As Derek Webb sings in "A King and A Kingdom":
my first allegiance is not to a flag, a country, or a man
my first allegiance is not to democracy or blood
it's to a king & a kingdom
http://www.lyricstime.com/derek-...dom-
lyrics.html
"God and country" is an oxymoron (Matthew 6.24).
No nation could remain if all its citizens dedicated themselves to Christian morality.
"There is another country
I've heard of long ago
most dear to those who love her;
most great to them that know.
We may not count her armies,
we may not see her king;
her fortress is a faithful heart,
her pride all-suffering.
And soul by soul and silently
her wondrous bounds increase;
and her ways are ways of righteousness
and all her paths are peace."
And now I can't see the screen anymore.
Thanks for your comments. I get so tired of the whole "America is a Christian nation" argument. Was it founded on Christian ethics? Yeah. Was it founded as a theocracy? No. Were all, or even most, of the founders Christian? Depends on what you mean by Christian. If you take a narrow, evangelical definition, then no. If you take a broader progressive definition, then yes. But they were "culturally Christian," A phrase that the founders wouldn't even have understood.
I mostly agree with Martin's comment. The answer to the question "Was America founded as a Christian nation?" depends on what one means by "Christian nation." Christian in the sense that Saudi Arabi is an Islamic nation? Certainly not. But founded on Christian ideas and ethics? Yes, definitely.
To me, the "Christian nation" activists are just as wrong as the ACLU / "separation of church and state" zealots. The truth is somewhere in between. I don't believe the founders intended the government to be completely sterile of anything religious; their own writings and actions demonstrates that.
But a special version of the Bible that weaves the Word of God with American History? Icky.
"But founded on Christian ideas and ethics? Yes, definitely."
Well Eric, to quote you, it depends on what you mean by 'Christian ideas and ethics'. If you are correct, I find it odd that the Bible is not mentioned in the Federalist Papers nor was it mentioned as a source for any position in the debates at the constitutional convention. It is abundantly clear that it's far more accurate to say that our nation was founded on Enlightenment ideas than Christian ones (not to imply that those are always in conflict).
I understand what you're saying about the Christian Nation zealots being no more wrong than the separation defenders, but I'll note that I'm not aware of anyone on the separation side propagating false quotes from the founders to attempt to bolster their position, unlike the Christian Nation agitators.
And as soon as I say it, I see someone use a false quote from Jefferson denigrating religion. The number of false quotes on the two sides is not equal though.
That is refreshing to hear, David. There are times when I despair over Christians tangling up their religious faith with patriotism. Like you, I am grateful that I live in country where I am free to believe, share my beliefs and worship. But, like you, I am a citizen of a different kingdom where there is neither Jew nor Greek... To me it's a question of what one really believes.
On a completely unrelated subject, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about Tom Wright's response to his critics in his new book on justification, if you decide to read it.
Christians have clear instructions from the Word of God on how to relate to the authorities the Lord has ordained to govern us. These instructions can be found in numerous passages of Scripture, but I Peter 2:17 is a good summation: “Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.”
Notice that Christians are generally to esteem others better than themselves (Philippians 2:3), but to different degrees, and with different types of deference. All men who are worthy of honor should be honored (Psalm 8:4-5). Other Christians (“the brotherhood”) are to be loved (Ephesians 1:15). Christian love is an active love, a giving love, and a love which carries a sacrifice of self, and a true desire that the recipient of love will grow in Christ-likeness (Hebrews 6:10). The king, or, in modern terms, the high-ranking government official, is to be honored in his office, regardless of personal politics (I Samuel 24:6-
.
The highest esteem – fear – is reserved for God (Matthew 10:2. This encompasses all the other forms of esteem – honor, love, reverence, etc. – and speaks of a very real desire to please a loving Father who wants to give good gifts to His children, but is not overly hesitant to chasten in love. Biblical fear of God is an often misunderstood and unpopular concept in today’s culture, but it is a great comfort for the true believer and lover of the Living Word. After all, the fear of God is both the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10), and the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7).
Dude, You need to like reconnect with reality. Have you heard of reality? It's like the stuff that happens in the real world? It's not like imaginary technicalities about old fairy tale bullsh1t. I hate to be the bearer of bad news or whatever but you're starting to act like a crazy person. Find some smart non-crazy people to reconnect with. Help yourself, Obi Wan. You're your only hope. If not you're going to wind up a jesus-nutter living in a cave babbling about syllogisms or whatever.
T Dogg- dude you need to like be more specific. Have you ever made a speific point or just bolt around a good idea or educated opinion because you have neither both an education or a solid opinion? you have heard of an opinion haven't you- its that idea that pops into your head or heart and a point is made surrounding this idea with facts or specific quotes ideas etc. I hate to be the bearer of bad news or whatever but your sounding a bit like a 12 year old who just kinda types up a bunch of bullsh1t to look like argument but never actually solidifies a personal idea or belief to back all that hot air up. Find some middle schoolers who spend most of there time mocking the smartest, knowledgeable, people in class only to wind up later in life as complet wastes of foreskin and semen and reconnect with them. i'm sure their tele numbers on on the shelf next to your calss of 2006 yearbook. it may be your only hope. if not your going to wind up a testosterone filled frat boy who beats is wife more than his own dick and snowballs his load afterwords or whatever. just my opinion though. I beleive David is right personally.
Commenting by HaloScan
