-- Comment At Your Own Risk --
To say that "There's no way God could have done x without violating the laws of physics" is to imply that God is subject to anything. He is not.
As a counterargument, some will argue that "God cannot sin, so there!" as proof that He is somehow limited at times, but the truth of the matter is that his "inability" to sin stems from the fact that He is holy and would never choose to sin, so it's a non-starter.
To suggest that "the laws of nature" (which we barely understand) are somehow above being manipulated or outright changed by the One who created them is to presume to know God's will. He'll do as He pleases, thank you very much, and being familiar with his nature, we can trust that He will do good.
I have a rebuttal for you for tonight. I can tell you right now, that I think you stepped into it big time with your explanation for the Long Day, and I'll tell you why. A body with a gravitational pull strong enough to overpower our sun would most likely end up locking our entire solar system into a death grip, as is seen when a black hole overpowers a star.
Mike, since God is God, he could prevent that.
Mike, my explanation of the long day was merely a suggestion. As I said, I don't claim to undertstand "how" it was done.
Billiam,
The point of the exercise was to show how God could have done the Long Day without violating the laws of physics. Preventing that body from damaging or destroying our solar system would have been a major assault on the law of gravity to say the least...
Mike, what if several gravitational forces converged on one spot at the same time so as to essentially suspend the rotation of the earth around the sun and then pull it back in to proper orbit again after it passed? Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No. Especially not for the Creator.
Remember though, I'm contending that God set up this conditions when he created the universe, so he might not have had to manipulate anything at the time of the event for it to happen.
Proving the miraculous is difficult for science, math, and logic as they have failed to even prove 1+1=2. Are you seriously suggesting God couldn't plan a one-time directed gravitational force for a set period of time while (and I assume you believe this) he constructed the universe? Or that our understanding of science is really so great we could know that? We don't know what the weather is going to be tomorrow, even with Al (co2 and internet provider) Gorge.
As for walking on water, I think there was no manipulation. He just understood what the water really is, what he really is, and it wasn't an issue. The disciple nearly did it as well, remember. No trickery, it's just that this is not the whole of reality. We are just stuck in it, mostly, with our small understandings (and small faith).
I really feel sad that Christ was so alone here. He loved us, but neither could we love him in any true fullness, nor could we even grasp the simple things he did. As the man part, he had to feel lonely in that way at times.
Perhaps Lazurus wasn't resurrected from a several day-old dead body. Since time is just part of the creation, God would merely take Lazurus from a time when he was alive and place him in the tomb.
But God could have just as easily reanimated and patched up the corpse to hold Lazurus' spirit again.
As for an item defying physics, how about the burning bush?
Dif,
I gotta think you may be wrong here.
I would agree that some of the things that were considered miracles may be explained with simple things like earthquakes etc.
But the real proof that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, God in the flesh, was the Ressurection.
Jesus Christ was dead, he bled out water and blood, the heart had stopped pumping and the seperation of the blood was taking place. He was placed in a cold tomb and was there for at least 36 hours(I think more, but what ever).
Yet a dead man rose from the dead of his own power and volition. That is a totally unnatural act, outside of all the know laws of nature. It can not be explained any other way. Therefore, we know that God acted outside the known laws of nature in this one case, we can conclude that he did it on other occasions as well.
That's my opinion anyway.
I don't think our definitions of miracle are the same here.
How, did Moses throw his staff to the ground and it turned to a snake? Any idea how to get a snake from a piece of wood?
Is it beyond conceivable that Jesus was able to take what already existed and reconstitute it and return the life and soul of Lazarus to him without breaking the rules of the universe?
The stumbling block here is this: If Lazarus came back to life because Jesus 'manipulated' the universe in such a way that he came back to life without breaking the laws, then if I were to perform the same manipulations, I could bring people back to life. According to the laws of the universe, when x is manipulated in way y, z must happen. Here, Jesus would only possess knowledge that we don't have, how to do the manipulation. It ceases to be a miracle because anyone can do it if they know how.
Now if you say that I cannot manipulate the universe in such a way, because I am not God, I'll say "DUH!, what are we arguing about?" because you are now claiming God has a SUPERNATURAL ability that I don't have. Supernatural means outside nature.
What is the difference between supernaturally manipulating the universe and breaking the laws of physics?
People who complain about these things also seem to believe emotions and thoughts are nothing but electricity. And even if they are, does that prove or disprove anything? No. All "science" has done is discover functions. Nothing more.
Amigo,
"As for an item defying physics, how about the burning bush?"
What burning bush? It was only described as like a burning bush, as the leaves and branchs were not consumed. If you understand one thing about the Holy Spirit, it's that God is fire as this. That God was present very near the bush is not a defying of physics.
As well, physics is so weak as to often imply that God does not exist. So, calling on a minor skill to define what God can or cannot and will or will not do is just out. In a lesser way, it would be like using simple arithmatic to prove that calculus is incorrect.
farmer Tom,
"Yet a dead man rose from the dead of his own power and volition. That is a totally unnatural act, outside of all the know laws of nature. It can not be explained any other way. Therefore, we know that God acted outside the known laws of nature in this one case, we can conclude that he did it on other occasions as well."
Not so fast, actually, DEATH is unnatural for man and Christ was certainly God and man. Death exists only because of original sin. Christ was sinless, perfect, and showed us what the natural state really is. He can be killed but he can never die. No trick here. When finally cleansed, we too shall know this.
"I'm contending that God set up this conditions when he created the universe" ..that is where ya misunderstood "it" sweet cheeks.
Rethink your contentions, perhaps?
Dif, I blogged on this, as a response to your post.
Hey difster,
As always, you offer provocative food for thought. This sequel to your first blog entry about the natural laws is even more tantalizing than its predecessor.
There are a variety of well-stated viewpoints here. Nevertheless, I'd like to approach the problem from a different angle. My intent is not to derail the discussion from the original theme, but to carry it a bit further by asking a question that I really believe we must ask, if we are to understand Jesus in all of His glory, in His reality as true God and true man. For this purpose, I would like to focus on Lazarus.
So far, I see the discussion as focusing on "WCJD"--"What could Jesus do?" That inquiry invites us to try to understand God (and Jesus as God) by exploring the order we find in the natural world and wrestling with the question of how God could accomplish miracles within a framework of natural laws that embodies order and integrity.
I, on the other hand, would like to assume that God / Jesus could suspend the operation of natural laws in order to work amazing deeds that would tell people something about Him and give them a basis for faith. I see this is as the conclusion derived from a simple syllogism:
Major premise: The creator of natural laws can suspend the operation of those laws, from time to time, without wreaking catastrophe on the universe.
Minor premise: God is the creator of all natural laws.
Conclusion: Therefore, God can suspend the operation of natural laws, from time to time, without wreaking catastrophe on the universe.
Having answered "WCJD" (by the assumptions and syllogism based on them), I suggest we ask the more familiar "WWJD"--"What would Jesus do?" In other words, assuming that Jesus could suspend the operation of natural laws to perform what we commonly call miracles, would He do it?
Would Jesus defy natural laws to raise Lazarus from the dead? Knowing fully that raising Lazarus would mean bringing him back into a world filled with a lot of suffering (including persecution for being a follower of Jesus) and, yes, still another death for poor Lazarus, would Jesus do it? I really don't know.
We could dismiss this concern summarily by saying that God's ways are not our ways and we cannot understand them. That's certainly one legitimate answer, but isn't it really unsatisfying in a conversation that has probed deeply into the operation of natural laws that seem to govern our world?
I've rambled enough about this. Let me close with a link to a description of the raising of Lazarus by Stephen Mitchell. I like it because Mitchell invites us to see a very human Lazarus and a very human Jesus.
http://www.stephenmitchellbooks.com/poetry/
parablesExcerpt06.html
WWJD?
One reason I've heard for the Long Day is that Mars had an orbit a bit closer to us than it is now. Every 107 years or so it would it would get close enough to cause major geographical upheavals, outlined in some of the Psalms. Aound 700 BC it was at its closest and altered the rotational path of both earth and itself, moving the rotation from 360 days to 364 days for the year.
Chuck Missler at http://www.khouse.org has got a few briefing packs that explain the theory a lot better than I can off the top of my head.
So what you're saying is that God moved several bodies so dense that they could overpower the sun, without people being able to notice them? That's stretching it.
A gas giant wouldn't be big enough to overpower the sun. Black holes would have had destructive impacts on our solar system, not to mention the fact that the Earth would have been stuck in a time dilation field, which means that three literal days would have seemed like seconds or three literal rotations of the sun wouldn't have been 24 hours, but rather several million years or such each.
You indicate that God could create something less the perfect, if it was imperfect, he would need to change it. Or, after creating perfectly, He changed His mind. Neither of which seems correct. Science tells me that if the least likely scenario fits the data, that is the one to go with. Religion teaches me that God is perfect and created all as such, in the beginning, and only man has strayed from that as that is what was meant to happen, which indicates the univers is still pefect minus us. I think we just have different views of God and science, and our faith follows what we believe. I have no faith in man's science. I think of it as art which can sometimes be very roughly fit to function but as theory goes, is much like the happy neighbor picture on my fridge the neighbor children drew. Sort of cute, if it weren't thought so sure to be right.
Excellent post, Dif. I get what you are saying.
Did God make laws or did laws make God?
So, which law is God subject to?
What about time?
G-d exists outside of time. He is not bound by it but rather controls it. On the other hand, our lives are captured and encapsulated within time. When He acts, we recognize what we are able to within the scope of our realm without being able to comprehend the scope of His.
He steps into the realm He created for us when He interacts with us and rather a bit like a ringmaster orchestrates events to His choosing. Then He steps back into His realm and does very G-d like things like rule the universe in ways and using methods of which I have not even the teeniest speculation.
How could I say that G-d would restrict Himself to the parameters of our dimension when we can't even glimpse the parameters of His.
Does that sound like esoteric mumbo jumbo to anyone else?
Bear with me. I'm trying to get my head around the concepts.
Religion teaches me that God is perfect and created all as such, in the beginning, and only man has strayed from that as that is what was meant to happen, which indicates the univers is still pefect minus us.
Doom | 05.31.07 - 10:58 pm | #
In Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
When sin entered creation, all of creation was effected bringing into being the entrophy laws. Not only do we did a new heavenly body, but the Bible says there will be a new heaven and earth to replace the corrupted ones.
heidi,
Again, if God created something, would he really, like a watchmaker, need to correct it? Or would he ignore his own creation as a triviality to be toyed with? I dunno, but I believe not. And God surely knows time, even if it means less to him. How else would he be immortal, which means ever-existing but is passively defined by the passage of time.
Mark in OC,
And the angels in heaven cried, but they did not fall (those who fell had already done so). I think not, this only indicates that the universe suffered for our sin, not that it too failed. What you are indicating is that the universe has a will of it's own, and that it joined us in defying God or likewise fell because of our sin. I think that belief is animism, and Christianity defies animism.
I just realized I seem to have taken this thread over. I apologize.
To quote a great 'theologian'
"The mystery is the truth" - Sean Penn
I re-read all the comments and even the post and keep thinking that we are trying to 'figure it all out' and that when we do, we can convince others that there is a God.
Whenever some one or group has it all figured out, then they don't have it anymore.
I do like this discussion, though. Difster, call me again.
When Jesus turned water into very good wine, what happened here?
Let's see, we have large containers full of water. There are water molecules, H20, and a bunch of minerals, assuming it was not distilled water.
Instantly those same containers are now full of wine, which has, among many other things, alcohol, C2H60.
Just considering these two molecules, it seems Jesus pulled off quite an opening act with that first miracle.
But, He did ask them to first fill the containers with water. That's interesting. He could have asked for empty containers and then have the wine appear in them.
He was a bit perturbed that Mary would ask this of Him, but did it anyway. Women!
You could explain this by saying that God can reduce any matter to pure energy (like when Captain Kirk says "Energize" ) and then rearranges it into any other form He wants when He materializes it.
After all, matter is energy. If you knew the secret to converting matter into the most basic form of energy and then instantly re-materializing it into anything you wanted, well, you'd be God.
But then again, Jesus did make things appear out of nothing as described in the feeding of the large crowds from just a few fish and loaves of bread.
Of course, there was plenty of matter around that he could have used to convert into the food. The very air is full of matter. Or, he could simply convert light energy into matter.
We are awash in matter and energy. God knows how to manipulate it. When we try, things blow up!
You could explain this by saying that God can reduce any matter to pure energy and then rearranges it into any other form He wants when He materializes it.
Taylor, I actually hadn't thought of that. It wouldn't break the rules of physics as we know them. It's certainly beyond our technology though.
And it also wouldn't particularly surprise me to know that the air itself contains enough minerals, etc. in it (albeit in low volume) to make bread, wine, people, etc.) The distillation and conversion process would be enormously complex though.
It's certainly beyond our technology though.
Ha! We can't even figure out gravity. I will be really impressed with technology when we can figure out a way to break out of Earth's gravity without using brute force.
Air doesn't need to contain any specific kind of matter. All matter is energy, arranged in different ways. You don't need a distillation process or anything. The end result is the matter that you desire. You could make a wine that appears to be aged 50 years, instantly, just by creating the specific molecules in a 50 year old wine.
Matter is so simple, it's child's play... if you're God.
Wait until we can walk through walls.
If you could vibrate your molecules at a high enough frquency, you could pass through just about any other seemingly solid object.
True. After all molecules are really just empty space with a few little packets of energy spread out over a large area. If I'm mostly empty space, I should be able to walk through walls right now. *bump*
Nope, not yet.
"If you could vibrate your molecules at a high enough frquency"...oh baby can I!
As soon as I hit publish after writing the 'vibrating' comment, I KNEW you were going to have something to say about that :D
If I'm mostly empty space, I should be able to walk through walls right now. *bump*
Nope, not yet.
I think it all depends on the arrangement of that mostly empty space and those little packets of energy, my friend! 
It's all about charge, Roland. You've got to neutralize the charges on your personal electrons and protons. Then you'll be all set to be an extra on X-men.
And be careful you don't have any accidental collisions between your nucleic particles and those of the wall. Wouldn't want any thermonuclear reactions, now, would we?
To say that Lazarus was resurrected by Jesus when he brought him from the tomb would be an incorrect statement. Lazarus was brought back to mortal life whereas to a resurrected body would be a perfected immortal state. The process by which the miracle of life was given back to Lazarus, while beyond our understanding at this time, did not violate any natural laws. The Lord operates within the governing laws of nature perfectly because he is the master of those laws, not because he can break them, which would be contrary to His character.
I need your opinion on this..
I'm certainly no giant...
So little known. So much speculation.
Interesting.
PS. I still prefer vibrating ;-P
Hope all's okay, Difster. You ain't posted for weeks.
WW: stop being such a perv! Unless you have pics of you doing so you're willing to share!
Another angle on this is that Jesus was more real than what was around Him.
The Scripture states that the Temple and such are a shadow of the Real, the Heavenly. When the resurrected Jesus, who is God-made-flesh, impinged upon Earth, it was like a brick meeting the fog. He was more Substantial. After the Resurrection, He was able to move through the door into the upper room, not because He was a Casper, but because He was More Real than the door.
Biblically speaking, the spiritual is more real than the material.
IMO some physics defy the Law of Miracles, or are indistinguishable from it.
Gosh, you've taken a longer break than I did! =P
Give us a sign, Difster.
Great comments.
Hey Dif, check out "The Physics of Christianity".
It's pretty cool... waaay over my head.
You have to understand waves, particles, event horizons...
Still pretty cool.
Bottom line, nobody can 'prove' God.
God always requires that everyone take that 'little step of faith'.
Okay, new blog request form sent in, officially...
NOW!
Dude, you fall off the earth?
At least let us know if your still kicking.
*tap tap tap*
Is this thing on?
*shouting*
Yo DIF!
Being in "play" is the sign they are using one of their tools to prey on large numbers of people. It is the exception rather than the norm but causes far more damage.
34223
The reincarnated can be birthed or sent back as clones.
The gods pushed people into their sins in the 20th century to justify their scripted social deterioration.
90srevelrycyclejustifiedwithclintonlegacy@whychels
eawasbeatenwithanuglystick.com
HTH isn't merely a Jew repellant:::It was also a warning to not get involved in the Situation.
odd1906evil@even2006good.com
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This isn't 1000 people with this power sitting around listening to "key people". This is a corruptor because it contributes to gradiose thoughts among the peasantry which makes it easier to gain compliance when AI asks the disfavored to sabotage their children's lives.
Expect it is no more than the gods and the computer:::No Earthly management, no middle management. To be involved means you are hurting others, and this costs people time, for you are interferring with their quest to reconcile with the gods.
Even if their directive to AI came long ago it doesn't matter:::The buck stops there. That is their technology and they direct it.
The Italian boot proves the gods are in total control and executing their antient script. What you hear in your head is Artificial Intelligence role playing in an attempt to corrupt you. All the elite in this society are fakes, property not people, for it is just the throne and their power in charge. Any claims of middle management are lies because they would be incurring evil by hurting others, and the computer can do EVERYTHING.
Continue reading. This is a phenominally complex environment but I think I illustrate how they conduct their management on 21st century Planet Earth well.
You have to educated and save yourself. YOU are responsible for YOUR relationship with the gods.
You have a goal:::Fix your problems with the gods BEFORE you ascend.
Too many who begin to work on their problems are offered a spot before they accomplish their goal. They go up but are replaced with clones::::Since the dawn of mankind the peasantry are replaced with brained-clones. These newbies believe everything they're told and behave as they were BrainLessCloneHosts::::Since we're so deep into this degenerate age the requests from the gods are similarly degenerate. Compliance in effect casts their blood line into damnation.
The goal is to educate your whole family and try to get everyone out.
It is best to not understand the gods and how they conduct business. If people understood the depth of wickedness and evil the gods are capable of they will use this knowledge and instruct Artificial Intelligence to push it into their consciousness when their head is on the chopping block.
This is going to be a MASSIVE open door, one which will ensure 80% if
I know I'll get a lot of crap for this, but it's completely possible that the Bible is not the literal word of God, merely the written recollection of oral histories handed down and distorted over time. The miracles could have happened in natural ways that got garbled in re-telling, nothing supernatural about them.
Noah's great flood could have been a tidal wave from a meteor or undersea quake. The internal voice telling him to collect animals and build an ark is now called schizophrenia. Maybe Noah got lucky? He was the only survivor - he wrote the history - so naturally he comes out the hero.
The bush that looked like it was burning but not consumed is a Sumac. Ever see one in a shaft of sunlight, at the peak of color? Blinding.
Raising Lazarus by laying on hands was the first recorded instance of CPR (he'd been dead for minutes, no, hours, no days - days, I tell you, Three Whole Days!).
Joshua's horn was tuned to exactly the right frequency to loosen the morter between ill-fitting stones and the walls fell down like a soprano breaking a wineglass.
Or maybe Arthur Clarke was right: a sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, or from a miracle.
Removing water from a jub and replacing it with wine; adding loaves and fishes to baskets; vanishing from a locked tomb; these would be possible with Star Trek technology (the transporter or the food thing that provides "Tea, Earl Grey, Hot"). Okay, so we don't presently know how to do it. 50 years ago, we didn't know how to Skype, either. Doesn't make it a miracle.
Sadly, this plays into the Von Danniken idea of ancient astronauts, since where else could Christ get the advanced technology?
But the old song may have some relevence to this discussion: "The things that you're liable, to read in the Bible, it ain't necessarily so."
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