I'm not a fundamentalist in the common usage of the word (i.e. the usage at this blog for instance). However, I believe that the argument from their camp was not that they do not trust science, but rather that they do not trust *bad* science (i.e. data filtered through an anti-Christian worldview). I believe that's what Paul was talking about in the first couple chapters of 1 Corinthinans (i.e. "God has made foolish the wisdom of the wise...").

Wasn't it true that 80 years ago, "science" said that the universe had no beginning? Can you blame "fundamentalists" for not trusting the so-called infallible Magesterium of the Church of Science?

To try to make "Nature" or "Science" a sort-of "67 book of the Bible" (as Hugh Ross asserts) is to go beyond the bounds of the power of empiricism. No one is completely objective, especially scientists. Everyone filters the data through their world-view. To make "Science" on equal par with Scripture or an interpreter of Scripture similar to Roman Catholicism's "Sacred Tradition" is to deny sola Scriptura.

I'm not a YEC or an OEC. I consider myself to be a VCC (very confused creationist) because I'm still trying to make up my mind. However, to accuse YEC's of having "blind-faith" just because they don't bow the knee before “priests in little white coats” is too much. When the latest atheist scientist tells us something contrary to the Christian world-view “ex-Cathedra Darwin”, can you blame fundies for being skeptical and sticking with their faith.

BTW: David,

Have you read David Snoke's "A Biblical Case for an Old Earth" and would you recommend it for someone who is trying to make up their mind?
Saint and Sinner | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 12:57 pm | #

Some of these cases might not be attempts to overcome doubt but might just have been a longing for more information or a desire to have a greater sense of God. I think that was the case with Moses.

It's interesting to look at the reasons Jesus condemns those looking for signs. He was generally talking about those demanding signs because they didn't believe, not those who had an initial sense of belief but wanted more (e.g. "I believe; help me in my unbelief").
Jeremy Pierce | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 1:00 pm | #

I suppose I should add that it's often also because of a desire for the sign itself in a way that ignores what it's a sign of. I think that's as common in John than the other kind of bad motive for asking for signs. I think the synoptics focus more on the first reason I gave.
Jeremy Pierce | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 1:01 pm | #

Hey Dave, can we get that explanation of what's wrong with Dembski's math?
The Lord Jesus Christ | 09.27.06 - 1:17 pm | #

Saint and Sinner

I have not read Snoke's book.

Jeremy

Good point that the request for signs came from unbelievers.

T.L.J.C.

Patience. That must be done with the care of a research paper, not a blog post. I don't know when I'll be ready to go to print. I will want to have my critique reviewed before I publish it in any form.
heddle | 09.27.06 - 1:28 pm | #

Sorry, I'll be more patient.

For years I've seen Dembski, Behe, Wells, etc get the everliving daylights beaten out of their arguments by biologists, physicists, mathematicians, computer scientists, and so on. I've seen the ID movement spend $20,000,000 with no theory, no papers, no experiments, and several legal failures to show for it. Their arguments, to paraphrase something I saw recently, have been knocked out, strangled, driven over, drowned, shot, chainsawed, time of death noted, driven to the morgue, autopsied, released to the family, mentioned in the paper, been to the wake, put in the ground, and given a little headstone.

I'm very interested in seeing if you have uncovered new problems, or barring that, which particular problems you were most struck by.

I will continue to hold my horses.
The Lord Jesus Christ | 09.27.06 - 2:16 pm | #

Well said David. God had the people sanctify (set themselves apart) before going to the mountain. God had Joshua instruct to sanctify themselves again before crossing over the Jordan. Hebrews 11:6; But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. God wants us to know, love, and respect Him. Sounds pretty "open-eyed" to me...
Jon Clayton | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 2:21 pm | #

(Sorry for being off-topic, this is my last post on this thread)

Personally, it takes about half a day to see that ID has been obliterated.
1) Read and understand Behe and Snoke 2004 (time: ~4 hours)
2) Replace the authors' absurdly low population size with real estimates of the # of bacteria on the earth. (time: ~10 minutes)
3) Sit back and realize that Behe and Snoke just proved that a particular Irreducibly Complex structure can evolve at *least* a million times a second. (time: as long as you like)
The Lord Jesus Christ | 09.27.06 - 2:25 pm | #

Francis Schaeffer talks about "Faith versus faith" at the end of "Escape from Reason" - I have posted an extract from his book on my blog here.

As always, I largely agree with you. However, I think you need to be careful about where you go with "example theology" - see "In Pursuit of the Truth" (the book, not the blog) for more about this dangerous exegetical approach!

Let's take Thomas, for one. As you point out, Jesus' words to him were along the lines of "Blessed are you because you have seen and believed. People will be even more blessed if they believe when they haven't seen." To which the obvious next question is - how on earth are we going to do that??! And John immediately provides the answer - "Jesus did many other things .... but these things are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name."

In other words, the whole reason that the story of Doubting Thomas is there in John's gospel is precisely to teach the readers something about faith. It is crucial not to separate verse 29 from verses 30 and 31 - this is the punchline of the whole gospel!!
Paul | Homepage | 09.27.06 - 5:34 pm | #

"Jesus did many other things .... but these things are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name."


Huh.

So it seems the underlying presumption is that because something is written it must somehow be taken seriously simply because it is written.

I suppose back in the days before electricity and flushable toilets, people who could write were admired, respected and trusted simply for having that ability, sort of like people today believe stuff "because they saw it on TV."

I still think the stories about burning in hell for eternity or living in paradise depending on your opinion of the Bible are the bottom line for most of the planet's rubes. In particular, it seems pretty clear that if you can get to a human being when he's a little kid and drill these fears and hopes into them at a young age, you've got a good shot at keeping them in the fold, especially if you can keep them relatively uneducated about other approaches to life.
Altamount Alan | 09.27.06 - 6:20 pm | #

Alan: And you "just know" that, do you?
Paul | Homepage | 09.28.06 - 7:32 am | #

Altamount Alan: If the writing is making certain claims about eternity and mankind, yes it is possibly worth examining its claims. This goes for the Koran, Book of Mormon, etc as well.

Heddle: I agree with your premise, faith is not blind, but is this not an argument against the Calvinist doctrine of salvation? Why issue praise for people doing what they are bound to do? Still, good stuff.
kehrsam | 09.28.06 - 12:19 pm | #

David,
I agree with your understanding of faith. It is never blind, in fact, it is just the opposite. The Holy Spirit awakens us to the goodness and beauty of God's wisdom. Without this work, we are doomed to choose sin and disbelieve God. Satan new this issue was at the center of our relationsihp with God, and so used it to trip up Adam and Eve. The purpose of his primary argument waas to cause them to question the goodness of God's plan for them (Gen 3:4,5). Ultimately, I believe sin is distrust in God or disbelief in His goodness, and righteousness is faith, or trust in His goodness.
In Galatians 1:15 & 16, Paul says that God not only set Him apart "even from my mothers womb", but that He was "pleased to reveal His Son to me that I might preach Him among the Gentiles." John 6:40 says that everyone who "beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life."
Faith involves a beholding of the truth and beauty of God and His wisdom. This trust is reinforced by the truthfulness that is demonstrated in our lives. What he says about man nature, for example, is shown to be true in the world we live in.
Faith allows us to see dimly, but trust because what we can see He is good. This in turn demonstrates to the world how increadibly awsome and good God really is. His wisdom is unmatched! (Eph. 3:8-10)
Josh R | 09.28.06 - 12:44 pm | #

John 10:38

"though you do not believe Me [Jesus], believe my works"
Salvador T. Cordova | 09.29.06 - 2:46 pm | #