David,

It's convenient to have an ancient set of rules to back up odious actions and behavior, especially when it can be argued that a certain amount of "interpretation" — though never outright denial,is necessary for them to properly be applied to any given situation.
Miscegenation was banned based on Biblical rules, slavery was justified by the same book. I reject the tired arguments that try to excuse perfectly obvious errors and blunders of religion by insisting that "it doesn't really mean that." It means what it says, and no amount of alibi-ing and explaining will convince me that they didn't intend the faithful to actually believe that slavery was necessary.The Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament doesn't recognize slaves as human beings. The Bible also in both the Old and the New Testaments encourages slavery and enslaving people. It doesn't encourage nor command Christians to fight for others' rights and to liberate them from slavery. Instead, the Bible repeatedly talks about slaves as worthless sub humans and animals who must not gain their freedom unless they convert to Christianity.
. Make up your mind: either it's right, or it's wrong.
JONBOY | 03.24.06 - 12:19 pm | #

JONBOY,

Who said it doesn’t mean that (whatever "that" is)? If you followed the thread on Ed’s blog you will see that I stated that all those things we find in the Old Testament, including slavery and Joshua’s annihilation of entire nations, done by God’s decree, was good. Likewise the exile and enslavement of the Jews was good. In fact, the enslavement of the Jews in Egypt was almost transparently good due to its obvious role in redemptive history. I am not claiming they were misunderstood events (although I am also not claiming that I understand all of them.)

Everything that God commanded in the Old Testament, everything you find heinous and evil, was in fact good.

My posts have nothing to do with Old Testament decrees to the Jews, but with the question of Roman slavery, which was not decreed by God.

Anything on slavery in the New Testament is consistent the idea that slavery existed, and like other heinous human institutions, its destruction was not a divine priority. Jesus did not teach: not that I’m here I want you to find to end slavery, close brothels, and clean up government. One could deduce those as worthy goals, but they were not made explicit commands.

That is the problem: some want to use the fact that ending slavery was not a divine priority as evidence that God condoned it. That’s a false dilemma fallacy.

God, working through Paul, did not condone Roman slavery. He simply viewed spreading the gospel as far more important. In fact, converted slaves are particularly powerful witnesses.

God calls on his people to be prepared to be martyred Given that, it is not surprising that some of his disciples were to be slaves.
David Heddle | 03.24.06 - 1:37 pm | #

"the Bible repeatedly talks about slaves as worthless sub humans and animals who must not gain their freedom unless they convert to Christianity"

Not that I expect a response, but could you cite some verses to substantiate this claim? Or have you even read the Bible?
Tom | 03.24.06 - 2:36 pm | #

Tom wrote: Or have you even read the Bible? Your comment is without merit and contains the standard apologetic rationalization.
David Said:
Everything that God commanded in the Old Testament, everything you find heinous and evil, was in fact good.
Slavery and immoral acts are no more right in 2,000 B.C. than in 2,000 A.D. Morality has not changed that much, regardless of cultural difference and time differentials.
You attempt to gloss over the situation by alleging these verses came from the God of the Old Testament and his laws, while the New Testament's God is supposedly one of love, liberty and compassion. If so, somebody forgot to tell Peter and Paul. The latter said: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men....(Eph. 6:5-7, NIV)." "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered (1 Tim. 6:1, NIV)." "Slaves, obey your earthy masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord (Col. 3:22, NIV)." "Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,....(Titus 2:9, NIV)." Paul not only sanctions slavery but equates serving one's master with serving God. To serve one faithfully is to serve the other faithfully. Peter agrees with Paul: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your master with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also those who are harsh....Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps (1 Peter 2:18,21, NIV)." Clearly, according to the Bible, the spirit of the Lord has little to do with liberty. If they were inseparable, God wouldn't be supporting the slavemasters
. With millions of Christians exhibiting behavior similar to your own, no wonder they have an overwhelming psychological need for confession and repentance. Their conscience must be driving them up a wall
JONBOY | 03.24.06 - 6:48 pm | #

Dear God....our friend Jonboy here can read...but he cannot see!!

And I do not say that in meaness of spirit!
Albertadude | 03.25.06 - 5:58 am | #

Albertadude,
It is you who are unable to see my friend, Don't you believe the Bible when it says, "Prove all things..." (1 Thess. 5:12) or "But the wisdom from above is first pure, then...open to reason,..." (James 3:17)
Quoting from a work is fruitless unless you first prove the book is valid, truthful and reliable, so I question the Bible, you seem to merely assume as much.Remember,the Bible says, "Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you;..." (1 Peter 3:15).
JONBOY | 03.25.06 - 10:03 am | #

JONBOY, I don't have a lot of time to respond. It is interesting to not that you have selectivly quoted from the bible to support your case. If you read the surrounding verses in of the ones you quotes, in context you might get a different picture.

Take for example Ephesians 6: 5-9

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."

You quotesd Eph 5-7 but not 8 and in particular 9. Did you read on past the verses you found so offensive to see what the rest of the context is. Did you read Ephsians 5 which introduces this whole section with:

"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."

That applies to all Christians in their dealings witheveryone, including masters and slaves. The verses in Ephesians 6 are merely an example of this principle.

Paul here is expanding upon Jesus' command to love your enemies as an example of the love lavished upon you by God. All of this is the context for the statements about slavery.

Or you could have looked at Galatians 3:

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor freemale nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I am not sure that you can get clearer than this. And remember Paul wrote this is an extraordinarily racist, sexists society founded upon the economy of slavery. For his time he was radical (and still is).

You can choose to read bible verses out of context and use them to justify specious arguments but if you want to engage in real debate I encourage you to look further before jumping to conclusions.
Matt | 03.29.06 - 6:31 pm | #