Hey, Scott. Nice work. There's something else it teaches: There are True Believers inside the Roman Catholic Church with whom we can have real fellowship, encourage each other and build each other in the faith. That's exciting, too!
I'm a former evangelical who would've made much the same points as your fictional Catholic here. Don't neglect I Tim. 3:15!
The problem Protetstants always and everywhere will have is a lack of authority for understanding and teaching Scripture. So if someone (who says he accepts the Bible as the Word of God) says to you-"I don't believe Jesus was truly God", you'll throw fourty verses at him, he'll throw fourty at you...and no one will be convinced of anything other than their original view. It's not hard to find those verses which seem to disprove Jesus' divinity. We all know them. When he cites those texts, it won't be enough to use yours and then in frustration say, "Well, you just don't believe the Bible!" Maybe your literal Devil's Advocate doesn't, but that hardly settles the question. You need real authority, other than your own personal or denominational interpretation. And given that Protestants, evangelical and othwerwisw, can't agree among themselves about the meaning of, say, the Sacraments, it's also not enough to say, "Well, we evangelicals agree on all the big issues." You don't.
John,
I am intrigued by your claim that there are verses in the Bible that seem to contradict Jesus' divinity. I am interested to know which ones if you can kindly point them out. I am not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know. Thanks.
Actually, what is most fascinating about this dialogue to a former Catholic like me is that I never--and I emphasize never--heard anything even remotely like this during my time in the Catholic church, including Catholic grade school and high school.
There's a point to be made here. In high theory, I'm told, the Catholic church does not teach salvation by works. However, I'd encourage you to ask the ordinary, everyday Catholic in the pew (I have) how they expect to get to heaven. I have always heard a works answer. If the Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, it is doing a remarkably poor job of getting the word out.
I am agnostic, and from my perspective I notice this: I am currently searching for something more to believe in. Christianity in general makes some compelling points for me. But what I find incredibly distressing about Christianity are these little differences that the different branches (Lutheran, Baptist, faith-free, Catholic) of that faith (Christianity) focus so heavily on. What I usually hear (from Wisconsin Synod Lutherans and the 'faith-free, non-denominationals) is that Catholics are so wrong that they can't be saved. Then I look over the differences again and just get confused. Maybe Christianity just isn't for me, but if this loving God would be so concerned about these little differences.... then that particular faith might be too esoteric for me.
I've spoke with Lutheran ministers, Baptist and faith-free ministers as well as Catholic priests. The most accepting of the others just mentioned were the Catholic priests.
I listen to religious radio stations (this is where I really 1st started noticing internal hostilities *because I never really cared to pay attention before*).... the reformed or evangelical stations would take a large portion of their time addressing why Catholicism is wrong.... While the Catholic radio stations addressed more 'worldly' issues. At times the Catholic station did get particular with what made a Catholic a Catholic; while I had a hard time making too much sense of it.... the one thing that did stand out, is that opposed to the evangelical and reformed stations I didn't hear the Catholic station going on and on about why everyone else is wrong.
Just what I noticed.
The oddest/funniest thing I noticed was this. While talking to the heads of those particular faiths I would make mention of considering coming to Christianity, and I would state that I was more than likely going to be come the opposite of who I was talking to (if I was talking to a priest, I would say lutheran or faith-free evangelical.... if I was talking to a any minister that was non-Catholic I would say Catholic). The priest was the only one that 'seemed' just happy that I was coming to Jesus. The faith-free minister was happy that I was coming to Jesus, but made it out to seem that I was persuing it incorrectly, the WELS Lutheran minister was very outspoken about how Catholic teachings will lead me down the wrong path.... EVEN if I stated that I was going to start developing a relationship with Jesus. And the pattern followed with other non-Catholic approaches, except the Presbyterians (sorry if I spelt it wrong).
Kind of upsetting all in all.
Agnostic: you make a compelling, interesting post. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!
I am a lay person - not nearly so well educated as many who read and post on this site. With that disclaimer, I have this simple bit of advice for you:
Do not confuse the works of God and man.
A basic tenet of my beliefs, as a Christian, is that NO man save one has been or ever will be without sin. The church is a construct of man, and is comprised entirely and completely of sinners. Anything we do is bound to be screwed up.
Demoninational arguments have gone on for centuries... in fact, as a person that was raised Southern Baptist and later moved to the United Methodist denomination, I have recently moved to a Bible-based, non-denominational church focused on the teaching of scripture and its applicability to the lives of its congregation. I am more at home in this environment, certainly.
Does this mean I think MY church gets it "right", while others are "wrong"? No... not in the slightest. It simply means that I have found a means by which I feel most connected to my faith. My church, as my pastor admits on a daily basis, is led by flawed sinners, and makes mistakes all the time.
Christianity, in my opinion, isn't about getting a set of rules laid down properly. It's about seeking out a relationship with God - and interpersonal, intimate, one-on-one relationship with God... which my faith teaches me is possible because God desires this.
Anyway - my prayer is that people who question their faith (which would be ALL people of faith) would remember that the things we argue and discuss are about differences between corrupt, unworthy sinners (which again would be ALL people of faith) rather than the differences we have with God.
Religion is a means to an end... the end is our relationship, and our salvation, with God... neither of which is possible without His Grace.
Agnostic,
Thanks for the post. I found it pretty interesting. It matches what I've experienced in my life. My uncle is nondenominational (what you're referring to as faith-free, I think) and my fiancee is Lutheran (the strict branch, WELS).
I'm Catholic and I hear a decent amount of criticism about the Catholic Church from my uncle and my fiancee's pastor.
Maybe I'm being too pluralistic with this, but, I think that as long as Christ is the central of your focus then you're on the right path.
Don't be discouraged by the differences between the varying branches. Eventhough my fiancee's faith (thankfully she personally isn't critical towards mine) and my uncle's are somewhat critical towards mine, I'm just happy that they have a strong relationship with Christ.
The similarities among the branches are vast and of great importance.
Good luck with your journey. Aside from the differences, I think you'll find alot satisfying with bringing Christ into your life. Regardless if you do it as a Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, nondenominational, Anglican, Methodist.
You'll notice a difference. I know I have 
Nice post David ... look forward to reading more. Here is a question about praying to Mary or the Saints:
If omnipresence is ascribed only to God then how does Mary, or any of the Saints, hear the prayers prayed to them?
Kansas Bob:
Omnipresence (and omniscience, which is what I think you are actually thinking of) is an attribute or quality of God. Like His glory, His omnipotence, His loving-kindess, etc., it is something which He has by nature simply by being God. They are not qualities or attributes which we human beings have by nature.
BUT ... the qualities or properties which God has by nature, He can and does choose to give to His people by grace. Scripture consistently promises us that those who are redeemed will become like Him. That means that the redeemed come to share in His qualities, His properties, and His attributes. It is for this reason that St Paul says that He, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich (2 Cor 8.9). The riches that St Paul speaks of are the attributes or qualities which the Son of God has by virtue of His divine nature. It is these that He laid aside in becoming man, and it is these which He bestows by grace upon His redeemed. Thus St Peter tells us that it is our goal to become partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1.4).
Since Scripture teaches us that the redeemed become like God, that they share his characteristics (because those characteristics are bestowed on them by grace), you cannot say that it is impossible for the saints to be aware of the situations and the prayers of those still living.
Thanks for the post David. I look forward to seeing the rest of the topic.
I agree wholeheartedly with Tom that what members of a catholic congregation learn from mass is pretty much the 'protestant myths'. I should know. I was raised in the Catholic church.
From my current understanding however, they don't think salvation is by works, but due to infant baptism, they feel you can lose you salvation if your works are not good enough.
So if you forget infant baptism as useful (How can an infant repent and be baptised anyway?), they do seem to teach salvation by works (though not technically)
That exchange between Bob and Scott was simply amazing. I read it some 5 times over. I'm a Protestant, but it caused me to reconsider that. I'm curious why the blog's owner didn't attempt to answer any of Scott's arguments.
Chris ... interesting take on omniscience and omnipresence. Is it your thinking that to be like God is to have His abilities as well as His nature? What about omnipotence ... in your line of thought this attribute is logically next and of course, if heavenly saints are omnipotent they become answerers of prayer ... this seems problematic.
Personally I think that to become like God is to become like Him in nature and not powers.
This thinking leads me to ask:
1) How can Mary hear one's prayer if she is not everytime everywhere?
2) If Mary can hear then why can't she also answer prayer?
3) Is Mary another mediator between God and man? If so then why did Jesus have to die the way that He did?
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