Please stay on topic. Please don't be asses.
looks like mccain's got the "superstitious primitives" demo locked down.
The questions were mostly set-up as t-ball type for McCain also. The only tricky one was what is the "When did you morally fail", and McCain just sort of swatted that off saying "my first marriage" without elaboration.
But is Obama the antichrist? CNN will get to the bottom of it.
I think it was a good night for Obama despite the clear (and sheeplike) preference for McCain. I mean, offshore drilling getting a huge ovation?
Still, I appreciate the fact that we have a candidate who can play the other side's game and do well. I would prefer that we weren't at this place in our country, but since we are, I'd get a lot of satisfaction out of Obama's drawing some of the "base" away.
What a sham this is turning into. I was naive-- I thought Warren would be OK.
Notice how Warren was nervously rushing Obama through the questions, even joking about the 'cut' sign? But with McCain, he poses the question, tosses off an alternate answer or two, then sits backs and nods his head as M' gives his stump speech.
And that audience? Hoochi-city. What a bunch of cougars. Obama made a big mistake showing up-- and watch, the MSM will make fun of him for it.
"We remain the most unusual experiment in history ... freedom, rah rah rah." Except if liberty and privacy conflict with vague threats to national security, in which case, it's time to sacrifice your freedom for security.
"I'd get a lot of satisfaction out of Obama's drawing some of the "base" away."
He won't. Obama is the clear loser-- all this did is legitimize a huge campaign rally for McCain.
Big, big tactical mistake for O'. There's obviously some major wailing and lamentation going on right now in the campaign tonight-- this has been a DISASTER.
And who prepped McCain?
Obama f'd up big time by going to this sham event.
He's going to have to start playing hardball now. It's the only way-- no more 'deliberation," no more "studied" anything.
See-- the MSM is already cheering McCain.
This will be seen as the turning point. What a disaster for the Dems. Who was NOT THINKING over there? Didn't they KNOW this would happen?
When you go to bed with the devil, you'd better be ready to f*ck. And Obama wasn't.
This was not Obama's natural constituency, and I admire him for going into the lion's den. I think he had nothing to lose with the conservative evangelical community; most of them weren't predisposed to vote his way, and if he made some of them think, that's all to the good.
And I propose that all evangelicals are not identical, and there is a clear line between the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell crowd and Rick Warren. Those Christians who take seriously the words of Jesus when he says to love thy enemies, help the poor, judge not, and all those Sunday-school platitudes that have been scorned by the Dick Cheney wing of the GOP-- those Christians should be seriously considering their allegiance to the Republican party. I don't see at all how Obama hurt himself tonight.
...I really have to wonder whether this "outreach" is really going to add up to anything.
Digby
Wonder no more.
Pastor Rick's "civil forum" is going to "add up" to a John McCain win in November -- he "made the sale" tonight with evangelicals who are looking for reasons to vote for him.
Needless to say, I support Barack Obama and plan to vote for him in November.
And I eagerly await being pleasantly surprised on election night -- but, alas, I dont' think so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
UPDATE:
Obama is royally pissed. CNN just did an after-event interview with him, and commented that they'd never seen him this way before.
No wonder-- he knows he was used tonight. Because of his appearance, McCain got a nationally televised hour-long commercial, with a cheering squad, and prompted answers from the host.
And did anyone else notice this-- HuffPo did-- that McCain asked "when are we getting back to the Supreme Court question" when it HADN'T EVEN BEEN ASKED OF HIM YET?
But, it had of Obama.
This is war, and I think the O campaign has finally realized it. There's going to be major soul-searching there tonight. Good.
I'm of the same mind as Jim. What was the purpose of Obama's attending this? To show political courage?
He's already done that, by campaigning hard, and winning the democratic nomination for president.
As for the crowd loving the "offshore drilling" bullshit; that was a given. It's an article of faith with the mouthbreathers that george bush has NO responsibility for the reaming we're getting at the gas pump, but instead, it's all the fault of the commie "greens" in congress, for not letting Exxon-Mobile and the rest of big-oil gang-bang the environment to their heart's (and their portfolio's) content.
Will we see Obama and Mcbush at a town-hall meeting in the "town" of MoveOn.Org?
Obama is continuing to fart around with the idea that sucking up to the flat-earth society is to his and our political advantage. It's bull$hit, he needs to start believing that the american people will know the truth if he speaks it courageously and honestly, and he needs to stop triangulating for conservative votes.
That way lies disaster.
Ask Hillary.
"I think he had nothing to lose with the conservative evangelical community; most of them weren't predisposed to vote his way, and if he made some of them think, that's all to the good."
Problem is, by showing up, Obama got all the MSM there in real time. Because it turned into a slanted McCain rally instead, that's disastrous for O. If he hadn't shown up, M' wouldn't have gotten the coverage.
Worse, the spin will be that Obama "lost" tonight. Net result? A 4 or 5 point decline in the polls by next week.
Bad move for O' and he knows it-- you should have seen how angry he was later on.
That was some Pastor-baiting.
I don't know who Jim Carlile is, but what a worry wart. No evangelicals were ever going to vote for Obama. They are hate-filled souls who are fodder for slick frauds like Rick Warren. If evangelicals like McCain, why should anyone else.
People, if Americans are still convinced that hateful selfishness and mindless belligerence are the way to go, then they're convinced, and we just sit back and wait for our national collapse. Work for Obama if you're worried. Otherwise, stop fretting. It's useless.
" . . . no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
The Constitution of the United States
Article VI
Sigh.
Rick Warren's the best of the bunch. The problem is, it's not just the evangelicals. This 'debate' got mucho exposure, and Obama LOST it!
The spin on this will be horrible. McCain got a huge televised rally where everyone says he was "the best I've ever seen him,", and Obama ends up looking like Dukakis II.
Jim: re: Obama's being pissed...
WTF did he think was going to happen?
These are the true-believers with the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who were no threat to us, including 4100-plus of our troops, hanging around their necks, as well as the tanking of our economy.
They don't give a shit about accuracy and truth. In fact, at this point, they fucking HATE it, and anyone who talks about it, except in the twisted context of their warped worldview.
For him to show up at this snake-twirler dog-and-pony show, was one more I'm-reaching-out-to-them fuckup. Obama should not even be SEEN with John McCain. He needs to run against bush, AND his joined-at- the-brain Siamese twin, McBush.
This is getting depressing. I'm hoping that Obama is just saving his ammo for after the convention, but while he's doing it, he just needs to put one foot in front of the other and hold steady, not suck up to the right.
John McCain should be an irrelevance to this election. Obama has made the right decision to do no more than the three debates with him, and he should bring a screeching halt to being on the same stage with him.
No mas.
well, that sound like a nasty way to spend an evening. Not sure what anyone saw in it in the first place. But there probably was a good reason. It's done now.
The time has come perhaps for the team to get it's act together and take on the right wing machine. The infighting has been over for some time now. Let's get on with it.
No whining, and no rise colored glasses I would say. And perhaps a teeny correction on the old right leaning mechanism to ease up a bit....
The Sunday gasbags should have a lot to say anyway.
The mindset of the Evangelical community is based on fear and fear alone. Fear of going to hell, fear of being persecuted as Christians, fear of people who are not like them and who don't believe what they do, and fear of being disobedient to god's word in the Bible. This translates into fear of gays, fear of Muslims (who equal terrorists), and fear of anyone who wants to allow people to make their own decisions about their bodies. These people will never, ever, ever vote for Obama. McCain was questionable in their minds (they were all Huck supporters) but now that he uttered the sought after words "pro-life President" he is golden. That's all they ever wanted and now he's handed it to them. Good for Obama for walking into the proverbial lions den, but he never had a chance. And now we have the gushing and adoration from the MSM and their so-called "expert analysts" (right wing Evangelicals like Tony Perkins and that clown from the CBN). It's a McCain love fest and Obama didn't need it. Obama is running this campaign based on hope; McCain on fear.
Regarding McCain's question about a question that wasn't asked yet:
Was it my imagination, but didn't M' ask Warren about "getting back to the Supreme Court question" when the topic had only come up with Obama?
A couple people on HuffPo noticed this too. If so, why was M referencing an Obama question that he hadn't been asked yet?
Someone I was watching this with suggested that McCain might have had someone listening and prepping him, or that he came "late" and that's why he wasn't up there at the start, as promised.
I said that if so, he'd f' up and reveal it.
Did he?
This was a HUGE mistake by the Obama people. What's going to come out of this? Lots of soundbites for McCain and none for Obama. More "arrogance" stories about how Obama thinks he's so goddamn smart he can run America. And the sight of lots of people cheering the prospect of more oil drilling, thus making it look like a massively popular position being thwarted by Democratic obstructionists.
And if the Obama people didn't see this coming, they are STUPID. You don't win the culture war with love-ins. It's time to abandon idiots like Amy Sullivan and realize that these people do not want to see Democrats taking them seriously. They want to see their prejudices validated. And they sure got that tomight.
Warren is one of the very few evangelical 'leaders' who isn't a completely transparent huckster or outright loony. Still not good IMO, but significantly less bad.
McCain got his airtime and softball questions. The pander to Orange County evangelicals was pretty pure on his part, so no surprise the audience loved him.
But I don't think Obama's real audience were the 'congregants' in the first place. He even said it himself, he is trying to become better 'known'. On that I think he succeeded somewhat and participating in the forum wasn't a cut-and-dried mistake.
Obama is fighting against smears, lies, and rumors about him being everything from a wild-eyed black militant to the antichrist.
BTW: Anyone else notice how Obama's answers almost all included reasoning why, and McCain (when not talking about being a POW over and over) mostly just went for the black and white simplicity. The forum did actually elucidate 'spiritual maturity'.
To Jim Carlile and everyone else who thinks Obama lost big tonight: what would the score have been if he had declined to show up, and McCain had the entire forum to himself? If you think that's Obama's path to victory, I gotta disagree, pal.
"what would the score have been if he had declined to show up, and McCain had the entire forum to himself?"
First of all, it wouldn't have been televised as broadly, if at all.
Second, it would have been seen as a typical red-meat assembly-- big whoop.
But by showing up at this 'townhall' Obama validated and promoted the proceedings-- and they were stacked against him-- which is actually a surprise. I didn't think it would be this bad.
Obama was furious tonight afterwards-- he used the harshest language in response to a question or two from CNN. He knows he was used and worse, he was broadsided about it.
All next week the MSM will be calling this the 'McCain miracle' or similar, and they'll be talking about how foolish it was for O' to show up.
what would the score have been if he had declined to show up, and McCain had the entire forum to himself? If you think that's Obama's path to victory, I gotta disagree, pal.
Respectfully disagree. There would have been no reason to cover it. BO's participation proved the foil, the launchpad, if you will.
If Obama really wants to give me hope, he'll stop giving McCain any chance to look good.
That was some Pastor-baiting.
Can't stop laughing ...
Again:
Did anyone else hear McCain ask Warren about "can we get back to the Supreme Court question?" when there hadn't been any?
I walked out of the room just prior to that, and figured I'd missed some discussion, but others on HuffPo noticed the same thing.
Why was McCain referencing a question that only OBAMA had been asked?
They'll try to say something like, 'well, question doesn't mean a real question, but the general question of our Court' or some other such excuse, but what's going on here?
I think McCain blew the fact that he knew at least some of the questions beforehand-- he's that dumb.
Obama's pissed. GODD! I'm pissed at him.
His gay marriage answer was disgusting. Leave it to the states? Does he have a fucking clue where "States Rights" would have put his pathetic black ass?
Oh and he says it's all right for Bill and I ( a couple since 1971) to visit each other in the hospital. Well isn't that special? Thanks for the seat at the back of the bus, motherfucker!
This is a good thread. Thanks, Digs.
And we, and Obama, are on some kind of a cusp. I'm beginning to think that he is naive enough to think that the people who have supported bush, and whom are STILL supporting him in their desperation, are good-hearted, deep down. And that he can somehow win them over.
He is mistaken.
In this campaign, they will spit on him, play the race card, and smear him and the democrats in any way they can.
There has been no election since Hoover in which the repubilicans were so vulnerable to an ass-whipping, but Obama has to be wise about it. He can't fritter this pre-convention dead-space away by moving to the right. And after the convention, he needs to become a ravenous 15 foot great white, with lots of juicy, bleeding, republican "seals" for the shredding. :o)
There are WAY enough voters of both democratic and independent stripe who will respond to some honest outrage at what bush and the goopers have done to us, to provide the tsunami that we need.
THAT is where his energy should go. Not to the futile chase for disaffected conservative votes. There IS no disaffection deep enough to make them support him. And chasing them only gives them the opportunity to paint him as another unprincipled political chameleon. It's a Gore/Kerry plan for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
If John McCain should, by some miracle, win this election, THEN and only then will they have a kind word for his being the first "colored" candidate for preznint.
Both sides know that everything is riding on this election. If McCain wins, the corporate 4th reich that bush has done so much to implement, will become a fait accompli. The congress, even with some modest pickup of democrats, will not change from the rubber stamp it has been for the past 7 and a half years. Worst of all, the older knee-jerks on the Supreme Court will delightedly retire, so that McCain can pack the court with younger and even more conservative justices.
If Obama wins, his coattails will be long enough to preclude filibusters and obstructionist tactics from the GOP residue in congress and the Senate.
Of course it will mean that the older wingers on the court will stay on and rot in their robes, like Rehnquist, but when they go, so will the Alpine Redoubt for the hateful, idiotic, philosophy that they have helped protect for all these years.
This one is for all the marbles, boys and girls. They know it, and we know it.
In fact, they are so shit-their-pants-scared of seeing their little conservative house of cards come tumbling down, that I am sure, in their hearts and their minds, that the last alternative, that the fatal solution will happen and that someone will kill Obama, is an unspoken-but-acceptable act to "save" amurka from librul socialism.
That's how badly they want to win this. And Obama MUST realize it. The war in Iraq is the metaphor for all that they hold dear. And the fact that there is not going to be a happy ending for it, is what is driving bush and they, to use our military to try to string this out long enough to get out of town, so that if the democrats do sweep in with big margins, THEY can be blamed for the denouement of bush's bloody soap opera.
Well; sorry for the long rant. I might just have said, as Jim did:
It's a war; we have to win it.
And at this point, I'm not at all sure that Obama yet understands that. If not, he needs to, and soon.
Just saw Obama taking questions at Saddleback. At first, I was going to say I was happy to see him being truthful, forthright, expressing himself in a nuanced way.
But then I'm reminded of the story of Josh White testifying to the HUAC. Obama meant well--and did quite well, by my personal reckoning. But I believe he'll get screwed anyway. I could be wrong, but I still think the evangelical vote is fairly monolithic, Warren's protestations notwithstanding. Furthermore, the evangelical vote is still largely triggered by Pavlovian code language; not by circumspection, sagacity, or even humor.
I heard the comment, though I didn't immediately think that he had been given the questions. It's possible, I suppose, that he got a quick briefing between the end of Obama's Q&A and his; perhaps this will come out.
I agree that this was not a great forum for Obama, but perhaps this will be a wake-up call for him and his staff. There is still time to recover, though he will have to do better than he did tonight in the debates. Americans don't do "nuance" well...
Those Christians who take seriously the words of Jesus when he says to love thy enemies, help the poor...
...out of those who attend Saddleback, could fit into a phone booth.
This is I'm-so-special Club Christianity, and specifically denigrates good works in favor of feel-good tribalism.
Fuck these flat-earth war-torture-authoritarianism Xtian phonies eager to be exploited by their big-strong-daddy party who appeases them with superstition and feel-good prejudice, who feeds them a shit sandwich while they idiot-grin and ask for seconds.
If Obama's pissed, maybe he'll stop the mealy-mouthed lets-all-come-together rhetoric and trying to triangulate support from these mouth-breathing bigots. You don't come together with the party of Delay, Gingrich, Cheney, Kristol and Kkkarl Rove.
Start shouting the truth to the country about what eight years of Repig wrecking crew has done to the the bottom 99% of the country, and start tying McCain to Bush/Cheney. Nobody with any fractional chance of voting Dem likes the Chimp.
Wow, plenty of comments saying that Obama got rolled, and how it's just not fair how he got treated by the evangelicals.
One could almost forget -- and one would certainly not be reminded by any of the comments above -- about Obama's incredibly cynical use of the "ex-gay" preacher Donnie McClurkin in order to carve out a tactically important win in South Carolina, and help put away Hillary Clinton. McClurkin is one of those loonballs who thinks that the Bible and reparative therapy will "cure" the "disorder" of being GLBT.
Remember that McClurkin was pulled from the schedule after news of his having been booked first got out to the gay community, and that he was then very deliberately put right back on when it was deemed important by Obama to get more black evangelical support.
In the course of which effort, I would note, McClurkin got up on stage AT AN OBAMA CAMPAIGN RALLY and tearfully related how he had been "saved from the sin of homosexuality by the love of Jesus".
From which there was not a single word of demurral or dissent to be heard from The One.
Trying to play the evangelical community is a double-edged sword. Obama, after using it on a rival, just got cut up and hamstrung by it himself. Cry me a river.
--
Obama's gonna lose.
And deserve to.
Yeah, Kerry Lite. That's what America's desperate for. Another big fucking PUSSY scared to death of Karl Rove.
That Obama even made this appearance is appalling on at least sixteen different levels of disturbingly stupid.
I actually did have high hopes.
But if this shit keeps up, I swear to god it's gonna be McKinney for me.
Everybody was watching Michael Phelps swim in the Olympics and tomorrow that's all anybody will talk about. Obama could have ripped the head off of a live bat and ate it and it wouldn't have mattered. Cable TV news is losing it's ability to shape events and the wire stories don't look bad. If anything the stories reinforce that McCain opposes abortion and Obama supports choice. That's a win for Obama.
AP: McCain, Obama split on abortion
Getting McCain's view on abortion reported is good for Obama.
Blergh.
Obama shouldn't have ever gone to this thing, and I'll tell you why.
Church is the last place in America where it's OK, nay, encouraged, to discriminate against people. Women are told to be second class citizens. We know what is said about GLBT persons. And woe be unto you if you happen to be a member of a minority religious sect, even a disaffected Mormon like myself. Why you don't worship the right Jesus and are going straight to hell.
That's why Obama should never have gone to Saddleback church.
I wanna see Obama do some pandering to us atheists. Screw those Inquisition-Christian types. Half those buttholes still think he's a muslim.
It's not a worldview, it's a faction - a tribe. As long as McCain is identifiable as a member of the tribe, his actual policy positions make little difference and reversals are not held against him. The "religion" actually practiced by right-wing extremists has little relation to the teachings of Christ - it's just something to set the tribe members from outsiders.
Obama could be targeting religious blacks in the South and elsewhere, whose votes he may need. I doubt if he really expects to win over hard-core whites whose bigotry is both religious and racial.
An obvious point: who the fuck was watching? Who the fuck is going to see highlights? Even if McCain turns the footage into ads overnight, this will be as stale as last month's bread by convention time.
That makes me wonder why Obama bothered, but it also makes me think this is going to be as stale as two-week-dead fish by the time the conventions start. A small group of Rick Warren fansgot to see that Obama wasn't Scary Muslim Mandingo. The big picture? Everyone else was watching Michael Phelps.
But if this shit keeps up, I swear to god it's gonna be McKinney for me.
I'm sure your noseless face will feel truly spited.
Lots of soundbites for McCain and none for Obama.
Dunno. That Rich=$5M McCain "joke" will come back to haunt him in a few ads. Even FOX said it was a "cringeworthy" moment for his campaign.
And who prepped McCain?
Jim Carlile | 08.16.08 - 9:55 pm | #
John McCain required no special "prep" for Pastor Rick's Faith-O-Rama tonight. He simply pulled the political playbook of George W. Bush -- which was inspired by Lee Atwater and written by Karl Rove -- off the shelf, dusted it off, and recited it verbatim, taking time only to deviate for self-serving "war-hero" tales.
Does anyone capable of an ounce of critical thought really believe that the North Vietnamese gave their captive POWs the "choice" of when they preferred to be released?
McCain would have us believe that his North Vietnamese captors were so courtly and deferential -- and so in awe of the American military and the hierarchy of its officer corps -- that they offered him early release because he was an admiral's son. Wouldn't the fact that he was an admiral's son make McCain that much more valuable as a prized captive? If only for propaganda purposes?
Apparently, the North Vietnamese were playing by Marquis of Queensberry rules -- who knew?
Sadly, too many Americans are incapable of critical thought these days and they will line up in droves to vote for the man who has vowed, if elected, to defeat evil.
Barack Obama, on the other hand, declared that evil couldn't be defeated in the world -- "That's God's task" -- although we do get to be "soldiers" in the battle. And he would confront evil with humility. To evangelical ears those sound like the words of the Anti-Christ ready to "negotiate" with evil!
Where did Obama ever get the idea that he could perform such a spectacular suck-up to Rick Warren's boiler-plate evangelical audience and somehow manage to be successful? Maybe there is a wee bit of hubris within the Obama campaign.
The fact is that no one does fake-piety and blustering-fake outrage and mawkish-fake nobility better than John McCain -- he's even better at it than Bush!
Finally, if McCain has the know-how and the zeal to follow Osama bin Laden to the "gates of hell" and bring him to justice -- as he claims in every stump speech -- why has he been holding back for the past seven years?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sharkbabe's disappointment is understandable, but pseudonymous in nc's caution bears remembering.
We will see lots more of this shit from Obama. A vote for McKinney is not "the same as" a vote for McCain in
that it doesn't put Obama down by one AND McCain up by one at the same time.
But it would bring Obama down by one and thereby weaken his vote total by that one. And the difference between Obama and McCain would be between a so-so President who somewhat leaves me
partway alone as against a vicious madman who is in my face screaming every day. Every less-than-fully-effective vote against McCain is a less-than-fully-effective vote against
political poison gas in all the political air vents of American society. And since I don't have my positive-pressure HEPA-filtered political-economic fortress-of-survival ready; I will vote the most effectively I can aGAINST McCain. However much uninspired shit Obama keeps wading around in.
(Unless Obama picks Lieberman or Zell Miller as his VP. Even I have a limit).
"Where did Obama ever get the idea that he could perform such a spectacular suck-up to Rick Warren's boiler-plate evangelical audience and somehow manage to be successful"
I don't think the problem is that Obama went or that it backfired on him. I think what happened is that it actually-- before our eyes-- turned into a setup, a promo opportunity for McCain, sanctioned by Obama's presence.
It proves that these people don't play fair-- an eye opener for the O' cammpaign, I think. Maybe they'll realize that now "it's time for hardball..."
No more Mr. Nice Guy, or Dukakis II?
BTW-- a quick review of the 'evidence'--- McCain's "are we going to get back at that issue of Supreme Court Justices" had no predecessor question-- but for Obama's earlier one.
This reader wonders why your blog is in his newsreader. Surely you are overstating your observations of this event. I do know that I shall continue to list you in my reader as I have other 'idiots' listed there. Since you are sitting in front of a computer look the word up. I think you will find that it deals more with the 'id' and subsequently maturation, not intelligence. However, maturation may play a role in intelligence.
turned into a setup, a promo opportunity for McCain, sanctioned by Obama's presence.
If you hold a promo and no-one's there (or no-one cares) does it matter? Pretty much everyone's enjoying a holiday from the presidential race.
If you're a politics junkie, it's easy not to see the forest for the trees. If this were October, it would be significant. It's August, and it's not.
Fuck these flat-earth war-torture-authoritarianism Xtian phonies eager to be exploited by their big-strong-daddy party who appeases them with superstition and feel-good prejudice, who feeds them a shit sandwich while they idiot-grin and ask for seconds.
What that guy said.
Jim Carlile | 08.17.08 - 1:31 am | #
Of course it was a setup, and Obama and his top campaign staff should have seen it coming all the way from outer space! Hence, they shouldn't be surprised or "pissed" at the outcome, as some have suggested.
Why else were Cindy McCain and Huckleberry Graham seated prominently in the audience where the camera could move in more than once for lingering close-ups of their enraptured faces? Cindy's eyes were positively glistening with tears of joy!
I thought McCain had dispatched his "Ambassadors" Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman to Georgia to help him solve the Russo-Georgian crisis -- what gives?
Did it not occur to anyone in the Obama campaign that it just might be a good idea to have Michelle Obama accompany her husband for the purpose of gazing at him adoringly during this evangelical extravaganza? If only to demonstrate the "sanctity" of their marriage? Or is Michelle still too radioactive for that crowd?
The cable news channels are going to run with endless clips of the Pastor Rick Show all next week -- Pastor Rick is scheduled to be on Larry King on Monday! -- complete with fawning praise for McCain's "straight talk" about his "faith" and concern-troll commentary about Obama's halting, tentative, nuanced, intellectual (read "elitist") responses, and they will milk it for more than it's worth -- depend on it.
Still, the high point for me was Pastor Rick's question on "evil" -- multiple choice, no less! -- that was indeed a classic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"This reader wonders why your blog is in his newsreader."
I'm wondering why it's in there too, Jack.
OTB...here is something to cheer people up.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonl...8416/570/
568960
Jack Alexander: what are you talking about? This is a FINE thread. Very necessary. Very relevant to what's going on in the campaign.
Right now, my 2c, Digby and her writers are putting up the best stuff on the 'net. More solid threads dealing with the nuts-and-bolts of this election than anywhere else.
What is Obama doing? What is he thinking? A lot of us are worried that he and his "braintrust" are making the same mistake that Hillary made in the primary race: thinking that the path to political success in the general lies in trying to convince conservatives and independents that his policies and beliefs put him in some kind of "center-right" position that they can be comfortable with.
It's horrible. And it's politically stupid.
He doesn't have to come out in favor of nationalizing big oil, but by chasing after conservative support, he's increasingly looking like just another political whore, and if he drops into that character, the voters will make him pay for it, in spades.
Hell, the progressives will make him pay for it. No candidate can be all things to all the people. His identity by now should have been clearly defined: Antiwar; anti NEW war; pro-choice; pro-environment; pro-accountability for the corporations who helped bush spy on us; in favor of progressive tax reforms, instead of the REgressive taxes that bush has laid on us...
.
Every time he weakens his antiwar, anti-surge stance, he's saying that he thinks "we're winning" in Iraq; e.g.: the notion of paying the Sunni insurgents and some Shiite militias that million bucks a day to lay off of our troops is NOT like paying the mob protection money, and the question of what happens after you stop paying isn't worth asking.
Every time he soft-pedals his criticism of McCain for his unequivocal support of the shitmire, he's saying that he thinks the Kurds will willingly become part of "greater Iraq" and abandon their lust for an independent state, and that the Shiites in Basra who are demanding the same kind of autonomy that the Kurds already have in their three provinces, are going to drop that issue, and will voluntarily keep giving the central government in Baghdad a big cut of that 85% of Iraq's oil that is in and around Basra, without the pressure from an occupying force to keep them doing it.
He had a chance to point out that Georgia started the violence in South Ossetia, and to point out that there ARE no "good guys" in that mess. He could have added that the Georgian troops who mounted the bloody, unprovoked, attack on South Ossetia 10 days ago were supplied with american arms and training, and that bush gave them $150 million in "security" aide between 2004 and 2006, and that bush bears some of the blame for the war there.
At a time when he should be busting his ass to set himself apart from McBush, he's spending a lot of time "me-tooing".
Again, it's a prescription for disaster. He badly needs to re-establish himself as the courageous, intelligent, candidate who created such excitement in the primaries. Anything else will cost he, and us, votes and seats, and maybe, the white house itself, in this election.
...it's a"'worldview" and McCain is the one who shares it, not Obama.
McCain's a nihilist. He has no worldview apart from whatever will get him elected.
The reason Obama will never get the evangelicals' support has nothing to do with Obama; they simply believe that all Democrats are closet communists. Better to elect somebody who believes in nothing.
Who believed that Rick Warren was anything less than another evangelical con man making fools of his followers and laughing all the way to the bank. "World view" my rump. What world view is that? The one that accepts torture? The one that desires fascism over a democratic republic? The one that includes delusional sadistic control freaks seeking to impose their insanity on the world?
The problem with making progressives pay for it, is that the "it" is John McCain and four more years for the neo-fascists to take over completely.
I suppose if one truly hates America his best bet is to vote for McCain. I don't believe that the race is as close as the polls indicate.
There isn't anything wrong with Obama that isn't also wrong with McCain, but Obama has more that is right.
When will both candidates realize that they are listening to the same advisors whose only purpose is to turn them into tools?
When will both candidates realize that they are listening to the same advisors whose only purpose is to turn them into tools?
They knowthey're tools! But they're well-paid tools, and they get to strut around like they're leader of the free world or something. They're more interested in power than dignity, anyway.
If you feel that your dignity is important, then politics isn't the profession for you...
Massive. Waste. Of. Time.
WTF???? Right now, I see the Obama campaign in August as a study in how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Makes me leery of his coming VP pick.
Is Obama channeling Kerry AND Gore? Christ! Pun definitely intended.
Social conservatism is basically the fear of change as I can't really believe all those people really think their lives are perfect and all is needed is to keep their functioning, balanced life for many years to come
Warren is only a newer slicker version of the same old same old--pick your guy: Falwell, Robertson, Swagert, Graham even. I was disappointed to hear NPR fall for him the other day with a long interview. Any so called Christian running a multi-thousand member mega church is a slick businessman, by definition. And I would imagine that on the whole, Obama made a small mistake in given Warren status by doing the event. It does say that Obama is trying to "reach out," which can't be all bad.
The cable news channels are going to run with endless clips of the Pastor Rick Show all next week -- Pastor Rick is scheduled to be on Larry King on Monday!
Well, that'll be good for the 300,000 Warren fans who tune in. And tuned in last night. In case you hadn't checked, the fracking Olympics are on MSNBC during the day. Even political junkies are taking a break from the day-to-day campaign bullshit.
Sheesh. Whole lotta Chicken Littles here.
$500 - $2000 a ticket for a presidential debate in a not-for-profit church.
I haven't gotten to HUFFPO in my blog reading rotation yet but happy to see above that SOMEONE else noticed that McSHAME made that slip about the judges question...and if our MSM continues this morning to PUMP up McSHAME on his "performance" in this set up to PUNK Obama last night...we are more screwed than I thought!!! Silly me, of course they will...Obama (as many Dems are) is too trusting and willing to believe in the inherent good in people...while the REPUGS judge everyone as potentially evil and in need of correction. I agree that last night became a FREE HOUR LONG COMMERCIAL for McSHAME who was not cautioned to use HIS stump speech answers...but the most disturbing thing is the confidence with which Warren and company pulled this off thinking NO ONE would notice...and as it concerns our MSM they were correct!!!
I wasn't very hopeful goingin that this would be an Obama-friendly event.
Warren, after all, for all of this year's bi-partisan posturing, essentially endorsed the GOP in 2004 and encouraged others to do likewise. He may be feigning a more equitable approach because the political winds have shifted. But my guess is if you scratch much below the surface, he's Pat Robertson with a goatee.
Maybe it's because I've been around longer, but if Warren offered me the deal Obama took I would have told him to fuck himself, in a healthy Christian way. I don't accept invites to a sting from any con men, especially grifters draped in religion.
Did I understand this correctly? The church "added" a ticket price of $500-$2000 each, due to demand? And surprise, "demand" was so high, no non-congregants got in?
I am worried that Obama doesn't know the difference between Christian and the Christo/industri/military complex.
the right-wing evangelical portion of the US is supposed to be cracking. The young are concerned with the environment and poverty. This Rick Warren character is supposed to be a "different" evangelical in comparison to the Jerry Fallwell types. He's reportedly more relevant to the young and their concerns.
Really?
No questions about the environment, or poverty in America. None. Just questions like who is rich in America, give us a number. [How dare you tax our wealthy churchgoers, that would mean less money for us.]
Just right-wing hard-line questions, so McCain could be snarky, smart ass, cocky and confident.
am with mandolin wind, why up yonder thread...there is nothing more to say about this, other then we have breached yet another constitutional main stay, and it was achieved without the help of our congress!
As a non-religious person, I saw no point in watching this faith-based nonsense. I can't imagine that anybody would choose to watch it over the Olympics anyway. Will be interesting to see what kind of ratings it got.
Are we so used to the pre-selected audiences of Bush's staged public events that we think a candidate cannot appear before any audience unless it is wildly enthusiastic for him?
Obama is going to need to appear before some skeptical audiences or he is not going to reach anyone not already convinced of his merit. Preaching to the converted is a waste of time, except in the sense that it strengthens their commitment on get-out-the-vote day. Expecting adoration from every audience makes Obama supporters look narcissistic, something that will rub off on the candidate's own image eventually.
Obama's appearance made clear that he will pander to all religions equally, and that was his main purpose there.
The book "True Enough" discusses psychological tests which show that people who have a slight belief in something, when exposed to more information, have their original belief strengthened. So, for example, if you leaned slightly toward Obama before hearing more about him, then after hearing more about him your support will be stronger. But if you leaned toward McCain, and heard the same thing, then your support of McCain would be stronger AFTER LISTENING ONLY TO OBAMA. So it is unlikely that many minds were changed.
Obama has to stop with this 'bringing the country together' bs. I'm tired of pandering to these loons, who wouldn't know decent policy-making if it beat them over the head repeatedly with a bat two cubits long.
Bush ran and rules through 'divide and conquer'. He's president for the rich and the nutjobs........ not for all of America. It's time to turn the tables. Obama needs to get out there and run as president for the rest of us.
A Festivus for the Rest of US, if you will.
Last night was a disaster for Obama.
McCain was playing to a friendly audience, one abortion sound bite will be played relentlessly (Obama's "above my pay grade" vs. McCain's "at conception"), and on top of it all, Obama is being criticized in today's N.Y. Times for being long-winded.
All the old memes are back.
Not looking good.
Don't post often here but couldn't resist this morning due to the inordinate amount of Chicken Littling going on. For those who didn't watch the forum and are reading these posts and concluding that Obama sat onstage and drooled, the following:
*Obama was great. He was Daniel in the lion's den, for sure, but he came across as thoughtful, smart, and, yes, Christian. He was gaffe-free and a study in grace under pressure.
*For those second-guessing the Obama campaign's strategy, remember that approximately 10-12% of Americans actually believe Obama is a Muslim. This forum made it clear: if there was a Christian on that stage, it was Obama. This was clearly the reason they agreed to the forum. And it was enough of a reason. In my opinion he completely disarmed the Muslim right-wing talking point - and now there is video to prove it.
*Obama elucidated liberal positions in a way that I found not only impressive but astonishing. He made liberals seem not only reasonable but necessary. And I disagree with the poster above who went after him on the gay marriage issue. I thought his response did more for the rights of gap couples than any Democrat has done in decades (remember, it was the Clintons who gave the nation DOMA). He did this by artfully illuminating that no marriage is in any way diminished by civil unions.
*Since it is inevitable that these things are "scored" in the MSM (and, apparently in blogs like these), I would say McCain had a "Reagan" win. That is, he wins more points simply by not making an ass out of himself. And, if you didn't watch, all he did was regurgitate his stump speeches, say "my friends" about 1000 times, and tell a bunch of "jokes" that everyone has heard already. His "win" was also solidified by the fact that the audience was on his side and cheered every word he said, including and and the. But that was to be expected. And it takes nothing away from the fact that the Obama campaign achieved exactly what it set out to achieve: removing the scary from Obama in front of a skeptical audience.
So ease up on the vapors. If this is a "turning point," it is only because this was the first event where both candidates appeared on the same stage. Let's see if McCain has the guts to attend a Move On forum.
I tried to watch. When Obama was describing his faith in Jesus Christ, I started to gag and returned to watching the Olympics.
Yeah, as if heiress-marryin' McCain's 'anything more than $5m makes you rich' isn't heading to an advert near you.
Concern trolls and faux PUMAs have latched onto this blog like leeches.
Pseudo in NC: You can be critical of him and still intend to vote for him. He is definitely the lesser of two evils.
My point was aimed further upthread, jen f.
Who, exactly, is going to watch Pastor Beardy's campaign forum on an Olympic night in the summer? Take away the small percentage of political junkies and there's your audience. People who may not think Obama's a Scary Muslim, but whose friends and family might.
Bush ran and rules through 'divide and conquer'.
And Bush campaigned first as a 'compassionate conservative'. Campaigns are run within this ideological framework. You will not get an atheism forum. You won't get a science forum, for that matter. It's shite. But it is what it is.
"Chicken Little's", my ass!
The most relevant fact about Obama's willingness to debate geography with McCain, and to do it in front of the flat-earth society, is not who got the applause, or how many voters watched it:
It's the fact that he and his "braintrust" were willing to do it at all. He no more needs to do this than he needs to be contributing some of the funds we've given him, to the George Bush Presidential Library in Slingshit, Texas.
He needs NOT to be doing it. For the simple fucking reasons:
It doesn't get him any votes with the kneejerks who are responsible for putting goatboy in office, and who will do anything to avoid taking the responsibility for doing it.
It doesn't get him any help in the MSM; only unspoken but still present scorn, for being stupid enough to do it.
There will be NO credit accruing to him for periodically offering up his political ass to the bushturds for a ritual flaying, in the hope that it will somehow lessen their paranoia about a candidate who, way back in 2002, had the courage and smarts to pronounce bush's catastrophic invasion of Iraq for what it was (as Hillary voted for it) and whom, 3 weeks ago, called it the worst foreign-policy decision in our modern history.
They fear the intelligence and character that he showed in the primary campaign as he derailed the Clinton coronation express that so many asshats like Limbaugh and Coulter, etc., were counting on for a lifeboat to save them from a political massacre.
THAT is the kind of campaigning that he needs to be doing, and he doesn't need John McCain to do it.
Every single time he twitches to the right, and starts with the "nuanced" bullshit, it erodes his identity as a candidate who, most of all, has been accurate about what a fuckup it was to go into Iraq. And that accuracy, and the willingness to speak it, is what has set him apart from most of the politicians in the country. If he waffles on it, and on the other core issues for democrats, it won't be the republicans nailing him to the wall for being a political chameleon; it'll be himself, doing it.
And appearing before snake-twirlers-r-us, wasn't just a waffle, it was an IHOP franchise.
I stopped sending him money a while back. I'd like to start again, but not if he keeps doing HIS version of the same armpit-sniffing photo-op with McCain, that McCain bestowed on bush.
He's smarter than this. We know he is. He needs to stop hiding it from the voters. Much more of it, and he will turn a potential landslide into
a cliffhanger to go to the tender mercies of that 5-4 majority on the Supreme Court.
"Campaigns are run within this ideological framework"
For the democrats, LOSING campaigns are run within it.
Pseudon, you're flacking the Gore/Kerry plan to us.
My 2c...NOT interested.
We don't need an atheist's townhall; we just need a candidate who, in an election year when we are mired in two unwinnable wars, and our economy is tanking, is not grovelling and pissing himself like a puppy seeking approval from an owner who's been beating him for the past 7 and a half years.
It makes it even worse if nobody was watching. That means the pundits will be free to spout every one of their usual anti-Democratic talking points while praising McCain to the skies. Thus the narrative is set, and the race becomes forceful, strong McCain vs. nuanced, pandering, arrogant Obama. Every article is written from this premise, all through the campaign. This is the way that Gore and Kerry were killed.
I too have been worried about the direction the Obama campaign is going. This lurch to the right as soon as Hillary was dispatched has been very upsetting. It's like they suddenly stopped understanding how to work the media and started using the usual Democratic playbook, Milquetoast 101. They HAVE to be smarter than this. They MUST understand that the media is looking for any silly reason to tear them down, and they have to stop providing them with reasons.
Sophronia gets both ears and the tail.
Ole! :o)
Let me tell you something, my friends. My wife just donated $25 (because we make somewhat less than 5 million a year) to Obama, & we couldn't care less about a personal saviour.
Yes, it worries me that Obama is so concerned with trying to win a red state to prove his "I'll be president of all the states" bonifides that he is willing to get rolled doing the red state kabuki dance at events like this.
Did he forget why he won the primary?
I had hoped that taking a week off would help him get his head back into the game.
And yes, I know the conventional wisdom is that if he can win a red state, then he will win the election. I still think that carrying a red state will be an uphill battle for him, and certainly won't be the result of a Clintonian triangulation strategy. The way for Democrats to win the red states is via economic populism. And if somehow he does squeak into office via the red state pander platform, he will be at the mercy of the blue dogs and their republican enablers. Bleh...
nepat:
"Obama was great. He was Daniel in the lion's den, for sure, but he came across as thoughtful, smart, and, yes, Christian. He was gaffe-free and a study in grace under pressure."
This was my impression as well. (stayed up way too late east coast time to watch the reruns.) McCain was being given T-Ball questions. In many cases he didn't answer the question being asked, and in others he answered with anecdotes and stump-speech material.
His most direct answers, paraphrased:
(a) he ended his first marriage very poorly (b) he is a certifiable anti-abortion zealot.
True, and True.
Obama tried to answer every question as posed (in my recollection), and for him the questions were more dodgeball than T-Ball.
McCain will have problems with any debate where the moderator insists on answers to the questions, or if the media chooses to notice unanswered debate questions.
Agree with others however that shorter answers are best. A politician who is able to speak in complete coherent paragraphs, shouldn't make a practice of it with general audiences. Doing it a few times just to make clear to everyone the differences in abilities is fine. Obama & staff need to cut the flab out of the talking points.
I don't think the problem is that Obama went or that it backfired on him. I think what happened is that it actually-- before our eyes-- turned into a setup, a promo opportunity for McCain, sanctioned by Obama's presence.
Jim,
I think that's a great observation. Pretty much everything I saw leading up to this about this pastor and his congregation pointed to a church that leaned moderate/ right. The pastor went out of his way to say they'd be objective. Clearly that was bullshit and he was carrying water for the Republican party. Big surprise there.
Well, that'll be good for the 300,000 Warren fans who tune in. And tuned in last night. In case you hadn't checked, the fracking Olympics are on MSNBC during the day. Even political junkies are taking a break from the day-to-day campaign bullshit.
My 0.02: Rick Warren's book, The Purpose Driven Life, has sold more than 40 million copies. People in many churches in the South and other places used it for Bible Study. I know this...my own home church in Nashville, TN used it, as well as other churches as it was advertised on their bulletin boards. Even liberal thinkers that I thought would see through his BS have the book in their house. Orca...I mean Oprah endorsed him. This event was a huge deal because it was a way to show the people in the potential "swing states" in the South that McCain is their man.
I think this was one time that no one would have blamed Obama for taking a pass.
Nepat is right.Yyou all need to chill out. Go read Frank Rich, then look at the electoral count projections at pollster.com. Bottom line, McC can win every one of the toss-up states and still lose the election. Obama must know that, and his strategy, whether we agree with it or not, is not unreasonable. Those blue states are not going to flip. He's being candid when he says he wants to be president of all states. When Larry King asked "How do you counter the accusations that you are a secret Muslim", Obama openly said "By going on shows like yours and taking every opportunity I have to say I'm a christian".
This "move to the centre" (read: move to the right) campaign has lost elections for Democrats since at least 1972. I don't know why they keep doing it. It doesn't work. You lose progressive votes, you don't pick up right-wingnuts' votes, and you show everyone that you have no principles and will say and do anything to get elected. Way to go, 'Crats!
One of my favorite passages in the New Testament is the one in Matthew that Obama talked about. Every Christian watching knows the verses - and had you looked at the faces when Obama spoke, you would have seen the love on their faces - yes, McCain got the loudest applause for a couple of his "profound" statements. And he got vigorous nods for "drilling offshore" by some.
Obama moved me, impressed me with his thoughtful consideration of others. Obama is ready to be President. I think Warren helped Obama and I also think he likes and respects him. He did show age differential to McCain - and you know what? I did not mind because of the setting it was in.
Obama is going to win the election and it will not be close!
Bill Arnold: and everything that you praised Obama for means jackshit to those assholes in the audience, and to the repubicans AND to the media covering Obama's ongoing cheek-spread.
Except, a lot of conservatives and media are wondering: "Just how much of the bullshit "nuances" will he talk, trying to suck up to us?" And thinking, spot-on, "if he keeps doing this, along about late October, we'll see the same old victory-into-defeat alchemy, all over again. Let's squeeze him."
Again: He doesn't NEED to offer his ass for a sacrificial hiding by, of all people, the 28% peckerheads who think that Saddam was REALLY responsible for 9-11. All he needs to do is keep speaking the simple, straightforward, truth:
That george bush and John McBush and the GOP are responsible for the debacle(s) in Iraq and Afghanistan; for our economy tanking; for gas prices that are 36% higher than they were a year ago; that milk costs $4 a gallon; that, using any yardstick of logic, we are NOT "winning" in Iraq.
If he does that, it will isolate McCain and the core-republicans who think that women shouldn't have the right of choice, and that Jesus and Mary rode into Bethlehem on a Stegosaurus. And he won't even have to confront them in person to do it.
McCain is the one who can give this country what it sorely needs.
A way to leave the War on Iraq and the War on Terror behind with no accountability and no accounting, no responsibility, recriminations and no obligations to those ungrateful Iraquis. Obama cannot, even if only from self-preservation ("Obama stole the victory from us, Obama lost Iraq"), and self-defense.
McCain will provide the healing balm of Caucasian brinksmanship to ease us away, at least psychologically if not in real terms, from Iraq and the War on Terror.
Hey, how long before McCain says we can harrass Russia by arming and training Russia's restive Moslem populations? You know, mujahadeen, "freedom fighters"?
I think it's already happenening.
Good-bye Iraq! Good-bye, Terror! Gosh, we hardly knew ya!
Of course, if Obama didn't show, he'd have major campaign problems. It's unfortunate that presidential candidates in this country have to attend forums and answer questions reassuring an influential part of the electorate about their faith. They're running for president, not pope, ayatollah or chief rabbi.
Liberal Curmudgeon, ther is no such thing as a "chief Rabbi" (Oh yes, some Rabbis may have job seniority at there synagogue, that's not what I am talking about.
To imply that there is a central Jewish hierachy, which dispenses doctrine and policy from the head of the organisation down, is to traffic in anti-semetic stereotypes.
Judaism is not centralised. Zionism is not a Jewish religious program, it is embraced by only those Jews who choose to do so.
What does it say about Obama when he could not be bothered to attend the ScienceDebate2008 offered to the candidates, but attends this event hosted by a bigot who has an anti-gay agenda?
I am beyond disgusted with the Dem party and Obama's campaign.
Forget Evangelicals and go for actual Christians...if you can find any.
You know, the Jesus who said to give all your wealth to the poor and follw him. Who said the meek will inherit the earth. That the rich have as much change of getting into heaven as a camel going through the eye of the needle.
Or how about this one: Love your neighbor as yourself. (Haven't meet a single right-winger who believes in that..."religious" or not.)
No such thing as a "Chief Rabbi"?
http://www.chiefrabbi.org/histor...story/
past.html
http://ec.europa.eu/
commission_b...20080604_en.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Rabbi
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7593
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/
re...flections.shtml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/
200...israel.religion
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,2...8-
29277,00.html
http://74.52.200.226/~sefarad/lm.../lm/046/
17.html
No such thing as a Chief Rabbi? Google begs to differ.
CNN=Christian News Network.
Give us 7 days, and we'll give you the world...
"It makes it even worse if nobody was watching. That means the pundits will be free to spout every one of their usual anti-Democratic talking points while praising McCain to the skies. Thus the narrative is set, and the race becomes forceful, strong McCain vs. nuanced, pandering, arrogant Obama. Every article is written from this premise, all through the campaign."
Exactly-- that's what happened-- it wasn't really his fault, this time-- but it turned into a setup, a McCain rally validated by Obama's presence, one that made it into the big leagues and give it big-time exposure.
So the MSM theme now is that, at the starting gate, Obama = pondering and reflective, a little obtuse; and McCain = the forceful winner.
It was a bad first-start that should never be repeated.
Mooser, McCain may SAY that about harassing Russia by arming separatist Muslims, but if he ever was in a position to do it, and DID do it, Iran would have access to nearly every hi-tech war-toy that Russia possesses, including those S-300 anti-aircraft multiple targeting batteries, which give the pentagon and Israel, nightmares when they think about them.
I would LOVE for Obama to open up a REAL discussion on Russia, and what we can and cannot do to influence them.
At this point, there is not a whole lot of either one. The reason Europe won't jump with both feet into bush's agit-prop bullshit is that they need Russia's oil and natural gas, and that big pipeline going through Russia to the Turkish port of Ceyhan, to be loaded onto western oil tankers, is one fat, juicy, target-of-opportunity. In fact, I think the Russians have already hit it enough to close it down, as a little "heads up!" to Europe.
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