Allow me to "fix" your last paragraph
Venishmartem meod lenafshoteichem (Devarim 4.15)– “you should carefully guard your soul”. Smoking is the total opposite to this mitzvah. You can be as learned and as “frum” as you like, but in my book, if you smoke OR DRINK WHISKEY OR RIDE A MOTORBIKE OR EAT KUGEL OR OTHER FATTY FOODS OR SKIP REGULAR PHYSICALS OR SIT IN THE SUN OR EAT RED MEAT OR ANY NUMBER OF THINGS THAT HARM YOUR HEALTH you may as well go out and eat treife. You have no respect for you body that was created b’tzelem elokim – would you blow smoke in G-d’s face?
In short, stop being such a scold. We know smoking is bad, but it is so, so, so nice. Our bodies, our choice, our risk.
smoking is different.
and lung, lip and throat cancer are different
unless cigs contain meat-milk or kilaei Hakerem combos they shouldn't need a hashgakha.
Have another slice of ham, grilled in lard, with a side of bacon. I won't tell you its suicide, so let me enjoy my Marbolo Reds.
Ah... smoking one now. Sweet.
In my community there are a small number of Orthodox women who smoke.
All my girl friends smoke (and are smokin' besides.)
"unless cigs contain meat-milk or kilaei Hakerem combos they shouldn't need a hashgakha."
iirc, there was a gadol story (rav yosef chaim sonnenfeld?) in which the gadol was addicted to cigarettes, but then he was informed that there was a concern with stam yeinam with them, and so he quit cold turkey...
kt,
josh
bad foods are the overextension and corruption of a ntural tayveh.
Smoking is an unnatural tayvah from the get go.
I think another smoking problem is that the smoking teens and their enablers are breaking the law by having adults buy (or give) them cigs.
That's not okay.
Pedant:
Your first comment on this thread has a lot of truth to it.
(Unfortunately, it is hard for anyone to take you seriously after you trashed on an innocent commenter in the other thread.)
Bray, there are no unantural desires. They are all natural.
E_Fink I can see how Pedant might have been provked. Yoni was shooting from the hip.
bad foods are the overextension and corruption of a ntural tayveh.
Smoking is an unnatural tayvah from the get go.
The Bray of Fundie | Homepage | 07.08.09 - 2:26 pm | #
even if this is true, what difference does that make? Seems like an meaningless distinction. Obesity and heart disease are the biggest health problems we face. Not to mention childhood obesity. People always manage to find a way to rationalize their own vices while demonizing those of others.
I think this is fantastic point. You would never imagine any torah true person condoning self injurious behavior such as cutting oneself to relieve stress or bulimia to stay thin (well actually, considering the shidduch criteria these days, could be wrong about that) - but smoking death sticks, no problem. And the rabbaim are perfectly fine with it and will do it right in front of the kids as though it is something they are perfectly fine with role modeling.
Eating unhealthy food is different in that it is easy to get addicted to food as we need to eat in general to survive and once you start eating for some it is hard to stop. If the yeshivot would come out strongly against smoking most kids would never have the desire to smoke.
I live in a chareidi town in metro New York and none of the Rabbonim or Mechanchim smoke in 2009.
Immature yeshiva bochrim might try to smoke, but I never see adults here smoking.
Also, all of the other things (possibly with the exception of the motor bike) done in moderation or with the appropriate protections are not deadly while smoking a few cigarettes a day or even a week could kill you.
E-fink makes a great point tho - forget about the smoking for just a sec, what about the older kids who purchase the ciggies for others? thats totally against the law.
and btw I will not even address Pedant - i find him rude and obnoxious. everyone else here is being civilzed - even Bray!! - if you have a point, make it in a respectful manner if you want to be taken seriously.
(and if that makes me a scold then so be it)
these boys look to the rebbeim and the older bochrim as mentors. these older men and boys have a responsibilty to model good behaviour. the mouth is used for davenning to Hashem and learning his Torah. they dont pollute their mouths with cursing, why is cigarette smoke ok?
Here's a link to some pics of what happens to your lungs when you smoke,
http://www.smokerslungs.com/
Just don't look right after eating, you might upchuck your meal. But Pendant be my guest and look while your smoking, hope you don't swallow your cig.
Why is greasy, heart clogging food ok?
CBY - thanks for that. unfortunatley far too many smokers are past the point where such a picture will make an impact on them
Eating unhealthy food is different in that it is easy to get addicted to food as we need to eat in general to survive and once you start eating for some it is hard to stop.
Rob | 07.08.09 - 3:15 pm | #
This sounds more like an excuse than a distinction. At the end of the day, both are super unhealthy, and both should be treated the same If the final goal is their health. If, on the other hand, the goal of this is to simply judge and condemn certain behaviors then carry on.
DB,
i learned in a realy yeshivish yeshiva (you would call rw chareidi), and smoking was discouraged. in high school if someone got cought he was suspended. in bais medrash, they didn't suspend, but they would kick you out of the dormatory (and would have to commute) if you smoked - even if you didn't smoke in the building.
Smoking is clearly Assur. Many (most?) MO folks follow the Vaad Halacha of the RCA (which include the Poskim Rav Schachter, Rav Willig, and others) which has recently (2006) made it completely clear -
www.rabbis.org/pdfs/Prohibition_Smoking.pdf
"הכלהל םוכיס
Accordingly, this analysis must lead to the unambiguous conclusion that smoking is clearly and unquestionably forbidden by הכלה and that this should be made known to all who care about the הרות and their health." [Hebrew is backwards for some reason, see the original for better readability]
Our bodies, our choice, our risk
Wow. To read that in a blog in which most of the participants are purportedly religious Jews. Even our kefiradik Conservative rabbi expresses the view that your body is on loan to you from God, and you have an obligation to take care of it. I though that was normative Jewish thought, though I'm not sure I believe it 100%.
As far as tobacco products go, using them is a little different than, say, cutting yourself to relieve stress, because there isn't a 100% chance that you're going to get sick or die form smoking. Yes, statistically you are a risk, but the actual risk to you depends on your genetic makup (and this resistance to the diseases), the amount you smoke, the kind of tobacco products you use, etec. etc. My grandmother smoked, and she died at age 96 and not from lung cancer.
It's not the nicotine that makes you sick, it's the cr*p in the smoke that you pull into your lungs. The nicotine's role is to be so addictive that you're willing to shove crap down your lungs just to get your daily dose. Better to get the patch or chew the gum.
If you must smoke, why not try a good quality cigar or a pipe? At least then you're not inhaling, at least not deliberately. And the smoke smells better, too.
I think greasy, fatty, calorie-laden foods are also a huge problem (kiddush, cholent chaburas, etc). As is the lack of exercise in our communities (My wife and I try to go on long walks every Shabbos and never see men out walking). This is a huge problem that also needs to be addressed and is carefully protected by those who argue the food is tradition and that exercise is bitul zman.
However, smoking is a level above this. As a piece of kishka and fried chicken every once in a while isn't terribly dangerous, but smoking every once in a while most likely is. I won't go into other things that make smoking more dangerous as others have done it above.
However, one needs to look at the social aspects of both problems. If someone sponsored a kiddush, even if it was very expensive, but only had healthy foods people would be really pissed. But, the guy offers a heart attack on a plate and he's a hero.
Someone should also address why sitting and learning all day is so darn stressful. And if it really is, someone should come up with some other methods of stress relief - exercise, listening to music, reading something other than a gemara, etc.
I'd love to hear someone expand on the "yeshiva is very stressful motif," as I am laughing hysterically right now.
Oh yes, learning is so darn stressful. It's a wonder that anyone at all stays in kollel. My guess is that this is code for: "being a severely sexually repressed teenager is stressful."
the actual risk to you depends on your genetic makup (and this resistance to the diseases), the amount you smoke, the kind of tobacco products you use, etec. etc. My grandmother smoked, and she died at age 96 and not from lung cancer.
There's a lot of truth in this. Scientists are starting to discover genetic factors that lead to long life and lead some to live tremendously long while suffering no ill effects from fatty foods, cigarettes, etc. However, we don't yet understand the mechanism and therefore smoking or not exercising is just gambling with your health.
Also, in terms of cigars, you do inhale it, just not so deeply. I actually used to smoke cigars every once in a while. You still have an elevated chance of various mouth and throat cancers.
However, smoking is a level above this. As a piece of kishka and fried chicken every once in a while isn't terribly dangerous, but smoking every once in a while most likely is.
That wasn't what I heard from my doctor when, in my mid 30's, a chest -ray found a little lesion in my lungs. I had been on off-and on pipe smoker, so at first I was freaked out, but the doc said I was being ridiculous, that (1) I was too young to have developed lung cancer, and (2) my amount of smoking wasn't enough to make such a dire thing likely. Subsequent investigation revealed that the lesion was benign and not related to smoking in any way.
Not that I recommend smoking. I pretty much quit after that little episode, except for the occasional cigar when I'm out of town.
CA-
I can't believe I actually agree with your Rabbi about something.
I actually have a theory on why there is so much more obesity in the frum community compared to non-jews with similar socioeconomic status. It has to do with frum jews generally getting married at younger ages and as adults never being “forced” (in the social pressure sense) to stay thin and healthy.
Its often the experience working-out and staying healthy in young adulthood which trains people to remain healthy for the remainder of their lives. This sort of experience is mostly absent from the frum world.
I can't believe I actually agree with your Rabbi about something.
That just shows your ignorance of Conservative Judaism. Their rabbis actually espouse fairly traditional Jewish values over a range of subjects, even if they apply those values in a more humanistic way to come up with different halachic conclusions.
I went to a Charedi high school and I think that many here are missing a major point. The average high school yeshiva student has to restrain himself from many very normal urges. The single "kosher" form of rebellion against the straight and narrow yeshiva system, which allows a teenager to feel that their "non-conforming", while at the same time he's still in the yeshiva system.
I agree there needs to be more healthy ways of relaxing and releasing stress (though honestly, I don't think learning all day is that stressful, especially how many people do it). Nonetheless, I think in some places calling smoking "non-conforming" is a joke. In some places it's the opposite, not smoking means you're not conforming. To echo the post, the area in front of the kollel near me is littered with cigarette butts and it's not unusual to see 7-8 guys at any given time of day outside smoking.
DH-
fascinating theory. I like it
DH,
Agree and disagree. In MO circles, there's gym classes throughout school (k-12). Also, most boys and girls participate in sports leagues at least till 8th grade. Summer camps are also activity and sports heavy. Even as adults, most MO shuls have softball or football on Sunday after minyan or basketball after minyan at least once a week. It's also much more accepted for MO people to go to a gym.
I can't speak about chareidi schools or camps. My impression from talking to people is that many (most?) do not have gym and that even in camp as you get older it's more learning than playing sports. If I'm wrong, please correct me. As people who are more RW grow up, exercising or playing sports is seen as bitul zman. Even if you work, the expectation is that you come home and go to minyan and a shiur, not that you exercise or play a sport.
I'm not saying MO people are healthier (I have no idea what the statistics are), but they have more socially acceptable opportunities.
Another factor is that in the shidduch scene it's the women who are expected to be super skinny and fit. The guys get a pass on this issue. Similarly, no one blinks if a guy needs new pants or a suit because he's bursting out of the old one, whereas if a woman goes up a dress size everyone comments. In any shul, it's the men who are fat slobs while the women are thin and fashionable (in general). For some reason, across the spectrum, the men get a pass.
Charedi/MO types (you know: Florida, TV, hats, segulot, and daf yomi) go to the gym.
). For some reason, across the spectrum, the men get a pass.
The reason is women don't mind fat men, as much as men dislike fat women.
I agree with those who have pointed out that sitting and pretending to learn all day isn' so stressful.
DB,
I made the point above, but I'll say it again. I work full-time in a fairly stressful job and then go to law school at night. My typical day from when I leave the house to when I get home is about 13-14 hours. My Sundays are spent studying. My wife works about 13-16 hour days in a stressful job and often has to work on weekends. All this on top of everyday activities such as cooking, cleaning, paying bills, planning for the future, etc.
I'm not tooting my own horn and I don't want a pity party - we like our lives and we chose it. My point is only this, these guys sitting in kollel don't understand the meaning of the word stress.
“In MO circles, there's gym classes throughout school (k-12). Also, most boys and girls participate in sports leagues at least till 8th grade. Summer camps are also activity and sports heavy.”
I agree with this, but I specifically made the distinction between children and adults because it is much easier for a child to be fit without trying than for an adult. Once you start clearing your low 20s, your metabolism starts slowing and most people have to work at staying in shape. It is specifically the high level of working out in the mid/high twenties that trains people to remain healthy in later years. And this is what is lacking in the frum community. Playing softball in 10th grades doesn’t teach the motivation and discipline required for healthy living as an adult.
DH,
I think the obesity has more to do with the fact of the extremely time-constrained lifestyle of your average Orthodox Jew in contemporary times. So 0people go for the prepared foods and have little time to exercise.
CA - That just shows your ignorance of Conservative Judaism. Their rabbis actually espouse fairly traditional Jewish values over a range of subjects, even if they apply those values in a more humanistic way to come up with different halachic conclusions.
Most Conservative Rabbis are fine. The problem is with the people, they ignore their Rabbis much more than Orthodox folks ignore their Rabbis.
DH,
I think the obesity has more to do with the fact of the extremely time-constrained lifestyle of your average Orthodox Jew in contemporary times. So 0people go for the prepared foods and have little time to exercise.
dys | Homepage | 07.08.09 - 5:22 pm | #
What do you mean by constrained lives? In general, those with higher paying more demanding jobs have much lower rates of obesity. Look at investment bankers. They work 100 hour weeks (at least they used to) yet most are in pretty good shape and go to the gym on a regular basis.
>Why is smoking acceptable in most yeshivot?
Because every other conceivable outlet for teenage boys, including masturbation, isn't.
id love to have the "stress" of learning in yeshiva all day. if thats stressful, if these boys or men would have to go on life -support after having heart-attacks if they had a job even 1/20th as stressful as my job. anyway, try sports if you want to relieve stress. that would do the trick much better than a cancer stick.
everyone who smokes does not get cancer and everyone who has the breast cancer gene does not get breast cancer. SO WHAT . i still dont think that smoking is such a good idea. it can cause cancer and if nothing else smokers have the most repulsive breath .
listen to the news if you want to rebel, join a gym if you want to rebel. listen to lipa if you want to rebel. if you want to kill yourself and the others around you from your second hand smoke, well then go right ahead.
The frum husbands that I know are only allowed to smoke outside the house. Sort of like the generation that kept kosher at home but ate shrimp out.
Excellent post. Chamira Sakanta M'issura is one of the basic principles of halacha. She makes a lot of valid points.
People get more stressed when they are not busy than when they are busy. If they were truly learning all day and engrossed in their studies, they would be less stressed out. The problem is that most of them have time on their hands and spend that time chatting on their cellphones while smoking cigarettes. You can drive past any kollel in the US and this is the typical scene outside.
On pesach they even certify as kosher for Passover products that don’t go near the mouth – toilet paper, cleaning products etc. Yet these odious pieces of death are inhaled and ingested and need no certification?
Here is the difference: Chometz is a) ossur b’hanoa b) assur b’mashehu, while non-kosher cigarette ingredients are a) inedible b) botel.
However, I totally agree with the gist of this post.
At the chassidish yeshiva in Jerusalem where I attended 9 years ago, smoking was the unofficial policy. All members of faculty and most students were tobacco addicts. The study hall was always shrouded in a thick cloud of white smoke, and on Friday afternoons a full bucket of trodden butts was swept out. It was so natural for a ra”m to ask for a light or a schnor a cigarette from a student during lecture. One ra”m was notorious for letting Tosfos get in the way of his light. He used to blow three matches because the other two extinguished before he had a chance to realize he scratched them off.
But even in yeshiva ketane back in NY where smoking was an offense punishable by suspension or expulsion, some rabbis there failed to set a good example. Instead of acting as role model, they excused their habit on addiction.
Here is the difference: Chometz is a) ossur b’hanoa b) assur b’mashehu, while non-kosher cigarette ingredients are a) inedible b) botel.
If Chametz is assur bhana'ah and assur bemashehu, then do smokers get cigarettes that are kasher lepesach to ensure that there is no chametz in them?
Or do they stop smoking for 7 days?
The OU on the permissibility of cigarettes on Pesach and throughout the year:
http://oukosher.org/index.php/co...dia_cigarettes/
If Chametz is assur bhana'ah and assur bemashehu, then do smokers get cigarettes that are kasher lepesach to ensure that there is no chametz in them?
Or do they stop smoking for 7 days?
3rd possibility: They're inhaling chometz. Shocking, I know.
I was once actively encouraged to smoke in Yeshiva by some older bochurim when I mentioned that I was struggling with lewd thoughts and lust. Smoking is supposed to diminish your sexual drive.
I don't know about israel (as a student 20+ years ago there was much more smoking in israel than in america) however, the poster is misrepresenting the facts. In most american yeshivos smoking is NOT acceptable, anyone of legal age who smokes is looked down upon, the hanahalos of MOST yeshivos are not permitted to smoke in front of bachurim. The poster is painting a picture which did, at one, time exist, and may still exist in israel, but no longer does in america. I can only think of one or two prominent r"y who smoke, and they picked it up at a time when smoking was more acceptable.
Yosef,
I assume for the younger bochurim, you're likely correct. They are way over-sexed and have no other outlets (sports, TV, etc). I think for the older bochurim they're already addicted and/or it's the only socially acceptable reason to walk away from your learning.
The "stress" argument is nonsense.
The poster is painting a picture which did, at one, time exist, and may still exist in israel, but no longer does in america.
Tell that to the kollel guys near me. Any time of the day I pass by you can find a whole bunch of them puffing away. Young and old.
IC:
I agree with the above comment. This post is informed by fear, not facts. The fact is that smoking is prohibited and/or discouraged in American Yeshivos. The Yeshivos were behind the curve as of 10-15 years ago (as the Yeshiva world tends to be), but they have caught up.
I tend to side with IC and Noochim (at least a little).
There is some over the top Charedi / Kollel / Yeshiva bashing that is unwarranted here.
Of the (frum) people I know who smoke the overwhelming majority are Chabad (like you can't be lubavitch if you don't smoke levels, - even the women!). Some are Yeshivish and some are MO.
When I was in yeshiva I had one friend who smoked (I only knew him after 18 so I don't know if he started earlier, but he probably did).
There are plenty of delinquents who smoke (cigs and weed) but that is not the point here.
And as far as proportionately, in Law School about 20% of my section of 90 smoke and nowhere near 20% of bochurim / yungerleit smoke, so I think we ahead of the curve...
Smoking is bad. The problem is not so prevalent in anglo yeshivas.
(in Isreali yeshivas its a different story, I bet more isrealis, like euros, smoke than americans)
There is some over the top Charedi / Kollel / Yeshiva bashing that is unwarranted here.
Are you referring to comments that learning all day is not really stressful? Or at least not stressful compared to working?
The whole post and thread are over the top:
That there is a "smoking problem" in Yeshivas.
Like your assertion that Any time of the day I pass by you can find a whole bunch of them puffing away. Young and old.
Plus, the whole "I can learn too, it is so easy, life is a breeze studying all day" is disingenuous.
Do we make the same accusations towards Secular Academics living off grant money?
Anyone who is interested in stopping to smoke should try oil-pulling. Check out www.earthclinic.com and other websites re:oil pulling.
Smoking is very addictive and nearly impossible to stop.
I have a very good friend of mine that was smoking 2 packs a day for over 25 years. He was always coughing and getting sick. About a year ago, i spoke to him about oil pulling and directed him to the Earthclinic site.
He has not smoked one cigarette since he started o.p. And he is now extremely healthy with none of his previous symptoms.
Plus, the whole "I can learn too, it is so easy, life is a breeze studying all day" is disingenuous.
Do we make the same accusations towards Secular Academics living off grant money?
It depends. Do they encourage almost all of their graduates to live off of grant money for 5 years after graduating?
Mark:
It depends. Do they encourage almost all of their graduates to live off of grant money for 5 years after graduating?
Not true and irrelevant.
This has nothing to do with using our financial resources on post graduate study. It has to do with the easy dismissal of any of their accomplishments and how "easy" their lives are. No one ever thinks or questions how "easy" the academic's life is.
Besides, it is not easy for most of them. Believe it or not they don't all get their in-laws check books. Many survive by saving every penny and working odd jobs to make ends meet.
That is why it is disingenuous.
Do we make the same accusations towards Secular Academics living off grant money?
E. Fink | Homepage | 07.09.09 - 10:58 am | #
I don’t even understand the comparison. Secular academics need to continuously produce publishable research. Becoming a tenured professor is a herculean task. Learners in kollel need to produce…well…nothing…ever. What exactly is so stressful about that?
DH:
There are hundreds of yearly / monthly publications full of their novel ideas and exegeses.
And the mechayev of the secular academics is strong but so is the mechayev of the "learner", at least in his mind he is "holding up the world", that is a pretty strong mechayev.
I am not saying they are exactly the same.
I am saying the criticism can get over the top, is disingenuous and is often misinformed.
“Besides, it is not easy for most of them. Believe it or not they don't all get their in-laws check books. Many survive by saving every penny and working odd jobs to make ends meet.”
No one was claiming their overall lives were easy, only that their jobs were not at all stressful. The stress is simply the result of being poor. It would be like saying working at the gas station is a stressful job because I don’t make much money.
Mark - "It depends. Do they encourage almost all of their graduates to live off of grant money for 5 years after graduating?"
R' E Fink - Not true and irrelevant.
It is entirely relevant. I'll explain why. Let's just say that in any population, some percentage are "cut out" to be academics. Let's further say that 10% fit that category, and let's even further say that among Jews, due to cultural history, 20% fit that category.
So, if a given Jewish community directs 80% of their graduates into "academia" (just to be clear I am defining kollel to be academia here and specifically referring to it), and only 20% of them (yes, yes, a quarter of the ones in this academia) can succeed in such an environment, some percentage of effort of the remaining 60% (3/4 in this case) that were directed to academia will be wasting some/much/all of their time. This has nothing to do with Jews, nothing to do with Torah learning, it is just a fact of human nature and mathematics. Furthermore, of the large group that academia is not appropriate, some will eventually find it overwhelming, and will "give up" and simply coast for the remainder of their time. For those, life is easy (and extremely dangerous, because once contracted, the disease of "laziness" is not easily cured).
R' E Fink - This has nothing to do with using our financial resources on post graduate study. It has to do with the easy dismissal of any of their accomplishments and how "easy" their lives are. No one ever thinks or questions how "easy" the academic's life is.
And since you bring up the fact of limited resources, what I describe is also wrong on another level.
Besides, it is not easy for most of them. Believe it or not they don't all get their in-laws check books. Many survive by saving every penny and working odd jobs to make ends meet.
Even if it is not easy for most of them, what they are doing is wrong (obviously in my opinion).
I'll repeat my kollel model that would result in the best production of gedolim for those that haven't heard it yet. Yeshiva Ketanah through age 18 for everyone. The top 30% continue for a year or two. After that, the top 5% continue for 5 years. After that, the top 5% continue forever. This ensures that the best of the best get more attention, and the best of the best of the best get specific and complete support to learn the most and the best they can for a lifetime. The result of this will be the best possible minds learning to the best of their ability with minimal distractions, resulting in a new crop of the greatest gedolim. Otherwise known as "competition" (which almost always results in the best "product").
Rabbi Fink,
I can't speak to the broader yeshiva world. I can only speak to the kollel near me and I assure you there is a lot of smoking going on there. The area in front of the building is littered with cigarette butts and there is a steady stream of kollelniks outside smoking throughout the day. Maybe this is atypical, I don't know.
In terms of a comparison between secular academics and kollel/yeshiva boys, I don't think it's apt. There is no "up or out" pressure on kollel boys, no pressure to publish, no peer reviewed journals, no need to discover or research something new, no need to make a "real contribution." I have several friends in secular academia and they are under real pressures to try to get professorships or post-doc work - a "wrong move" can mean being permanently shut out of this career.
I also don't think it's apt to compare it to those who work and have the stress of satisfying bosses and clients, dealing with office politics, worrying about getting fired, commuting, rising gas and commuter costs, worrying about raises and bonuses and promotions, deadlines, etc.
Learning in kollel is most akin to being a graduate student taking all pass/fail "independent study" classes. Sure there's a lot of material to cover, but you're not being graded, you don't have any deadlines and you can pace yourself.
I'm not trying to bash kollel or learning, but it bothers me when people treat it like the most difficult thing a human being could possibly do or treat it like it belongs in it's own sphere because how dare anyone compare divrei chol to divrei kodesh.
DH:
“There are hundreds of yearly / monthly publications full of their novel ideas and exegeses.”
So? there are hundreds of thousands of academics submitting entrees into these journals. Continuously producing and getting published original research is very very difficult, and something that a very tiny portion of people who try are able to achieve.
Please explain how learning all day is a stressful job. I explained how academics can be stressful, but I haven’t seen any real explanation from you why learning is stressful? Can you fail out if you do poorly on a test? Can you get fired for not being able to make a sale? Where does the stress come from? All you have to do is not openly and totally disregard all learning.
Mark,
The problem with your approach is that those learning all day don't think the goal is to produce gedolim or use communal resources most effectively or efficiently. The goal is simple: Torah learning. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are as long as you are learning. It also doesn't matter if you ever "give back" to the community by becoming a poseik or a communal rav or sit and learn with others or give a shiur or anything. As long as you are learning Torah you are making the world a better place - period.
The stress is simply the result of being poor. It would be like saying working at the gas station is a stressful job because I don’t make much money.
But pumping gas may, indeed be a less stressful job than being a scholar, assuming that the gas station isn't too busy, the boss is an agreeable sort, and the low pay is, nevertheless, enough to live on. Scholarship is a highly competitive field, and your part of the quality control involves having your colleagues tear down your work. Pumping gas is a lot less demanding than that.
We have been indoctrinated to believe that manual work is a horrible experience. But there are many people whose talents lie in that end, and might refer to do that sort of work, except that there's less and less of it available. And many people with intellectually demanding jobs often relax by doing hard work. Winston Churchill did masonry as a hobby, I like to dig in the garden. So maybe Torah scholars should take some time to keep vegetable gardens to relieve stress, get some exercise, and put some food on the table.
JS - The problem with your approach is that those learning all day don't think the goal is to produce gedolim or use communal resources most effectively or efficiently. The goal is simple: Torah learning. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are as long as you are learning. It also doesn't matter if you ever "give back" to the community by becoming a poseik or a communal rav or sit and learn with others or give a shiur or anything. As long as you are learning Torah you are making the world a better place - period.
Yes, this might be the ideal. But it only applies in the days when Hashem provided us with man[na]. And it will apply again in Olam Habah. It does *NOT* apply in the world that Hashem has given us today.
Personally, I think whoever wants to learn in kollel full-time should go and do such as long as they're willing to commit themselves and their families to a potential life of poverty. If their parents/in-laws want to support them, also fine. If people think this is a worthy endeavor and want to support it with their tzedaka money, also fine.
However, I don't think many of those learning are truly committed to Torah study at the cost of poverty. This is where the problems start as those without demand the same things as those with: good food, nice furniture, nice apartments or houses, camps, vacations, cars, etc. You can't have it both ways. If you don't have the family support and there isn't enough tzedaka support then you must be truly committed and risk poverty for you and your family or get out and work like everyone else.
As long as you are learning Torah you are making the world a better place - period.
truer words have seldom been spoken/blogged
Winston Churchill did masonry as a hobby,
I didn't know that!
I knew that he did Masonry (was a Freemason), but I didn't know that he did masonry, as in actual stone/bricklaying.
Here's a picture of him laying bricks at Chartwell:
http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/
archive...PH_1A_F2_29.php
Where does the stress come from?
From existential angst. Torah is life. Every drop of Torah is increased life. Every concept misunderstood or unclarified is life denied.
Think of a guy in a burning house about to drop and crawl to the window and the fire departments waiting ladder. The moments of the crawl are the scariest, saddest, most anxious moments imaginable. The moments on the ladder are the happiest and most exultant imaginable.
ונשמח בדברי תלמוד תורתיך...כי הם חי-ינו= "And may we rejoice in the matters of Your Torah study for they are our lives".
Ever see anyone rejoicing merely because they were alive? I submit to you that no corpse has ever ingested prozac or zoloft and that every despairing depressive suicide was alive moments before they did themselves in.
The nusakh HaTefilah teaches us the proper, nay the ONLY, way to study Torah...like your ongoing life depends on it. Hence the incredible stress and anxiety of ignorance and the exultant joy of knowledge.
(not my original thoughts. I am protecting the authors name so that I absorb whatever slings and arrows the comment evokes...not he)
Bray hit the nail on the head.
True Torah study is the pursuit of clarity and truth in the sugya.
The learners are not sitting around "reading" (like when you put your feet up and browse the Times).
They are compulsively analyzing obscure text to find the kernels of truth that attaches their study to the "truth" that is Torah.
Their mistakes are subject to eternal, spiritual ramifications. That is stressful.
You can disagree with this philosophy, but this is how they approach their lives.
No matter what, or how stressed they are it does not give them license to smoke or engage in other destructive habits.
This part of the thread is not to excuse smokers, rather it is to shed another point of view on a misunderstood segment of our society.
Mark:
We are not discussing the right "kollel system" here. But your ideas do have some merit to them.
Bray hit the nail on the head.
Not I. One of the seminal Jewish Thinkers of the 20th century.
But here, you swung the hammer. His hammer, but you still hit the nail.. 
However, I don't think many of those learning are truly committed to Torah study at the cost of poverty.
True in some instances, farthest thing from the truth in most others.
Shkoyakh Rabbi. Bear's not the only blushing blogger now...
“Their mistakes are subject to eternal, spiritual ramifications. That is stressful.”
Oh please. This is not why they’re stressed, its just a weak rationalization. No one (sane) is sitting around obsessing about “denied life” or "eternal ramifications" of their learning.
untrue- serious bokhrim and yungerleit may be consciously unaware of the dynamic that I described but if you see how they sweat to figure out a sugya , how anxious and unhappy they are while "in the dark" and how ecstatic when they figure things out you'd agree with my description.
Whether or not these same guys are the smokers is anyones guess.
But serious learning IS stressful for this reason whether or not the learners can articulate the reason for their stress.
One needn't be Camus to experience existential angst.
at least in his mind he is "holding up the world", that is a pretty strong mechayev.
last i checked shabbos 109a (i think) states clearly (or was it 101?) that the torah study of an adult does not support the world, only the torah study of children who have never known sin. (and for those who say gedolim never know sin, the people speaking these words were amoraim, who took it for granted that they and all their colleagues had sinned.)
Adults torah study is mostly a selfish endeavor, and if you do not understand it, and it is talmud, then you are being bittul zman if you attempt to do so.
if a person has spent his life in kollel and is not aware of that oft stated fact (its all over the talmud and sifrei halacha), then he is an ignoramous, no true gadol, and is nothing but a schnorrer and a bragart.
(that is that adults torah study does not support the world. The chiddush that study of talmud by one who does not understand is being bittul zman is my own extrapolation from the halachot of torah study related in the siman relateding to shnayim mikra v'echad targum.)
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