-- Comment At Your Own Risk --
Interesting concept. I shall ponder it during tonight's run. Welcome back, Diff.. Hell of a way to return, eh?
Thanks Billiam, I'm glad to be back, that hiatus was too long. Look for more posts shortly.
Heavy petting...can and does result in pregnancy!
Heavy petting...can and does result in pregnancy!
Really? Dang, I thought it was from sexual intercourse. I guess I've been lucky up until now.
I may not agree with your theory about how one miracle occured, but I agree with the underlying structure of your theory. I don't think God belies nature, nature is an aspect of his wisdom, so it would be akin to denying himself. Miracles are simply nature we do not, and maybe cannot, understand. Good call, Guido
The question that this leaves is how different were his genetics from his mother's genetics in this case? I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that wholesale reconstruction of genetics is technically as serious of a violation of basic natural biology as Jesus' bodily ascension into heaven would be. However, the laws of the universe are not the same as the revealed Law. God never made a claim that he won't intervene into the workings of the universe.
And for proof of that, I need only cite to you such things as the flood and the pillar of fire that lead the Israelites through the desert.
How about that walking on water thing? That was pretty miraculous. And I have no problem accepting as Lord He can command nature to do his bidding. Granted, He doesn't contradict Himself but ultimately nature's "laws" are subject to his will.
How about that walking on water thing?
That would be pretty hard to find a scientific explanation for. And if you did, would it still be a miracle?
A miracle by definition is a violation of the laws of physics. How did Moses's staff turn into a snake and then back to a staff?
I may not agree with your theory about how one miracle occured, but I agree with the underlying structure of your theory.
Doom, I'm not convinced that my theory on how God created Jesus in the womb of Mary is correct either, just that it was possible to do without violating the laws of physics. It's very likely that I'm dead wrong about the method.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that wholesale reconstruction of genetics is technically as serious of a violation of basic natural biology as Jesus' bodily ascension into heaven would be.
Mike, I see no violation here at all. Every DNA strand contains the building blocks for the entire body. For God to simply "repurpose" a bit of DNA is not a violation of natural laws. If it were, we couldn't do it ourselves and obviously we're at a technological point where we can.
In regards to the bodily ascension of Jesus in to Heaven, there is no violation there either. Jesus along with God is the master of creation. Could there not be some way to manipulate the particles around you in order to fly or as Giraffe suggested, walk on water? And don't forget, Jesus is also a multi-dimensional being, so if he has command of other dimensions, why could he not use that to affect his position relative to the 4 dimensions that we are subject too?
Giraffe, I disagree with your definition of a miracle. I believe a miracle is an occurrence that we can not explain. But, just because we can't explain it, doesn't mean that it violates the laws of physics.
I have a blog post as a response to this lined up for this afternoon when I get off of work. Be prepared >
I have a post up too. (the second half)
Interesting stuff. I'm glad you're posting again, Dif.
I'm not convinced that miracles work in conjunction w/ natural laws, albeit remaining unexplained in the small details.
Take resurrection, for example. Returning a person's spirit to his/her once-deceased & now-rejuvenated body goes beyond nature into the supernatural realm, IMHO.
If God is not part of nature, then there's no reason why He should limit himself to working w/in nature's laws. At least, no reason why He should do so exclusively..
So, if you can explain G-d's miracles that would be sort of, well, miraculous don't you think? 
The Virgin Birth. Do we assume there was no Divine Seed because we can't quantify or understand His method?
300 years ago electricity was the territory of the Divine. The simple fact that we now understand many elements about it and have harnessed its power to suit our needs doesn't make it any less impressive, does it?
Just a couple random thoughts.
You have a good point Heidi, in that it is still good to thank God for all the everyday things as well as the miraculous.
Difster,
I'm still waiting for you to explain how it is not a violation of the law of physics to create a self-sustaining thermal reaction that moves with intelligence and purpose through a path in the desert that strategically leads a large body of people away from many dangers such as the Philistines until they are ready to confront them.
MikeT,
I think you are asking the wrong question. It is not whether a miracle defies nature. It might better be whether God, who created nature, would defy it and so in some aspect deny himself. I don't think God lives and creates as seperate truths. What he creates, he is, or was in the beginning. We chose differently and therefore he parted from us (if he had stayed, he would have destroyed us, being unable to have sin in his presence and being so much more powerful than ourselves).
Just because we have become sinful does not negate the truth of the universe that God created and in which his essence remains. So, his truth remains though he has parted.
I just can't but remember what I have seen chemists do, and thinking how awesome it is. From explosives to plastics to metals. They seem miraculous. Now think what God, who I really believe knows all, can do. Hmmm, miracles or just infinitely better biochemistry and genetics?
Define life. The impetus we have to exist and the drive to continue existing. Beyond usefulness, beyond reason, beyond comprehension.
What or who "jumpstarted" your heart so it could continue to beat for decades, one little spark at a time.
Each individual being is an inexplicable application of Grace.
Does it stand to reason the physical manifestion of an infinite G-d could take the form of something roughly "normal" while completely redefining it to make it "miraculous"?
A column of fire is no big deal. I set a bunch of pine cones on fire the other day. That was a helluva column. Smoke too. Nothing miraculous. Had it left the chimenia(sp) and wandered about the yard as smoke then suddenly turned to fire at night? Well, I would have sold tickets and I wouldn't have to worry about the mortgage... Sorry. Irreverent much?
Is it the fact Christ became wrapped in flesh and dwelt among us that we marvel about or the beauty in a G-d who would animate flesh through His presence.
I don't really care if I'm rehashing or not addressing the topic. I was just enjoying the thought process.
Happy Sunday!
Doom,
Perhaps the universe is just one big quantum computer and God is merely reprogramming it then...
Hey everyone, I am in the midst of preparing a reply/clarification to my position on this.
I have this odd feeling about God. I don't think He thinks, He just is. Maybe His thoughts are creation. I don't even think the universe computes, it just 'does' his will, whether he set it up that way or is still active in it other than via the Christ life and us, I don't know. Christ, and we, have free will, therefore we are active (of course, Christ chose and went forward already, but when he was here, he could have chosen otherwise I think). Animals and plants, even physics, do not have free will.
In short, he said "I AM", and I take Him at his word, while considering the universe His or even part of him.
I hope I'm not digging a hole, but...
Heidi,
That was fun! Do it again! *claps* You could do a curtsy if you wanted to after that.
Difster,
*tapping foot* *cough* *tap*
No pressure. *tap*
*tap*
A curtsy? Just for you Doom.
*deep Southern belle in a hoop skirt curtsy*
Looses balance and falls on ass.
That's why I don't do that very often
So how do you square the miracle of the fish and loaves with the conservation-of-matter principle?
Opiates and mass hypnosis.
I'm a virgin...
Kinda.
Explain THAT
....getting to it. I haven't been home much this weekend. I'll get it done tonight.
Fish? That was Love, not 60's love, not a six pack "I love you, man.", it was real Love, it was the first presentation of the flesh of Christ, albeit in spirit form or the form of spirit. No miracle of creation, we just don't fully understand Love and Christ does (actually, is Love), and that we indeed do not live by bread alone. It was a miracle, but not or ever the type man always seems to insist upon. Christ didn't do hat tricks, real or otherwise.
Heidi,
Yea, ain't that the kicker though On the bright side, it's easier to realize "Why God" when your on your bottom.
Wonder Woman,
Rheeeeaallly now. I'll stop there, that hole is already too deep. Doh! Not THAT one...
Difster,
I was just teasing. Take your time, do it right, and ignore me completely... *tap*
*tap*
C-section, four of them baby cakes, that hole down there is just dandy...and I do mean THAT one
You are Wonder Woman!
"that hole down there is just dandy... and I do mean THAT one"
WOW. That's all I can say to that...
G-d created time but is neither effected by it nor bound to it. He doesn't age and neither does He wait.
How does that figure into your equation?
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