You can do this for the majority of Orthodox customs. Religions don't fall from the sky fully formed, you know.
So instead, let's bring back to the true tradition of Jewish practice: animal sacrifice. It's the largest section in the Torah, after all. Oh wait, damn, even that comes from the pagan cultures the ancient Israelites were part of.
Try again: Let's find something, anything, that is authentically originally Jewish. No points for citing myth.
western civilization? authentic & jewish at the core.
Eliyahu, Just all of Western Civilation? Let's try to think big.
DB: You miss the point. The point is that the idea of costumes for purim makes sense - it works with the theme of purim - of venahapoch hu and of things being the opposite of what they seem. And it works with the merrymaking that is part of the purim holiday - the drinking, the seuda and etc.
Drowning out haman's name with noise (and writing his name on the soles of ones shoes which ppl still did when i was a kid and here and there oldtimers still do today) also makes sense as a ritual associated with purim.
the idea is that jews adapted culture to suit their own religion.
now sometimes the rituals enter with no adaptation - no real jewish content and it's mostly secular with some trumped up kabbalistic reason to go along with it.
But these rituals are all directly incorporated into the theme of purim - they aren't just copycat rituals. So what's the problem with discovering that nonjews dress up too? This is like saying that american kids wear batman costumes and they
got that from tv, and buy them from stores that sell overstock of halloween costumes. who cares - the issue is WHY they wear on the purim.
They go to the store and specifically seek out the costume for a whole new Jewish purpose.
Do you expect people to create rituals without any input from teh wider culture? Where do you think Jewish food comes from? Jews live in countries with goyim - they take their holiday foods and adapt them to their own holidays - so we land up with the braided breads goyim served on sundays adorning our tables as challah on shabbos. With a twist - our challah is always parve, and their braided loaves are often milchig. SO????
Why does this surprise you? Where are they supposed to get their foods from - use ingredients that *aren't* from the country they live in, and aren't available locally, and aren't adapted to the culinary equipment they have available?
Mis-nagid, of course western civilization. jewish law and religion is at its core. sure, paul grafted christianity on to jewish law and practice. but the base is still there, otherwise why would there be a debate over public display of the commendments?
and you're not giving any points for myth? you could seriously disminish your fun that way.
Anon, you're right and we're saying the same thing... up to a point.
You *seem* to be saying that these rituals were chosen deliberately and purposefully. I am saying they first found their way into our culture, and only after Jews had accepted them, were reasons manufactured.
DB -- You had a lot of facts re: costumes, so I can't seriously debate you on that matter (an admission of sorts). Still, I maintain my position that the Jews have been around for a pretty long time, during which, we've been pretty influential.
Can't we follow the logic that we've done quite a bit of trendsetting ourselves? And that maybe your 'retro-reasoning' argument is a stealth attempt to diminish the stature of Jewish influence?
(you ought to read Arnold Fine in the Jewish Press, he's got this angle going on that the Jews invented everything)
Oh, Arnold Fine disagrees with me? Well, that settles it [eye roll.]
Jews have certainly been influential, and we can talk about that later if you like. But there's no denying that we've borrowed, too.
i should hope so...how else can you explain p'cha (gross!)
Dovbear is sucking all the fun out of Purim. I bet he just sits on the floor in a corner at home for the holiday.
Sniff
Some people find this fun.
see this now for a great shabbos!
http://www.thekotel.org/cameras.asp
Amshi, Check your link; I see a bunch of people talking to a wall.
Mis-nagid the ingathering of a beaten people to a once great and mighty country of theirs has with it some emotional value,even on a historic level,that EVEN you can appreciate.
still Lovin You the Kookian way.
Try again: Let's find something, anything, that is authentically originally Jewish. No points for citing myth.
How about guilt or maybe Gefilte fish?
uniquely jewish, eh, mis-nagid? thanks for the link, amshi, good shabbos.
Oh and the concept of "Hamish" as a qualitative judgement.
Shirfa, you mean i should feel guilty for not liking gefilte fish? maybe the bris would meet mis-nagid's rules.
Let's find something, anything, that is authentically originally Jewish
That is easy BRIS MILAH.-Rambam Moreh N.
"OUCH!" said the goy when he heard what we do before the bagels and lox.
I'll answer my own question: the Torah. Its authors certainly were influenced by earlier works, but it's readily apparent that it's a much better work than the other works of that era. And not just better, different. For whatever reason, the authors exhibited a more historical/realisitic impulse. For example, they portrayed their heroes as flawed, which was a break from traditional sacred literature. It's not perfect, but in many ways it was a real breakthrough; the first successfull attempt to do something even akin to what we understand as history. It was original, and Jewish.
No, circumcision is older than Judaism. That's why the authors had to include in the Joseph legend a "Jewish" Origin for why the Egyptians practiced it.
i thought you ruled out myth
Mis-nagid In your opinion who banged the 'Big-Bang'?
and as i recall, you believe there's a lot of myth in the torah.
Wow, Mis-Nagid, that was almost...almost...
Anyway good call.
If we Jews have one thing to call our own it should be the torah.
"No, circumcision is older than Judaism"
Ok ok ok but Metziza BePeh is all ours,right?
So? I didn't say one of the stories in the Torah, but the Torah itself. It's a Jewish creation that is original.
Amshi, you can keep it.
i believe that proves my argument for western civilization.
-Amshi, you can keep it.
Are we back to MJ jokes?
Shifra, almost what? 
I really like the Torah, and enjoy studying it. The Torah is a tremndously impressive work, worthy of study. It doesn't need myths about its origins to make it great. If anything, it shows a lack of respect for it by staining it with lies. I have a far greater appreiation for it now then when I did when I was in Yeshiva, being taught it with the genre mistake.
Missy,
AMSHINOVER | Homepage | 03.18.05 - 11:48 am was a serious question for you.
Amshi, it's totally off-topic.
Yes I know, but off the topic is my forté.
*ahem* Forte, from the French, no accent, one syllable, meaning one's strong point. Forte, from the Italian, is two syllables (still no accent) but is used only in the context of music to mean "play loudly."
Arguably, Amshi, either definition fits for you, but you still don't use the accent. 
Uniquely ours? How about MONOTHEISM?
I think that's the ultimate jewish gift to the world. That and yiddish humor.
"I think that's the ultimate jewish gift to the world."-Dober,Voltaire agreed with you (sort of),he felt that the worst thing the jews did to the gentile, was to yoke him with god(guilt?).The mighty warrior now had icons to fiddle with,christianity was the bane of the gentile.In a way he was right,the church could not exterminate the jews the way a godless german could.
BTW,REREAD:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obido...6261736-
5454537
The church made Hitler's job easier. And if there had been no church there would have been no Hitler.
i'm not sure you're properly attributing that idea. Are you sure it was Volitaire? how about a cite?
Voltaire agreed with you (sort of),he felt that the worst thing the jews did to the gentile, was to yoke him with god(guilt?).
The yoke of the commandments doesn't follow inevitably from the idea that there is one God. You can believe in God without believing in a revelation.
The church made Hitler's job easier. And if there had been no church there would have been no Hitler
True,but they could only lead him a godless man was needed to go all the way.Yes it was Voltaire sorry no time to find the exact cite try again monday,gut shabbos BTW how was the gornish cholent last night.
Amshi, could you have picked a more inappropriate post (asking for prayers on behalf of a sick relative) to respond to me? Not to mention that your response proved nothing except that I'm right...the accent was incorrect.
"I am saying they first found their way into our culture, and only after Jews had accepted them, were reasons manufactured."
This is true for some- eg upsherin.
Not true for others. EG the first person who baked challah made it for shabbos. the first person who used noisemakers as graggers for haman had the reason we have today in hand. the first person who dressed up for purim thought it was in keeping with the merrymaking spirit and someone else objected and someone else said it's v'nahapoch hu. presto, minhag.
you're being indiscriminate
I'm being indiscriminate? I'm writing a blog, you dope, not a scholarly essay. I can't be expected to clarify and hedge every statement I make for the purpose of guarding against every possible rediculous objection someone might raise.
Anyway, do you REALLY think your statment is something I'd disagree with? Based on what?
No, the early Israelites (including the authors of the Torah) were not monotheistic, not is the Torah a monotheistic document (or did you not notice?). They were henotheistic and monolatrist. There were monotheisms before Judaism, including one in Egypt. So monotheism is not originally Jewish.
please, for those of us who don't know a dictionary, henotheistic & monlatrist?
Misnaged:
Dude, that's just wrong. You were on a roll, making effective points both historical and theological, and then you go and lose big points for throwing in the spelling bee words when you could have just said "basically polytheistic" and gotten your point across without being pretentious. Usually I just watch the group hijinks in silence, but I'm feeling ornery today.
Although, I did enjoy the metzitzah bapeh joke.
Carry on.
Dash, I didn't think of those as hard words. In retrospect, you're correct.
Henotheistic = there are many gods, but one high & supreme G_d. Monolatrist = a type of henotheism. Many gods exist, but these gods can exert their power only on those who worship them. thanks for inspiring me to learn something, Mis-nagid.
If monotheism is almost universally accepted, you have the Jews to thank for that. Though it may not be an originally Jewish idea, it's certainly one of Judaism gifts to the world.
Gift? It's a superstition. I can make up any number of gods you like.
thanks for bringing the Shekkinah back for Shabbos.
Back to the topic of erasing h*m*n's name: DB, you tried to outdo your previous fun trivia post, and this one is just not as fun.
Specifically, booing, clapping, knocking, stamping on things are all sufficiently cross-cultural/intuitive concepts that don't need a christian custom to originate. If I *really* wanted to suck the fun out of this discussion, I would talk about Jungian archetypes, but I won't. Well, maybe on my own blog
As far as groggers -- i suspect it was someone's business idea, good marketing, and a bunch of suckers who started *that* minhag.
"Anyway, do you REALLY think your statment is something I'd disagree with? Based on what?"
Based on that you think you're saying something new ...
Based on that you think you're saying something new ...
Where do you get that from? Are you even paying attention? Or are you just stupid?
How did you manage to miss that I QUOTED TWO SOURCES? So why would I think it was "something new?"
Jeez, someone find this idiot a tutor.
clock test
What an absurdity.. The Jews stole the idea from the christians who used it to blot out the name of people they hate, and both presumably stole the idea from some unnamed "ancients".
Hmmmm... where did the ancients get the idea from?
Why can't we all accept that making noise to drown out the name of someone you dislike just makes sense?
It makes sense, sure, but it can still be borrowed.
Borrowing requires unique possesion by one, which is then transfered to another. There is nothing all that novel about blotting out someones name by making noise or stomping on his name. Its like saying we borrowed the idea of prayer - absurd.
Even if there were people praying before we were (which is not true if you accept the Torah account) you can't borrow an idea that is a logical and obvious extension of the acceptance of a G-d who controls events and who cares about His people.
Like I said, borrowing requires unique possesion by one, which is then transfered to another. In the context of an idea that would mean a novel concept, something for which you could claim intellectual discovery.
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