I agree totally that women should have expanded ritual roles in tefilla and kriat hatorah. But your analogy is not a great one.
The minhag of going to Meron on Lag BaOmer is just that - a minhag. Those who go don't claim it's halacha. While I think that women's laining is not assur today, there have been numerous halachic objections over the centuries that have great force in certain communities and things aren't going to change overnight.
Furthermore, those who don't go to Meron don't have to see the people who do. It's something that some people do but doesn't become a issue for most of klal yisrael. Out of sight, out of mind.
I guess I'm somewhat consistent, then. I'm not a big fan of `aliyos for women, or of the pilgrimage to Meron, upsherin, "Nusach Sfard," etc.
I am, though, a big fan of Chanukah, Purim, and women davening and making a zimun.
It's true that everything in my second paragraph is an enactment of Chazal, and everything in my first paragraph is not. But I'm not saying that anything new is bad. Just that it has to be analayzed first to see whether it is spiritually constructive. We shouldn't be quick to jump on bandwagons. Even Purim was not accepted overnight. I am aware that some see both the push toward egalitarianism and the increased influence of mysticism as developments that are spiritually constructive, but I do not.
You forgot bat mitzvas in the list of things that were invented recently and have moved (relatively) mainstream. And women saying kaddish.
One more thing:
I'm no chareidi, but I will point out that your reference to "tens of thousands of Haredim," while technically true, is somewhat misleading. Chareidim != chasidim. I suspect that there will be plenty of kipot serugot in Meron as well, and that there are plenty of Litvishe chareidim to whom the whole concept seems totally foreign.
In fact, sometimes I think that phenomenon of "chassidization" of Jews from "misnageid" backgrounds has affected the dati-le'umi community (in which I live) more than it has the Litvishe chareidi community. This is contrary to what DovBear has suggested in many posts, but admittedly, I am talking more about the situation in Israel than in the U.S.
In fact, sometimes I think that phenomenon of "chassidization" of Jews from "misnageid" backgrounds has affected the dati-le'umi community (in which I live) more than it has the Litvishe chareidi community.
Especially with the "chardal" community in Israel. My nephews & nieces have some decidedly chassidish ideas despite their father being an ardent follower of the Rav and Brisker philosophy.
If you haven't already seen it, check out R' Alan Yuter's review (PDF) of Avraham Grossman's Pious and Rebellious: Jewish Women in Medieval Europe. I haven't read the book yet, but it appears that R' Grossman makes many of the points you wish to make.
I'll be honest, though: I don't have a problem with rabbis being (small c) conservative on innovations, even halachically defensible ones. To my way of thinking, a rabbi is more than just a regulatory machine ("This is permitted. This is not."). Rabbis have a responsibility to consider social ramifications of their actions, and should pasken accordingly. The problem that I do have is when rabbis insist that their hashkafic concerns equal halachic law, and that these laws are ya'harog ve'al ya'avor.
>Why are some updates ok, and others unacceptable?
Short hand answer:
Because some updates are ok, and others unacceptable.
Cherem D'Rabenu Gershom was OK. Repealing it to assuage the shidduch crisis is not e.g.
>Why are some updates ok, and others unacceptable?
each proposed "update" or co-opting must be considered by Halakhic experts within there unique historical and cultural context.
Furthermore not every update, even those forwarded by Charedi scholars, gain traction or acceptance. Think Radzyner T'cheles. Others are blips on the historical scene and recede into the musty stacks of Acadaemia. Think Herschian TIDE.
"each proposed "update" or co-opting must be considered by Halakhic experts within there unique historical and cultural context."
The Meron "update" was, and true to his motto of "chadash assur min hatorah" the Chasam Sofer blasted the 'custom' publicly, and even went so far as to insinuate that the earthquake zfas suffered may have been a repreccussion of the practice.
I'm waiting for someoen to blast "Chai Rotel Mashkeh"
each proposed "update" or co-opting must be considered by Halakhic experts within there unique historical and cultural context."
That only happens in dreamland. What happens in the real world is this:
1 - People start doing stuff
2 - More people start doing it, too
3 - Authorities get nervous (see Chatam Sofer on Meron, for ecample)
4 - People keep doing it.
5 - Authorities aquiece
6 - Authorities make up retroreasons to justify the new practice (see Masks on Purim, or the orlah nonesense used to justify upshurin)
If Db gets wind of that 'custom'.....
too late:
http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2006...en-
gallons.html
1 - People start doing stuff,2 - More people start doing it too,3 - Authorities get nervous (see Chatam Sofer on Meron, for ecample), 4 - People keep doing it.,5 - Authorities aquiece
In your skewed view of history you paint with too broad a brush.
The steps that you enumerate do not work for Pruzbul, Yom Tov Sheni, heter iska, Cherem D'Rabenu Gershom, mechiras chometz, Rabenu Tam T'filin, T'cheles, Urban Eruvin to name a few.
While some of these may have been rabbinic/Halakhic REACTIONS to prevailing social norms they trickled down from the top and wer in no way grass roots movements/changes taht the Rabbis rubber stamped ipso facto.
How do you think Nusach s'fard spread among Chasidim? Who innovated the change in nusach? The Rebbes or the Chasidm?
Why doesn't a shtreimel bother me as much as something like 'chai rotel', reading ketores from a parchment, perek shirah, parshas haman, etc?
"Woman are required to daven ... Why isn't this taught/encouraged? Why is the focus on baking challah, and not on fulfilling a biblical demand?"
I disagree with your premise. Women/girls are taught to daven daily.
and davening may be rabbinic not Biblical. certainly Nusach is.
Gabe,
Because wearing a shtreimel is religiously neutral. There's nothing wrong with it -- it's basically just a statement of group identification. I don't think wearing davka a coloful kippah serugah has any inherent positive or negative religious value, but I do so in order to identify with my group. You probably wear davka a fedora for the same reason.
The "segulah" items, on the other hand, can be a serious hashkafic problem if one attributes too much power to them.
(That last "if" is important. Saying "veyitein lekha," for example, is a veritable minhag Ashkenaz, but I don't think that saying it will cause me to have a more successful week. I think it's a poignant reminder, as the week starts, that the keys to having a successful week are in Hashem's hands. One could, in theory, practice these newer minhagim with that appropriate sort of kavvanah as well, and it's nice to judge their practitioners lekhaf zekhus when we can.)
this could have only occured because the Meron ritual filled some sort of gap in the spiritual life of those who chose to accept it
KOFER!
There are no spiritual gaps in Torah True(R) Judaism!!
There are only Jews insufficiently holy of finding fulfillment in the complete, comprehensive, and permanently completed Judaism we have received, word-for-farbishiner-word, from har Sinai.
KOFER!!!
In your skewed view of history you paint with too broad a brush.
I agree some thngs go top to bottom. Other things start from the grass roots. SO?
So you're the one in dreamland and your dreams are my nightmares.
"Because wearing a shtreimel is religiously neutral."
Nah, that's not it. One of my biggest pet peeves is the new "minhag" of singing 'im eshkocheich' after the chupah, not much parever than that. (I bet that's the way the upsherin thing started.) V'yiten l'chah on the otherhand, not only doesn't bother me, I say it myself as a means of reminding myself that 'kol brchaan dleila vtaataah byoma shviyaa talyan'
So what is the explanation as to why women still do have get aliyot or any type of honor for that matter in OJ communities?
Cause I am annoyed that now that I belong to a non-OJ shul - I tend to turn down offers for these honors because I have residual feelings of weirdness having been brought up OJ that I wish I didn't have. And when I got the one aliya that I did - it was so emotional that I cried and have since stayed away from doing it again.
Scars of the OJ world - having been relegated to the back of the shul for so many years of my life and being given cooking classes instead of gemara classes.
But maybe DB will teach me to layn Megilat Esther for next year. . .Still trying to get comfortable sitting in the front of the bus.
The Meron "update" was, and true to his motto of "chadash assur min hatorah" the Chasam Sofer blasted the 'custom' publicly, and even went so far as to insinuate that the earthquake zfas suffered may have been a repreccussion of the practice.
I thought the T'zfat earthquake was a repercussion of the asian tectonic plate gringing against the african tectonic plate at the point of the syrian rift.
Dov: "That only happens in dreamland. What happens in the real world is this:
1 - People start doing stuff
2 - More people start doing it, too
3 - Authorities get nervous (see Chatam Sofer on Meron, for ecample)
4 - People keep doing it.
5 - Authorities aquiece
6 - Authorities make up retroreasons to justify the new practice (see Masks on Purim, or the orlah nonesense used to justify upshurin)"
This is how it works in most things, not just Judaism. Except in Human Resources where 5 never happens and 6 is Authorities clamp down destroying morale.
Other than that, entirely accurate for many things.
I thought the T'zfat earthquake was a repercussion of the asian tectonic plate gringing against the african tectonic plate at the point of the syrian rift.
(Thumbs up)
"And when I got the one aliya that I did - it was so emotional that I cried and have since stayed away from doing it again."
Help me understand why an atheist would cry at an aliyah. I mean, mumbling meaningless words over a parchment scroll some people wrote, where does emotion come from?
Gabe - if you are looking for some type of proof that I believe in god or something - don't get too excited.
"I thought the T'zfat earthquake was a repercussion of the asian tectonic plate gringing against the african tectonic plate at the point of the syrian rift"
Correct, and Sheik Ahmed Yassin was not killed because of an Israeli attack, and certainly not due to Israeli policies, he died because his heart stopped beating.
It is more about being treated as a first class citizen rather than a second class one and the emotion involved in being free to be an equal in this world - not being held back anymore by some patriarchal system that kept me in the back, quiet, covered up, with an inferior education.
" It is more about being treated as a first class citizen rather than a second class one and the emotion involved in being free to be an equal in this world - not being held back anymore by some patriarchal system that kept me in the back, quiet, covered up, with an inferior education.
TikunOlam | 05.22.08 - 6:05 pm | # "
But then you should've cried the first time you sat in the main sanctuary. BTW, I'm not looking for signs, I already told you, I believe, and that's enough for me, I have zero need to know or prove.
Nah, sitting in a sanctuary I had done before - that was not so different in how it felt because I was still acting in a passive role. Getting an aliyah felt like something active - being invited to get the aliyah was being treated with respect as a woman equal to a man that I had never felt before in my Jewish life. Being offered an honor because I donated some time to make the preschool siddurim was being appreciated in a way that women were never showed appreciation in my childhood. I was not Mrs. some guy's name - I was my own person - an equal contributing member of the community. (on an aside - my friends threw some candy at me calling it my bat mitzvah - and I would only go up for the aliyah if my good friend, who happens to be the rabbi's daughter would come with me)
So Rav Gabe - I asked for a halachic explanation - am I going to get one?
gag me with a spoon
Chaim?
can't even stand the description of equal treatment of women in my synogogue that you need to be gagged with a spoon?
don't worry - I never went for an aliyah again - was too traumatized by the Chaim's of my youth to feel comfortable.
TO - gabe can't understand why that was meaningful to you because he has never been in that kind of situation (from the comments I've read of yours, gabe).
Restrictions on other people's participation never really impact us the same way they do the restricted person.
Tzip,
Absolutely. But Gabe has another agenda - he is trying to prove to me (though he will argue otherwise) that it could not be that I felt uverwhelmed with emotion like a prisoner seeing her first light of day as a free woman - but rather it must be further evidence of what he is so sure is true. That there is no such thing as an atheist.
That - and now he has to respond to a whole set of other issues with regards to the treatment of women in his community - a community for which he offers unwaivering support no matter what they seem to do.
It is more about being treated as a first class citizen rather than a second class one and the emotion involved in being free to be an equal in this world - not being held back anymore by some patriarchal system that kept me in the back, quiet, covered up, with an inferior education
wonderful - now we've got the Rosa Parks of the blogosphere - the back of the shul is not the back of the bus
Ralph - I going to assume you are a male Ralph - is that fair to say?
Trying sitting there for a while and tell me how *you* feel.
Would be proud to be the Rosa Parks of the blogosphere. I actually can't imagine a higher compliment.
TikkunOlam
What is thou email address?
Uh oh. Am I in trouble? Something I said?
tikunolamdb@gmail.com
Well you mentioned you took cooking classes instead of gmara classes. I just wanted to get some side dish recipes.
TikunOlam,
How is the Foster Care going...I am getting closer.
Well then, email me - I know how to make some mean kugels, I can braid challah, make blintzes from scratch, multiple types of cheesecake and other assorted foods to please the palate of my bashert.
Took typing and sewing too - I can even sew my own long skirts. I do find that taking typing was very useful though.
Esther,
Going well - still working on licensure - we are really only being held up because we have to make up one class due to missing it for the Seders. Our fingerprints are through, we had our first homevisit which went really well, our references are all in. It is a long process - hope to be ready to have a child in our home by early fall. We decided to ask for a girl.
Pat Buchanan agrees with Dov Bear!
At least DB is talking about Lag Bomer.
My local Silow -caroll federation rag didn't even metion it today.
" TO - gabe can't understand why that was meaningful to you because he has never been in that kind of situation (from the comments I've read of yours, gabe). "
You're wrong, restriction from participation is something I experience, I just choose to realize that I am not entitled to everything I wish to be entitled to. I'm a prince, and I'm not allowed to wallow in the mud like the other boys. I am a kohen, so I'm not entitled to go to the Kivrei Tzadikim like my coreligionists. Every one gets to go into the mearas hamachpeila, and I have to stand outside. My daughter is lead actress in the school musical, and I can't see her perform. Let's not gorget that I'll never experience bringing a child into this world. The father part is hoowey compared to the bond the mother enjoys. There's alot I'm restricted from, and I'm happy being me.
I thought the issue of women getting aliyos was because it would shame the men who don't understand Hebrew and the Kriah. If this is the case, as I understand it, I think women should be getting aliyos in communities where the congregation can understand the Kriah.
/For what it's worth, I'm am frummer yid with a minor in Women's Studies.
Cherem D'Rabenu Gershom was OK.
Why? Because that's what you were told by your teachers, and you'd be the recipient of negative social pressure if you opposed the concept.
After all, the only reason for the main part of the cherem (prohibiting polygamy) was to fit in with the local goyim (Christians in this case.) And your knock on the Reformers was that all they were trying to do was fit in with the goyim!
Repealing it to assuage the shidduch crisis is not e.g.
Well, yes, that wouldn't be a good idea because civil law would make such a repeal a dead letter.
Interesting post....
and davening may be rabbinic not Biblical. certainly Nusach is.
I disagree. Didn't Daniel daven? The Nusach, I would say mostly Rabbinic.
I disagree with your premise. Women/girls are taught to daven daily.
Someone should tell my wife and daughter.
/Seriously, my wife has to stay in the hospital overnight post surgery. Say a quick tefillah for רחל בת ליבה if you can.
"So what is the explanation as to why women still do have get aliyot or any type of honor for that matter in OJ communities?"
I heard the following from Rabbi Barry Freundel:
Women never took on the obligation of praying three (or two, which is actually the halachah) times a day with a minyan. If Jewish women as a group would do that, they would then be counted for a minyan and receive aliyot. And furthermore there is even a precedent for this: visually impaired Jewish men were excluded from aliyot and not counted for a minyan in talmudic times, but are given aliyot and count for a minyan today.
"and davening may be rabbinic not Biblical. certainly Nusach is.
I disagree. Didn't Daniel daven? The Nusach, I would say mostly Rabbinic."
Famous machloket between Rambam and Ramban.
"Pat Buchanan agrees with Dov Bear!"
Buchanan is a rasha!
"quiet, covered up, with an inferior education.TikunOlam | 05.22.08 - 6:05 pm | #"
You must mean JEWISH education, Most don't consider Ivy League (even if it Columbia Jewniversity) an inferior education. The inferior education was more likely the result of your choosing an MO school, rather than your gender. I'll let you in on a secret, those MO schools don't give the guys much of an education either.
"So Rav Gabe - I asked for a halachic explanation - am I going to get one?TikunOlam | 05.22.08 - 6:15 pm | #"
I'm gonna tell you my opinion as to why there is little to no support for women to take a more active roll in Chareidi public functions.
A. One of the primary focuses of Chareidi society is perpetuating klal yisroel. The resources expended on building large families exceeds even those dedicated to learning. Tuition is the biggest burden on the chareidi families from early on in their marriage (within the first 4-5 yrs it begins for most, continuing for decades). {I can tell you from personal experience, I shell out over 50 k a year on tuitions, have done so for 10 yrs, and will continue to do so for another 10 at least (IY'H).that's over a million dollars on tuitions} Despite this fact, no chareidi decides, I'm gonna stop having kids, it's enough, and the burden is too hard, I could retire at 60, were it not for having more kids, not to mention that I'm no longer a 25 year. Old spring chicken with the energy to run to the playground with the little one, do homework, chase frogs, whatever. Sunday afternoon naps look mighty tempting, and don't think I wouldn't enjoy going on vacation alone with my wife more than once every 7 or 8 years. Begging relatives to watch the older kids, and inevitably taking an infant along with us, yet we don't believe in limiting our family sizes in order to have our resources (both TIME and financial) available for leisurely pursuits. As soon as our children are of age (some might say well before they're of age) the focus turns to building upon the family further, by getting to work on the next generation. Weddings are the next major expenditure for the Chareidim. There is no stigma scarier for Chareidi families than medical defects. The phobia about hurting the chances for a shidduch are real, because the focus is so intense on perpetuating that even the slightest chance that something might effect those efforts in a negative way is reason enough to turn down the proposal. The reasources put up by the chareidi community for fertility treatments, both private and from charitable organizations is unmatched by any segment of society. Dor yesharim, the brainchild of the chareidi community to eliminate genetic deseases. With no government funding!
Raising large families and focusing on public responsibilities is mutually exclusive. Yes, I know the father is Just as capable as the mother of assuming parental responsibilities. However the fact is, only one parent has the right equipment for childbirth, nursing, and the sensitivity to an infant's needs. In addition, society at large, until recently, was just as responsible for the female assuming the traditional role of nurturer, that hasn't changed amongst Chareidim. Were there to be a change in focus of the Chareidi women from growing the family to out-of-the-home pursuits, the family unit, our sorce of strength, would be weakened. Therefore, any attempts at exposure to additional pursuits are discouraged, irregardless of their permissability according to the letter of the law. Chareidim discourage expanding participation as a means of maintaining the focus on the all important task, not as a means of keeping the woman down. It's for the same reason that focusing on a career is discouraged.
B.'Kol kvudah bas melech pnima' is not a 'rule' amongst chareidim, it's a mindset. My wife for instance, she really lives it! she takes pride in her efforts at making herself invisible to anyone but her family. Even the hours she volunteers, she'll take the most demeaning back room jobs, just to avoid any limelight. Ever go to a bar-mitzvah, and hear the bar-mitzvah boy's father get up and thank his wife? Amongst chareidim it is still uncommon to hear. It's not something that can be verbalized very well, and it's more of a sense than a 'letter of the law" halachah.
If you think she's losing out by this, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're not privy to the glow she has while she's picking a child up off the bus, or after successfully avoiding attention. This comment is too long as it is, but there is more to elaborate on this, but this is to hostile a forum in which to discuss this reasonably (IMO).
FWIW, my daughters are taught that they are required to make a zimun, they choose not to (they hardly ever eat enough carbs to bentch anyway).
Gabe,
That was quite an explanation, and at 3:46 am no less?
While I can't imagine anyone being happy and fulfilled living the life you just described - my imagination is limited by what I know and have experienced.
So while I am tempted to pick on just about everything you said and ask you further questions - I will try my best to be respectful.
can't even stand the description of equal treatment of women in my synogogue that you need to be gagged with a spoon?
If that fits into your organization of reality fine. What causes me to reach for the spoon is your incredibly twisted sense of victimization and havdala obliviousness.
Question TO: Are you as offended /do you share "solidarity" senses of opression and apartheid for the jewish MEN who cannot recieve the first two aliyot and who will never ascend the dukhan for the priestly blessing?
Now I'll play armcahir psychologist: It's no wonder you're an atheist. Those who have low havdala tolerance are most uncomfortable with the havdala between Creator and creature. Once you posit a Creator you must be both inspired by the cpacity to imitate Creator and awed by the deepest of chasms that seperates nivra from borei. better to just factor Creator out of the equation. He makes being human fell, nebikh, second class.
Al Gore:
Many Biblical figures prayed before Daniel.
I was referring to whether the REQUIREMENT for daily/thrice daily prayer is of Torah or Rabbinic orgin (M'Doraysa or M'Drabonon)
"Now I'll play armcahir psychologist: "
Chaim - my dear brother - don't quit your day job just yet. . .
"While I can't imagine anyone being happy and fulfilled living the life you just described"
Imagine if you volunteered for a presidential candidate's campaign, and some low level staffer had you mopping the floors of the campaign headquarters, you'd feel pretty unfulfilled. Imagine however if the candidate himself came to you and asked you to stuff envelopes for a swng district, one which would make or break the campaign. Even though you were involved in a meaningful task, you had plans to work on coordinating a rally for some future state!, real fulfilling work!, but if senator Obama himself says, "trust me, this is more important, if we win this district, it's going to be by only a handful of votes, your envelopes will mean the difference between whether our campaign survives or dies", you are going to feel fulfilled stuffing those envelopes, especially when you discover that those few envelopes were what made the difference.
You can't imagine feeling fulfilled because (on the surface?) you doubt the concept that living such a life is fulfilling the purpose for which the creator put you here. For those who do feel that way, can you imagine a greater sense of happiness and fulfillment then being called upon by THE ALMIGHTY to do something, and going ahead and doing it?
Now imagine further, convention night, when those few swing voters are there in the crowd, around the sign for their district. The candidate is making his speech accepting the nomination, in middle of the speech he says, "you know, if not for that section over there, (indicating your swing voters) we wouldn't be here tonight, you guys are the ones I have to thank!" a roar goes up from the crowd! do you think you'd feel fulfilled with the knowledge that it was your efforts that made it happen?
My wife and thousands like her feel fulfilled, secure in the knowledge that this is the important task Hashem has for them. They know that when "the big day comes"-'Yom hashem hagadol vhanorah', it is going to be the swing votes which they took care of that are singled out (tinokos shel bais rabban). Their sense of fulfillment is far greater than any you could imagine.
Chaim - my dear brother - don't quit your day job just yet. . .
No need to. If I keep up the obsessive blogging they'll probably fire me first.
Sorry I hurt your feelings like so many Chaims of your youth but could you please deign to answer my question?
Gabe,
Before I actually respond to you and Chaim - I have to make something clear.
I am not, and have never been an Obama supporter. DB is my friend - but he and I do not share political views - not with regards to America and certainly not on Israel.
Ok, just needed to get that out of the way.
"So while I am tempted to pick on just about everything you said and ask you further questions - I will try my best to be respectful.
TikunOlam | 05.23.08 - 7:30 am | #"
I take no offense at any questions, and have no fear. I am secure enough in my belief that exploring it through someone else's qestions is like a taking out an heirloom out of the safe to show someone, and answering their questions about it's origins, its history, etc. I don't often get a chance to appreciate its beauty while its in the safe. I am not afraid that they'll notice a flaw in the peice, to me its beauty is beyond quetion.
"I am not, and have never been an Obama supporter"
So switch 'Obama' for Ross Perot...
"Question TO: Are you as offended /do you share "solidarity" senses of opression and apartheid for the jewish MEN who cannot recieve the first two aliyot and who will never ascend the dukhan for the priestly blessing?"
Ok. The question was not worded in a way that I am sure what you are asking - but I think I may know what you are getting at.
If you are saying that while all humans are of equal value - each one is given a different lot, different roles, different talents and dealt a different set of cards - of course I agree.
However, this "separate but equal" concept is not an easy one to always navigate. Assuming that you are limited by halacha - everything else that is not based on actual halacha should be open to be revisited - if it means progress with regards to providing people who are assumed to be of equal worth - with equal opportunities.
Was separating whites and blacks in resturants, restrooms and classrooms really separate but equal? Most would argue not, hence revisiting the law and making the changes.
Some things can't be changed - but others can. I think that things that can be changed to ensure equal treatment and equal opportunities should - (I will accept -provided in does not overstep limitations of halacha).
"Some things can't be changed - but others can. I think that things that can be changed to ensure equal treatment and equal opportunities should - (I will accept -provided in does not overstep limitations of halacha).
TikunOlam | 05.23.08 - 9:58 am | #"
My relative used to take aspirin for her arthritis, she 'changed' to Vioxx, now she's got heart trouble as well. change is not always good, especially when the potential repreccussions are so beyond our imagination. Yes, there are occasions where the immediate need requires taking a risk and trying something new even though we don't know what the repreccussions will be. If the aspirin stopped working for her, the pain would have been such that she'd have had to try the vioxx (the bais yaakov movement would be a prime example where the need for change outweighed the potential risks), but simply because there was something new and different available is no reason to change.
broaden your horizons. Consider halkha, minhag and hashqafa i.e. the spirit of the law.
Judaism is a wierd mishmash of a meritocracy and a culture/religion of clear cut biologically assigned roles.
Most adherents since the smashing of the Korakh rebellion (which was, at least overtly, a cry for egalitarianism, but covertly, last-page-of-Animal-Farm-like a move to replace the current hierarchy with a new one that would advnce the rebels)have made peace with this, take advantage of the meritocracy aspects and find fullfillment within the boundaries of their assigned roles.
"and at 3:46 am no less?"
With five weeks of growth on my face, I was anxiously awaiting sunrise so i could finally remove it.
So by both your logics I should still feel ok with being sold by my father for a sum of cattle to be owned by my husband. Never have the right to learn to read and write, own land, voice an opinion or vote. Spend my life barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen limited to being a baby machine and a means for sexual gratification and otherwise serve my male master and nothing else - with my mouth firmly shut even if what I have to say could make a positive difference because far be it for me to be anything but invisible in this world. Just accept my lot in life as a woman.
This is what you believe Hashem intended when he created woman? He gave her a strong body, a strong mind and a strong will just to not use for all its talents in this world? Was this some kind of test that Hashem gave women you think. Here - I am going to give you a generous IQ, a healthy body, multiple talents - but don't use them - that is your challenge in life - that is how you can best serve me.
All that she could give to her family, her community and the world that Hashem created? Hashem's intention was to limit where she should express all of her talents, gifts and creativity that he bestowed upon her? I would think that moving in the direction of allowing - and encouraging woman to go where their G-d given gifts take them would be thought of as a way to *serve* Hashem.
But that is one of the reasons I don't live in your communities. It is so backwards it is unbelievable.
Sounds to me like a couple of men once again apologizing for the marginalization of women, by using the old G-d excuse - as though this was the way it was intended. What a joke. I am so thankful for the Nishmats, Brovenders and Women's minyanim of this day and age - thankful knowing that even in the Orthodox world - there are those who don't think like you.
but if senator [X] himself says, "trust me, this is more important, if we win this district, it's going to be by only a handful of votes, your envelopes will mean the difference between whether our campaign survives or dies", you are going to feel fulfilled stuffing those envelopes,
Yeah, but Gabe, that's not what we've got (unless your wife and her friends are new Moshe-like prophets).
For Jewish women, we have a bunch of men over in the corner of the room, shunning all the other staffers, claiming that THEY are the only ones who received Senator X's "true" instructions, and that he says all the women (or all the people with long hair, or all the people from state x) need to go into another room and stuff envelopes, where we won't distract them from their more important work.
It's hard to take these guys seriously.
Especially if none of you have ever actually met Senator X in person, including the guys in the corner.
gabe,
let's say a Chareidi woman is either unmarried (maybe her husband passed away, maybe she has not yet been able to find a shidduch), or that she is unable to have kids. Where does she fit into your paradigm, and why shouldn't she be able to participate in public pursuits?
"So by both your logics I should still feel ok with being sold by my father for a sum of cattle to be owned by my husband."
Seems to me like you've given your father more credit than that in the past. The Torah gives jewish fathers more credit than that as well. In a history of thousands of years, most of which we were unique in our focus on literature, how many stories have been handed down that you've read about father's selling their daughters?
"Never have the right to learn to read and write, own land, voice an opinion or vote. Spend my life barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen"
Do you really believe that that's a fact? Do you really believe my wife doesn't know how to read?, isn't co-owner of our house? doesn't vote? or wear shoes?
"limited to being a baby machine and a means for sexual gratification and otherwise serve my male master and nothing else- with my mouth firmly shut even if what I have to say could make a positive difference because far be it for me to be anything but invisible in this world. Just accept my lot in life as a woman."
Is that how you view your parents household?
Not 'accept' your lot..., 'rejoice in' your lot. You've had children, was it so terrible an experience? I envy my wife's having been able to experience that. As far as a "means of..." if you view the marital relationship as such, it's a shame. The great joy in marriage is mutually fufilling each others needs. Ones wife is no more a means of acheiving personal gratification than a husband is to his wife. On the contrary, the greatest joy is in pleasing ones spouse, it is not an obligation, it is a priviledge. This holds true in orthodox homes as well. For you to insinuate otherwise is slanderous, look at your parents own home and call me a liar, I dare you.
"This is what you believe Hashem intended when he created woman? He gave her a strong body, a strong mind and a strong will just to not use for all its talents in this world?"
Hashem gave woman mny talents, he gave the jewish woman the added talent, of being capable of bringing HIS children into this world, and raising them. That is the greatest talent they have. If Einstein were able to paint as well, and focused his energies on his painting, instead of physics, it would be a waste. Nothing wrong with him excersizing his talents, having a hobby, but where hould the primary focus be?"
" Was this some kind of test that Hashem gave women you think. Here - I am going to give you a generous IQ, a healthy body, multiple talents - but don't use them - that is your challenge in life - that is how you can best serve me."
Change the word 'use' to 'abuse', and I'd say you've got it.
"All that she could give to her family, her community and the world that Hashem created?"
But what is the greatest thing she could give? That's where we differ.
" Hashem's intention was to limit where she should express all of her talents, gifts and creativity that he bestowed upon her?"
The greatest piano player in the world can't play on my piano at night while I'm trying to sleep.
" I would think that moving in the direction of allowing - and encouraging woman to go where their G-d given gifts take them would be thought of as a way to *serve* Hashem."
Absolutely, but the greatest gift, and primary *service* must not be neglected.
"But that is one of the reasons I don't live in your communities. It is so backwards it is unbelievable."
Ah, now who's berating and demonizing?
"I am so thankful for the Nishmats, Brovenders and Women's minyanim of this day and age - thankful knowing that even in the Orthodox world - there are those who don't think like you."
Yes, and can you tell me how many second and third generations of these remain true to their religion?
"For Jewish women, we have a bunch of men over in the corner of the room, shunning all the other staffers, claiming that THEY are the only ones who received Senator X's "true" instructions, and that he says all the women (or all the people with long hair, or all the people from state x) need to go into another room and stuff envelopes, where we won't distract them from their more important work."
No, the guys in the corner, who met with the district manager, who met with the cheif of staff who met with the senator said: "the senator needs the envelopes sealed, none of us have tongues, however there are some tonguelar people on the staff, we need all tonguelar people sealing envelopes!". In addition, there was a memo sent to all employees and volunteers of the campaign, signed by the Senator, and read at a press conference attended by 2 million people, and broadcast all over the world, wherein he said envelope sealing is the first order of buisness.
"anon | 05.23.08 - 11:33 am | #"
My response was to TO's question as to why Orthodoxy doesn't pursue expantion of the woman's role. I provided my view as to why there is no effort in that arena. There are obviously going to be exceptions, but the exceptions can't control policy.
gabe, so that means that all of those women who are exceptions should be marginalized and essentially viewed as worthless because they can't do the one thing which you're saying is valid for women to do? Even if it's something they want to do but can't right now?
So by both your logics I should still feel ok with being sold by my father for a sum of cattle to be owned by my husband. Never have the right to learn to read and write, own land, voice an opinion or vote. Spend my life barefoot
Barefoot? What is is about Orthodoxy, in your warped and slanderous conception, that demands that women, davka, go barfoot? Last time I checked the only mandates fro being barefoot are for Moshe @ the Bush and for kohanim in the Miqdash.
and pregnant in the kitchen limited to being a baby machine
fertility and the child-bearing-rearing years are a portion of a life, not a lifetime. Why do you find this limiting demeaning? A aprent creates and shapes other human beings in partnership with and in the image of G-d. Done well it's hard to imagine a lifes work MORE meaningful. BTW it,as I'm sure you know, is never a "dedicated" job but must always be combined with jobs, careers and household maintainenece for BOTH mothers and fathers.
and a means for sexual gratification
Huh? Since when is this a one way street. Assuming you own a K'subah have you ever read it? Halkhically, your husband is at least as much there for your gratification as you are for his.
and otherwise serve my male master and nothing else
Where are you getting this tripe from? Married men and women have mutual onligations to one another.
For most of Jewish history until the very recent Kollel revolution the norm was men being the breadwinners and eking out livings. Who was working for whom? Who was the master and who was the servant?
with my mouth firmly shut even if what I have to say could make a positive difference because far be it for me to be anything but invisible in this world. Just accept my lot in life as a woman.
Again I have no idea waht your talking about. Ever read sifrei Chofetz Chaim? Keeping ones mouth shut as much as possible when not discussing divrei Torah is a good idea for all genders and sexual orientations.
"Do you really believe that that's a fact? Do you really believe my wife doesn't know how to read?, isn't co-owner of our house? doesn't vote? or wear shoes?"
Of course not! My point is that there has been change - there has always been change - especially with regards to the woman's role in this world.
And with regards to motherhood - I don't think I need to tell you how I feel about the central role of caregiving to children now do I?
But there is no reason that a mother can't also use her other talents. No one is one demensional. No one is just one thing in this world. That is the way Hashem created us.
In my MO upbringing I was not raised to believe that women should be invisible. I was not raised to believe that I should not use all my brain's potential. I was not raised to believe that my entire life should be based on my role as a mother and a wife and that the only children I should care for was my own.
And while I put my biological family first (hence my being home today to do housekeeping and pick my children from their early day at school as it is erev shabbat so it is a shorter day) it does not mean that I need to squash everything else.
Of course if I had 10 biological children - I can't imagine I would have time to take a shower much less pursue a career to help support my family, help pay for my children's tuition and treat mentally ill children while earning my paycheck.
But of course, I am sure that Hashem would prefer that I spend my time baking challah rather than help some kids with their psychoses and suicidal behavior. Because without my education and without my options - I could have never had the opportunity to discover that Hashem granted me with the gift to be able to help desperate children find hope in their lives. But hey, it is all about priorities.
So I didn't have a baby this year. Maybe I helped other people's babies live to see another day. And last I checked - all these folks were Hashem's babies - not just the ones we Jewesses give birth to.
Still waiting on what it is you think we heathens do with our time - with all these forbidden fruits we are tasting.
"And last I checked - all these folks were Hashem's babies - not just the ones we Jewesses give birth to."
The Torah refers to Jewish people as "Banim Aten Lashem elokeichem"
Where as others are "ma'asei yadai", not Banim.
"The reasources put up by the chareidi community for fertility treatments, both private and from charitable organizations is unmatched by any segment of society."
Not true; in New York State it is largely paid for by insurance because the state government mandated it (at the instigation of Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, and Orthodox Jew who is a graduate of the Rabbi Jacob Joseph Yeshiva and Yeshiva College).
" Dor yesharim, the brainchild of the chareidi community to eliminate genetic deseases. With no government funding!"
Also not true; much of the research to develop those genetic tests was done with government funding.
"any attempts at exposure to additional pursuits are discouraged"
Kollel wives supporting their husbands in full time learning?
"my daughters are taught that they are required to make a zimun, they choose not to"
As orthodox Jews we are not permitted to "choose" not to do something that we have been taught is a chiyuv. Isn't denial of a single mitzvah denial of the entire Torah?
This is actually an example of a situation in which the feminists are absolutely correct in their criticism of Orthodoxy. The clear majority opinion in halachic texts is that a zimun for women is permiited, which some very significant opinions saying it is a chiyuv (apparently including your daughters' teachers). Yet I personally know women who have been instructed NEVER to do this. Is it any wonder that rabbinic authority gets questioned when rabbis say that things that actually ARE forbidden are in fact forbidden?
"My wife and thousands like her feel fulfilled"
I am very happy for her and have no desire to change anything for her.
"Was separating whites and blacks in resturants, restrooms and classrooms really separate but equal? "
Starting in the late 1940s, a great attorney named Oliver Hill started filing lawsuits in Virginia challenging school funding of the then racially segregated school systems on the grounds that they were not equal. I think he won every case (to the great chagrin of the racists who then ran most of the state).
"a wierd mishmash of a meritocracy and a culture/religion of clear cut biologically assigned roles"
Yet it is clear that in the rabbinic tradition, merit outranks biology. A mamzer who is a talmid chacham is valued more highly than an Am Haaretz kohein gadol. There is no reason this would not apply to women vs. men.
"apologizing for the marginalization of women"
I don't apologize for it, I think it is wrong.
"I was not raised to believe that I should not use all my brain's potential."
Ah, not even when that potential interefered with halacha? You fail again to include hashkafah in your equation. If potential interferes with hashkafah, it takes a back seat amongst chareidim. In the same way it (ostensibly) does when it conflicts with halachah, amongst all forms of orthodoxy.
"even when that potential interefered with halacha"
What is the conflict?
Thanks Charlie,
Seriously. What is the conflict? And who pray tell should be then providing for the mentally ill of the chareidi community or Jewish community for that matter? If no one can then no one will. That is why I have had patients drive from Monsey to my office which is not even in the same state - just to get a competent psychologist to treat a child who has been sexually abused by another chareidi in the community who may have some basic understanding of their community. While the perpretrator - who of course, is a father of multiple children himself - will not be getting treatment - because who is the community could even provide it??
In addition, there was a memo sent to all employees and volunteers of the campaign, signed by the Senator, and read at a press conference attended by 2 million people, and broadcast all over the world, wherein he said envelope sealing is the first order of buisness.
gabe
False analogy. Doesn't take into account the time lapse.
How about:
"In addition, there was an email sent to all employees and volunteers of the campaign, which appeared to come from the Senator's main office, although for the last couple of months the whole staff has been arguing over who really has the rights to that domain, and which emails are genuinely being sent from that address and which are being spoofed with spam from various internal factions within the campaign. Unfortunately, we've lost the password to access that account and can't control the IP adress anymore, so determining which emails actually came from certain people within the campaign is now a matter of faith and guesswork."
"Seriously. What is the conflict?"
I never said there was one, i said that IF there were a conflict with halachah, your upbringing, which you were discussing, would have taught to refrain from exhibiting your talents, or brain's potential. Your upbringing taught that halachah takes precedence. You fail to realize that that same theory holds true amongst the chareidim with regards to instances where brain-potential/g-d-given-talent conflicts with hashkafah.
You made this comment:
"Some things can't be changed - but others can. I think that things that can be changed to ensure equal treatment and equal opportunities should - (I will accept -provided in does not overstep limitations of halacha).
TikunOlam | 05.23.08 - 9:58 am | #"
It shows a distinct lack of allowance for deference to hashkafah.
"While the perpretrator - who of course, is a father of multiple children himself - will not be getting treatment - because who is the community could even provide it??"
Seriously, I thought there was no treatment for that illness.
"False analogy. Doesn't take into account the time lapse....."
Nope, I can follow the chain of this email all the way back to it's source. And as far as the guesswork, it's only guesswork for those to lazy to invest the time and effort necessary to learn how to PROPERLY decode the true e-mails. Also, it is specifically to prevent people with alternate agendas (such as those trying to join the campaign force while not really supporting the candidate, and in fact openly undermining the candidates positions) from obtaining access that the e-mails were sent encoded, with the encryption software turned over on a seperate disk. Those who aren't able to decode the e-mails are ignoring the disclaimer at the bottom wherein it states that they contents are only for the intended recipient....
Everyone is aware that the initial emails went out from the senator, everyone knows that they're encrypted, however only the chosen were given the encryption software.
there are lots of hashkafot in the world - yours is not the only one
In fact in my world - I am a great role model for those who fit into the hashkafa that is being taught.
Hashem did not give hashkafa when he gave torah - hashkafa evolved over time and in many different directions.
If it didn't even placing in yur world, like the Bais Ya'akov movement would not have come into existance.
"distinct lack of allowance for deference to hashkafah"
I'm perfectly happy to defer to others regarding their own hashkafah or that of their communities. What I am NOT happy about is the assumption by some blog commentators that the Eastern European charedi hashkafot are the only legitimate varieties of torah hashkafah, or even that they are the ideal for either the United States or Eretz Yisrael. The Bronx is not Transylvania.
I should add that the two charedi rabbis with whom I have learned one on one have never denigrated modern orthodox hashkafot. They just follow their own mesorah which is somewhat different.
" the Bais Ya'akov movement would not have come into existance."
There was formal Jewish education for women in America (specifically, in New York City) over a century before the Bais Yaakov movement started -- predating even the first Reform synagogue in Germany. That American education was in what we would now call a co-ed modern orthodox day school.
" there are lots of hashkafot in the world - yours is not the only one
In fact in my world - I am a great role model for those who fit into the hashkafa that is being taught.
Hashem did not give hashkafa when he gave torah - hashkafa evolved over time and in many different directions."
Why do you twist my words, implying that my comment has anything to do with society at large? You asked a question, why chareidi (actually you used Orthodoxy, My comment was focused specifically on the chareidi segment) leadership does not take steps to advance women's roles in ritual Judaism. To that I presented to you what their though process was, you insisted that if there was no definitive halachic reason, there should be no opposition, in response to that I wrote "that allows for no deference to hashkafa". The concept that if it's halachically ok, there cannot be any opposition, is exclusive of hashkafos which lend credence to kadesh atzmechah b'mutar lach, among other ideas.
That you'd take my words and twist them like you did is twice in one day, It's been a pleasure communicating with you, however once this starts happening, there's no reason to continue, it's why I avoid direct dialogue with DB, and it's why I shall try to do so from here on out with you as well. Tata
Gabe,
Your "Tata" is ridiculouous after the response to this comment of mine made regarding another segment of the Orthodox community:
ME: "I am so thankful for the Nishmats, Brovenders and Women's minyanim of this day and age - thankful knowing that even in the Orthodox world - there are those who don't think like you."
YOU: Yes, and can you tell me how many second and third generations of these remain true to their religion?
Your lack of respect for any hashkafah other than your own is evident in that statement. And you fail to consider how many go OTD - precisely because the other hashkafot are deligitamized even though they fell within the boundaries of halacha.
You tell me that I leave no room to consider Hashkafa and then tell me I twist you words when I show you that there is room for the expansion of women's roles in OJ that I am thankful to see.
And though I am not sure where else you see that I "twisted" your words - check the other thread where I show you how your words are the most insulting description of me I have ever seen. No twisting involved.
So quit communicating if you want - but you might want to consider that if you felt the need to stop communicating with both DB and myself - it may be due to your own shortcomings with regards to your ability to communicate if you believe your words are getting twisted.
Perhaps your words are simply being read - and you are not communicating what it is you wish to communicate and then can't understand why they are being misunderstood.
Or they are being perfectly understood and you have decided you can no longer stand to communicate with those who are going to call you on ideas that make no sense to them.
Maybe you are tired of explaining. I know after your insults to me I sure feel tired of explaining myself just to get the same insults thrown back for a second and tenth time.
Above was mine.
I hope someone here {whose response to any challenge to their position is NOT a cry of "you don't respect me", someone who can except that a criticism can stem from a obvious flaw and does not necessarily stem from inherent differences in beliefs, maybe someone who isn't walking around with an anti-chareidi CHIP.} Maybe someone like that can explain to me how pointing out the fact that "Nishmats, Brovenders and Women's minyanim of this day and age" have few if any second and third generation adherents, shows a lack of respect for their hashkafos. If I point out the fact that few Chareidi teen agers excell at sports, that doesn't show a lack of respect, that's pointing out a fact. If I point out that few Chareidi women have profitable careers, that's not disrespecting them, that's pointing out a fact. If I point out that few members of "Nishmats, Brovenders and Women's minyanim of this day and age" attend services more than a couple of times a week, and that weekday minyanim are sparsely attended (where they exist at all) THAT'S NOT A LACK OF RESPECT FOR THIR HAHSHKAFOS, THAT'S POINTING OUT A FACT, one which may or may not be telling of the commitment of the members, or of the power of the message they are conveying.
Anyone interested in an open unbiased debate of these points, who is willing to offer some insight, instead f crying foul at every imagined slight, I'm happy to be enlightened. Anyone who is not simply claiming to want to help people understand, but then sacrificing every opportunity to do so on their own personal altar of righteous indignation, please, anyone like that, comment, cause you have an audience who are eagerly waiting to hear what you have to present.
"So quit communicating if you want - but you might want to consider that if you felt the need to stop communicating with both DB and myself - it may be due to your own shortcomings with regards to your ability to communicate if you believe your words are getting twisted.
Perhaps your words are simply being read - and you are not communicating what it is you wish to communicate and then can't understand why they are being misunderstood."
Agreed. So it's either deliberate, or unintentional, either way this means of communication is not working out, hence no reason to contimue.
The countdown to righteous indignation will commence in....three.....two....one.....
Gabe,
Wow, I am at a loss. You want an unbiased debate. I am going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to believe that you don't realize how anti anything non-chareidi you sound. Your dismissal of atheists as people who are all about excuses, aren't even what they claim to be (your claim that I am not even an atheist - would I ever claim that you don't really believe in god and assume facts not in evidence about you?) and are simply giving in to toeyvot, your insult to the best a brightest of the women of the MO world(yes - MOs would find your baseless claim that graduates of Nishmat, Brovenders and members of women's minyanim have fewer committed members a couple generations later - especially since they haven't even been around long enough to make a study of it - they would find this insulting precisely because what they are all about IS their committment to their Torah lifestyles - do you really not see that?) are so dismissive and patronizing that if anyone has a "chip" - hey look who is calling the kettle black - again.
I am not sure how you can't read your words back to yourself and not see what they sound like to someone like me. I have criticisms of the chareidi lifestyle, you have criticisms of mine, the MOs and any other Jewish denomination that doesn't have your denomination's priorities and hashkafa. That makes sense - if not you would not be in your world I would not be in mine. Why is that such a problem for you all of a sudden?
Again, don't know why the change in tone, but if cummunicating with me is something you find unproductive or irritating, feel free to quit. I would be sorry to lose the communication. Despite its bumps in the road, I have learned a lot communicating with you and would have enjoyed learning more. I was willing to put up with comments I found utterly insulting trying my best (and failing sometimes) to not take them personally - but if you are not, so be it. It takes two to have a dialogue.
Tried to do my best to not have a tone of "righteous indignation" - may not have suceeded - but well, just know I tried.
"your insult to the best a brightest of the women of the MO world(yes - MOs would find your baseless claim that graduates of Nishmat, Brovenders and members of women's minyanim have fewer committed members"
Again, you confusing 'insults' with poigniant facts? What perscentage of those 'committed members' attend on a rainy tuesday morning? And if there aren't any scheduled weekday services, isn't that more telling than anything else? How can you say: "what they are all about IS their committment to their Torah lifestyles" , if they're only available for it on weekends? I don't accept casual religion as a legitimate 'hashkafa'. If that's dismissive so be it.
(it's like I'm some crackhead that can't resist the smack you keep spreading on the table in front of me, I think I need rehab.)
"do you really not see that?"
What I really see, is a viewpoint that withers under scrutiny, if when I point out some obvious flaw, I'm not given any logical debate or response, just "It's insulting". It's fact, if it's insulting, either prove me wrong (I'm open, nay, hopeful, to being disproven) or admit it's a valid point. Crying foul every time someone points out something is just not condusive to advancing dialogue.
Look, it's insulting to me when someone (was it BoTH?) points out how chareidi menus are gross (overcooked meats, greasy kugel,ech) when that happens were my response to be "you're insulting 'the best a brightest chefs of the Chareidi community'" there'd be no purpose for us to continue, because I'm offering no counter, simply crying about the insult. My response should be one proving the quality cuisine that actually does exist, or admiting that the menus in general are lacking. (It's the latter, although there are exceptions).
Ok, now I've gotta put down the crack pipe, the weather is too nice outside to spend it in front of the computer.
Gabe, Gabe, Gabe,
Before I start my session with a patient about to walk in the door - I need to say something. Maybe you don't know what Brovenders is (an OJ seminary in Israel for some of the intellectual elite young women of the MO OJ world that has thousands of committed graduates - many of whom are now leaders in the Jewish community from teachers, to professors of Jewish Studies, to principals and who play major roles in their community life while being both OJ and feminist). Or what Nishmat is (learning for women available who are making their lives about helping other women live lives of torah - Nishat graduates "Yoatzot Halacha" who are women trained on hilchot taharat hamishpacha - so that women more comfortable presenting to a woman her questions - would be more likely to ask the questions - all of this done under the auspices of rabbinical supervision of course - these are women becoming EXPERTS on halacha - tailored mostly toward women). And as far as the minyanim are concerned - women don't have to daven in a minyan - this is just a halchic way for these women to become more involved in the religion they are dedicating their life to. They are not being men. There are looking for avenues within a halachic frame work and MO hashkafa to express their devotion. Your assumption that leads to following generations going OTD is baseless and that is where the insult that you call fact is coming in.
Somehow when I responded, I missed your last two comments, guess they haven't loaded yet.
A couple of things you should know about me. One, I don't "debate" like a man who spent his life studying Gemara and guess why.. . I am neither a man, nor do I study Gemara. I never claimed to be looking for debate. I prefer dialogue and that is the only thing I am looking for. If I liked debating - I would have chosen a far different field than becoming a clinical psychologist who spends most of her time developing interpersonal relationship with patients.
So your rules and mine in communicating are different. One more difference to add to your list of differences between you and me. I get more personal, I take things more personally and some objective debate is not what I am about and not what I can do - or want to try to do. I am a human being and bring my humanness into the way I communicate with others. That is how I am. Reason I am not a lawyer and became a psychologist is because it suits me better. So don't tell me that I am not playing by the rules. They are your rules and not mine.
Second thing is that if you are going to say what you say about atheists and the MO community and then complain that I use the word "insulting" - we have another problem. Insulting is not a term that is used in impersonal debate but it is a term completely appropriate for a dialogue which is meant to foster mutual respect and understanding. Since that is the motivation behind my communications with you - it was entirely appropriate for me to respond as I did.
And considering that I don't think we have ever actually debated, I think you decided at some point to try and do things my way. Maybe you just got lost in the "crack like" feeling you get from developing an actual interpersonal exchange between two three demensional people on a blog where respect, kindness and understanding may actually matter.
I know what is more typical in the blogosphere is some impersonal debate that you could always get with some other guy with the testosterone driven rage and wit and heart of stone. So you got confused there for a second. Maybe now you remember that it is simply easier to retreat back to what you know - debating impersonal ideas and philosophies and not developing a dialogue that has a personal nature to it.
I don't do impersonal debating. Hashem did not create me with that ability. Sorry. Talk to me and you might decide you like me as an actual person and wouldn't that be scary? I mean me, with the chip the size of Montana, the apikoras philosphies, wearing my pants in public with my hair uncovered, with my thoughts that all children of the world are of equal value. . .
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