“In verse 10, Christ says, ""The gospel must first be preached to all the nations"
That did not happen prior to the destruction of the temple”
I disagree. Paul wrote: if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Col 1:23)
See Col 1:6 as well.
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