don't expect many comments. this post is too long and thoughtful.
Not really on your point, but it is not "just" the Shulchan Aruch that permits women to do shchita, it is an explicit Mishna. In fact, two. One for Chullin and one for Kodshim.
For that matter, the agreement with the Rema is pretty universal among Ashkenazi posekim.
For that matter, the agreement with the Rema is pretty universal among Ashkenazi posekim.
But with other women's issues, some LWMO poskim (such as Mendel Shapiro and women's laining) have been willing to buck the near universality of previous poskim when they deem that the psak is based on social mores and those social mores have changed. That leaves an opening for such poskim to permit shochatot.
Well, I'll try to kick things off.
Definitely echo Bray, err Badad, a very thoughtful post. I hope more people will read it and comment on it.
However, I think we have found another area you and I disagree on. I fully support female shochets and wouldn't care if it lead to a schism.
You say the issue is a social one and not a halachic one. I agree. You argue that employing female slaughterers would cause a needless divide over nothing more than social considerations. Here I disagree.
I have two points: 1) we're already socially divided, just no one acknowledges it and 2) we can't look to the right for a "more purse" religious guidance.
MO and Chareidi people do not interact socially. They only come together when forced to for a simcha, you're stuck somewhere, you need to buy something in their neighborhood, etc. We dress differently, we have different attitudes on what it means to be frum, we have different values, we have different attitudes to the outside world, we have different attitudes about science and technology, we have different customs and chumrot, we respect different rabbis, we have different attitudes towards our leaders and rabbis. I could go on. We're already divided. It's practically a tragedy when a chareidi youth goes Modern and MO people aren't any more happy when their child comes all "frummed out."
The difference is that MO have a serious insecurity about their level of frumkeit and are thus consoled that at least it's a move to the right and not a move to the left. And this is the problem. That MO views charedim (even if they don't want to admit it) as more "pure" as practicing a holier form of the religion. This is complete and utter BS and yet the belief stands.
And this is why the MO are held shackled by the right to the point where they're unable to freely implement halacha!! It's complete nonsense and yet you see it in so many other areas of frumkeit, where MO takes its cue from the right.
Which takes me to my second point: we cannot allow the right wing to control Orthodoxy. Furthermore, we cannot allow an issue as fundamental as the rights of women (or other classes of Jews) to be determined by an antediluvian attitude. I hate to make comparisons like this, but it's like saying "we can't free the slaves because the south will secede." Yes, I know it's extreme, but the attitude is the same - you can't be held hostage by people who have nothing more to stand on that social convention which they've been propping up for years.
My attitude is screw 'em. We have next to nothing in common anymore anyways. I think abandoning them on the right might do some good.
On first consideration, seems sensible but frustrating.
However, if someone doesn't want to eat in my home because he has a narrow view of halacha - I need to change my own standards?
What if that person's halachic decision is informed more by social considerations than halachic ones? In that case, he is rejecting me based on social considerations, and the idea that one should modify their practice based on social considerations is best directed at the other person!
dys,
I fully support female shochets because it would lead to a schism. We need to redraw the lines!
I don't see the grounds for forbidding women to shecht. Its allowed in all the normative halacha books, so say "we don't do it" but not "it isn't allowed."
a shochet is a communal position and women cannot hold communal positions.
WADR to the Rav, bullshit.
So all the arguments against women doing anything seem to be based only on social considerations, not solid halacha.
Fixed your typo
BTW, dys, if you have a post coming about triangle k or tablet k or any other of these "not recommended" hashgachas I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to read it. The lack of information beyond "not recommended" is infuriating.
In terms of Hebrew National, I was in Boston recently and made a trip to the Butcherie (under supervision of Rabbi Mordechai Twersky) and was shocked to find Hebrew National meats. Unfortunately, I was too well-mannered to ask about it (or buy it), but my curiosity has been piqued ever since.
Unusual for me to be criticized from the left....
JS, I'm less concerned about a schism with charedim than I am with mainstream modern orthodoxy. If a LWMO rav permitted this now, that's where the line would be drawn, between LWMo and the mainstream MO whose communities they are firmly embedded.
Note also that I didn't say it should never be allowed, but it would be unwise to introduce it widely at this time. Events like my hypothetical Drisha dinner could pave the way.
DB, if the Rama says it's assur, then most Ashkenazim would view that as forbidding it. Yes, the Rama's reason is that "we don't do it" but his conclusion is that therefore "it isn't allowed". What you or I think is not my point here. My point is that most Ashkenazim will see that as a solid barrier.
dys,
Do you think MO actually distinguishes between "centrist" and "LW" parts of MO?
If a LW MO hashgacha started doing this, do you think they'd just be considered "not recommended" without a reason given or do you think the issue would be publicized and force a divide? Personally, I think they'd smear the person and claim they weren't stringent in other matters and therefore shouldn't be relied upon.
Either way, if a schism were to occur, I think it would be interesting to see how MO would split up. I think a lot of MO are just pretending and have more RW and chareidi leanings. I also think many conservative have more MO leanings and that it would be interesting to see where everyone ends up.
In terms of Hebrew National, I was in Boston recently and made a trip to the Butcherie (under supervision of Rabbi Mordechai Twersky) and was shocked to find Hebrew National meats. Unfortunately, I was too well-mannered to ask about it (or buy it), but my curiosity has been piqued ever since.
JS | 07.07.09 - 2:27 pm | #
Don't worry, most of us in the Boston area are also too well-mannered to ask about it. There is a bit of a divide up here centered on whether you: (1) buy prepared foods from the Butcherie; (2) buy prepared foods from the Butcherie, but not red meat prepared there; (3) buy only raw foods from the Butcherie, including meat that is repackaged there; or (4) buy only food that is in its original packaging there. *sigh* At least it's the only store of its kind here, so, as far as I know there is no category (5) don't shop there at all.
If there were universal acceptance of female slaughterers and mashgiachs, would those just become other jobs that men didn't feel like doing?
I'm much more interested in the people who do the work than I am in the community acceptance of the people who eat the food.
Priss, why should a man bother with a job that women are doing? (see: Nursing, teaching school, secretarial work, etc)
[/sort of snark. A point is being attempted.
DB - ah, historical analogies? is that allowed in a Torah True(TM) comment thread? 
The question is if I should be allowed in a Torah True(TM) comment thread
Mashgichot (women mashgiachs) are already common in many Orthodox communities, especially outside of the greater NYC area. Shochatot currently are not.
don't expect many comments. this post is too long and thoughtful.
You were right. OK, next time I'll write a post on something sensational...
> why should a man bother with a job that women are doing? (see: Nursing, teaching school, secretarial work, etc)
All of which were originally done by men. It’s a good point, especially as food preparation is already seen as a women’s area. On the other hand, killing things is more of a manly thing...
killing things is more of a manly thing
Next thing you know they'll want to grill the meat too...and then where will we be?
Lining up with your plates?
JS,
So would you eat meat slaughtered by a shochetet?
Tzip,
Special for you:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/69995/...meat-
commentary
dys,
I don't see why not - if the woman is trained and makes the exact same cut that a man would make, what's the difference? I don't find the Rama's rationale convincing and anything based on previous social conventions should be scrapped and rethought.
the baal hatanya cites nashim daatan kalot as the reason, ie because there are many complicated halachot and women are stupid, therefore women may not shecht meat.
... i'm not quite sure what to think of it.
not what ddtan kalot means
fine, lazy is even less true.
So Bray, what does it mean?
that women have "weak wills" to quote ramban and the usage in the mekorot in the gemorah.
It means that Judaism of certain eras had cultural bias built in, including attitudes towards women. That doesn't mean that these ideas are eternal truths.
I find it so ironic that on the one hand we're told about women having greater binah (insight) and having less of a yetzer hara amongst other superior traits, plus we have tons of stories in the Torah and midrashim indicating the same and yet, we still have this nonsense about women being "weak willed" though come on, the literal translation is weak minded.
yeah, but the usage of that term does not even remotely resemble being stupid...
However, it seems to me that "nashim daatan kalot" was probably a greek contamination... 
we have to much of that, and i suspect the greeks did as much damage to yiddishkeit as they did by sending the sciences back into the dark ages for 1400 years.
JS:
It's not irony. They have 2 different meanings.
(neither of which I am providing on this thread)
Comparing Weiiss to the Rav is like comparing an Ameba to an Organian( for you Star Trek fans)
Permission for women to Shecht:
(You're just not going to beleive this)
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpa.../pdfpa...=1170&
pgnum=149
(See the next page as well)
Ari Enkin
Repost the link please.
Love this piece. I wonder, however, if there is such a thing as centrist MO? Everyone I've met who is MO is either LW or just doesn't bother with the politics of it all (does that equate Centrist?) or not MO, even if they define themselves that way.
On an unrelated point -- I recently wrote a paper about that phrase "nashim daatan kalot" in BT Kiddushin 80b...perhaps I can condense it (and anonymize it?) for DB?
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpa...=1170&
pgnum=149
Thanks for posting this. I had been wondering about this for quite a while. I had posted the question on my blog, but no one seemed to have a clue. Though we are still left with questions, this seems like a good start to an answer.
KA,
Would love to see it. I think it would make a good post.
I thought the Conservative Hashgacha was the "O-C" (An O with a small C in the middle of it), and the "O-R" for Reform.
There are a number of C rabbis and va'adim who provide supervision for restaurants, but none that I am aware of who supervise actual shechita.
DYS,
I have worked as a mashgicha many times, for our local Va'ad and once for the Star K.
I remember mentioning this in the course of a conversation to a newcomer in our area, and he was absolutely shocked: how can a woman be a mashgiach?! As far as he was concerned, it was against halacha.
Kal va-chomer, shochetot...
Not my view, of course. but then again, I think kol isha has been blown way out of proportion too. Little by little, we are approaching the way of the Taliban. Who has the courage to stop it?
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