Thank you DovBear!
In my (limited) experience of women's prayer groups, mostly at Kehillat Yedidyah in Jerusalem, we rejoin the men after the Torah reading is over and share the kiddush with them - which doesn't include cholent, in my experience.
But then I'm not a fan of the kind of cholent one gets in shul after davening, in any case....
I've never gone the women's prayer group route, because I much prefer attending services with my husband and kids. In our congregation, we all sit together. I like being able to hold the kids' hands and give them a bracha on Friday night in shul.
For myself, there isn't much value in separating women off from the rest of the family. I would be lonely. But, as long as Orthodoxy holds firm to the mechitza, Orthodox congregations are never going to be "family-friendly". So maybe a women's prayer group is an alternative to actually being included in the minyan. (Even my 75-year old, old-school Orthodox father now feels that families should be allowed to sit together in shul.)
I've been asked more than once now to lead prayers at my congregation. I always turn it down. My background and upbringing did not include any training on how to be a Shaliach Tzibur. The Bat Mitzvah girls do a much better job than I could ever do. This is a result, and limitation, of my Orthodox upbringing. Maybe someday I will learn how to lead prayers, but it isn't on my priority list right now.
But you asked about food.... And I have no answer, but I like cholent.
Our (brand-spanking-new, non-shul-affiliated) WPG meets ony Friday nights, so everyone is going home to dinner. Should we ever do a Shabbat morning dealie, and shoudl a big kiddush be in order, I'm sure we'll manage to procure some kugel and cholent...but the truth is that we'd be more likely to join up with family/friends after davening anyway.
On a bit of a tangent, Mirty, I can totally see why sitting with one's family during shul is a wonderful thing, but ont he flip side I can also see why a mechitza (ideally an equal-access one) is a good way to foster inclusion and a sense of community. Have you ever been That Single Person walking into a room full of couples? Or, even worse, The Widow or The Single Father at a big family-oriented event? Separating out men and women (in a primiarily heterosexual environment, of course) has the advantage of removing the coupled/non-coupled barrier, at least temporarily, and often results in social interactions that otherwise wouldn't have taken place.
>>Orthodox congregations are never going to be "family-friendly". >Orthodox congregations are never going to be "family-friendly".
aahh haloscan messed up my post
So rewrite it dear henry, dear henry, rewrite it dear henry, rewrite it.
(with what shall I write it)
(Your !@&#(@ fingers dear henry)
That's a good point about the single people. One Friday night, the mother of a friend of mine sat next to me, and I held her hand during the "Yiverach'cha" instead. (She is a widow.)
very strange, I tried again but the same thing happened again
Mirty wrote, "Orthodox congregations are never going to be "family-friendly."
Hahahahahaha! Thanks for a good laugh!
What do I even need to argue with you guys for, about made up services, feminist feel-good do-it-yourself prayers and all of that?
In fifty years most of the Jews in the country will be Orthodox Jews.
For one simple reason. We have children. We WANT children. We--and by "we" I mean Orthodox women--do not view ourselves as being held back from accomplishing our life's goals by pregnancy and child-rearing.
Our life's goal IS pregnancy and child-rearing! We WANT to bring more Jews into the world! We actually think that what we do is EVEN MORE IMPORTANT than what men do!
We value women in a way that women are never valued in a world that considers "men" to be the norm and "women" to be a group of people who really want to be men.
You take hagbah, Miriam. Enjoy it. Let me know when you grow a beard.
We have husbands, children, normal lives, and the future.
However, even though I can't help feeling joyful and optimistic when I consider the growth of Orthodox communities in America, at the same time I also feel sad about all the well-meaning Jewish women who think they are doing the right thing and are really messing up their lives.
I'm happy to see the non-Orthodox MOVEMENTS destroying themselves, but I am very UN-happy and distressed to see non-Orthodox JEWS dooming themselves to lives of frustration and unhappiness, and taking themselves out of the current of Jewish eternity.
Maybe you can't understand my disdain for the heterodox movements while I feel sorrow and compassion for heterodox Jews.
Well, try this thought experiment. Imagine how you would feel if there were a lot of Jews converting to Christianity. How would you feel about those lost Jews? How would you feel about the churches that enticed them in?
Oh wait, there ARE a lot of Jews converting to Christianity! And do you know why? Because the Reform rabbis have no qualms about doing interfaith marriages and then the kids go to church with Grandma!
So how do you feel about those Jews? How do you feel about the tree in Grandma's living room with all the glittering decorations and the presents underneath? That's how I feel about Reform and Conservative rabbis who offer fools' gold instead of the real thing.
"Orthodox congregations are never going to be "family-friendly."
Priceless!
Toby Katz, you had three tries with haloscan to get it right. And yet, you got it so terribly wrong.
I am not abashed to say I am not a feminist. (Don't hate me, girls).
But I am truly disgusted with the tone of your comment.
"You take hagbah, Miriam. Enjoy it. Let me know when you grow a beard.
...I also feel sad about all the well-meaning Jewish women who think they are doing the right thing and are really messing up their lives."
Ugh.
Toby, let me tell you something. The phrase "we have husbands, children, normal lives and the future.." is the most superior-sounding phrase I've seen you use, I think. And that's saying a lot. Not everyone does have a husband, children, or a "normal life", whatever that means. And who in the world do you mean when you say "we"? I can tell you right now, I don't daven in a WPG, but please don't count me in when you say "we". I wouldn't want to be a part of your perfect "normal life". If it makes me sound like you, COUNT ME OUT.
The phrase "we have husbands, children, normal lives and the future.." is the most superior-sounding phrase I've seen you use, I think. And that's saying a lot. Not everyone does have a husband, children, or a "normal life", whatever that means. --orthomom
You are correct that even in Orthodox circles not everyone is married and not everyone has children. I myself was married for eleven years before I had children, so I know that nothing comes easy, and there are no guarantees of anything. All that I meant was that Orthodox women value marriage and children. And so for that reason, they are more likely to be married and to have children -- many children. My intention was clear from the context.
Mirty claimed that Orthodox shuls are not family-friendly. The remark was absurd. You just have to walk into an Orthodox shul to see that.
No, we are not immune to life's vissicitudes, and yes, some of us are alone through no fault of our own. You are absolutely right about that.
Actually, I agree with Mirty that Orthodox Shuls are not family friendly. And I prefer it that way. In an Orthodox prayer service, we do not approach God as families, but as individuals. Our affiliation is with the community as a whole. There are other times where we function as a family in ritual. A seder or lighting Chanukiyah.
We sit with our kids in shul, but that is a matter of training, not an essential part of the prayer experience. many other halachot of Shul are designed to create a sense of solitude in front of God, not just mechitza. prohibitions against talking in shul, and I dont just mean because of hefsek. If I sit with my wife, then I am concentrating on her, not on God.
And that is not what shul is about.
I can't stand what you write, Toby Katz!!!!
What - Reform and Conservative Jews don't love having children?? Only you frummies do???
it is possible that in 50 years only the frummies will be jewish in america... but only because you will have screwed judaism up to the point where no-one with any brains or compassion wants to be a part of it.
How can you say 'fools's gold' and not the real thing? Don't you know how screwed up your own judaism is? don't you know that you have skewed to the right just as far as others have skewed to the left?
You are sooo arrogant. You give no real respect to decisions made by non-orthodox jews who try honestly to be the best jews they can be. They are not just doing whatever feels good to them and ignoring tradition. They are taking their judaism seriosly.
At least they think about it, which is more than can be said for you, for your foolish artscroll dumb-it-down-for-the-masses judaism.
just stop doing damage, woman.
shut your trap before you put any more jews off being jewish with your callous, thoughtless mean spirited verbal diahorrea.
Ke'evei Beten is apparently unaware that non-Orthodox Jews reached the liberal goal of ZPG some years ago and now have gone beyond that to negative population growth. If he personally has more than 1.5 Jewish children, kol hakovod to him and ken yirbu.
I can't count the number of Jewish women I know who chose careers over marriage and children. That's a choice rarely made by Orthodox women.
I can't count the number of Jewish men I know who married non-Jewish wives and have non-Jewish children.
Conservative and Reform Jews are often sincere, but that doesn't keep their children Jewish. Your intense wish that a way could somehow be found to maintain Jewish identity without Torah observance is heartfelt but forlorn.
What - Reform and Conservative Jews don't love having children?? Only you frummies do??? --Ke'evei Beten
One more thing I meant to say about this. I know many, many balos teshuva (women who grew up Reform, Conservative, or nothing, and became frum as adults) and virtually without exception, they report that their own mothers were very upset and angry when their BT daughters became pregnant for the fourth, fifth and sixth time.
"What, pregnant AGAIN?! Why do you let your husband do this to you?! Are you too spineless to tell him no?" "You're ruining your health! Haven't you ever heard of birth control?" "What happened to your brain? What happened to your Ivy League education? All that education going to waste while you change diapers?" Etc etc.
Most of my BT women friends are afraid to tell their mothers when they get pregnant because they know they're in for a tongue-lashing.
If you are honest with yourself you will admit that R and C Jews do not value children as much as O Jews do, because they see children as interfering with other, more important things an educated and intelligent woman could be doing.
I personally do not know one single Reform woman--not one--who has five children.
But I will admit that the Reform grandmothers do come around, and do come to love their Orthodox grandchildren. Who, more often than not, are the only grandchildren they have.
RHS explained (printed in one of the Beis Yitzchak's as well as in his sefer B'Ikvei Hatzoan) why WPG's are not a good thing for a number of reasons. I will mention one reason here that is very relevant to DB's point and shows where he is mistaken. RHS pointed out that in Halacha and Hashkafa, tefilla b'tzibbur is a very important thing (the tefilla of a tzibbur is always answered etc.) and is objectively a better tefila then the tefila of an individual or a group of individuals. The halacha defines a rabim as 10 men. Therefore if women get together and have a WPG's they are missing out on tefilla betzibbur which the torah objectively says is a better tefila. It doesn't matter what they feel or want, the Torah states explicitly that Tefilla Btzibbur is better. Therefore any woman who truly wants to daven to hashem will go too a minyan and not a WPG's
feel-good...prayers
I always find this description to be somewhat amusing, as if there were no room for feeling good in religion or prayers. Well, it's probably better than feeling bad or bored or not praying at all. One would almost get the impression from cliches such as these that Judaism is a religion that has no place for feeling good, unless and only when it's commanded.
If keeping the Torah makes you feel good, that's great. If making up your own religion as you go along makes you feel good--that's not good.
You can call it what you want, but it's not Judaism. I can name my kid "George W. Bush" if I want, but he still won't be the president of the United States.
The children raised in a culture of "Do whatever you want honey, as long as it makes you feel good" rarely identify as Jews. Unless they become BT's and find their way to the real thing.
However, the fact that you prefer to call what you do "Judaism" does at least suggest a residual emotional and spiritual attachment to actual Judaism, which leaves a great window of hope for you and your children.
Mirty,
While I see your point, I believe the mechitza is fundamental to Judaism. But instead of just having women watch the men, a "seperate but equal" solution has its advantages. I also belive shul is not about being with your family, but about G-d.
Toby,
Defining women as birth machines is not family friendly but sexist and respectless. Family friendly means equal opportunities for people with children. And while I believe it is important to have children, the fact that babies are born from the mother is no justification to reduce them to that function. Children are important to me, but as a man, I don't see why the father shouldn't have an equal role in parenting. I also believe that women are full and equal human beings (oh my, I am saying this to a woman who seems to disagree) and that the fact that the get the children shouldn't prevent them from having a full professional and cultural life.
Toby, I don't see in how far your Judaism is "the real thing". Loving Avoda Zora and refusing ahavas yisroel aren't in my Torah. There also is no mitzva that says real Jews must vote Republican.
Toby, you wrote "If you are honest with yourself you will admit that R and C Jews do not value children as much as O Jews do"
This is no marker of being orthodox or reform... this is a marker of whether you are fundamentally conservative/republican or progressive. It has nothing to do with jewish beliefs / practices.
I don't recall where in the Torah it says that a family with 2 chlidren is less orthodox than one with ten.
Higher levels of transmission are to do with the homogeneity of communal organisation and the corresponding negative attitudes towards the outside world and nothing to do with belief and ritual practice.
Being orthodox does not necessarily mean you kids will be jewish. being r or c doesn't necessarily mean they wont...
so let's stop with these ridiculous claims. you are a very very very poor social scientist toby, and an even poorer specimen of jew.
Also, again you make the mistake of not realising that your right wing orthodoxy is just as made up as any other.
Your rightwing orthodox rabbi's took a previously alien attitude to the outside world and made it a mainstay of their judaism... why? coz it suited them.
Your rightwing orthodox rabbis froze the halachic process in a way that makes fidelity to jewish values secondary to the protection of certain rituals. why? coz it suited them.
your rightwing orthodox rabbis chose to protect the elite ghetto jews and ignore the vast majority of the jewish people. why? coz it suited them.
They are reacting to the same environmental pressures the r and c jews do, but just in a different direction.
To pretend they are infallible, more in touch with what G-d wants, or just doing what has always been the Jewish way is particularly foolish.
Jewropean,
The Torah assigns different roles to men and women, they are not equal but different. Jewish men have different responsibilities and duties then Jewish women. In fact, even among men, you have Cohanim, Leviim, and Yisraelim who also have different responsibilities and duties. Modern society is trying to tell us that everyone is equal men and women, the Torah disagrees, period.
dubi
you have some really nutty commenters here.
first of all rebecca (no you are not nutty) we have had cholent at yedidya. you mostly visit in summer time but there have been many winter shabbatot when the cholent comes out. but vegetarian of course.
don't you love the reasoning ...
a. women have no obligation to pray in a minyan
b. but g-d forbid they should pray by themselves together.
bes yaacov schools the girls/young women daven together as individuals. you dont see them going to a male minyan just to be present with 10 men.
.
i also think that ortho synagogues are quite children friendly (well many of them are - and some aren't). i also think that mixed seating never added to my prayer experience when i was younger and went to a conservative syngaogue. although they were ceratinly a part of my religious development.
if i had experienced attitude like tk or others above, though, i probably would not have gone very far into orthodox judaism.
kobi
Toby, there are no words. But I'll try. I have four kids. I hope to have more. But again, I cannot relate ONE BIT to the words that come out of your mouth. First of all, "If you are honest with yourself you will admit that R and C Jews do not value children as much as O Jews do, because they see children as interfering with other, more important things an educated and intelligent woman could be doing.". That is just unfair. Having fewer children has nothing to do with whether or not a person values them. It just means they value having many of them. And while I do not agree, many wcould make a case that those who have fewer children value those that they have more than those who have large numbers of children. So you really havee to consider the words that you use before you hit "publish".
"My intention was clear from the context."
Why don't you stop relying on context to make your points, and make your points yourself. Because I have to hope that up until now, we've been misundertanding you.
Many women know that they felt a sense of loss when they reached the age where they had to leave their father's side and sit behind the mechitza.
Some Orthodox people realize - and some don't -- that there are fathers who do not want to wave good-bye to their daughters at the door of the synagogue. My husband will attend any flavor of service, as long as there is not a mechitzah. He wants his son and daughter with him, beside him.
I enjoyed the shtebl I grew up with very much - see my post http://mirty12.blogspot.com/2005.../04/
shtebl.html - but I would not attend any shul now that had a mechitzah.
By "family friendly" I do not mean encouraging pregnancy, but having customs that allow everyone to enjoy the experience of being a family together. I see great joy in my own family when we sing "L'cha Dodi" together; I did not experience that as a child myself.
Orthodoxy is family-friendly in MANY ways, but the services are not, I believe.
Toby - You are very welcome to read my blog and my own story of leaving Judaism and - more than 20 years later - returning and rejoining as a Reform Jew.
Rest assured, I am not ignorant. (Not learned, surely, but not igorant.) I am very involved in Yiddishkeit now, as a Reform Jew. If this avenue was not open to me, I would have no involvement whatsoever, as Orthodoxy is not my path.
Jewropean - I do know that prayer is between the individual and G-d, but we also have the concept of a minyan and praying as a community of Israel. For me, my love for my family and devotion to them is a great expression of my love for G-d and my belonging among the Children of Israel.
Anyone who calls the mother of his children a "birth machine" is a misogynist in my book. Denigrating the unique G-d-given and miraculous role of women doesn't make you a champion of women. You think the ideal woman is a man in a skirt. I beg to differ.
As for the claim that Orthodoxy is just as man-made as any other flavor of Judaism, yes, I am aware that non-Orthodox Jews believe that. They consider the whole religion and culture to be ad hoc, just made up. If they didn't think that way--if they thought it was G-d-given and had some objective reality--then by definition they'd be Orthodox.
But there's a huge flaw in that logic. If the whole thing is just made up, what's the point? Why tether yourself to this particular space ship at all? Cut the cord and float free. What do you need it for?
Like the astronaut on a space walk who is afraid to let his cord snap, lest he find himself adrift in the vast universe, you Jews who make up your religion as you go along do at some level retain a soul-attachment to the mother ship. And as long as you still want to call yourself Jews, I for one welcome the cord that keeps you here with us.
Gil ( Women's Prayer Groups - R. J. David Bleich's Position) quoted R' Bleich about this issue which sums it up best why WPG's are wrong halachically:
R. Bleich makes the point that we have raised in prior points that going to the effort of attending an organized prayer service but choosing to pray without a minyan over with a minyan is making an halakhically improper decision. He illustrates it beautifully and I will reproduce his analogy (p. 117).
This point may be illustrated by the following analogy: No one is obligated to invest in funds in order to earn a profit... [C]onsider the person who does have both the funds and the desire to invest. He or she is offered two separate investment opportunities. Each is entirely risk-free and open-ended in terms of potential profit. The second is tied to the first in the sense that it is guaranteed to yield no less a return than the first but carries the additional advantage of a guaranteed minimum return. Which offer should the investor choose? Since the first investment opportunity carries no advantage over the second, while the second bears the distinct advantage of a guaranteed return, the choice is obvious. An investment counselor who recommends the first investment over the second has not only offered poor advice but has transgressed the biblical commandment "and thou shalt not place a stumbling block before the blind" Leviticus (19:14).
Women who pray with a minyan have a guaranteed better reward for their prayers than women who pray with a Women's Prayer Group. If women are willing to take on the burden of leaving their homes and going to a place of prayer (i.e. they are willing to invest their money in an opportunity) and choose the lesser option of praying without a minyan (i.e. place their money in the opportunity that gives a lower return), they are making a foolish choice. Anyone who advises them to do so is giving bad advice, with all of the attendant implications.
R. Bleich further writes (p. 119): "Assuredly, the guaranteed benefits of tefillah be-zibbur outweigh those of any possible subjective experience."
ERRATUM That last sentence should read:
And as long as you still want to call yourself a Jew, I for one welcome the cord that keeps you here with us.
Toby, i am orthodox. i just believe that right wing orthodoxy is just as off the path as is r or c judaism!
i know you confuse having a big family with being orthodox... or criticising orthodoxy with being reform... but, again, and unsurprisingly, you are totally wrong.
Also, simplistically, you assume that if I think there has been human interaction or a human contribution then it is all made up and worthless.
Human contributions are a huge part of what Judaism is. But let's recognise it for what it is.
Just coz it was "made up by human's" doesn't mean it has no value. In fact, it means it is of great value.
A joint piece of work between G-d and humankind... and you think it is of no value??? shame on you.
Kudos to Bluke for his posts on this issue. I think it is fair to state that most frum women are interested in issues that revolve around relationships and how to improve them such as kids at risk, the quality of education, shidduchim and chesed related issues. In contrast, there is a small but vocal minority that is obsessed with power related issues that essentially are an appeasement of feminism's critique of halacha such as women's prayer groups,the advocacy of single life over married life,seating arrangements at simchos and whether women should learn in the same manner as men.
My view on the role of non-Orthodoxy in Judaism - http://mirty12.blogspot.com/2005...e-big-
jump.html
Barefoot Jewess-We make a bracha on any mitzvah because any mitzvah which is a Divinely ordained Commandment represents the obligations that we we accepted at Sinai or thru subsequent rabbinic enactments. These mitzvos,such as Simchas Yom Tov, Oneg Shabbos,Tkias Shofar, Krias HaMegillah as opposed to a rationally based mitzah such as tzedakeh,generate a an emotional response in addition to the "mere" performance of ritual.IOW, the action of a commanded act generates an emotional fulfillment, as opposed to either a volunteered act or an act that is not a mitzvah but which is rationally understood on its own.
Steve,
Can't any act generate an emotional response? Isn't this totally dependent on the individual?
Davening leaves me cold.
But for others it is moving.
Giving charity makes me feel good.
For others it is a real drag.
Listening to Toby makes me mad.
For others it makes them feel good.
Can't rationally understood acts generate emotional fulfillment too?
I think that many of the proponents of WTGs assume that Judaism is a synagogue based religion. In fact,no one less than R SR Hirsch , advocated closing the synagogues of his time so that the assimilated German Jews experience the family ambiance of the Shabbos table.
IMO, this is another error that advocates of the WTGs make. They assume that the public display of nussach hatefilah, etc is more important than the many private acts that comprise the raising of a Jewish family. RYBS many years ago wrote that the separation of the genders during Tefillah by a mechitzah was what distinguished Jewish prayer from non-Jewish prayers. One can only conclude that the WTGs and their colleagues in such entities as Kehillat Yedidyah have rejected this view without any basis in halacha, but rather upon their own appeasement of feminism.
Toby thank goodness we are still connected to G-d. If we were only connected to your mother-ship of rightwing idiocy, we would have cut the cord years ago.
Listening to Toby makes me mad.
She makes me laugh.
Another thought: I was taught that without a mechitza, all kinds of pritzus would take place in shul. But if you go to a non-mechitzah service, you'll see that not only is there no inappropriate behavior, but the men actually behave better! They daven; they don't talk, don't spit or scratch or get up and walk around. They daven!
Men generally do behave better when women are present. Especially when their wives and mothers are present. (Men, you know it's true... c'mon now.)
KB-What generates an emotional response today may not generate any response or a negative response tomorow. RYBS emphasized this in his famous drasha on Parshas Korach.In fact, RYBS viewed such a subjective response as almost hedonistic in nature.
A rationally understood act is the very antithesis of a commanded act. The Rashba explains that is precisely why we do not make a bracha on the giving of Tzedaka or any similar action which is rationally understood.
Adam and Eve were tested with the command to refrain from a probibited action, not to either volunteer an act or even to fulfill a positive act. RYBS wrote in The Emergence of Ethical Man that an ethical person is per se a person who lives and responds to a commandment. The ethical development of man and woman from their failure to respond to the commandment in the Garden of Eden to their acceptance of the Torah and its ppermitted and prohibited actions is the epitome of religious growth, as opposed to transgressing boundaries, rules and regulations to create a mode of living and worship that "feels good."
Can't you understand something you are commanded?
Is RYBS always right?
If a commanded act gives me a response today, doesn't that mean it may not tomorrow?
Isn't what makes it hedonistic the reason for doing the act, not the end result? i.e. If I am commanded to do an act that I fully comprehend the reason for, and then perform the act and feel no emotional response am I being hedonistic or obedient?
And I agree, why can't we enjoy being good jews?
>At least they think about it,
>which is more than can be said
>for you, for your foolish artscroll >dumb-it-down-for-the-masses judaism.
Are you for real? Tell me, how much thought goes in to eating a ham sandwich on Yom Kippur?
And following from MIrty's moving post...
isn't the pragmatic test of whether something works or not the best way to know if we are doing the right thing?
I.e. if doing a given act makes us all feel good, and produces moral, ethical sensible peaceful virtuous life - then isn't that worth more than a rule commanded by rabbis or not?
>they report that their own
>mothers were very upset and
>angry when their BT daughters
>became pregnant for the fourth,
>fifth and sixth time
I know! It's a real Abu Ghraib.
>Who, more often than not, are
>the only grandchildren they have.
Often, the only Jewish grandchildren they have.
Dear Al,
First of all, thanks for your book Earth in the Balance, it really opened my eyes to environmental issues.
Second of all... your commnet about ham sandwiches was a little out of character... so perhaps it isn't really you. Either way...
being a non-practicing reform jew takes the same effort as being a lazy orthodox jew. but you don't judge ortho judaism by the lazy jews... so don't judge reform judaism by the lazy ones either.
Why not take the serious ones of each, and compare them?
Or try to see which ones beliefs makes more sense, is more truthful, rational or some other meaningful standard?
And no wonder you lost to Bush... you had that pansy ass Lieberman by your side.
Next time get Hilary... oh... sorry.
What religious experience is there in hagba'ah? It's only because it is something new, ostensibly forbidden, that you get such a big high.
As to Mirty's claim that men behave better and daven when there is a mechitzah, I grew up in a shul without a mechitzah and the vast majority of men did not even recite the Shemoneh Esreh. But the real problem was simply that *some* women came to shul dressed skimpily and men are not allowed to daven in sight of such women. One miniskirt or low-cut blouse ruins the davening for all the men.
My kids go back and forth between me and my wife, but ususally don't sit in one place for more than five minutes at any given time anyway.
As to Toby's arguments about non-Orthodox women having less kids, I can't stand her tone but she is both statistically correct and family-wise correct. I cannot tell you how many lectures I've received about how I shouldn't have too many children, including one from a woman who lost one of her two children at a young age!
Wow! What a den of snakes this discussion has become! At the (the horror! the horror!) prospect of women davening together with other women without any men present.
Kobi - hmmm, maybe it's just that I don't seek out the cholent at Yedidyah...
Toby Katz - you could make your point with far less venom and be much more convincing. I don't think that accusing other people of not loving their children as much as Orthodox Jews is going to get you anywhere. And, by the way, non-Orthodox Jews do not just "make it up as they go along." Have you really studied the history of the Conservative movement and what the movement is doing today? As a member of a Conservative shul, I would say that what the movement presents to me as the proper practice of Judaism is an attempt to reconcile Judaism with modernity and the values of liberal democracy. It is an attempt to continue Jewish practice and Jewish values in a modern world that constantly tugs on all people to abandon traditional practices.
On davening in a mechitza minyan - although I ideologically believe in egalitarian davening, one of the things that I value about going to an Orthodox shul is the sense of community among the women on the women's side. I haven't found this in every single Orthodox shul I've visited, but I have found it in enough of them to make me willing to go back despite my ideological objections.
I'm happy to see the non-Orthodox MOVEMENTS destroying themselves,
Sure Toby, it is always a good thing to see Judaism destroyed by unnecessary internecine bickering.
Your anachronistic, backwards positions are not helpful in any way that I can determine.
Orthodox Jews do not love their children anymore than any other group. We all love our children and not all of us have turned off our brains to accept what has been spoonfed to us and that is an apt description of many in the Orthodox community.
Orthodoxy is not for everyone and it is the place of a bigot to consider it to be the sole form of Judaism that is acceptable.
I urge you to think about it.
DovBear on Halachah:
As long as your not hurting anyone, what's the big deal?
Who needs Shulchan Aruch?
Who needs Poskim?
Go Jack.
Spot on.
Gil
We are all sure Toby is correct that Ortho women have more kids... but how do you draw a causation (as opposed to a correlation) between number of kids and either a) the amount that reform or ortho mums love their kids or b) between number of kids and dogmatically reform or ortho beliefs?
Toby is wrong on the important matter. She thinks it is more jewishly correct to have lots of kids...
(by the way.. does she think a jew who has 20 kids is a better jew than one who has only 5 kids?)
I am anti Reform and intermarriage, Toby. I fail to see how a woman's minyan leads inevitably to any of thet. You can participate in a woman's minyan, and still have plenty of kids. The two are not mutually exclusive.
"As to Toby's arguments about non-Orthodox women having less kids, I can't stand her tone but she is both statistically correct and family-wise correct. I cannot tell you how many lectures I've received about how I shouldn't have too many children, including one from a woman who lost one of her two children at a young age!"
That's my whole point, Gil. Her points are often valid. But they are so muddied by the tone of her comments that it is difficult to glean what her point actually IS. To say that ""If you are honest with yourself you will admit that R and C Jews do not value children as much as O Jews do, because they see children as interfering with other, more important things an educated and intelligent woman could be doing", is just inflammatory. You can say that secular Jews (I wouldn't even say Reform and Conservative)do not value HAVING children as much as Orthodox Jews. But to say they value CHILDREN less is just glaring in it's wrongness. You can say that Orthodox Judaism puts the family at the center of the Jewish Woman's life. But to say that therefore having a husband and children is the only way to have a "normal life" is again, inflammatory, especially for those who may not be able to make that choice. I take issue with her presenting herself as the spokesperson for Orthodox Jewish Women everywhere. I take issue with her use of the royal "we". I take issue with her tone of self-righteousness. I take issue with her lack of understanding that for the sake of making her little points, she is alienating further those with less of a "cord to the mother ship" than her obviously well-tethered self. I DON'T take issue with much of her hashkafic views. Unfortunately, though, she makes me wish I did.
also, why does one woman with a short skirt ruin the davening for all the men?
It doesn't ruin it for me.
I can keep my eyes to myself.
Why are you trying to blame the wrong person? Don't blame the woman for her clothes. Blame the man who has no self-control.
In a rape case, do you say "well, she was wearing a short skirt... she was probably asking for it?"
It might ruin the tefilla for you halachically - as would the presence of a maried women whose head was not covered... but if it does, and you think G-d wont accept your prayers because of this, then I humbly suggest you have bigger problems.
DovBear on Halachah:
As long as your not hurting anyone, what's the big deal?
Who needs Shulchan Aruch?
Who needs Poskim?
Brilliant. Let me play Toby for a second and accuse tyou of misunderstanding me. But really, I wasn't clear. I should have said, so long as it is mutar (and a WPG is mutar, as mutar as a tehillim group is) why object to it, on specious gorounds like their alleaged "motivations?"
Oh, and I daven in a shteeble, and believe me: it is not family friendly. I don't say it should be, or that it is supposed to be. Only that it isn't.
But they are so muddied by the tone of her comments that it is difficult to glean what her point actually IS
Her point on halacha are USUALLY valid.
Her points on hashkafa are OCCASIONALY valid.
Her points on Politics and history are ALMOST ALWAYS dead wrong.
But her nasty smug tone undermines it all.
No one said that you can't enjoy being a good Jew, in fact, the Avnei Nezer in a famous teshuva about learning torah writes that the highest level of learning torah is when you enjoy it. The point is that enjoyment can't dictate what you do and what you don't do. Halacha sets an objective standard, you are commanded to do this, and you aren't allowed to do this. It doesn't matter how much you enjoy something if the halacha prohibits it you can't do it. Likewise, if the halacha commands you to do something you can't not do it because you don't enjoy it.
In truth, a person should get true enjoyment when they fulfill the will of Hashem. That is our purpose in life and when we fulfill our purpose we should get enjoyment.
The will of Hashem as expressed through the halacha is that if possible a person should daven b'tzibbur. Therefore, if a woman who is going out to daven anyway, truly wants to fulfill the will of hashem (which should bring true enjoyment), she should go to shul and daven with a minyan and not go to a WPG. Going to a WPG fulfills her will not Hashems.
DB writes I should have said, so long as it is mutar (and a WPG is mutar, as mutar as a tehillim group is) why object to it?
Here are some of the MO poskim who assur:
R' Bleich
R' Shachter
most probably RYBS
Who are the poskim who are matir? The Rabbis who are matir (like R' Berman) are nowhere near the level of anyone on the above list and their reasons (as Gil already pointed out) are very unconvincing.
Ke'evei Beten,
The halacha states that a person should have as many children as possible. The mitzva d'oraysa of pru urvu is with a boy and a girl, however, there is a mitzva midivrei sofrim based on the psauk of v'laerev al tanach yadecha to have addition children. So yes, it is more jewishly correct to have lots of kids if it is possible.
Vavei beten writes It might ruin the tefilla for you halachically - as would the presence of a maried women whose head was not covered... but if it does, and you think G-d wont accept your prayers because of this, then I humbly suggest you have bigger problems.
I don't understand what you are saying. Do you accept the halacha or not? If you are orthodox and believe in halacha then a woman in a short skirt, top etc. poses a halachic problem in tefila and you may not be yotze tefilla, this is plain and simple shulchan aruch.
The premise of orthodoxy is that the halacha matters and yes, Hashem cares very much if you follow the halacha or not.
Bluke,
While I am not familiar with the tshuvos of R. Bleich and R. Shachter of women prayer groups (though it's possible you're right, since the two actually are close to Hareidism), the Rov recommended not to do it, but said it was mutar.
Jewropean,
As to the positions of R' Bleich and R' Shachter you can see them all on Hirhurim. If they are Charedi then who are the MO poskim?
Here Women's Prayer Groups: Rav Soloveitchik's Position he discusses RYBS's position and he concludes (and I agree with this conclusion)
What can be clearly seen, from three separate and even antagonistic reports of R. Soloveitchik's view, is that he was firmly set against the practice for a whole host of reasons. This has been confirmed from dozens of interviews and from the testimony of his close students and relatives. While he did not agree with everything that R. Hershel Schachter wrote on this subject, he agreed with his conclusion that WPGs are not allowed.
We have children. We WANT children. We--and by "we" I mean Orthodox women--do not view ourselves as being held back from accomplishing our life's goals by pregnancy and child-rearing.
I get it. If you're barren, you have no life.
Some of these children you say everyone wants? Think about the number of people on scholarships at school. Think of the crowded houses. Think of the "quality" such numerous children receive. Think of all that "attention" they are getting.
Non-existant, correct?
And yet everyone is raising those children oh-so-well and carefully/ tenderly. Those children love their parents oh-so-much.
Right?
Dead wrong.
If you think the Jewish system for child-rearing is working, think again. Little kids run wild, recklessly jumping around in shul, bothering everyone, breaking things, brainwashed and neglected.
Great, great child-rearing you've got there. Oh! And the shul babysitter, of course.
Mmm-hmm. Let's keep on dreaming.
I was married for eleven years before I had children, so I am very well aware that not everyone who wants children, has children. Not everyone who wants to be married, is married. We do what we can, and the rest is in G-d's hands.
I didn't say that non-Orthodox Jews don't love their children. I said that they don't value children. I stand by that.
We have more children because we value them. What you value, you try to acquire more of. Children are our future.
"It might ruin the tefilla for you halachically - as would the presence of a maried women whose head was not covered... but if it does, and you think G-d wont accept your prayers because of this, then I humbly suggest you have bigger problems."
It does ruin the tefillah halakhically, as opposed to a married woman with uncovered hair (according to many posekim). If you don't like halakhah, that's no reason to respect us less for following it.
I'll add that this point has been confirmed explicitly in the Conservative responsa on the subject of mehitzah.
The Avnei Nezer is in the introduction to Eglei Tal, not a teshuvah.
I should add that R. Yehuda Henkin has expressed to me that he is against Women's Prayer Groups. The Rav *never* said that a Women's Prayer Group is permissible. His words had meaning. He said that it is not assur but should not be done. See his grandson's article on the subject, summarized and linked in my post on the subject on Hirhurim.
Those who want further insight into Toby Katz's antagonism to Reform and Conservative should read her article in the current issue of Jewish Action: http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/
It adds perspective to her positions.
I didn't say that non-Orthodox Jews don't love their children. I said that they don't value children.
How did you reach this conclusion?
R' Gil-
they posted it here, on the comments to Dov Bear's post here- From the email bag; there is some discussion about it there.
_____
did anyone read toby katz's article in the newest jewish action?
AMSHINOVER | Homepage | 06.16.05 - 2:15 pm | #
have a link?
DovBear | 06.16.05 - 2:16 pm | #
http://www.ou.org/publications/ j...nesseeTorah.pdf
AMSHINOVER | Homepage | 06.16.05 - 2:17 pm | #
why does toby rate a JA article?
DovBear | 06.16.05 - 2:17 pm | #
This is not her first. She had an article about her father R' Nachman Bulman z'l (interesting that she uses her maiden name in the article here).
Krum as a bagel | Homepage | 06.16.05 - 2:24 pm | #
____
If it's osur, as Gil says, its osur. I'm not sure that WPGs are the biggest threat to the republc however...
We have more children because we value them. What you value, you try to acquire more of. Children are our future.
And sometimes because you value your children you stop having them because you can only support so many emotionally and financially.
This argument is just foolish.
Everything that is not assur is mutar, even if it is "not advisable".
Also while I see that some Poskim hold that opinion, others disagree. And I think if women whose rav is matir WPGs, do it, I don't see the others should get into that community's affairs.
And I didn't say R. Shachter and R. Bleich were Chareidi, just close to Chareidism, as opposed to R. Tendler or R. Avi Weiss for example.
"I didn't say that non-Orthodox Jews don't love their children. I said that they don't value children. I stand by that.
We have more children because we value them. What you value, you try to acquire more of. Children are our future."
Toby, this is a losing argument. Many feel, as I said before, that those who have fewer children, and therefore have more time for each child, value children as much if not more than those who choose to have many. I happen to feel that there are benefits to having large families that can outweigh the drawbacks of not having as much individual time with each child. But that does not mean that you can sum it all up with a ridiculously pat statement like the one above.
Jack - I think it's good to have a heartfelt and hearty discussion of these issues. In debates like this, what folks might bear in mind is the old saying: Keep your words sweet; you may have to eat them later. Or (Toby), watch what you say about facial hair, because you might wake up with a bit of moustache on a day you're not allowed to bleach or pluck. (A woman in a sheitl with a 'stash - no one wants to see that!) :D
And concerning Halacha, a question: When I first started reading Orthodox blogs, it was interesting to catch up on changes in Orthodox Judaism since the 1970s, when I was Orthodox. I found out that now you are allowed to shower and wash your hair on the three-day yontifs, which used to be asur. Did halacha change?
What I don't understand from this whole discussion is which rabbis ignored the Rambams dictate that women not be allowed out of the house for than 2 or 3 times a month for reasons of modesty. Any correct analysis of the Rambam's position would be machmir and hold that by appearing on the Internet, Toby is violating this position. Which rabbis allowed Toby to be conversing with men that are not her husband? Which ones allowed this bas yisroel to talk torah to men!? This is a shanda and ought to be stopped right away. Modesty and the well being of our sensitive and delicate bnos yisroel ought to take precedence over fighting the kofrim!
Why isn't the tnzius patrol making sure that the bnos yisroek, the bnos hamelech don't act immodestly in the Jewish blogosphere??!!
Bluke- once upon a time the Sadducees were powerful and the big name authorities and the Pharisees were little known teachers. Would you rather everyone then had followed your advice? If so, we'd probably have no Judaism left now.
mirty,
I suppose the view of R. Ovadia Yossef became acceptable among Ashkenazim. Sefardim always used soap on Shabbos, for example.
oosj,
I don't like your humor.
Apart from that, the Satmar Vaad Hatznius IS active online, but not in Modern Orthodox blogs.
OOSJ, welcome to the blog. Nice to have you.
Interesting point about Toby, I mean Toady's non-traditional behavior...
Might as well put my two cents in. R. Gil, in his post on R. Schachter, freely notes that R. Schachter is opposed to women's tefilla groups, and as such reads the sources to back up his view. The grounds to assur WTG are very very thin, and it comes out as more hashkafa than halacha. See the encyclopedic article by the Rabbis Frimmer in Tradition arounnd 1995(part 2 never got published. hmmmmm).
It is pretty clear from many talmidim that RYBS never flat out assured WTG,no matter what R. Meiselman and R. Twersky claim.
If the main opposition to WTG is that they are giving up tefilla b'tzibbur for tefilla without tzibbur, then you shouldn't daven anywhere without a minyan, because you are doing the same thing. So dont go to your friend's house to learn and daven Shabbat afternoon, if you dont daven with a minyan it is ASSUR.
Actually, women don't have a chiyyuv to daven b'tzibbur, and apparently there is a question as to whether women in the ezrat hanashim are mitzaref(considered together) with the men on the other side of the mechitza anyway. And, it is a balance between the positives of increased kavannah and learning at the WTG, against the benefit of tefilla betzibbur.
And also the increased benefit of davening at all, if the women participating in a given WTG would otherwise stay home and not daven (or, it pains me to say, go to shul and not daven, but rather catch up on the gossip).
Toby Katz, you give Orthodox Judaism a bad name. And FYI, Reform Judaism is the fastest growing and largest denomination of Judaism in this country.
What a terrible thing to believe that you love your children more than those who don't share your beliefs. I pity you.
And although the Orthodox may have more children, you are not taking into account the many who will leave that way of life, finding it unmeaninful, oppressive and illogical.
To be fair, Toby DID say specifically that she meant value and NOT love. That being said, I find the statement just as reprehensible when you substitute the word value.
Stacey,
"fastest growing"
1) In absolute, not in relative numbres though.
2) The percentage of people affiliated to Reform Judaism who are actually halachically Jewish is decreasing. The percentage of people being born from two halachically Jewish parents even more so.
What religious experience is there in hagba'ah? It's only because it is something new, ostensibly forbidden, that you get such a big high.
LOL! I would imagine one is more likely to get a hernia than a 'high'. The fact that you have to ask what "religious experience" there is in this honour, while knowing full well what the meaning behind it is (I presume you do), well, I"m speechless. Gee, I hope you "feel good" about some of the ritual stuff!
So, how goes it when you dance with the Torah on Simchat Torah? Is it okay to "feel good" then? Is it okay for it to be a "religious experience"? I guess David should have been ashamed dancing in front of the Ark and in fact didn't his party-pooper wife berate him? What a scandal! I'm sure he only did it to feel good.
jordan, the statement on family-friendliness was 100% right. If you have a community, you socialize as families. If you go to shul, you want to concentrate on the prayers. If I sat next to my husband I would be worrying if he was concentrating on the prayers, too. I can see him and wave to him over the mechitzah.
Toby, I don't think the secular (liberal Jewish) world thinks that women want to be men. Tirzah Firestone's book The Receiving is a good example of illustrating holy things which women did besides having families as a way of bringing balance to Jewish spirituality. Jewish Renewal in general wishes to honor both the masculine and feminine elements in Judaism instead of confining public spirituality to "what men do". I was very moved by the two WPGs which I attended because the women were doing things for themselves instead of by proxy.
I found a women's group at Central Reform St. Louis, the Naomi Group, which studies the lives of Jewish women as well.
>Little kids run wild, recklessly jumping around in shul, bothering everyone, breaking things, brainwashed and neglected.<
Not my kids.
Just my 2 cents: I've been to a women's tefillah group once, to support a good friend of mine who was holding it to celebrate her upcoming marriage. I went unwillingly, and certain that I would feel foolish & uncomfortable.
Once there, however, I felt, for once, included and a participant in the service, someone who mattered and affected what was happening there. It made me realize what I was missing by being on the other side of the mechitzah all these years, and how special it must be to be able to participate fully like men can.
On the flip side, I don't think it's proper to separate from the main minyan, and I want to be part of a community that is a community, with both men & women at an orthodox service. But the experience gave me a window to appreciate why some women prefer WTG to regular minyanim. While I doubt I'll go again, there's a definite inclusion there that's missing from the women's experience in a regular shul.
Dovbear:
If it's osur, as Gil says, its osur. I'm not sure that WPGs are the biggest threat to the republc however...
I don't think anybody does. A big threat, though, is the only-sometimes unstated agenda of which this is only a part. Oh, now everyone is going to deny it. But you'd have to be willfully blind to ignore the whispers of women rabbis. WPGs are part of the whole momentum.
Jewropean:
Everything that is not assur is mutar, even if it is "not advisable".
If only you had been around in the time of the Gemara to teach that to the Amoraim, because they contradict your principle on numerous occasions.
And I didn't say R. Shachter and R. Bleich were Chareidi, just close to Chareidism, as opposed to R. Tendler or R. Avi Weiss for example.
I'm not sure which Tendler you mean, but R. Mordechai Tendler is probably more Haredi than R. Hershel Schachter.
Mirty:
I found out that now you are allowed to shower and wash your hair on the three-day yontifs, which used to be asur. Did halacha change?
It's more complicated than that. Part of it is the change in hygiene habits of the Jewish community, which impact on halakhah in this case. Part of it is also that the blogs (not mine!) were advocating a leniency that is not widely promulgated because there are other prohibitions that would be violated by people if they take showers.
I don't think anybody does. A big threat, though, is the only-sometimes unstated agenda of which this is only a part. Oh, now everyone is going to deny it. But you'd have to be willfully blind to ignore the whispers of women rabbis. WPGs are part of the whole momentum.
Baloney. Letting woman daven together isn't any more dangerous than a Wednesday morning tehillim group.
OOSJ:
What I don't understand from this whole discussion is which rabbis ignored the Rambams dictate that women not be allowed out of the house for than 2 or 3 times a month for reasons of modesty.
You mean Ashkenazic rabbis don't follow the Rambam on every issue? I'm shocked!
Dilbert:
It is pretty clear from many talmidim that RYBS never flat out assured WTG,no matter what R. Meiselman and R. Twersky claim.
R. Twersky wrote that explicitly. That's one of his main points!
Actually, women don't have a chiyyuv to daven b'tzibbur, and apparently there is a question as to whether women in the ezrat hanashim are mitzaref(considered together) with the men on the other side of the mechitza anyway.
The way-out position that women are not considered part of the tzibbur is just a red herring. Most posekim don't hold by that. And the issue is not whether they are obligated to go to shul. It is whether they can create a totally new kind of service with no halakhic significance, and use it instead of one with a very high halakhic significance. In other words, it is an example of "spirituality" trumping halakhah.
Shanna:
And also the increased benefit of davening at all, if the women participating in a given WTG would otherwise stay home and not daven (or, it pains me to say, go to shul and not daven, but rather catch up on the gossip).
God forbid we should start a movement to be quiet in shul and daven there.
Barefoot Jewess:
LOL! I would imagine one is more likely to get a hernia than a 'high'. The fact that you have to ask what "religious experience" there is in this honour, while knowing full well what the meaning behind it is (I presume you do), well, I"m speechless. Gee, I hope you "feel good" about some of the ritual stuff!
Hagba'ah is something that needs to be done, and as such is an honor to be chosen to do it. There is nothing spiritual about it.
So, how goes it when you dance with the Torah on Simchat Torah? Is it okay to "feel good" then? Is it okay for it to be a "religious experience"? I guess David should have been ashamed dancing in front of the Ark and in fact didn't his party-pooper wife berate him? What a scandal! I'm sure he only did it to feel good.
Who was talking about dancing with the Torah on Simchas Torah? It is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
Baloney. Letting woman daven together isn't any more dangerous than a Wednesday morning tehillim group.
You are being naive. It is a major move in the chess game of Jewish politics.
Toby: "However, even though I can't help feeling joyful and optimistic when I consider the growth of Orthodox communities in America, at the same time I also feel sad about all the well-meaning Jewish women who think they are doing the right thing and are really messing up their lives."
Why is it just impossible for some people to look at others living differently and be OK with it? If you want to daven with a mechitza, good for you. If you never want to layn, good for you. If you do not want to sit with yout husband at services, good for you. If you want to tell methat I am "messing up my life" (!!) because I do all of these things, bad for you.
Why create these divisions among Jewish women? The real core of feminism, for me, is choice. (And not, I'm not talking the abortion debate here.) Choice to live your life as a woman and express yourself as a woman in a way that best fits you. Not only that, but respecting other women's choices.
How dare you, Toby Katz, accuse us liberal woman of not wanting our children? Of not caring about the Jewish heritage we give our children? Of wanting to imitate men? I don't layn to imitate men. I don't receive aliyot to imitate men. I don't do much of anything in imitating men.
Believe it or not, Toby, we also "We have husbands, children, normal lives, and the future."
R. Gil,
I meant his father. R. Mordechai Tendler is obviously quite hareidi, because of his maternal family's influence.
As for my statement on mutar and assur, I didn't differenciate between assur d'oraisa and derabbonon for simplicity's sake. Of course I am aware that things have been ossed by Rabbis to make fences around Torah.
Golda,
For curiosity's sake:
Do you actually layn Toireh, ie are you a female hazan? Or do you just say the Brachos? Or does your community have everyone read his or her own section like the teimanim?
Gil - Hagbah is the lifting of the Torah scroll and displaying it to the congregation. Is there nothing spiritual about this? A good Hagbah means lifting the Torah high, displaying it slowly for all the congregation to see, so we might feel, for a moment, the amazing power of words that have survived for thousands of years.
When the Rabbi points to my husband and calls him up for hagbah (as he often does), it seems to me an assurance that this man, who is not the most learned, not the one to lain Torah or lead prayers, still serves the community with strong arms and a strong will. I always feel proud when my husband has Hagbah.
I guess you could say I'm reading a lot into it, and I probably am, but I get a kvell in my heart anyway. And it's a moment in the service that I love.
God forbid we should start a movement to be quiet in shul and daven there.
R' Gil - I think you missed my point.
GOl: "What religious experience is there in hagba'ah? It's only because it is something new, ostensibly forbidden, that you get such a big high."
Who are you, exactly, to assume what another person's religious experience is? If the Torah Service has become so rote and routine for you men that it's not a religious experience for you anymore, maybe it really is time for the women to take over.
I can see where this is headed and the "Hagbah pinky pointing debate" is not far off ... so I'll get a head start and link to this
jordan: "If I sit with my wife, then I am concentrating on her, not on God."
That's kind of your own personal failing, isn't it? I sit with my husband during services, and my thoughts aren't about him. (And I've asked him, and his thoughts aren't about me.) In fact, I'm more likely to be distracted during services when I'm next to a chatty-kathy woman. We are all responsible, as individuals, for setting aside distractions and setting our own kavannah. If you can't do it with a woman in the room, more's the pity.
Baloney. Letting woman daven together isn't any more dangerous than a Wednesday morning tehillim group.
You are being naive. It is a major move in the chess game of Jewish politics.
Motivations are irrelevant. Give the people the benefit of the doubt. After all, no one points to Barceleno hats and suggests their popularity is a major move in the chess game of the haredization of the world. Though it is that, too...
About hagba'ah - it strikes me that perhaps for Gil this is not a religious/spiritual experience because he's done it so often. For people who don't frequently (or at all) get to touch or even look into an open Torah scroll, it can be a more intense experience. And this is the Torah - if you believe this is the word of God, why wouldn't it be a religious experience for a man as well? I don't understand the insistence by some Orthodox men that the mitzvot they perform are not religious experiences - ways of connection with God. Aren't the mitzvot the path to God? This is one of the points that Franz Rosenzweig makes so strongly in his essay, "The Builders."
Jewropean: I actually layn, about once every 4-6 weeks, and on this coming shabbat, actually! Most of the Torah readers in our synagogue are women. (There are probably 10 of us women who layn on a rotating basis and 5 men (the rabbi included.)) Apparently, about 10 years ago, before I joined, only the rabbi could layn, and then he left. It was the women who took it upon themselves to learn trop. They took classes and started classes here. It's the women who really perpetuate the art.
I've written about it quite a bit on my own blog, including my decision to layn for the first time (about a year ago). (You can check the archives (Aug '04) or I can dig up some links if you wish.)
I will always remember standing on the bimah a few days before I first layned on shabbat, practicing with the rabbi. He took out the scroll and opened it for me. I just stood there, mute. "Anytime," he said. "This is the Torah," I said. "Yes, I know," he replied. "No, I mean it's THE Torah..." I'm not usually one for profound spiritual experiences, but this was definitely one. And in my opinion, any Jew should have the right to it.
It's amazing, when you think about it, that I grew up Orthodox yet never actually saw a Torah scroll close up until I went to a Reform service. You miss a lot behind that wall (or curtain).
The irony is how men will sometimes denigrate the importance of something - like seeing the Torah! - when it is clearly of tremendous significance. Oy. Do the words "Vezot HaTorah" mean nothing? No, they mean something, but not when women want to also see it. Then all it - Hagbah, laining, actually seeing the Torah - is just "something you do", meaningless, why should we want any part of it?
Certainly R. Gil has studied way more Shas and Poskim than I have. However, the issue of WTG comes down to this: what is an appropriate mode of worship? What sort of change in practice(not even Halacha) is acceptable? Even more fundamental, what is the halachic value of an ecstatic spiritual experience? Is an increase in Kavvanah and feeling of involvment a halachic value, something that can be weighed against another halachic value? Or, is kavvanah and spirituality something "nice", but has no weight? If it does have weight, how much does it have? How many negatives can it offset? It seems to me that R. Avi Weiss, the Rabbis Frimmer, R. Berman, R. Riskin, R. Goren, and others who have given sanction to WTG either find nothing halachically wrong with it, or, find that the benefits outweigh the halachic downsides. Obviously, those on the other side feel that the halachic downsides outweigh the positives. But how much weight, if any, do they put on the positives?
Jewropean:
As for my statement on mutar and assur, I didn't differenciate between assur d'oraisa and derabbonon for simplicity's sake.
I was referring to, for example, Hoshen Mishpat 282:1.
As to the spiritual significance of hagba'ah, I guess this goes to whether you value spiritual highs or halakhic fulfillment. The mitzvah in doing hagba'ah, if there is any actual mitzvah (showing respect for the Torah?), pales in comparison to reciting the Shema or Shemoneh Esreh. Do you get a spiritual high for standing up when the Torah is raised?
Leining is publicly teaching Torah. Now that's a mitzvah!
How dare you, Toby Katz, accuse us liberal woman of not wanting our children? --GoldaLeah
This sidetracked conversation about who loves their children most is silly and ridiculous.
It is a FACT that liberal Jews do not have nearly as many children as Orthodox Jews do.
Come up with all the excuses, rationalizations, and faux explanations you want to. You guys have careers, lesbian marriages, divorces, lots of money and whatever else you want and value. We have what we value: more kids, more Jews for the future.
You guys are not even replacing yourselves, you are below ZPG. We are talking facts here. Explain it away however you want.
As for the nonsensical claim that the Reform movement is growing,even with all the fake converts they're bringing in, that's a crock.
And one other thing: when women take over, the men head for the exits. Twenty years from now there will be no male Reform rabbis graduating from the Hebrew Union College. Well, maybe a few gay men. Already the majority are women.
"You guys have careers, lesbian marriages, divorces, lots of money and whatever else you want and value."
Yeah those Reform and Conservatives. They really cornered the market on the thing they value most. Divorce. We Orthodox Jews don't divorce. And we CERTAINLY don't value money. None of us. We give it all away and don sackcloth and ashes, actually.
This sidetracked conversation about who loves their children most is silly and ridiculous.
It is a FACT that liberal Jews do not have nearly as many children as Orthodox Jews do.
That is as dumb a response as I have seen in a long time. Do I have to have 12 kids to prove that I love my children.
Toby, you were the one who introduced this narishkeit into the dialogue.
Quantity is not indicative of quality. It never has been and it never will be.
Toby, you were the one who introduced this narishkeit into the dialogue.--Jack
Absolutely not. I never said a word about who loves their kids.
Let me put what I did say in a way you may find easier to understand: Orthodox women consider motherhood to be an honorable and desirable goal in life, not something that keeps you from achieving your real goals.
I stand by my point re commanded and non-commanded acts. Tzedaka, honoring one's parents or an elder, and helping a disabled person walk across a street are all rational acts which are consummed under the rubric of chesed. A bracha on a mitzvah is only required when it is a purely religious act.A "good Jew" is someone who fulfills the mitzvos that are required of him/her and performs acts of chesed, as opposed to assuming acts which feel good to him/her. That's why a non Kohen cannot recite the priestly blessings.
In calling any WPG a move on the Jewish chessboard, Gil, (plus the rest of you who bring up all of that hashed and rehashed stuff) failed to notice that the very event that set off this whole discussion was not your run-of-the-mill WPG (are any?) Miriamsh was talking about an ad-hoc, one time, group that convened at someone's house who was celebrating her upcoming marriage. Just like Dovbear said, this was nothing more than a tehillim group. Although some people will of course look for darker motiviations behind everything.
Toby...
Women are also the majority of students and applicants in medical schools. This does not mean that men will not want to be doctors in twenty years, unless managed care makes the medical profession unrecognizable.
All this discussion is about exclusively female tefilla groups. What are thoughts on minyanim like Shira Hadasha?
As to the spiritual significance of hagba'ah, I guess this goes to whether you value spiritual highs or halakhic fulfillment. The mitzvah in doing hagba'ah, if there is any actual mitzvah (showing respect for the Torah?), pales in comparison to reciting the Shema or Shemoneh Esreh. Do you get a spiritual high for standing up when the Torah is raised?
I find this really funny. You and others presume a spiritual high is the end goal. That's just plain silly for any self-respecting Jew, and really a thoughtless and disrespectful presumption. How can anyone take this kind of argumentation seriously?????
I can't believe I just skimmed this whole discussion!
Instead of reacting to a lot of specific points I just want to make some general statements.
1. While women's tefillah is in no way perfect and sometimes gets bad publicity because of some of the more radical voices within it, I actually know some women who attend because they truly love to layn Torah. Some of them have been doing it for 20 years and are only showing minor signs of facial hair.
On a more serious note:
2. Perhaps making judgements about entire Jewish denominations based on talking to those who have left that denomination for Orthodoxy does not represent the most positive view of that community.
Some of the non-Orthodox Jews I know have become more observant and learned in Torah because of Orthodox institutions which truly welcome them for who they are (ie. Pardes, Livnot, Drisha and Chabad as well). Perhaps being so blatantly critical of non Orthodox Jews is a tremendous turn-off for non-Orthodox readers.
3. I have previously blogged about the fact that the blogosphere has provided space for Jews who might never talk to each other to connect (for the good). Wouldn't it be great if this conversation could be re-started in a less antagonistic way?
Thank you, MOW, for your contribution. Despite the angry remarks I make here sometimes, I really do appreciate the opportunity to be in conversation with people I wouldn't meet in my own Conservative shul. It makes me think and I feel like I'm learning more about all the different varieties of Orthodoxy.
Golda Leah,
You are correct that one need nbot think of their spouse while sitting next to them, but that was not really my point. conceptually, the Mechitzah brigs us to shul not as members of a family, but with a specific tool designed to seperate us from them and casts us before god as individuals.
I want to point out that it is revisionist history to claim that RYBS opposed WTG. Many of these groups were founded by communities whose Rabbis consulted with RYBS.
I know a number of learned Rabbis who say they are muttar.
R. Gil,
In reaction to Reform, they proclaimned Torah l'shama, now in reaction to to lenient paskening it is "Torah for spiritual fulfillment"?
Actually I am sorry, I don't care so much about this. I think if you just want spiritual fulfillment you can do Buddhism or wehatever. The main argument for Torah ovservance is that Torah is emes.
Just FYI, Pardes doesn't define itself as Orthodox. It defines itself as "non-denominational" (but not pluralistic) and as "halakhic".
In the words of one of the teachers there during a roundtable-style discussion about what exactly Pardes is, it amounts to "mostly Orthodox teachers creating a Reconstructionist institution."
In other words, what they want is to teach people Torah, and give them the ability to go out and decide what they're going to make of that Torah.
Wow, They really don't get it!
Excellent comments from David (Treppenwitz) and Modechai (My Day)
Gil, (plus the rest of you who bring up all of that hashed and rehashed stuff) failed to notice that the very event that set off this whole discussion was not your run-of-the-mill WPG
Correct. I suspect that, in theory, ad hoc WPGs would not be objected to if not for the inevitability of whole communities using them as precedents. The same goes for kiruv settings. Most rabbis would OK them for kiruv if people would not then say "If they can do it, how come we can't?"
What are thoughts on minyanim like Shira Hadasha?
Non-halakhic services have been around for centuries.
I want to point out that it is revisionist history to claim that RYBS opposed WTG. Many of these groups were founded by communities whose Rabbis consulted with RYBS.
See what Rabbis Riskin and Weiss have written about their conversations with Rav Soloveitchik. It is clear that he opposed WPGs.
In reaction to Reform, they proclaimned Torah l'shama, now in reaction to to lenient paskening it is "Torah for spiritual fulfillment"?
No, you misunderstood what I wrote.
R. Gil,
I do understand you often proposed over-fulfilling mitzvos for spiritual reasons, ie avoiding certain practices on Shabbos that wouldn't be a chillul shabbos.
If I am wrong there, please explain.
R. Gil very nicely, and perhaps unintentionally points out the weakness of the position opposing WTG. In one post he writes that this is a "totally new kind of sevice with no Halakhic significance", yet later he says it may be ok in a kiruv or one time only setting. He then goes on to say that it is "a major move in the chess game of Jewish politics."
So, what is it? something that is Halakhically wrong and should never be done? Something that is possibly ok on a case by case basis in an ad hoc kind of manner(although even in this situation they are not using the service with "a very high halakhic significance"), or, something that really isn't wrong halakhically, but is "a major move..in Jewish politics", and therefore is more of a hashkafa problem than Halacha?
I understand the approach that it is a hashkafa problem, but if that is the claim, then argue it on that basis, not advancing halakhic arguements that seem to be something of a stretch. If we are FORBIDDEN to pass by a "better" mitzva in favor of a weaker mitzva, then you had better be careful the next time a meshulach comes to shul, and there is a pushka there. According to the Rambam, it is better to give tzedaka when the recipient doesn't know the donor, and vica versa, so giving directly to the meshulach is a lesser mitzva than putting the money in the pushka, where the recipient wont know you. Sounds ridiculous, doesnt it. Dont pass up Shalosh shudos where there is bread so you dont miss out on bentching b'mezuman. You could make a long list of cases where we haven't seen issurim for "lesser" mitzvot. It seems to make a compelling Halachic case there needs to be a better reason than this.
Lately, I've been finding just watching hagbah (and g'lilah) meaningful, sweet and at times moving. Perhaps it's because the minyan is so small and we all know each other. Perhaps also because the man who does it regularly is a [mixed heritage] convert and this is his main way of contributing. It's very fitting for him, because he's a weightlifter and he can easily open up 7 columns. Even g'lilah has become less perfunctory lately -- both from watching my son and, even more, his temani friend who seems positively giddy sometimes at the opportunity.
When mitzvot are done in a perfunctory manner, they and we are diminished. Granted, we all (as individuals or tzibor) have our off days, but there's no reason for the hashqafah to promote routine and unreflective fulfillment of the mitzvot.
"It's very fitting for him, because he's a weightlifter and he can easily open up 7 columns."
Are anyone's arms really that long?? Thank goodness we only have three aliyot -- makes the hagbah a much easier job, and, interestingly, as egalitarian and even woman-centered as we are, it's always a guy who gets this job. It's a great way to include the just-post-bar mitzvah boys in the service.
We include post bar mitzvah boys, by you know, letting them daven for the amud.
How do fewer aliyos make hagba easier?
DovBear,
In Reform, they only read read one thirs of the parasha. Which actually proves they are less Torah-centered.
ummm just my two cents but toby reminds me very very much of some of the object of certain friends complaint about a bais rivkah teacher in crown heights. someone she hated with a passion. and someone who inspired her to leave crown heights and most of the chereidi world. just my two cents.
Actually, Jewropean, often in Reform temples they read less than one-third of the parasha. In some Conservative shuls, they keep to what's called a "triennial cycle" - reading one-third of the parashah each year, in a three year cycle. I personally prefer to hear the whole Torah reading each week, so I'm glad the shul I belong to now does so.
On the other hand, in the havurah that I used to belong to, usually not even an entire aliyah was read, but we had a 20-minute to 1/2 hour discussion about the parashah. The Torah reading was short both because of lack of skilled leyners and to give time for the Torah discussion. In that case I don't think that reading less made us less "Torah-centered," but definitely less halakhic (and the havurah wasn't attempting to define itself as halakhic).
Oh, well, now I understand why that one annoying hair on my chin that I tweeze every couple of weeks won't go away -- it's all that layning I do! And no doubt the occasional turn as magbiha hasn't helped any.
Does this make laser hair removal an act of going against God's will? What about electrolysis? Dov, I hope you'll get right on this crucial hashkafic issue.
(Otherwise, I'd like to thank all the civil Orthodox voices on here and in my community. It would be terrible to write off everyone to the right of me Jewishly.)
I posted the following comment on another blog but then realized I should have posted it here, since this is where Gil made the following remark:
"You are being naive. It is a major move in the chess game of Jewish politics."
Wow. Reading some of the comments here has been quite an eye-opener for me. I've found out that WTGs, in which I've been a devoted participant for years, are actually a major move on the political chess board, part of some dark and sinister plot against -- what, exactly? No matter. The painful fact
is that no one has ever taught me the secret codes or invited me to the clandestine inter-WTG meetings that surely must be held in some dimly lit (formerly smoke-filled) back room to discuss our nefarious agenda.
Like I say about the worldwide Zionist conspiracy: if there is one, then I want my villa, limousine and Swiss bank account. Or could it be that I'm just an unaware peon in the service of a higher, secret cause?
Well, I don't think so. Not at all.
I suppose this is a neat and painless way for some to deal -- or, more accurately, not deal -- with the issue. Just keep saying that WTGs are a political act, a conspiracy, that those who
participate in them do so not out of personal devotion but are actually out to destroy Judaism, that rabbis who support them are not sufficiently learned, etc. This way you never have to confront any issues of women in Judaism. After all, there are no problems anywhere in Orthodox Judaism, we all -- especially women -- should be happy with things exactly as they are,
and there has never been any change in halakha since Sinai.
Right? Of course right.
lessie rashi's daughters all wore teffilin and tzitzis, and where possibly the most learned jews (male or female!) ever! and in addition to this i don't know what people will think of this but reb baruch's mother (for those of you not keeping track of the nistarims names she was the grandmothere of the liozner maggid akathe maggid of liadi and the author of the shulchan aruch ha'Rav) was amoung other things a lamdan in shulchan aruch and acordint to the stories knew it better than any man alive at the time, in addition to being her husbands gemorah chevrusa!so yes womens prayer groups are more than halachicaly ok and any one who tells you otherwise is an am ha'aretz! although it is considered chutzpahdik to advertise this fact like with many other things. like tikun chatzos.
Just regarding the spritual and honoured experience of being given Hagba'ah: I don't participate in WTGs, not because I am ideologically opposed to them, but because I am perfectly happy going to an orthodox shule and sitting in the women's section, letting the men do their thing. Granted, most shules in my town are constructed in the English manner, where the men are downstairs and the women upstairs in a gallery (no visual mechitza, it's only physical).
My husband has been going to this shule since he was about 15. He sings in the shule's choir (which is a common thing in English style shules from the 50's etc) together with his father, uncle and my younger brother. He is not, however, a member of the shule because membership costs somewhere in the realm of $10,000 per year, and that doesn't even include having a seat on yom tov, which is an additional cost. So, we attend shule but aren't members.
As a result, he is rarely called to the torah. He is not called to do hagba'ah or gelilah or anything else. The only times he has ever received such an honour in shule was for our aufruf (which we obviously paid for, in addition to what he donated on the day) and once since, because we are "Associate members" for a year after paying for an aufruf there.
I can tell you, that if you were not entitled to receive hagba'ah or whatever for financial reasons, being given it once in 10 years would be a momentous occasion.
"In Reform, they only read read one thirs of the parasha. Which actually proves they are less Torah-centered."
Hmmm. We only have three readers, and some readings are only 3 lines, BUT we have a 1-hour Torah Study before every Saturday service (50 ppl attend), the rabbi's sermons on Friday nights are ALWAYS Torah-based, and during the school year we have crowded adult education every Monday and Wednesday nights. We might LAYN less, but we study plenty, for liberals 
Me,
Your post made me really sad. How awful that honors are only given to paying members/large donors. The only time this is ever a consideration in our synagogue is at the High Holidays, and even then, we give honors to "donors AND do-ers". Not all contributions are financial. Our Saturday services attract the same core group of people every week (about 12) and when you add the "every once in a while" crowd, we have about 20-25 ppl every week. We like to spread the honors around, and every once in a while I act as the gabbai, picking and choosing who does what. A young man recently moved to our fair city to attend the University. He had come from a more conservative synagogue and he was downright shocked (but grateful and extremely honored) to be offered an aliyah just a couple of weeks after he moved. He hadn't "given" us anything yet except a nice amount of respect, and we we happy to give it right back to him. I've done my fair share of complaining about my own synagogue in the past (and quite openly on my blog). The more I read about what goes on in other places, though, the more grateful to be right where I am!
wow, where i am any new commer recieves an aliya with in his first week of showing up in shul. (if he's staying) and if he's just passing through on a day when torah is read (or stuck there for shabbos) we'll give him an aliya, never mind that the bochurim who live here recieve one when they get home and one when they leave (i don't get to many though because i suffer from stage fright i'm thinking and the rabbi would rather not subject me to that more than nessicery (and yes orthomom i know i spelled that wrong!)
Oh, there's more...
Despite my husband, father-in-law, husband's uncle and my brother singing in the choir every week - and the choir is considered one of the best things in the shule by many people - my mother-in-law, husband's aunt, and I are NOT entitled to a seat in the shule on yomtov (Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur etc).
We all attend shule every week, but for yomtov, they expect us to sit in the "overflow" service while our husbands provide the beautiful davening to the main shule.
i just had a great time reading through all of this!
of course, i got really upset at some things and just can't shut up, so if it's okay i'll add my $.02:
Orthodoxy doesn’t have a monopoly on giving parents nachas. Most Jewish mothers I know are thrilled when their children get married and make them grandparents. So Mrs. Toby Katz heard from someone that here mom gave her a hard time over a personal decision. Cos that never happens in frum families either.
. I know Reform, Conservative, and secular Jewish families with four, five, and six children. When I was younger I was even friends with a secular Jewish girl who was the seventh in her family. It might be an exception, but I don’t think it’s frowned upon. If you can take care of your kids, have however many you please.
I’ve baby sat for non O families and worked at a Jewish school that has kids from non O families, and from my personal experience ALL PARENTS LOVE AND VALUE THEIR CHILDREN. They VALUE having children more than anything, including (and sometimes especially)the ones who waited til later in life to have kids.
I pray that I'll start a family early in life and have many children, but i wouldn't say i VALUE children more than a mother of two who had her first kid at 35.
Also - this isn't even a women's issue. I hope that men value their families and children more than their careers. Most workaholics I know believe that they're doing it for their kids.
after rambling, though i could at least send some links this way..
anyone interested in some opinions on women as poskot halcha (rabbis), check out an interview with Rav Gigi, Rosh Yeshiva-elect of Gush
http://toravoda.org.il/deot20-pe...t20-
persico.pdf
page 3 pdf style for questions on women
interview with the head of yeshivat maale adumim in israel, Rav Nachum Rabinovich
http://www.toravoda.org.il/nlr.pdf
the part about women as poskot halacha is on page 6 (on pdf, not paper)
both interviews are in Hebrew
I found out that now you are allowed to shower and wash your hair on the three-day yontifs, which used to be asur. Did halacha change?
No, you were too busy sleeping with your "Orthodox" boyfriend to notice.
>TK wrote: No, we are not immune
>to life's vissicitudes (sic)
I are an English major.
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