Maybe nobody else is fasting?
Mostly because I don't find it so difficult. It's hard for me to attach meaning to this day in particular or any of the other fast days other than Yom Kippur and Tisha B'Av.
You can see in my post below the issues with the date and the other reasons given for the fast in the Mishna.
I get annoyed with people (like my shul's rabbi) who want to force everyone to think and feel the same thing. The rabbi, from the pulpit, basically said if you're not crying you're an insensitive jerk who's lost touch with everything Jewish in you.
It's interesting that Zechariah strongly suggests that when the second temple was built the people completely forgot about all these days which we decided should still be kept.
JS;
It is fascinating but irrelevant.
The Shulchan Aruch says we fast today.
And he adds for good measure that one should "not breach the walls" of this law.
As DB and I discussed on Twitter:
(which if you read this blog is a great place for more side discussions...)
I fast because I have made a blanket decision, based on my upbringing and subsequent research, to adhere, as best as I can, to Halacha.
That is the starting point.
Once I am adhering to halacha (or at least trying) I try to study more about the reason for the halacha, the message and meaning of the law and that only adds to my desire to adhere to the halacha.
Yes, I fast because of the SA. Regardless of whether the dates are wrong or whether it's a first temple date or 2nd temple date or what they did during Zechariah's time, this is what we do now and what we have done for centuries.
Still, the questions are interesting.
Yes, interesting.
(And so is your Rabbi's bleating)
Maybe the SA said "don't breach the walls" because of the confusion with the date?
The rabbi made another cardinal sin in my book. He began by telling a story that he made a point of telling everyone was a true story told to him by the people involved. The story was incredibly dramatic and emotional with some people crying from the story. Then he tells everyone it's not a true story and lambastes them for not crying over the beit hamikdash and being like a character in the story who was an unfeeling jerk.
Fun times.
G-d wills it.
JS:
Wow. I could never / would never be able to pull a stunt like that...
Don't recommend it. This rabbi talks FOREVER and scream a lot. People aren't impressed or happy.
I fast because to be part of the Jewish people is to participate in such things, both happy and sad.
my sons are fasting and for the almost barmitzvah bochur its tough. if he skipped breakfast and lunch by accident i am sure he wouldnt feel as icky as he does now, but my oldest boy says that you have to KNOW why you are fasting in order to get the mitzvah. is this true?
I know why I'm fasting on a superficial level, but I don't really feel the reverberations through history, so to speak.
On fast days I usually just look at all the troubles in the world, especially those that affect the Jews (divisiveness, poverty, political, existential, etc) and think that even if these problems continued it would be more tolerable if we had a beit hamikdash and a more tangible connection to God.
HSM:
Tell the little guy to chill out 
.
There is no "mitzva". It is a halacha and you get the credit regardless of understanding.
There is more growth when we understand and appreciate what we are doing.
Wishing you all an easy and meaningful fast.
I fast because it's part of the system of halacha that I have committed to observe. Generations before me fasted, and some people were moser nefesh to keep halacha. (Yes, I know fasting isn't one of the "big 3" yaharog v'al ya'avor" My point is general.)
Ritual is what makes Judaism meaningful to me, especially since I have issues with the dogma.
However, fear of sinning is not my motivation. If I didn't fast, I don't believe there would be divine retribution.
I fast because I fast, because Jews have always fasted, because I have always fasted, and because my family and my community are fasting.
Really there isn't much more to say on it then that.
wrong
that was for dys but i guess it goes fot DB too
Bray:
G-d wills it.
People who had Emunah in God and developed our religious system to serve God willed it.
That's good enough for me.
so what happens to people that choose not to fast?
Tomorrow I will overeat because I overeat, because Jews have of late overeaten and because I have always overeaten and because my family and my community regularly overeat.
Really there isn't much more to say on it then that
People who had Emunah in God and developed our religious system to serve God willed it.
And G-d willed that we obey the Halakhic rulings of the developed our religious system . As such to fullfill their will is to fulfill His.
Hadassah,
I will let you know.
cross His wiil and retribution comes sooner or later.
Bray,
What if I have a doctor's note?
Hadassah-
The Divine equivalent of "Makas Mardus"="insubordiantion flogging" IIRC. As is the case with transgressing any issur d'Rabonon.
How and when is up to the Divine dispenser of reward and punishment.
of course this excludes anyone eating due to legitimate Halakhic dispensation.
TO,
Don't get overconfident just because the skies are clear and it doesn't look like there's a thunder storm in sight.
Death by lightning strike isover-the-top.
so what happens to people that choose not to fast?
Either nothing or they miss out some something that they might have found meaningful. But it's their choice.
I can't believe no one found my post interesting!
Either nothing or they miss out some something that they might have found meaningful
If you enetertain the possibility of "nothing" then I submit thatit lacks true meaning even to those, like you, who do fast.
Death by lightning strike isover-the-top.
Oh come one! The not fasting is just the tip of the iceberg!
Maybe the punishment is not getting the reward?
(JS, I actually have a doctor's note so either way I am covered)
I found some new meaning in this:
http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=414#comments
>Maybe the punishment is not getting the reward?
IIRC this is how most Rishonim understand the punishment for a sin of omission- a bitul Mitzvas Asay.
This might apply to Yom Kippur which is governed by both a positive and negative commandment
HSM:
In many circles women don't fast at all.
Just pretend your with them...
I think the "punishment" is that you become slightly distanced from the community. Good meeda k'neged meeda, no?
oh please, like it is so hard to fake fasting. . .been there, done that.
I really think 17 Tamuz is a community things, established by Rabbis, with or without Gods blessing, who wanted to drive home a memory and a message.
Fasting is opting in.
Not fasting is opting out.
No punishment, no reward, just what results naturally if anything.
Why have you chosen to play along?
Judaism ought not be a game or performance art.
Letz!
BTW it is a good midah k'neged midah as the Rambam in hilkhos ta'anis IIRC describes a non-faster as a פורש מדרכי צבור ואינו משתתף בצערם
while we talk about fasting, where does this fasting 3 fasts before bar / batmitzvah come from?
>Not fasting is opting out.
What about if you say slikhos, lain va'ykhal and khop a little nibble on the sly where no one sees?
to clarify 5:32-
in addition to the Kah-rais for transgressing the lav.
I really think 17 Tamuz is a community things, established by Rabbis, with or without Gods blessing, who wanted to drive home a memory and a message.
Fasting is opting in.
Not fasting is opting out.
Except in a liberall community where most people DON'T fast and you DO.
Hmmm....
HSM:
I don't think you're gonna find anything regarding the 3 fasts...
What about if you say slikhos, lain va'ykhal and khop a little nibble on the sly where no one sees?
There's the divide. What keeps you keeping halacha. Because God's watching or because you're watching yourself?
EF - why not?
There is no "mitzva". It is a halacha and you get the credit regardless of understanding.
Rabbi Fink,
Why is it not a mitzvah? I always though it was a mitzvah d'rabanan and perhaps even a mitzvah d'oraita through the command to follow the sages.
How do you differentiate mitzvah from halacha?
Except in a liberall community where most people DON'T fast and you DO.
No exception. Because the liberal "community" that you describe is, to a man/woman, a group of schismatics who have willfully sepersted themselves from the ways and mores of the community of Israel.
A Mitzva is one of the 613. Like Shabbos, studying Torah, not murdering etc.
A Halacha is law that governs our life.
Sometimes a mitzva can have thousands of halachos (Shabbos) and sometimes a halacha is not part of a mitzva rather it is part of a Rabbinic obligation (like the 4 minor fasts) which are derived from a verse in Zecharia and Navi teaches us Rabbinic laws. Those Rabbinic obligations have sub-laws, and they are also called halachos.
Technically speaking we are bound to rabbinic obligations from a Torah obligation to listen to the rabbis but we do not call them mitzvos in the same sense as a Torah obligation.
Next thing, Rabbi Fink is going to tell us that "mitzvah notes" are not really for actual mitzvot either! Hehehe. (My favorite story is when a friend's son wanted to get a mitzvah note for wiping himself after "going potty.")
I don't like this "opting in" and "opting out" talk. Personally, I'm not comfortable asking people if they are fasting or not, especially when it comes to minor fasts for which the "doctor's note" would be more prevalent, as a matter of halacha. It's really none of my business if someone else is fasting and, if not, why not. I feel that way about a lot of halachic practice (it's none of my business), but I feel it even more strongly when it comes to health and privacy issues.
Because the liberal "community" that you describe is, to a man/woman, a group of schismatics who have willfully sepersted themselves from the ways and mores of the community of Israel.
Bullshit.
In this kind of community, most of the members were raised in a similar stream of Judaism (some even came over from Reform and now consider themselves "observant" compared to their families). So they have willfully joined (and pay membership dues and contribute tzedakah) to what they see as the community of Yisrael.
I know it may come as a shock, but modern Orthodoxy, let alone RW or Charedi versions of Orthodoxy, aren't even on the radar for most liberal Jews.
Offwinger:
I despise Mitzva Notes. I also despise parents saying to their kids "do a mitzva and get me my slippers". Ugghh.
My 6 yr son got mitzva notes bc everyone else does but we try to actually find a mitzva that he did nicely...
Offwinger:
The halacha is pretty clear. It is a Rabbinic obligation to fast. And it is Assur to be Poretz Geder (breach the walls).
However, there are leniencies that when applicable would render not fasting preferable than fasting. Consult your Rabbi...
And you're right, it's nobody's business. I think DB was asking "those of you who are fasting - why?"
Tzip:
I think Bray means that at some point the liberal Jews who do not adhere to halacha "opted out" of halachic Judaism. It is not a current choice for almost all of them (thus making it a non-choice in the grand scheme of things).
E Fink - My 6 yr son got mitzva notes bc everyone else does but we try to actually find a mitzva that he did nicely...
We also hated the mitzvah notes. Luckily it stops when the kids get older. I hope they stopped the whole thing so we don't have to do it again when the boys start real school. The kids would nag everyday for a mitzvah note - "Rifka ate breakfast nicely", "Moshe put his shoes away after school", what nonsense!!!
Not so fast
בזמן הזה בדורות הללו שאין שמד ולא שלום רצו מתענין, לא רצו אין מתענין... הילכך שלשה צומות מי שאינו רוצה לצום אין בכך כלום ואינו מחויב בהן אבל ט' באב הואיל והוכפל בו [הצרות] חייב לצום ולהתענות בו ולנהוג בו מנהג יום הכפורים שכך חכמי' (פסחים נ"ד ע"ב
אוצר הגאונים לר"ה, התשובות, עמ' 32
In this time in these generations that there is no decimation and no peace, those that want may fast, those that don't want don't fast... therefore three fasts he that doesn't want to fast it is not a problem and he is not obligated, except for tisha b'Av since the disasters are doubled, one must fast and afflict oneself and according to the customs of yom haKippurim for thus our sages said (BT Pesahim 54b) 'Rava taught pregnant women and nursing women afflict themselves on it and finish it like on yom haKippurim and on its twilight it is forbidden
Otzer haGeonim
The geonic custom made the three minor fasts optional.
I usually don't fast because I forget and eat breakfast or am lazy or some combination of those. I also for some reason find fasting harder these days that I used to. I was a good faster when I was younger.
"Because the liberal "community" that you describe is, to a man/woman, a group of schismatics who have willfully sepersted themselves from the ways and mores of the community of Israel."
Really? Sounds like the Briskers. Rumor is Fundie, they didn't fast these fast either.
Another option on fast days is to consume only 'fast foods'.
R. Fink - Trying to find a mitzvah your son did nicely is a good response.
Another pet peeve of mine along the same lines as mitzvah notes is when people call everything "muktzeh" rather than distinguishing between melacha and muktzeh.
Oooh! oooh! Maybe you could give your son a mitzvah note when he refrains from doing melacha on Shabbat even though it's something he really wants to do!
Bringing Daddy his slippers is a mitzvah, though.
I don't like mitzvah notes, but then I don't like the idea of mitzvot as points on some cosmic scorecard.
DB:
Bringing Daddy his slippers is a mitzvah, though.
The point was, using the mitzva as bait to get what you want. That is gross to me...
Its chinuch!
OJ:
That is quite a find!
Although, being a Shulchan Aruch observant Jew, I remain bound by its psak.
Sorry excuse for chinuch.
Sounds to me like you're too lazy to get your own slippers and the kid who you can manipulate with mitzva points will do as you say.
If you want chinuch, show them how YOU arr mechabed YOUR parents...
OJ what do the geonim say about women fo specious hasidic background opting out of the minor fasts on the grounds that "hasidic women don't fast?"
Offwinger:
Could not agree more about muktza.
Since DovBear brought up chinuch and you brought up muktza I have a great story that has both!
R' Elya Lopian (my namesake and great great grandfather) was walking with one of his grandsons on Shabbos and his 5 year old great grandson in Shabbos. The grandson sees his little boy playing with some rocks and tells his son "Boychik, the rocks are muktza, we don't play with muktza on Shabbos".
Reb Elya interjected: "He is not old enough to understand muktza, you are not teaching him about muktza, but you are teaching him to disobey his father as he is certainly going to play with rocks on Shabbos again. When he is ready, teach him about muktza".
(DB, you have too many comments; if I were you, I'd choose to keep the first 10 (random), and arbitrarily delete the next 59.)
I fast because I fast, because Jews have always fasted, because I have always fasted, and because my family and my community are fasting.
Really there isn't much more to say on it then that.
DB: כל הכבוד, זה לענין! We fast because we are in a community which fasts; this halacha d'Rabbanan is too much already: we are already fasting on Tisha b'Av, remembering the destruction of the Bet HaMikdash. So we also have to fast at the beginning of the siege? And then for 3 solid weeks in the freakin' summer we must refrain from doing certain activities?
Enough already!
We Jews do get cheated out of the summer months. From April till October its one holiday or fast day or mourning period after another. Can't we move some of this to February?
http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2005...ersion-1-
2.html
OJ what do the geonim say about women fo specious hasidic background opting out of the minor fasts on the grounds that "hasidic women don't fast?"
Don't hasidim already not say tahanun because every day is the jahrzeit of a rebbe? Perhaps they apply that to minor fasts. I think it was in Likutei BS
Although, being a Shulchan Aruch observant Jew, I remain bound by its psak.
E. Fink, I'm not sure if anyone is still reading this thread, but anyhow, I never understood what made the shulchan arukh more binding than codes that preceded or succeeded it? And in particular, that you don't really learn the shulchan arukh without learning the other guys on the page. So, even when you say that, you're not really following Karo, you're following Karo/Isserles/etc.
Though it's nice that R' Karo and R' Isserles wanted to standardize Jewish practice after the expulsion, how necessary is it that we all worship the same way and lose local customs? And why focus on the 16th century?
For example, here people in different communities have opposing practices.
פסחים ד,א מקום שנהגו לעשות מלאכה בערבי פסחים עד חצות, עושין; מקום שנהגו שלא לעשות, אינן עושין. ההולך ממקום שעושין למקום שאינן עושין, או ממקום שאינן עושין למקום שעושין--נותנין עליו חומרי מקום שיצא משם, וחומרי מקום שהלך לשם; ואל ישנה אדם, מפני המחלוקת.
In a place where they were accustomed to do melakha on erev pesah until noon, they may do so. In a place where there were accustomed not to do, they may not do so. If he goes from a place where they do [melakha] to a place where they do not do [melakha], or from a place where they do not do [melakha] to a place where they do [melakha]-- we apply the more severe restrictions of both the place where he comes from and the place he is going to. However, a person should not act differently [from others] because of arguments.
On the other hand, what gave the alter rebbe the right to author the "shulkhan arukh of the rav" or R' Ganzfried to write the "Kitzur Shulchan Arukh" or R' Epstein to write the "Arukh haShulchan" if the SA is the final word?
We don't fast because of events that happened in the distant past. We fast because of our present predicament. These fasts are not meant to be memorial services such as Pearl Harbor Day or the annual 9/11 memorials. These fasts are meant for introspection and realization that we are still in golus and that the destruction of the Temples resonate as much today as when they actually occurred. The proof is that when the Mashiach comes, these fast days will no longer be days of mourning but days of joy and festivity. May that day come soon, amen.
OJ:
All really good points.
My understanding of issue number 1 is that we follow the Rama / Mechaber and their commentaries simply because they became the accepted authorities. Their contemporaries instructed their communities to observe those rules. 16th century is when we finally had access to mass printing so that's when it was actually possible to distribute an agreed upon text.
As far as number 2, those books generally agree with Rama, sometimes they may disagree but they must follow a contemporary of the Rama as a support. So really, they are saying "don't follow the Rama here, follow his contemporary" but not "follow me".
Further, books like Kitzur SHA were written to give folks a bare bones minimum without going into too much detail, so he felt it was sometimes better to be machmir (I dont think he was ever meikel).
Definitely room for more discussion on these questions...
Shalom--
the halacha does not start and end with the Shulchan Aruch (or the Mishnah Berurah), as many people are wont to believe.
(Interestingly, I just read Rav Kook who said that when galut Judaism has fundamentally run it's course, the galut intensifies tremendously... clearly he was talking about a galut as far as the consciousness of Torah in all its aspects is concerned.)
At any rate, there are (at least) two basic interpretations about what the Gemara says: when there exists "shalom", we don't need to fast, and when there isn't, we do, and in an intermediate state, it's voluntary (rishonim also disagree as to what this means). Rashi says shalom means yad yisrael takifa-- basically, that there's Jewish sovereignty. The Ramban says it means that there's a bet hamikdash.
In my opinion Rashi here is the more reasonable opinion, since the gemara didn't mention anything about the bet haMikdash, it just said shalom; if the hachamim would have made the Bet HaMikdash the determining factor they most likely would have said so. So, it seems that Rashi sticks to the basic peshat much more closely.
The point is, I'm not sure one can say that there's a mitzvah derabanan in force today to fast. Of course, that doesn't mean one shouldn't fast. I did. Why? Because, overall, one way or another it does build consiousness of the Bet HaMikdash and the other elements that are missing today in Judaism/the world.
Micha-
Jews fasted on Tisha beAv during the second temple period.
Good question. I have made it a practice not to fast on any day other that Yom Kippur, a fast day from the Torah, and Tisha B'Av as a protest against the Rabbis' refusal to proclaim a fast day for the Shoah, the most destructive event in Jewish history (yes, including churban bais rishon).
The rationale expressed by my Rabbi for the absence of a Shoah fast day is that all Jewish tragedies are subsumed into Tisha B'Av. If that is the case, then we should be consistent. There is no point in fasting on the minor fast days when it appears that Tisha B'Av is all encompassing.
I fast because I took it on a few years ago without too much thought, and I don't believe in abandoning any halacha I've taken on- just think of it as the Brtshnev Doctrine of halacha!
It's interesting that Zechariah strongly suggests that when the second temple was built the people completely forgot about all these days which we decided should still be kept.
which, given general sociology, the conditions of the times, etc., is not remotely suprising.
compare it to the fact that almost all jews have completely forgoten that prior to the haskala, and even for most of the time since, boys and girls meeting and marrying was completely acceptable, likewise they have completely forgotten that wedding were generaly made with mixed crowds.
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