The article is important, but should be put in perspective.
Please note:
The article was originally printed in the Baltimore Jewish Times. A publication with an extreme left wing bias (and a mostly anti-religious bias).
I am unaware of the paper as I'm not from that area. I'm not sure how this is subject to a left-wing or anti-religious bias. They didn't say Hebrew National was kosher and I don't think it's an secret that there's a lot of politics in the kashrut business.
Were there any facts you contest or believe to be untrue?
An interesting point was Rabbi Ralbag's statement that it is physically impossible to find enough animals for Hebrew National's operation that would be glatt.
I wonder if glatt is even worth it as it's not even required (and according to the article many animals listed as glatt likely aren't) and is probably doing nothing more than driving up the cost of kosher meat.
I do not have enough information to contest. But the source gives me doubts as to its absolute accuracy.
While much of the article may be true, I cannot separate the chafe from the kernel.
Perhaps, one of the DovBear readers has inside Kashrus info or a friend who can read and critique the article.
Question:
Does R' Ralbag eat Hebrew National?
(The article doesn't say so I think he does not)
Does R' Ralbag eat Hebrew National?
Don't see how it's relevant as even if he doesn't, maybe he holds by only glatt.
(The article doesn't say so I think he does not)
Come on, you must realize the logical fallacy here: The article doesn't say, so I think he does.
What about Rabbi Abadi's quote:
"Rabbi Ralbag is a G-d-fearing man and if he says it’s kosher, you sure can eat it."
Isn't kashrut supervision all about being trustworthy? Why should we not trust Rabbi Ralbag? Is he lying? Is he oblivious? Why is he less trustworthy than other people in the kashrut industry?
JS:
It is not Glatt, by R' Ralbag's own admission and R' Abadi said "If you eat non-Glatt it is kosher"
I want to know if R' Ralbag eats non-Glatt.
(I know that R' Ralbag is God fearing, I think he has another intention here, but I am waiting to post it...)
The cynics would say מי ערב לערבך= "who co-signed for your co-signer"?
Rabbi Fink, maybe I'm being dense, but I just don't see what it matters if he eats glatt.
Would you trust the hechsher of someone for chalav stam who only eats chalav yisroel?
I have to admit I was surprised by the article that the only issue is non-glatt and that it's "unreliable" (whatever that means).
I had heard tons of rumors about Hebrew National including that the shechita was improper and that they stunned the animals first.
Its an interesting article, but why on earth does the writer spend the first half of the article discussing the history of hot dogs? It reads like a school paper with a word minimum.
DH,
lol. I dunno, I thought it was interesting.
JS - They didn't say Hebrew National was kosher
They did say it. From the article -
"Today, with a work force of 500 people in the U.S., Hebrew National is the largest kosher meat processor in the world"
In my house, we do not eat Hebrew National. But we also don't eat most Chassidishe shchita because there's been too much shmei drei with many of them, and we don't trust them anymore. It's not acceptable for us to trust a shchita that is only supervised by a Rebbe and a few of his select followers rather than by an organization that has at least some accountability to the community.
I knew a story once that occurred in an out-of-town community where an Orthodox Rabbi generally esteemed as a TK gave a Hashgakha for a local poultry plant(let's call it Cluckers)that processed "Geh-Pahreta" chickens i.e. the birds were sprayed with boiling water prior to soaking and salting to loosen the epidermis and make for "cleaner" feather flicking.
The lions share of poskim hold this treifs the chickens as it congeals the blood in the blood vessels such that subsequent soaking and salting are inneffective in the halakhically mandated blood-extraction/leeching.
The Rav HaMakhshir relied on a daas yakhid to give his imprimatur on these chickens. He himself would NEVER eat them admitting that the was relying on a far-out kulah. His rationale was that for the clientele buying from "Cluckers" the choice was not between Empire and Cluckers but between Cluckers and Purdue.
The ensuing brouhaha was worthy of fictionalized treatment by I. B. Singer.
Something to think about:
I know a food sciences professor who, although not religious, is considered an international expert on mass production of kosher meat. He is often called by national hashgachas for advice on slaughtering plants.
He told me there are major issues in every single slaughtering plant practically ranging from improper tension in the animal's neck (apparently this is critical for good shechita) to animals suffering terribly on the way to slaughter (being hoisted by a machine that picks up the animal by one leg and carries it over to the slaughtering area). He said a lot of slaughter is done outside the country where standards are far worse and the meat is then brought here.
Mark,
Let me clarify: they didn't say it was kosher for Orthodox Jews. In other words they didn't outright say Orthodox hashgachas are completely wrong. They said it was kosher for Conservative and that there was not a clear answer from Orthodox hashgachas on the issue other than non-glatt.
Bray,
Do you think your story is analogous to someone who provides a hechsher to chalav stam but only eat chalav yisroel?
Is glatt vs non-glatt a daat yachid issue?
No not exactly analogous. glatt vs non-glatt is TTBOMK a Sefardi-Askenazi issue hence the proliferation today of "Bet Yosef" AKA "super" Glatt.
I was just providing a precedent case for rabbis who for whatever reason might not eat from their own supervised products but have some kheshbon or another to rationalize it being "kosher enough" for others.
I find the glatt issue interesting as I never consciously thought "I am keeping a chumra to eat only glatt." It's simply the only thing that has ever been available to me with an acceptable hashgacha. Similarly, we have no family minhag to only eat glatt and I know in Europe there was no such minhag - it was too costly to throw away an animal that wasn't.
It's a chumra I imagine most Americans have never thought about before.
Bray, in the same vein, certainly I would think everyone would acknowledge (I hope) that Hebrew National is better than Oscar Meyer from a kashrut perspective (and apparently a taste perspective as well according to the article).
JS - It's a chumra I imagine most Americans have never thought about before.
Perhaps like many of the other things we do today that our [recent] ancestors didn't do (separate seating weddings, etc).
So what I'm saying/accusing? is maybe Rabbi ralbag relies on a lot of kulos for HN (hence the Star Ks "unrelaible" assesment) rationalizing that for "the crowd" eating HN it's HN or Oscar Myer/Boars Head. Not HN or Meal Mart/ Abbeles and Heyman.
I know many rum Yeshivisha who even "before the fall" would noy touch Aarons (Rubashkin)with a 10 foot pole...and not because they were protesting the alleged animal cruelty and or labor exploiataion at the plant.
rum =frum
“ I know many rum Yeshivisha who even "before the fall" would noy touch Aarons (Rubashkin)with a 10 foot pole”
Well, the rabbi of rum yeshiva was known to be pretty strict:
http://theworldaccordingtomax.fi...tain-
morgan.jpg
Bray,
Maybe you're right. But why use the term "unreliable"? This is what really bothers me as it casts potentially unfair aspersions on Rabbi Ralbag. They should simply say "Rabbi Ralbag certifies meat that is not glatt and relies on X, Y, and Z kulot which we do not hold by."
Wouldn't this be far better?
The fact that they don't do this and obscure the entire kashrut industry behind a veil of secrecy is what bothers me.
He does have a long beard and a nice hat.
always indicia of saintliness. 
Re Glatt:
It is like a "kabbala" that one accepts upon themself and they do it 3 times, it becomes a chazaka and they must keep it. The thing is, it's like a kabbala that orthodox Jews made in America now that we can afford to do so. So you can't really opt out as an individual...
E. Fink,
I find the article to be not exactly glat!
Here’s and example.
“That term is used to describe a more expensive and complicated form of rabbinical supervision that requires the lungs of a ritually slaughtered animal to be carefully scrutinized for any imperfections.”
That’s not true.
The lungs are always inspected for imperfections to insure the animal is kosher because if the lungs have a holes, the animal is traif.
Non glat means an imperfection was found but was deemed to be kosher, glat means there was no imperfection found to begin with. (or a very, very small one)
The real issue is, over the years the meat industry split in two and the non glat meat industry became the industry where leniencies were permitted because it was understood to be sold to people who were not very concerned. There many other leniencies that can be found in non glat meat like stunning, antibiotics, method of salting etc. the glat part is the least of it.
But I do agree, its strange that the same people that are makpid with glat are not mokpid when it comes to chalav stam. Chalav stam requires kashering, non-glat dosent!
Re R' Ralbag:
I am fairly certain he does not eat HN. And it is not an indication of his saintliness if he does or does not eat glatt. It is an indication that the mainstream orthodox in America do not eat non-Glatt and R' Ralbag himself adheres to this. Thus, the BJT is being disingenuous when it chalks up the lack of orthodox people eating HN to politics and vagaries when we don't eat it because it is not Glatt and R' Ralbag himself ould not eat it.
I believe his rationale for providing the Hechser is primarily motivated by wishing that those who do eat HN be eating "kosher" meat. As opposed to prior to his arrival the prevalent tarfus was being machshil less observant Jews who could at least be keeping halcahic kashrus and are not makpid on glatt.
Thus, his hechsher ensures that those who are not makpid on glatt will be eating halachically acceptable meat.
The rest of us are stuck with Glatt meat.
I always thought there was a kavana aspect to establishing something through a chazaka. Besides, why can't you undo it the same way people go from chalav yisroel to chalav stam (I think hatarat neder).
The cynics would say מי ערב לערבך= "who co-signed for your co-signer"?
The Bray of Fundie | Homepage | 07.10.09 - 10:45 am | #
Do you question the reliability of R' Abadi?
JS:
Nope. You don't need kavana to establish a chazaka.
In this case its even worse because it's a national chazaka...
So let's say the economy continues to downturn and people can no longer afford glatt meat. As a nation how would we go to non-glatt?
I also don't quite understand how the entire nation was obligated, but that's another story.
So if I go to the store and chalav yisroel cheese is on sale and I buy a whole bunch of it and eat 3 dishes with this cheese and no other dairy I now have to keep chalav yisroel?
E Fink - It is like a "kabbala" that one accepts upon themself and they do it 3 times, it becomes a chazaka and they must keep it. The thing is, it's like a kabbala that orthodox Jews made in America now that we can afford to do so. So you can't really opt out as an individual...
I don't buy it. What about people that cannot "afford to do so"?
And if so, would this apply to other things as well, for example, making a large public bar mitzvah seudah is a kabbala for Jews in America because now we can afford to do so. I'm sure others can come up with other examples.
Rabbi Fink-
Do I sound cynical to you.
Honestly, this is a question for a "higher authority".
The question is:
Why are American Jews halachically required to keep the chumros of Glatt meat?
Bray:
Check your email.
Mark,
There is a difference between a chumrah (being strict) and a minhag shtus (foolish custom)
Also,
When you say a hechser is "unreliable" it doesn’t necessarily mean that the Rabbi on the top is a liar. A hecsher is only as good as its weakest link so a problem anywhere causes it to be unreliable.
1. Sometimes the mashgiach/rabbi is to trusting.
2. Sometimes the rabbi doesn’t fully know where to look for problems.
3. Sometimes the rabbi doesn’t fully understand the production process.
4. Sometimes the rabbi will rely on a posk that you don’t.
An many more….
There is a difference between a chumrah (being strict) and a minhag shtus (foolish custom)
Could have fooled me ... and many others 
Think:
I think saying "unreliable" is a cop-out.
They should just say it is NOT GLATT!
Rabbi Fink, EXACTLY!!!
It's what I said above:
They should simply say "Rabbi Ralbag certifies meat that is not glatt and relies on X, Y, and Z kulot which we do not hold by."
Was wondering if people saw this and had thoughts:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...?
a=31428#515030
The problems he mentions are at every major national hashgacha apparently - according to him the problem is simply overlooked as it's too costly to do otherwise and it's seen as a necessary evil for mass produced meat.
JS,
If people stated eating non glat meat, glat meat would become cheaper and non glat meat would go up in price.
The reason why glat meat is so expensive, is because when a cow is deemed non glat, it must be sold at very low price because there is no market for it.
If there was a market for non glat, then the price would go up for non glat and that would make the price of glat cheaper.
OK, time to chime in.
1. I know all the Rabbonim quoted in this article personally.
2. If I ate non-glatt, I would eat Hebrew National
3. A major Mashgiach who used to work in large processing plant that has since closed for legal reasons told me that the meat in the US is NOT glatt according to the S.A.
4. The points made about Drakes and Coke in the article are absolutely correct
5. Before we all state how wonderful the Star-K is, ask yourself if you would change the settings of your oven on Yom Tov
JD
No market for non-glatt? How about every single person in the country who doesn't keep glatt kosher?
This is typical kosher industry nonsense used to explain the high prices.
Millions of people eat Hebrew National which is non-glatt and it is very inexpensive.
Triangle K was originally deemed "unreliable" because Rabbi Ralbag was willing to rely on certain kulahs that other more politically powerful organizations (e.g., OU) were not. That said, R. Ralbag also holds by certain chumrahs that others do not.
There also was an issue of "coverage" - 20 years ago, many argued that R. Ralbag simply could not have been able to properly supervise (or have others do so) the vast scope of products allegedly being certified. One can say the same thing about how the big three (OU, Star-K, and Kaf-K) manage this organizational delegation today. And it also gets into the question how often one must visit as a mashgiach for different types of products.
Most people today were simply brought up hearing that "triangle K" is no good without knowing why, and how much was politics vs. halachic dispute.
There are OOT Orthodox communities that DO hold by Triangle K in its entirety or for a specific subset of products.
Beyond that, R. Fink, I am skeptical of the idea of a "national chazakah" of glatt. First, there are vast local/regional differences. I live in a region of the country where the non-glatt kosher food providers outnumber the glatt ones. More important, a lot of non-glatt kosher butchers and establishments were driven out by questionable (at best) political, legal and "communal" efforts to destroy them. I can not fathom that a national chazakah for glatt can be created by coercion and shady economic/legal practices.
Wow. One of the joys of the USA is how much food one can eat. I happily eat HN and I don't even think about keeping glatt at home or abroad.
This is a discussion which could only take place in a country where kosher is easy. But the reason it is easy is because of HN and companies like it. Don't kill your goose with its golden egg...
The reason why glat meat is so expensive, is because when a cow is deemed non glat, it must be sold at very low price because there is no market for it.
Aren't animals that are not deemed kosher (let alone non-glatt) sold to non-kosher processors? Seeing as about 99% of the country doesn't keep kosher, that's a pretty big market.
R' Fink, did your Zeideh in the Alter Heim eat Glatt?
R' Chaim, yours?
JD
>It is not Glatt, by R' Ralbag's own admission and R' Abadi said "If you eat non-Glatt it is kosher"
To give this context, it's important to note that Abadi is Sephardi, so he follows Bet Yosef, which requires "glatt" al pi din. He's saying that if you're Ashkenazi, and you follow the Rema (as you frankly should) then there's no reason not to eat Hebrew National.
“If people stated eating non glat meat, glat meat would become cheaper and non glat meat would go up in price.”
This is wrong. Allow me to introduce you the laws of supply and demand.
“If people stated eating non glat meat, glat meat would become cheaper and non glat meat would go up in price.”
Most people in the U.S. eat non-kosher altogether. By your reasoning, then, all kosher meat should be cheaper than non-kosher meat.
The thing that always bothers me about the term "unreliable" as it is used in hechsherim is that it creates a tremendous amount of lashon horah, rechilus, and often a direct blow to a person's business.
Of course this is not the case to a large company like Hebrew National, btu as a community we have gotten ourselves into the habit of dismissing hechsherim because of rumours and heresay. I wonder if statements from the Star K that a competitor (which another hechsher certainly is) is "unreliable" may be causing other to commit much more serious Torah prohibitions than the relatively insignificant minhag of Glatt.
The article was originally printed in the Baltimore Jewish Times. A publication with an extreme left wing bias (and a mostly anti-religious bias).
Yeah, it's so anti-religious that it publishes a parsha of the week column written in rotation by all the community rabbis, including the black hatter Orthodox ones. Remember, even in an Orthodox stronghold like Baltimore, 80% of the Jews are NOT Orthodox, and not all the Orthodox are right wing.
These sort of baseless accusations by an Orthodox rabbi cited above kind of diminish Orthodoxy's credibility, don't you think?
Yes, DH. Well said. More examples of Lashon Horah and Rechilus based on heresay and nonesense.
Aren't animals that are not deemed kosher (let alone non-glatt) sold to non-kosher processors? Seeing as about 99% of the country doesn't keep kosher, that's a pretty big market.
Isn't that also what they do to the hindquarters, sell them to the non-kosher market?
I wish the Star-K would explain what "unreliable" means.
There was a story a number of years back where Heinz Pork and Beans was labeled OU Pareve.
Does this make them unreliable?
This is a discussion which could only take place in a country where kosher is easy. But the reason it is easy is because of HN and companies like it. Don't kill your goose with its golden egg...
Yes, remember that the next time you're stuck in a place like Uvalde Texas. Among the 5-gallon buckets of lard offered for purchase by the Tejano homemakers for the preparation of tamales, you can find Hebrew National hot-dogs (as well as Vita pickled herring, Maneschevitz wine, and a small kosher shelf with jars of gefilte fish and matzah. I don't know who buys the stuff, but I don't think they'd stock it if nobody bought it.
This is a side from all the other products with hechshers scattered around the store.
This shtus with the hechshers is ALMOST enough to make me reconsider vegetarianism...
I stand behind my comments.
It is not baseless, it is not rechilus and since there was a toeles it was not Lashon Hara.
Do not bully me.
The BJT has a long history of anti-religious zeal. Yes, once every 10 weeks or so there is a Parsha column by an orthodox rabbi. But that does not "kasher" their magazine.
If you read my words I was very careful about what I said.
The article was originally printed in the Baltimore Jewish Times. A publication with an extreme left wing bias (and a mostly anti-religious bias).
The BJT is extremely left wing - that is not unsubstantiated, nor lashon hara AND has a mostly anti-religious bias - that is this reader and many other reader's opinion that I felt was necessary to know when reading an article BASHING an entire industry of Kashrus and mocking orthodox Jews for not following R' Ralbag's non-Glatt hechsher.
I would love to see more information on the whole glatt thing. Is it really just a chumra, or was eating non-glatt a kula? It does make a difference.
James:
It is irrelevant if my great grandpa are glatt only.
I do.
Tzip:
The Kashrus shtus is TERRIBLE. But we have come a long way from the 30s when it was completely driven by money and politics.
And we are miles ahead of Israel where there are tons of politics and schisms.
Count your blessings!
Rabbi Fink,
Can you give some examples of the BJT being anti-religious?
For those of us unfamiliar with the BJT, can you put your assertion into perspective? For example, I have heard many Orthodox Jews in NY repeat the mantra that the NY Jewish Week is "left wing" with an "anti-religious bias". However, I have never seen any such bias. To guage your perspective, tell me, to you agree or disagree with that assessment of the Jewish Week?
This is a discussion which could only take place in a country where kosher is easy. But the reason it is easy is because of HN and companies like it. Don't kill your goose with its golden egg...
100% true. There is a huge hakarat hatov due for this, plus the fact that they apparently offer a vastly superior product at a low cost as compared to non-kosher brands (I wish the same could be said for Orthodox-accepted kosher brands).
when reading an article BASHING an entire industry of Kashrus and mocking orthodox Jews for not following R' Ralbag's non-Glatt hechsher.
I didn't see any bashing or mocking. I did think they called them to task for not being specific and either refusing to comment on other hechshers or hiding behind "unreliable."
What did you think about the very end when it indicated Star K doesn't hold by OU and vice versa?
I remember the story many years back when Rav Tibor Stern ZT'l of Miami who was considered a gadol was the Rav Hamachshir of Hebrew National. The late Rav Shulem Rubin Zt'l who at that time was the New York State official Commissioner of Kashrus found some serious violations with Hebrew National which touched off a storm of serious controversy. I remember that Rav Rubin was beaten up by some goons (allegedly hired by Hebrew National) because of his actions that caused HN to pay a steep fine and suffer a huge loss of revenue. That entire story feft a very bitter taste in the mouths of frum Jews and I doubt that any on them would ever eat Hebrew National again. Rav Stern's reputation also suffered tremendously but Rav Rubin came out as a hero.
“The BJT is extremely left wing - that is not unsubstantiated”
Im totally unfamiliar with this publication. Can you give an example of an article of theirs you consider to be extremely left wing?
E. Fink:
I apologize for my comment. I did not mean to offend. In fact, I have never read or seen the magazine that you mentioned and you may be 100% correct in your assessment.
I spoke too quickly based on things that I have seen in other communities where individuals and organizations have been dismissed out of hand as being anti-religious or in some way trying to tear down the Orthodox way of life when often they are merely trying to spark conversation and reevaluate long held assumptions.
Again, I apologize.
Okay, for all of you wishing to learn more about BJT.
I have not lived in Baltimore for over 2 years now. When I was there, I read it on occasion and this was my feeling.
I can't cite now. But I can assure you that most orthodox Jews would not feel there is very much Jewish in the Jewish Times.
As far as left wing goes, their politics are very left wing and again, if you read it, you can see. Just like you can see if you watch Fox News that it is right wing...
Rip me if you want because I cannot cite, you don't have to believe me. But if you know someone in Baltimore, call them and ask them for more info.
As far as left wing goes, their politics are very left wing and again, if you read it, you can see. Just like you can see if you watch Fox News that it is right wing...
Whoa whoa whoa, one second there. FoxNews is fair and balanced.
Doughboy:
No worries...
Can you give some examples of the BJT being anti-religious?
My sentiments, exactly.
I've been reading the Baltimore Jewish Times for 30 years, and I've never seen anything in it that's anti-religious. Sure, they don't follow the Yated Neeman or Hamodia part line, and they do run ads for non-kosher restaurants, but then, they serve the entire Baltimore Jewish community, which includes Reform and Secular Jews.
And I read the article in question, and while one might come away with the idea that the Big Kashrus might be an emperor with no clothes (or at least clothes that aren't as z'niyus as they claim they are), I didn't get any impression of mockery of frum Jews.
Doc:
You are entitled to your opinion.
I felt the article was too gleeful about reporting on the Kashrut Mafia.
(I actually agree with them on this, but if I was reporting it would sound a little more tragic than congratulatory.)
I would love to see more information on the whole glatt thing. Is it really just a chumra, or was eating non-glatt a kula? It does make a difference.
dys | Homepage | 07.10.09 - 1:36 pm | #
DYS:
My understanding, which is far from complete, is that Glatt is a requirement in the shulchan aruch, but not the Rema. Ashkenazim, therefore, who generally follow the Rema, should not insist on glatt, and, indeed, through the early 20th century, did not. Sephardim, Hungarian, and Chassidishe Jews, on the other hand, always kept glatt.
During the mid-20th century in America, glatt became a code word for extra frum, and, as part of the "anything you can do I can do frummer" movement combined with the desire to be yotze kol hade'ot, led to all of the big hechsherim became "glatt by default." There was some protest against this from rabbis at the time (Rabbis Soloveitchik and Breuer both had fairly caustic remarks about this trend), but that's pretty much the state of things.
WRT Hebrew National: I think there's no question that there's a mix of both halachic and business/ political concerns which prevent one of the large name agencies from certifying it, and more Orthodox Jews from eating it.
As far as left wing goes, their politics are very left wing and again, if you read it, you can see. Just like you can see if you watch Fox News that it is right wing...
And one's POLITICS is relevant to one's OBSERVANCE of kashrut how exactly?
Hebrew National was under 'Rabbi" Tibor Stern for years...he was a notable liar and fraudster dating back more than 60 years.
WRT Hebrew National: I think there's no question that there's a mix of both halachic and business/ political concerns which prevent one of the large name agencies from certifying it, and more Orthodox Jews from eating it.
I have yet to hear any complaints other than "it's not glatt." I understand the major hechshers wouldn't authorize their constituents to eat it it because they all now hold that glatt is required. But, they should at least come out and be honest and explain what's going on instead of saying "it's unreliable" or refusing to comment.
If they're just holding out in hopes of stealing the hechsher from triangle k like they did for Coke, it's just disgusting.
For example..he would sign his name as the Rosh Av Bais Din of a Bais Din that did not exist!
JS: "But, they should at least come out and be honest and explain what's going on instead of saying "it's unreliable" or refusing to comment."
Although I wholeheartedly agree on the unreliable issue, I do understand the no comment policy. The OU likely has very minimal knowledge on products that they do not themselves certify. They have likely not been to the slaughterhouses, factories and what not. Declining to make a comment either way is the most honest, responsible thing to do in that situation.
What others need to realize is that "no comment" should not be taken as a tacit disapproval. It is exactly what it claims to be. It becomes a problem when they say something to the effect of "since we don't know and we're not certifying, you should be wary."
This happened in Toronto a few years back when a Krispy Kreme opened under the KVH hechsher. The COR recommended that people not eat there despite having zero presence at the store and KVH being (in my understanding) a reliable hechsher. Even if it isn't, coming out with a statement condemning another kashrus organization with no knowledge is deplorable, IMHO.
Doughboy,
Yet, this is what happens all the time. If I stumble upon a product with a hechsher I never saw, I call up my rabbi and ask him about it. Depending on who he's affiliated with, he then calls his rav who is affiliated with someone else going up to some kashrut authority. The kashrut authority has no idea what goes on in a particular factory or plant or restaurant. All he knows is who is authorized to give an unqualified yes to and who he can't. And thus, so much of kashrut is a combination of trust and politics.
We once had to get a psak on some products with only a "k" on them. We went up through OU channels and they said it was OK after much fussing and providing what information we had from the "k" side, but not to advertise they said such.
Point is, if I had gone though chof K channels or star k channels, etc and hadn't put on such a fight and provided so much information, I would have gotten a flat out no.
Very true JS. A large part of me wants to start trusting Hechsherim in the same way that I trust individuals who invite me over for Shabbos. If someone tells me that they keep a Kosher home, I don't investigate, I take them at their word. Is there a good reason why products are different?
As far as left wing goes, their politics are very left wing and again, if you read it, you can see. Just like you can see if you watch Fox News that it is right wing...
And one's POLITICS is relevant to one's OBSERVANCE of kashrut how exactly?
Anonymous | 07.10.09 - 3:32 pm | #
Nothing. I never said it did. The comment was about the reliability of the magazine, not Kashrus.
I was just saying that they are very left wing politically AND they have a slight anti-Religious bias. It is not uncommong for those two go hand in hand. Thus apply grains of salt as necessary.
It's a good point how we differentiate between a person's home and some company's factory being overseen.
For all you know the person doesn't keep track of which knives are meat and which are dairy or maybe doesn't have one devoted to pareve. Maybe they don't warm things up on shabbat properly. Maybe an ingredient they use isn't one you'd use.
I think there's a conception (no idea if it's true or not) that modern food production facilities are crazy complicated and if someone isn't paying attention for 1 second the entire line can become treif. The ingredients are so complicated and come from different sources and machines are used to make more than one product, etc etc - the perception is that without a hashgacha everything would be treif even something simple like rolled oats.
What's interesting is that it seems to me that 9 times out of 10 when you have a "slip up" in the kitchen it's not a problem or can easily be remedied. I don't understand how when things scale up that this is no long true.
I think, after writing one post and prompting another, both related to meat, I should confess that I'm a strict vegetarian, and have been for 18 years. But it is a fascinating topic, and relates to kashrut at large.
I grew up in Brooklyn. It was only as adult that I realized that untreated packaged rice and the like don't need a hechsher.
dys,
Totally agree. I think hechshers have become more of a hindrance in some cases than a benefit. People are so used to hechshers, that if something doesn't have one it MUST be treif. Other than fruits and vegetables and water, I can't think of anything people just pick up and put in their grocery chart without thinking twice (and of course, water now has a hechsher).
Consider the below from Rabbi Abadi's sons:
Message: Are juices from juice bars kosher to drink, like fresh squeezed fruit/vegetable juice or wheatgrass juice?
I think the commercial juicers and wheatgrass juicers are just rinsed with water, but i'm not 100% sure.
and if it is fine to drink, then what about the bugs? pulverized bugs are not considered bugs?
Thanks!!!
Reply: Yes
Correct
No Problem
Correct
Your WElcome
AA
See: http://www.kashrut.org/forum/vie...t.asp?
mid=48663
I'm not a halachic expert, but I wouldn't even DREAM of getting a drink at a juice bar that only has fruits and vegetables and nothing is cooked. And the crazy thing is, I couldn't even tell you WHY I wouldn't do it. And yet, Rabbi Abadi's son's answer seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Maybe Rabbi Fink or someone else who is knowledgeable?
"It is irrelevant if my great grandpa are glatt only.
I do."
It's possible you do. More likely you misinterpret "glatt kosher" as actually meaning it is glatt when all it means is "we're really really kosher."
One point has not been brought up here.
Hebrew National must have known that by choosing Rabbi Ralbag much of the Orthodox community (a fairly large group of consumers for kosher items and growing) would not use its products.
The question then is why they did not choose the OU, as for example Manischewitz wine does? There must have been a business reason; either because non-Glatt is different and cheaper, or because there are some other koolahs involved.
I suspect that this may have to do with how the products are handled after shechita, including shmiras shabbos in delivering, whether the meat is salted within 3 days or washed, and if washed, how so, and by whom?
Clue,
No idea about any kulahs. It may be as simple as OU (and other "major" hashgachas) do not provide a hechsher for non-glatt. Rabbi Ralbag is quoted in the article as saying it is impossible to find enough glatt animals for Hebrew National. So, I would think even if Hebrew National wanted the Orthodox business it would be a non-starter for the glatt reason.
R' Fink originally wrote about the BJT:
(and a mostly anti-religious bias).
After he got some pushback, he now writes:
they have a slight anti-Religious bias.
Come on Rabbi, how much additional pushback do we need to get you to change some more?
and, please give examples of this "bias."
Good Shabbos!
HN used to be in the same class as "shofar" and "best's", which no one in the OJ community ate. It's interesting that HN decided to moe more in the direction of the Orthodox, while Best's and their associated brands went out of business. Is there anyone left in that niche?
Offwinger said: "There are OOT Orthodox communities that DO hold by Triangle K in its entirety or for a specific subset of products."
What does OOT stand for?
Nathan's is still left in that niche
with Joey Chestnut's hashgacha.
OOT = Out Of Town
Anything not in New York, Lakewood, Monsey, Baltimore, or Monroe.
Okay Doc,
You are right. You caught me. Except those two comments were in different contexts.
When I first commented I stated my opinion (mostly biased).
After a little bullying I tempered my comments so that more people would agree that at least there was a slight bias.
To that bias I have provided the obvious glee in their discovery that there are politics in Kashrus (as per my comments above).
JS:
R' Abadi is a tremendous talmid chacham.
His website is very meikil. This does not make him woring, it makes him different.
By the way, the website is run by his sons. Not THE R' Abadi.
As far as Juice places go, there are issues of grape juice as well as "protein shots" etc. If it is a guy with a standalone juicer (such as you see in EY) there is no problem if the juicer is rinsed. If it is not rinsed you are "taking a chance". So then it depends on how you value the risk / reward...
Clue:
It is all about Glatt / non-Glatt.
Anon:
Yes of course I only eat Glatt vegetables, drink Glatt spring water and use Glatt tablecloths.
I meant what I said, I only eat Glatt Meat as per the halachic standards of Glatt outlines in Shulchan Aruch and administrated by the hechsher authorities.
I was excited the first time I heard of R Abadi's website. Finally, someone who wouldn't rule l'chumra for chumra's sake.
But subsequently, I found that the forum wasn't always clear and questions were often was sloppily answered. Maybe there's too much exactitude in halacha where kashrut is involved, but the remedy is not unclear answers. In one case I noticed a wrong answer given by "CYA" (I guess one of the sons) that had to be corrected by a reader. CYA acknowledged his error, but still, it seems like not enough time is being devoted to answering the questions.
Sorry - meant to put the link for that example of the wrong question being given on R abadi's site:
http://www.kashrut.org/forum/vie...8744&
highlight=
Though some answers, by "AA" (is that the father or his other son?) are quite detailed:
http://www.kashrut.org/forum/vie...9978&
highlight=
The father is not involved.
SEE: http://www.kashrut.org/forum/# and click "Who answers all these questions?"
REF,
Sounds like they claim to be giving their father's pesakim.
Shabbat shalom
E' Fink,
I am sure you know the history of Glatt Meat in America. The entire concept was a means to break the union stranglehold on kosher meat. There is a group of american Jewery that did not accept Glatt and they are entitled to eat Kosher products. R' Ralbag is doing a tremendous service to these people by ensuring this product is Kosher according to Halacha.
Therefore, it actually is relevant what our Mesorah is regarding Glatt.
A guten Shabbos Koidesh.
JD
James:
I'm aware of the history.
And I agree 100% R' Ralbag is doing a tremendous service to those folks. Never said otherwise. In fact I think I may have even introduced the idea on this thread!
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...?
src=hsr#515047
Good Shabbos Everyone!
How did everyone turn into a bunch of perushim that the Talmud warned against?
This Shechita, that Shecitah. This Brand K, this OU this K, this Parver, this Rav yes this Rav no. There is something to be said for minhagim, but Judaism has lost its mind totally when so much effort is devoted to a Kashrus which either should be Kasher for all or kasher for none.
Shabbat is the Seventh day, its not Monday for some or Friday night till noon on Saturday. Kasher is Kasher all else is Gavah.
It all boils down to everyone acting like Shaul Hamelech. He also thought he knew what Hashem wanted as regards Agag.
Kill em all, all the people and all the cattle. And Shaul thinks that Hashems Hechser on his actions is not good enough, he is gonna be Glatt Mehadrin and save the cattle for Korban.
Next will be Glatt Oxygen lest the smoke particles from a pig barbecue enter your lungs.
The best franks are made by Abeles and Heymann.
And they're Glatt Kosher too.
The best franks are made by Abeles and Heymann.
Yes, those are the best packaged ones widely sold in the USA. However, there are better ones available at certain butchers around the world (the butcher in Zurich on Lowenstrasse, for example). Too bad, it's not convenient for me to get them weekly, monthly, or even yearly :-(
The best in the USA was produced by Fleishmann and Heymann in Washington Heights up to about 15 or 20 years ago.
In terms of kashrut.org the questions are answered by his sons using their father's methodology, sefer, and previous psaks. Anything difficult or that they are unsure of is asked to their father.
Regardless, it's not perfect and there aren't enough questions answered.
However, it provides an interesting approach towards kashrut that should be looked into by others instead of just dismissed as a "kullah."
btw, he is more machmir than others on other halachic issues and maintains that under "asei lecha rav" if you want his approach to kashrut you need to take his approach on other areas of halacha - you can't pick and choose.
A publication with an extreme left wing bias
It's an extreme left wing paper?
Really?
You mean it has articles encouraging people to protest the WTO, talks about bringingdown "The Man," advocates anarcho-socialism, calls on readers to deface government property and harass polic officers and service members (along with articles claiming that the police and the military are always in the wrong and that they are altogether evil, publishes long Marxist screeds, etc.?
i had long suspected that most slaughtered meat was treif, but oh my gosh...
and the scary thing is, my knowledge of the processes involved concures with the reports that its all treif, so then what do i do for kosher meat?
and also, there is another question of hefresh min hatzibbur.
"I had heard tons of rumors about Hebrew National including that the shechita was improper and that they stunned the animals first."
Why don't you contact Rabbi Ralbag and ask him? His shul is Congregation Bnai Israel, 335 E 77th St., New York, NY 10075-2208
(212) 879-1558.
In any case Rabbi Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg z'tz'l permitted stunning animals prior to shechita.
"More examples of Lashon Horah and Rechilus based on heresay and nonesense."
Notwithstanding what is written by the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch, the Orthodox world has decreed that the Torah prohibitions of lashon hara and motzi shem ra are to be abrogated when it comes to kashrut.
"This shtus with the hechshers is ALMOST enough to make me reconsider vegetarianism."
My wife and I are now vegetarians.
"I doubt that any on them would ever eat Hebrew National again"
HN is now owned by ConAgra Foods, a huge conglomerate with hundreds of products under kosher supervision. So if they are rational they would also not eat Hunt's tomatos, La Choy soy sauce, Wesson vegetable oils, or Peter Pan peanut butter.
In any case, Rabbi Ralbag had nothing to do with this.
"FoxNews is fair and balanced."
ROTF!!!!!
"Is there a good reason why products are different?"
No.
Well, actually, maybe. An Orthodox rabbi should be considered *more* reliable than some baal habayit like me.
"It was only as adult that I realized that untreated packaged rice and the like don't need a hechsher."
And neither does aluminum foil!
"I wouldn't even DREAM of getting a drink at a juice bar that only has fruits and vegetables and nothing is cooked"
I don't usually drink non-pasteurized juices. But if you aren't worried about that, I don't see why most such establishments would not be fine from a kashrut perspective. (Very few use grapes.)
"The question then is why they did not choose the OU"
ConAgra has many products under OU or OK supervision. I would suspect that the reason is that the OU and OK won't certify non-glatt meat.
I don't usually drink non-pasteurized juices. But if you aren't worried about that, I don't see why most such establishments would not be fine from a kashrut perspective. (Very few use grapes.)
And, of those that DO use grapes, it's unlikely that any of them offer them to idols before juicing them.
Yes. Someone really needs to look into the whole grape juice and wine by non-Jews issue. It's really absurd given today's mass-production of these drinks.
If I recall correctly, Rabbi Abadi allows grape juice (not sure about wine) if it was pasteurized as it's no longer fit for libations.
Yes. Someone really needs to look into the whole grape juice and wine by non-Jews issue. It's really absurd given today's mass-production of these drinks.
If I recall correctly, Rabbi Abadi allows grape juice (not sure about wine) if it was pasteurized as it's no longer fit for libations.
I really don't get it.
Beer was used in Egyptian and Mesopotamian offerings. Some groups in Africa still use beer for offerings. Various groups like Voodoo and Santeria make use of liquor in their offerings. Ancient peoples also made offerings of grain. Yet, Judaism okays beer, liquor, and grain products.
Wine today is not produced by ancient Romans offering it to their gods.
And extending the ban to any grape product is really ridiculous.
I don't understand the basis for the national kashrut organizations (other than the triangle K) not giving hashgacha on non-glatt meat. Such meat would be considered perfectly acceptable to Ashkenazim, based on the pesak of the Remah. These organizations used to give such hechsherim until the Hassidic use of "glatt" became popular. Why must stringencies replace basic halacha? Besides, that popularity among non-Hssidim was based only on the presumed higher standards of kashrut involved. This, however, is not a great assumption in that a bodek who isn't truly a knowledgeable and GOD-fearing individual can do a superficial job in inspecting lungs for sirchot, or use a very relaxed standard for what constitutes such a blemish. The perception today is that a much greater percentage of slaughtered animals are declared glatt than used to be the case decades ago. In other words, some of what passes for glatt meat would have once been judged just kosher.
I am not in a position to make a judgement call on Hebrew National or Rabbi Ralbag's kashrut supervision. I just wish that other national organizations would start giving certifications to non-glatt meat which would increase the quality, if not reduce the price of such meat.
Y. Aharon
Vosizneias has the BJT article and a litany of comments that follow:
http://www.vosizneias.com/34961/...enough-to-many/
Rabbi Fink,
All I saw in the comments were rabid stories about how "rabbi" ralbag allows lard and other shtus.
Oh, and several thoughtful comments praising him and his son for their brilliance, midos, carefulness, and the fact that now many more Jews can eat kosher.
I wonder which I believed?
The comments were just such a sad commentary on the state of the kashrut industry.
Okay Doc,
You are right. You caught me. Except those two comments were in different contexts.
When I first commented I stated my opinion (mostly biased).
After a little bullying I tempered my comments so that more people would agree that at least there was a slight bias.
Since when is being called for an inaccurate statement considered "bullying?"
To that bias I have provided the obvious glee in their discovery that there are politics in Kashrus (as per my comments above).
"Bias?" I reread the article, and I found neither "bias" not "glee" in the "discovery" that there is politics in kashrut. And you were mighty quick to smear the BJT with an "anti-religious" and "left-wing" label, when you might do some research on the author of the article, Kenneth Lasson. If you check out his anti=PC book, "Trembling in the Ivory Tower," (http://www.bancroftpress.com/press/
KennethLasson_PressRelease.pdf) will see that he's no kneejerk leftist, and if you read this op-ed he wrote:
http://www.jewishtimes.com/index..._shalom_at_jcc/
You can see that his is definitely not anti-religious. In fact, from the article, it seems that he's Orthodox!
He's also defended Jonathon Pollard;
http://
www.jewishworldreview.com...ard.shutup.html
People really need to be more skeptical about the conventional wisdom they hear spouted at Shabbat tables.
Some more information from Rabbi Asher Lopatin about the Hebrew National issue at this link -
http://newsdesk.tjctv.com/2009/0...onal-as-kosher/
Here is an excerpt (the letter) -
Chaveirim,
Before Shabbat I have to ask charata: I mentioned that someone told me that Rabbi Ralbag said not to eat Hebrew National. However, this week I had a long conversation with Rav Aryeh Ralbag, and he told me that you can rely on Hebrew National 100%, that he follows all the p’sakim of the Aruch HaShulchan, the Posek Acharon for Lita, and that he does eat Hebrew National products himself. In his home he buys only ‘glatt’, but he is happy to eat Hebrew National outside his home, and he tells his congregants that they can eat it also.
There is a lot more to discuss, but I was impressed on the phone. Rav Aryeh Ralbag is also the chief rabbi and posek for the Jewish community in Holland. He also assured me that his meat is not shackled and hoisted, but, rather, follows the suggestions of animal expert Temple Grandin – she was praised in the Orthodox Israeli magazine, “Mishpacha” – in shechting in a way that is least painful and traumatic for the animals. He also assured me that all his foreign mashgichim, bodkim and shochtim have R1 visas issued by the govt. He says the shochtim are given regular b’chinos every few months, and that implied to me, that they are well supervised.
I realize that many in the hashgacha world have questions about the Triangle K, but, I wanted to correct and error that I had about Rav Ralbag’s attitude towards his products.
Shabbat shalom,
Asher Lopatin
And here is an excerpt of the article -
Note how even here, the rumor-mill of kosher plays a huge role, with someone falsely informing Lopatin that Ralbag thinks the meat isn’t kosher, and Lopatin initially acting on that. If most people would actually go to the source for real answers, like Lopatin eventually did, there’d be a lot less confusion, distrust and finger-pointing in the world of kosher.
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