What is yiour gripe w/ Rav Shteinman. Just because your teacher played ball does that mean everyone else should ?
What dont have a little respect instead of attacking him. For G0d sake tha man is 96 years old - do you expect him to sit down and read everything about YK? Just because he doesnt follow your agenda doesnt mean you shouldnt respect a Godol Hador. Your the one thats talking tolerance all the time.
He may be 96 and he may be a Godol Hador, but that does not, nor should it, prevent DB and others from pointing out that some of his statements are, shall we say, out of touch (if not down right dangerous).
"These emperors have no clothes."
Actually, they're wearing expensive black hats.
Rabbi Moshe Weinberger, the Rav of Aish Kodesh in Woodmere, a man who typifies the majesty of sincere Torah scholarship as well as the kovod due to Torah scholars, knocks the cover off the ball every year during the Aish Memorial Day BBQ.
Go figure...the biggest mind in the room also has the best swing.
For G0d sake tha man is 96 years old - do you expect him to sit down and read everything about YK?
So why is he speaking at TU? Even gedolim need to retire eventually. There's not reason to trot out a 96 year old man.
Your the one thats talking tolerance all the time.
Tolerance doesn't mean tolerating bad behavior.
Your the one thats talking tolerance all the time.
What an evil and dishonest thing to throw in my face. I say we should tolerate DIVERSITY. I never said we should tolerate mistakes, and so on.
"For G0d sake tha man is 96 years old - do you expect him to sit down and read everything about YK?"
Your argument is a specious load of shit. Rabbi smutty-mouth Solomon got up at shalosh seudos and seconded the motion to a roomful of yes-men and glad-handing nincompoop conformists who care less about their students than about propping up their evil empire of lies, deception, and spiritual abuse.
If their paragon of vision is a 96 year old Torah scholar who had no idea what goes on in the mind of an american yeshiva bochur then he has no business dictating policy and setting educational mores.....and the organization has no business endorsing his views.
In an attempt to be light-hearted my husband's advice on how to survive fifth grade is to take a lot of class trips.
Maybe their suggestions are not so bad after all.
If they’re not going to do anything to stop abuse, then keeping teachers away from kids playing ball and putting an end to class trips, may actually be a great idea.
Just sick!
P.S. I was 100% certain that they would address the issue, however I was expecting the solution to be a new ban on cell phones. What was I thinking?
Some class trips enhance Torah. A visit to the Egyptian art section of the Met is certainly one of them, or to see a local gadol. The Jewish Museum might be useful for teenagers.
Is there some halacha against viewing the Egyptian art because so much of it is likely to be idols?
While you are entitled to your own opinion, I am too. And that is: You will never reach the Kedusha that's on a hair on a pimple on R' Shteinmans pinky toe.
IMHO to write "These emperors have no clothes" about a 94 year old Tzadik who has done NOTHING else in his entire life besides toil in Limud Hatorah is sickening.
Perhaps the disfunctional organization known as Torah Umisorah ought to be blamed for having R' Shteinman Shlita at their Convention, when he clearly does not have their views.
He is entitled to be an "extremist". That's his Daas Torah that he has gotten from learning 20 hours a day for 90 years, not your idiotic Shita which you've aquired so beautifly from BLOGGING for a few years.
What was Torah Umisorah thinking? R'Shteinman Shlita has the Bnei Brak Shitos which are CLEARLY not those which the Day-Schools across the USA wanted to hear!
An apology on this is needed, Mr DovBear.
Take care,
YW Editor.
Also more "fun" class trips such as the Lag B'Omer thing that Bais Yaakov went on as a school promote friendship.
>What was Torah Umisorah thinking? R'Shteinman Shlita has the Bnei Brak Shitos which are CLEARLY not those which the Day-Schools across the USA wanted to hear!
While that's true, its as fair a question as any why he would deliver the same message before every audience, or why he would not himself realize that his message cannot be delivered before an American audience, if he feels that he cannot 'moderate' his remarks and so say things he doesn't believe. He should have 1) declined or 2) just said "Bracha vehatzlachah!"
"if he feels that he cannot 'moderate' his remarks and so say things he doesn't believe. He should have 1) declined or 2) just said "Bracha vehatzlachah!"
No. The JERKS which FORCED him into coming to the convention, should not have asked him.
He does not have to change his Shitos for ANYONE. He is entitled to speak his mind when asked to speak. If they wanted to hear somthing different they should have asked Dr. Rabbi Norman Lamm to speak.
YW Editor.
YW Editor is correct, Rav Shteinman is talking about what he knows. But SW I think especially is up in arms because the yeshivas are not on such a high madrega that teachers not playing ball with students will mean any substantial improvement. From common sense many of the teachers are not on such a high madrega that learning from their students and being kind to them would hurt.
IMHO to write "These emperors have no clothes" about a 94 year old Tzadik who has done NOTHING else in his entire life besides toil in Limud Hatorah is sickening.
You obviously don't understand the phrase "These emperors have no clothes"
That's not an attack on the emperor, but on the masses (ie TU) who uncritically except everything they are told.
>No. The JERKS which FORCED him into coming to the convention, should not have asked him.
>He does not have to change his Shitos for ANYONE. He is entitled to speak his mind when asked to speak.
Of course, but a speaker needs to know his audience, as well as what effect his words are going to have, which is why it is so problematic to fulfill the mitzvah of tochacha. Furthermore, ezehu chacham? Haroeh es ha nolad.
Now, perhaps R. Steinman should be cut slack for he is very elderly. Maybe you are right and the fault with his public displays of extremism lies squarely with the oylam who decided to turn him into a Godol in his upper '80s, while in reality he should spend the twilight of his years (may he live to be 120) out of the limelight. A persons most productive time is well before his mid-'90s. And that doesn't mean the kavod directed towards him should be diminished.
Nevertheless, the only limmud zchus, really, is his advanced age.
>If they wanted to hear somthing different they should have asked Dr. Rabbi Norman Lamm to speak.
Ah, yes. Either Maran Rav Shteinman Shlita or Dr. Norman Lamm, the two choices for a yeshivish oriented organization. Might as well take R. Steinman, you mean.
Rabbi smutty-mouth seconded these opinions and there wasn't an open revolt.
Don't tell me or anyone else that TU is not in agreement with these "ideals." They are delusional and actively work to spread the delusion.
From Wikipedia:
Most frequently, the metaphor (Emperor has no clothes) involves a situation wherein the overwhelming (usually unempowered) majority of observers willingly share in a collective ignorance of an obvious fact, despite individually recognising the absurdity.
It was a comment on group think, not on Rav Shteinman.
You owe ME the apology, YE Editor!
If they wanted to hear somthing different they should have asked Dr. Rabbi Norman Lamm to speak.
Can you say false choice
I think the issues are being confused.
Indeed to be found guilty of rape and/or mishkav zochaor it requires two witnesses over the age of 13, and penetration.
However, who cares what technical transgression the Rabbi committed! The thought itself (Hirhur) is already a biblical transgression!
The question here is not Bain Adom L’mokom, I’ts Bain Adom L’chavaro! The question is, did he harm a child?, Did a child suffer because of the rabbis actions. The laws of be penetration/ witnesses don’t apply.
If 15 independent children complained about a particular individual the Sanhedrin may not be able to execute him for mishkav zochaor, however they sure as hell would keep him of the streets.
If the child’s statements account for nothing, I wonder if the Rabbis protecting him would hire him as a baby sitter? After all if Torahs Emes says that he still maintains his Chezkas Kashrus, being Choshed B’ksharim is a serious offence!
I agree with no class trips, better just give the day off.
Class trips are a waste of time.
He didn't say that. He said in the past such things were not really done however, he said that he recognizes an ais la'asos and as such, they are probably quite useful for today's students. He said that it need to specificly be determined by the teacher.
His opinion with regard to ball playing is based on traditional torah sources (the picture that I have of a malach hashem tzivakos does not involve swinging bats) and there have been many, many succesful rabbaim that have influenced thousands of students without playing ball and rather by acting the part of a link in a chain going back to moshe rabbainu. That being said, a rebbe that can't recognize when a situation calls for him to use other methods with specific students is not really up to the task of teaching, and RALS surely appreciates that.
Also, calling a major TC by degrading names is not recommended and it doesn't help prove your points either.
>there have been many, many succesful rabbaim that have influenced thousands of students without playing ball and rather by acting the part of a link in a chain going back to moshe rabbainu.
Have there been any successful rabbeim for American kids who discouraged ball playing?
Things that R. Shtainman said that you won't see on DovBear:
Hitting has no place in a classroom. A Rebbe that hits will only teach kids to hit.
There is no such thing as "a chutzpadika kid". If a child is acting chutzpadik, it is the rebbe's responsibility to understand that there is something else causing it - too much pressure, family problems, etc.
A rebbe is NEVER excused for publicly shaming a student.
Even in private the only effective way to influance a student is with love.
Have there been any successful rabbeim for American kids who discouraged ball playing?
He didn't discourage ball playing. He discouraged TEACHERS from playing ball with their students.
This is probably snobbery, but from what I read about these big yeshivas/day schools it is hard to see a positive difference between them and a public school EXCEPT that Torah is being learned. Educational theorists keep saying that schools are models of society. If Jewish schools are models of the kind of society we want to have the influence will stream back to the home and the educators would not have to worry about vice versa.
Things that Rabbi Shteinman said that you won't see on DovBear
Outstanding! Made my point about the ideal society very well.
A school In my neighborhood recently Instituted
1. Cameras (real and fake) in many hallways
2. All Classrooms have a glass window in the door. Teachers were told that the window cannot be blocked with art etc. In short a person in the hallway can peek into a classroom at any time
I know HTML better than this. Really.
Things that Rabbi Shteinman said that you won't see on DovBear
Outstanding! Made my points about the ideal society and learning from students very well.
my old rosh yeshiva played ball with his students. excelent pitcher!
then on he was lubavitch and everyone knows us lubabs are a little odd 
(he also davka took his students on feild trips.)
More Loshon horah and bizui chachamim from Dov BEAR
> the picture that I have of a malach hashem tzivakos does not involve swinging bats
But it does have the malach wearing a black hat, right?
DB:
I agree with your point although I might have made it with a little more respect. As a father of two sons, one of whom has graduated high school and the other a junior, it is pashut that in these days a rebbe can connect much more easily if he plays ball with the boys from time to time or can talk about the latest Mets game.
Still Wonderin':
While you correctly mentioned Rav Moshe Weinberger's hitting ability (softballs, not chas v'shalom, kids), you neglected to mention that you run on his throwing arm at your peril.
On a more serious note, Rav Weinberger was a fabulously successful high school Rebbe for over twenty years and often played ball with the boys from as one of the ways he connected with them.
They may mean well over at Torah Umersorah but they are soooo lost.
"Things that R. Shtainman said that you won't see on DovBear:
Hitting has no place in a classroom. A Rebbe that hits will only teach kids to hit.
There is no such thing as "a chutzpadika kid". If a child is acting chutzpadik, it is the rebbe's responsibility to understand that there is something else causing it - too much pressure, family problems, etc.
A rebbe is NEVER excused for publicly shaming a student.
Even in private the only effective way to influance a student is with love.
LkwdGuy | Homepage | 05.22.06 - 12:04 pm | #"
LakewoodGuy, You're kidding.....right? Did he also announce that the sky is blue and that circles are round? If this is what's passed off as innovations in Jewish education at the Torah Mesorah Convention then they've got more problems than we even know!!!
given what i heard in the comments of this blog?
apperently it needs to be said and he said it. kudos to him. though i wish we'd heard comments about the other abuse
But sometimes people need to hear that even in Bnei Brak, the sky is blue and circles are round.
This is DB at his best!
Hi moC, I forgot to say that I was at the 1-0 game last week.
LakewoodGuy, You're kidding.....right?
No. I'm not kidding.
Explain something to me. You rant about the fact that no one spoke about abuse. Is that really something that needs to be said? Answer: Yes it is. Reason: It happens.
So when I point out that other areas of bad teaching practice were discussed, why do you have a problem with that? Because it should go without saying? Of course it should, but it happens.
I have a good friend who's a teacher in Bais Yaakov. And I hear awful stories about how the girls behave in class. How do you punish outright misbehavior? I challenge you to come up with ways to correct girls' behavior WITHOUT shaming them in any way. It's a struggle for her too.
R' Shteinman gave good advice. In both public and private schools, using shame as a way to curb behavior is rampant.
If you ever read a parenting book, or a marriage counseling book, most of the advice in there is "common sense". Absolutely. That doesn't mean that people still don't need to hear it. It gives them chizuk.
And hey - Dr. Phil's and Oprah's entire careers are based on telling people to do what they already know they should be doing. Why is this so different, and so shocking?
And honestly. I disagree with Dovbear that the topic of abuse should have been brought up. I think it's pretty "obvious", as stillwonderin' says, that abuse is wrong, and anyone suspected of abuse should be suspended without pay. Should we start giving a crowd of thousands intimate details about what abuse is? I think that the "rabbi should never shame a student" falls under that category of "no abuse".
You're also expecting too much from a man that didn't even want women in the same room as he was. You want him also to say the word "sexual"?
Why do we expect one person to be everything to everybody? If you want a lecture on abuse, ask a social worker to speak. If you want an insight into gemara/halachah/torah matters, as a gadol to speak. Etc. RenReb said it better than I could have.
No. The JERKS which FORCED him into coming to the convention, should not have asked him.
I see. He's just a puppet.
Teachers of Torah should not play ball with their students
[FWIW my all-time favorite teacher of Talmud would regularly play basketball with us at recess, and my second favorite teacher of Talmud would make a few appearences each spring on the softball diamond.
Dov, this, clearly, explains why you and most of your readers are atheists and born-again chri...., I mean apikorsim and minim.
Ball games are contrary to a proper praeceptorial gravitas. If, instead of playing ball with you boys he had swacked you repeatedly with a rod at the slightest error, you would now be a well-balanced even-keeled Talmudist, a pillar of the community, istead of this cynical deviant who advocates such sins as tolerance, liberalism, and truth - justice - and the American way.
Your favourite Talmud teacher's greatest error is showing you unruly boys that he was human. Talmud teachers should never be human. Never ever! Rigid orthodoxy requires zombie-like discipline!
I have a good friend who's a teacher in Bais Yaakov. And I hear awful stories about how the girls behave in class. How do you punish outright misbehavior? I challenge you to come up with ways to correct girls' behavior WITHOUT shaming them in any way. It's a struggle for her too.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Having been a high school student pretty recently myself, I will grant that we can be a bit rowdy. BUT
1)This never excuses public humiliation. One teacher once shamed me in front of the entire class for writing an article for newspaper in my notebook instead of taking notes. To this day, I struggle to forgive her. Her tactic accomplished nothing except for making it extremely difficult for me to feel close to her.
2) Almost nobody misbehaves for the fun of it. If we are misbehaving in your class, it's probably because we are bored. Change your teaching style and maybe we'll behave better.
3) You shouldn't be a teacher if you don't know how to discipline students effectively. I'm not saying this as an insult to your friend or anything, but not everyone should teach and not everyone should teach right away. It is a challenging job. But that doesn't mean you have to go about it wrong.
I know that kids can be pretty evil, but there are a lot of teachers out there who can make them behave without public humiliation. Not saying it's easy, but it's definitely possible and it avoids crushing the child's self esteem. There's a reason that humiliation is considered like murder- it really has some awful effects.
i heard that one rosh yeshiva once used kapital 613 as punishment. he would have the student write it out in roman numerals and then add up the students answer to see if it was correct. this had happened somany times he had the darn thing memorized. (both regular AND in roman numerals)
You want him also to say the word "sexual"?
If we're afraid to even say the word, how are we going to address the problem?
I never understood why "sex" is a dirty word. We learned Kesubus, and kept hearing about "relations." What's the difference? You're still talking about the same damn thing!
Such a gadol can't even say "sexual." So what, we should punish "relational abuse?" That's ridiculous.
And honestly. I disagree with Dovbear that the topic of abuse should have been brought up. I think it's pretty "obvious", as stillwonderin' says, that abuse is wrong, and anyone suspected of abuse should be suspended without pay
A session telling teachers how to identify the signs of a problem, and telling them how to stay above suspicion would have been appropriate.
More Loshon horah and bizui chachamim from Dov BEAR
Do you know how to read?
Things that R. Shtainman said that you won't see on DovBear:
If I had known about it, I would have said it. (did you notice the hat-tip to SW?)
Look at it this way. The yeshiva world made a lot of compromises when it came to america in deference to the background of those they were trying to educate. For all those that have already been hooked into yeshiva society, these compromises are no longer needed. So rav shteinman has come to remove them.
On the topic of child abuse, he just didn't have anything to add. Watch out for child abuse and may zoboomafoo be with you.
You know it's amazing that the convention is being discussed now on 3 blogs all going by sw's acount of events
4 blogs
This kind of feel-good pop-psych expectations are the reaosns why we are becommin g a nation of softies and are going to hell in a handbasket. We're worried about our precious feelings that the hungry people of the world will be upon us, defeat us, and have us for lunch (figuratively, of course) while we're still worried about being humiliated. Our conquerors will not worry about our feelings.
1)This never excuses public humiliation. One teacher once shamed me in front of the entire class for writing an article for newspaper in my notebook instead of taking notes.
As she should have. Your business was to be paying attention to her class, or at least pretendsing to do so.
To this day, I struggle to forgive her.
How about forgiving yourself for not taking advantage of the education she was offering you?
Her tactic accomplished nothing except for making it extremely difficult for me to feel close to her.
Since when is there a need to "feel close" to your teachers? Their function is to shovel knowledge into the brain, not be a best friend.
2) Almost nobody misbehaves for the fun of it. If we are misbehaving in your class, it's probably because we are bored. Change your teaching style and maybe we'll behave better.
Unh,Unh. It;s the students job to learn the material, whether it's boring or not. That's one of the most important life lessons you can learn from school -- how to force yourself to do stuf that is realy, really unpleasant. Believe me, that's what most of life is about. Another secret I learned over the ages: Education works best when the student teaches himself. Theteacher is only there to provide some structure, and ideally to answer the occasiona question. The teacher is not some sort of entertainer.
3) You shouldn't be a teacher if you don't know how to discipline students effectively. I'm not saying this as an insult to your friend or anything, but not everyone should teach and not everyone should teach right away. It is a challenging job. But that doesn't mean you have to go about it wrong.
The only problem is that most of the effective tools of discipline (such as corporal punishment and shaming) are now off limits becuase we're too worried about peoples feelings.
I know that kids can be pretty evil, but there are a lot of teachers out there who can make them behave without public humiliation.
No there are teachers who can make sue they get assigned the kids who are easy to teach.
Not saying it's easy, but it's definitely possible and it avoids crushing the child's self esteem.
The only self-esteem that's worth anything is accomplishment in the face of great adversity. If you make it too easym then people have a false sense of self-esteem and will crumble when the going gewtsd rough (which it always will, sooner or later.)
There's a reason that humiliation is considered like murder- it really has some awful effects.
You know, the military has special schools where they teach torture -- not not how to administer it (though now, maybe they do), but how to take it in case you're captured by the enmey. After all, if you get captured by Al-Qaeda, they won't worry about your self esteem. So our saoldier are taken by the US government ant deliberately tortured so they will know what to do when the time comes for real.
The world is a horrible, evil, dangerous place out there, and we need to train our kids to be tough enough to withstand it.
**************** this is the abuser from angrysouls blog.
Edited By Siteowner
CA, tobie is right.
humiliation is NOT a good teaching tactic.
there are other effective ways of discipline
Cross posted from Hirhurim:
Has anyone asked the obvious question (at least to me): If R' Scheinberg didn't actually say that crazy comment, was he even consulted, and if so, what was his reaction? What did he do, or not do, about it?
I just posted my thoughts on the overall issue here.
CA- Wow. Quite a response. Let me first explain that I was not a bad kid. I was a pathetically good kid. I mean, classic goody-goody and everything. The reason I was doing other things in class was because I was bored out of my brains. As was everyone else in the room. Humiliating the students for being bored when you can't teach to save your life is not a good tactic.
I'm not saying that I was right to have been doing other things. But if I once, after an entire year of having my brains drip out my ears and ooze onto the floor, chose to stop paying attention, maybe there was a better tactic out there than humiliating me in front of my classmates. Maybe. And when I said that it made it hard for me to feel close to her, that's because I was attempting not to say that it decreased my already low levels of respect for her as a teacher and a person.
I wish that all my teachers had endorsed your vision of "shovelling information" into my brain. Maybe I would have been spared years that were largely wasted and rife with boredom. And I wasn't bored because the information was dull; I was bored because no information was being provided. Or at least, not enough information to fill a class period. When you're standing up in the class blathering on and providing absolutely nothing to occupy or fill the minds in front of you, you're probably asking for problems.
Also, when teachers are given the same group of students and some of them succeed while others do not, it seems logical to conclude that the fault lies in the teacher rather than the student.
As for your point that we should humiliate our children to toughen them up for the world....I find that just a little disturbing. Should we also beat them to teach them about pain? Or lie to them to prepare them for disappointment? Or tell them we hate them to brace them for that "horrible, evil, dangerous place" that we call the world?
Look, I'm not saying that my life was ruined forever by humiliation. But it sure as heck accomplished nothing in terms of discipline or education. I am somewhat amused to hear myself written off as a mushy-gushy softie, since I am one of the less merciful people I know. I believe in limited corporal punishment and so forth. I just don't happen to think that humiliation is effective nor efficient.
DOVIE. STOP. BASHING. GEDOLIM. ITS NOT OK.
I didn't bash any gedolim!!! Please learn how to read!!!
Gedolim that easily bashed are maybe not gedolim.
I don't know why we are so shocked when TU presents mainstream charedi (israeli) philosophy. Look at Kiryat Sefer in Israel there is not a single basketball court.
On another note Rabbi S should but does not realize that if rabbeim do NOT play ball with kids then the major role models will be the non- jewish coaches in the TU schools.
The best way to see whether a Rebbe is one you can emulate is by watching middot on the court.
OH, FYI. There's an interesting program in Brooklyn Tuesday (5/23) "Who Am I", a stimulating symposium on tznius. Includes "divrei chisuz u'bracha" by Rav Scheinberg. It's at 2 locations, so I suspect this may be a recorded program:
7:30 PM @ Ateres Chynka, 129 Elmwood and Toras Emes, 1904 Ave N.
humiliation is NOT a good teaching tactic.
In certain cases where the student has done something they should be ashamed of, then humilation/shaming them is perfectly appropriate.
CA- Wow. Quite a response. Let me first explain that I was not a bad kid. I was a pathetically good kid. I mean, classic goody-goody and everything.
Yeah. me too, except on the few occasions when I did break some rule or another, that's when the teacher would come by. 
The reason I was doing other things in class was because I was bored out of my brains. As was everyone else in the room. Humiliating the students for being bored when you can't teach to save your life is not a good tactic.
I still maintain it's not the teacher's job to entertain the students. It'sd the students' job to either pay attention or learn how to pretend you're paying attention. It's avery very important life skill, oe that I, in fact, used today at our weekly torture session staff meeting.
I'm not saying that I was right to have been doing other things. But if I once, after an entire year of having my brains drip out my ears and ooze onto the floor, chose to stop paying attention, maybe there was a better tactic out there than humiliating me in front of my classmates. Maybe. And when I said that it made it hard for me to feel close to her, that's because I was attempting not to say that it decreased my already low levels of respect for her as a teacher and a person.
After this incident, did you continue to not pay attention? (or at least did you learn ways to not pay attention and not get caught?) If so, then the teacher's tactic was successful.
And remember, a student doesn't attend a class to respect their teacher, so wehther or not you had any respect for this person is immaterial.
Also, in addition to not paying attention, were you doing your school assignments and otherwise taking some initiative on your own to learn the material?
I wish that all my teachers had endorsed your vision of "shovelling information" into my brain. Maybe I would have been spared years that were largely wasted and rife with boredom. And I wasn't bored because the information was dull; I was bored because no information was being provided. Or at least, not enough information to fill a class period. When you're standing up in the class blathering on and providing absolutely nothing to occupy or fill the minds in front of you, you're probably asking for problems.
Well, of course I'm at a disadvantage becuase I dn't know what the teacher was trying to teach, but in my high school classes, I recall that they all had a syllabus, and an enterprising student could do the assigned reading, make sure that all the homework and other deliverables were handed in on time, and then zone out during the actual class. I agree that lecturing is the least effective way to actually teach people, but someone sitting in plain view of the teacher doing something else entirely is so obviously sending a hostile and insultimg message to the teacher that no wonder one got the reaction they did.
Also, when teachers are given the same group of students and some of them succeed while others do not, it seems logical to conclude that the fault lies in the teacher rather than the student.
Not at all. Students have different levels of talent, motivations and social skills. I wish people would stop blaming teacher for the falures of the students. In the end, it's the responsibility of the students to learn the material.
As for your point that we should humiliate our children to toughen them up for the world....I find that just a little disturbing.
Maybe, but the world is a disturbing place. And I think that most peoples' psyches aren't that fragile that they can't take a little abuse. (Not real abuse, of course)
Should we also beat them to teach them about pain?
Well, people in military intelligence,Navy SEALs, etc. do that (So I was told by a friend who was in Navy Intel during the Vietnam War).
Or lie to them to prepare them for disappointment?
Nah, you're right, schools don't need to do that, kids get lies from everywhere else in adult society. On the other hand, it won't make much of a difference.
>Gedolim that easily bashed are maybe not gedolim.
Like Moshe Rabbeinu. When Korach bashed, he couldn't even answer. He "fell on his face".
Not every dissenter is Korach.
Tobie -
You completely misunderstood my post. I meant that my friend DOES NOT shame her students. Though if I were in her shoes, and one student passed a note to a friend and the two of them started giggling nonstop, I would have thrown them out of class into the principal's office.
My friend? Did not want to "shame" the girls. She told them to quiet down. Once. Twice. And then she told them to leave and go home. Quietly. And surprise! The next day the kids AGAIN were chutzpahdik.
I am in awe of her, because she is treated abysmally as a teacher, but will not yell at her students in front of the rest of the class.
Listen. I grew up in the Bais Yaakov system too. I agree with you that I had teachers that humiliated myself and other students, quite WRONGLY. It's wrong to tell a student in front of the whole school that she is an embarrassment to her family. It's wrong to upend personal belongings onto a floor in front of an entire classroom.
What I was trying to say in my previous post that although teachers SHOULD NOT shame students, some are blameless in really wanting to. And they can get chizuk from R' Shteinman, because it's one of those things that are so easy to slip and find yourself doing.
Curiously, I'm not sure where the yardstick should lie. What is considered true shaming? Yelling at someone in front of the class? Sending to the principal? Hmm...
CA, last semester was a class like that. It was turtle-slow. I was so prepared to be completely bored that I could have gone to class more often and appreciated the review. I got the B+ that I deserved. Appropriate lesson: Following in the book is a good practice. If the teacher ever deviates from the book you can write it in the margin.
BTW the text was Patterson and Hennessy, an excellent book.
CA won't know what that is, so here is the link to Amazon
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