The liberal MOs did not foment this, the Chardali did. Shapira is Chardali and it is HE who is calling for the schism, thus it is HE who is fomenting the schism.
foment: to promote the growth of, syonomymous with "to rouse" or "to incite."
Shapira is promoting, rousing and inciting the schism, not the liberal MOs.
From the article: “This justifies tearing the clothes [in mourning – ed.] and tearing apart the public,” he told an audience of religious youth from the Ezra movement.
Well, that is just lovely. To think people even have to ask why someone would leave the Orthodox community. . .
this makes no sense. you were banned form commenting but are still allowed to post????
Oh, and BTW Bray, with the dispicable words this man uttered, I believe it would be more correct to say "beware of your own right flank." I mean it is not like this little subgroup is Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or Renewal. I mean for them k'ria maybe, but this! It's a shanda!
I would be thrilled if a liberal but halachically observant (read: basic shabbat & kashrut) movement arose. I see no need to be joined at the hip with mainstream Orthodoxy of any stripe, at least as they exist today.
Besides Kolech – a feminist women's group funded by the New Israel Fund – he mentioned a ruling which allowed co-ed activity in the Bnei Akiva youth movement, and “all of the permissions to marry without having children, not marry and have children,” as well as “[the subject of] homosexuality that is talked about so much.” The talk about homosexuality in itself constitutes hachtaat harabim (directing the public towards sin), he explained.
Is this guy for real????
Oh no! Mixed events at B'nei Akiva goes hand in hand with homosexuality! And it might lead to mixed dancing!!
Sigh.
It seems the qualification for becoming a great religious leader is calling for the heads of every other religious leader or movement.
I'm glad I'm not involved in this nonsense and am over on the left and don't care about this shtus. I live my own life and try to adhere to halacha as best I can and in a way that doesn't overburden me and my wife. Doing any more and having to constantly adjust to what everyone else is doing and what the "great rav" says every other day would drive me crazy.
This comment on the article over on VIN is illustrative of the total lack of a common basis for understanding:
Such chutzpah in your words. Since when is it OK to speak about our Rabbeim like this? Whether not you agree with him lends you no right to speak in such a chutzpahdige way.
Those who don't agree with R. Shapira don't consider him a great Rabbi deserving of respect. They just see an ultra-religious nut raving. Why does that deserve respect?
I would be thrilled if a liberal but halachically observant (read: basic shabbat & kashrut) movement arose. I see no need to be joined at the hip with mainstream Orthodoxy of any stripe, at least as they exist today.
Um, I hate to tell you, but one already exists. It's called Conservative/Masorti. Yeah, they get a little PC at times, but at least it's something. You just have to put up with the fact that most of the membership doesn't fully go with the program. But you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Can't you just feel the achdut?
You just have to put up with the fact that most of the membership doesn't fully go with the program.
That's my basic issue. I have no problem with that from an objective viewpoint, but I want to live in a community where most people walk to shul and where I can eat in someone's house without worrying. That doesn't mean that I don't want to have plenty of bridges to the Conservative community, but it's my personal preference to live in a majority halachically observant one.
What Words said. Sheesh. Fomenting schism indeed.
And I can't afford to live in Manhattan and daven at Hadar
On the UWS, I ate at plenty of Conservative people's homes with full confidence in their kashrut, but those friends did "go with the program" as you put it. That doesn't exist outside of a few popular urban centers.
Oh no! Mixed events at B'nei Akiva goes hand in hand with homosexuality! And it might lead to mixed dancing!!
dys | Homepage | 07.06.09 - 3:47 pm | #
You know, I went to a B'nai Akiva summer camp and there was a girl and guy who got thrown out after being caught fooling around. Turns out, a number of yrs later, this same girl "came out" and announced she was gay.
So there may be something to this. . .
TO - lol
DYS,
Movements are always going to have leaderships that have ideologies that are to the right of their congregations. As CA said, what you are describing is Conservative/Masorati. And just like all subsects of (halachic) Judaism, the congregants tend to be less obsevant than the rabbi of their shul. That is just the reality of the way it works.
TO,
Ah, the things I missed not going to sleepaway camp.
TO,
That be be true, but even in LWMO communities there's the basic expectation of shmirat shabbat & Kashrut according to basic Orthodox standards.
I'm not criticizing anyone who doesn't do these things. Everyone has to find their own religious path. I don't even assert that keeping halacha according to basic Orthodox standards makes me more religious than someone who does not. I'm just saying that my own comfort level is a majority halachically observant community. I despise many of the social conventions and ideas of the mainstream Orthodox community though.
DYS, then haven't you found your niche? Seems like the LWMO is the way to go for you then. Aren't there plenty of those around?
JS - you certainly did miss out! The stories I could tell from 10+ yrs of sleepaway camp!
dys,
We're on the same wavelength.
Having grown up Orthodox (even LW MO and even though my family wasn't 100% frum) I'm just used to an Orthodox shul and I value many Orthodox ideas and ideals. However, so many things bother me with the movement as a whole - this being just one of them.
For me, I'd rather join a LW MO community. At least there people are more honest about how they keep or don't keep halacha and don't judge others as much. Generally, people are more open-minded as well. I'm much more able to "do my own thing" and no one expects me to conform to the community's standards outside of the basics.
I have found my niche somewhat in LWMO. I wasn't complaining in a big way, I was reacting to the article and the fact that Bray is gleefully showing us that someone in the RZ camp believes we are beyond the pale. I was explaining that I don't care. I don't need to be considered within the pale by guys like this and have no need to be connected with mainstream Orthodox attitudes.
Subsequently I was responding to CA's touting Conservative as a place that would fit what I expressed, and I was explaining to him why it's not.
I would add that the community I'm in right now is not LW MO and is definitely more to the right. While no one has ever said anything to me about my or my wife's level of observance, I am constantly bothered by the rabbi who is completely intolerant of anyone who is not exactly like him (both on the left and the right) even as he preaches tolerance from the pulpit. I'm also sick of the speeches denigrating secular studies, worshiping gedolim, pushing social and political agendas, and pretending to be really deep while in truth being intellectually shallow and vapid. And while we've made lots of great friends they tend to be more observant, but quietly not agreeing with the more RW agenda. Other people are just completely intolerant, some are just racist, some are RW political fanatics, and some can't understand the concept of getting a good secular education and being able to pay your own bills.
TO,
You are wrong about one thing, however. There aren't plenty of LWMO shuls/communities around. They mostly exist only in expensive areas around Boston/NY/DC.
While my Midwest shul, in the city where I most recently lived for a few years, was slightly to the left-of-center, and was incredibly tolerant and welcoming to anyone, it still was fairly mainstream in practice and basic attitudes.
JS,
I think we need to found a new community.
Let's get us a Chovevei grad and string up an eruv in a suburban development in western Jersey
“For years I have been confidently predicting that various egalitarian and hip, politically correct movements championed by Orthodoxies extreme left wing would, some day soon, foment the next great schism in world Jewry”
Your link gives absolutely no evidence of a "great schism."
Bray:
I miss you in the comment thread...
First, this Rabbi is in truth the "cause" of the schism. (Either that or your "nevuah"). He is creating the schism merely by proclaiming it such. No one else seems to think there is a schism....
Second, this whole idea of "movements" in Judaism is so foul and putrid. As Mark says, we need unity. So what if some guys are more modern than another group of guys? That means there is a schism and we need to further define each and every niche within Judaism.
As far as I am concerned, Shomer Shabbos is the only line of demarcation within Judaism that is real. The rest is social / cultural. And even that line is not worth making a fuss over unless there is a specific practical application (like neemanus).
Bray, your prophecy may be correct but that doesn't make it the right at all.
This Rabbi is only making things worse.
(Chaim: Feel free to reply via email)
As far as I am concerned, Shomer Shabbos is the only line of demarcation within Judaism that is real. The rest is social / cultural.
I think there are a few more lines, and I also believe that Shomer Shabbat is not the top item in the list. The ten commandments are given top billing for a reason 
Mark:
On this I think you are wrong. The (10) 13 Commandments include Shabbos and it has been the line of demarcation for a long time (til now).
It does not mean that keeping Shabbos and nothing else gets you into the club, it means that the commitment in keeping Shabbos indicates a level of commitment to observance that includes most basic mitzvos.
It seems to me like Rabbi Shapira feels that the tenuous grasp of control over their community is slipping out of the Rabbi's hands. He calling for "raising kriya" over a progressive group that he feels threatened by. Has he forgotten "veahavta lirayacha kamocha" or does that not apply to someone who doesn't subscribe to his particular version of orthodxy?
On this I think you are wrong. The (10) 13 Commandments include Shabbos and it has been the line of demarcation for a long time (till now).
Nope, I was focusing on the word "real" that you used. If you maintain the usage of "real", then you are wrong. The main chidush that Judaism brought to the world is the concept of one God. Therefore, the primary lines of demarcation must include that at the very minimum. So, a Jew that believes in multiple gods might not be considered a Jew. That pretty much includes the first 3 of the 10. Then there is Shabbat, of course.
It does not mean that keeping Shabbos and nothing else gets you into the club, it means that the commitment in keeping Shabbos indicates a level of commitment to observance that includes most basic mitzvos.
I agree that a commitment to keeping shabbat is probably the best start to being a good Jew. That's where Chabad has it exactly right - just try to get someone to accept even the smallest part of shabbat to mark it as a special day, maybe just lighting candles, maybe just a festive family meal, etc.
I think we agree, however, your use of "only" and "real" threw me.
I wonder what R' Shapira thinks of "centrist" Modern Orthodoxy... after all, Religious Zionism and Modern Orthodxy are not the same thing, and there's very little actual MO in Israel. So while the LWMO innovations are easy targets, i wonder whether he seems much of a difference between that and the YU style MO.
Considering his objection to co-ed activities...
Considering his objection to co-ed activities...
I wouldn't be surprised if his grandparents or great-grandparents engaged in co-ed activities. So maybe in addition to being out of touch, he's also being chutzpadick to the memories of his ancestors.
Let's get us a Chovevei grad and string up an eruv in a suburban development in western Jersey
No, come to Baltimore. We could use some LWMO's here. Or any MOs. And it's a far more sustainable lifestyle than living in some far off outer suburb.
Oh no! Mixed events at B'nei Akiva goes hand in hand with homosexuality! And it might lead to mixed dancing!!
Won't someone please think of the children?!
Second, this whole idea of "movements" in Judaism is so foul and putrid. As Mark says, we need unity. So what if some guys are more modern than another group of guys? That means there is a schism and we need to further define each and every niche within Judaism.
As far as I am concerned, Shomer Shabbos is the only line of demarcation within Judaism that is real. The rest is social / cultural. And even that line is not worth making a fuss over unless there is a specific practical application (like neemanus).
So, if unity is to be achieved and the different movements are to become one, will you recognize people who were converted as Reconstructionist, Reform, and Conservative Jews? There are a lot of converts in those movements (as there are a lot of Orthodox converts). If unity will mean leaving those people out because they didn't have an Orthodox bet din oversee their conversion, then the other movements might not be too keen on dumping them by the wayside.
I don't think that the current bunch of rabbis nullifying even Orthodox conversions are going to accept the non-Orthodox converts in order to facilitate unity. What would you do?
just testing
NonO:
The whole conversion thing is a mess.
It seems rather simple to me yet politics get in the way of it all.
If you want to be recognized by a group of people, doesn't it stand to reason that you should conform to that particular group's standard?
If you don't care about that group's standard then why would you care if they recognize your standard?
That is how it works for me.
E. Fink: Because it doesn't stop with the individual. It follows the germline.
If a female Reform convert were to have a son, that boy would not be Jewish according to OJs if the subject was seriously called into question.
Sure, maybe the mother doesn't care about whether or not OJs consider her Jewish, but the boy probably can't even fathom the idea that he's not Jewish and telling him that he isn't Jew enough would probably cause him to leave the tribe altogether.
To a completely heartless rabbi, nothing is lost because the kid wasn't Jewish anyway, but such a line of thinking borders on sociopathy.
Continuing this line of thinking, let's say the kid, thinking he was Jewish from birth, wants to make the great mitzvah of aliyah. Suddenly, he arrives in Tel Aviv and some rabbi bureaucrat who he's never met and who doesn't know him from Shlomo decides he isn't Jewish.
The loss of that status does imply loss of some government benefits for olim... All because his mother did a conversion that wasn't good enough for this bureaucrat rabbi, even if the kid is more observant and knows Torah better than most other olim.
Could he go through an Orthodox conversion? Sure. Might a decent rabbi even expedite the process because he was clearly raised Jewish and already quite knowledgeable? Yes.
But telling a person who is raised Jewish that they have to convert is a very grave insult to who they are and the life they've lived. And anyone with a brain wouldn't stand for it.
If you want to be recognized by a group of people, doesn't it stand to reason that you should conform to that particular group's standard?
If you don't care about that group's standard then why would you care if they recognize your standard?
That works fine while Judaism is divided into different streams. If someone thinks that the Charedi requirements for conversion are go too far, they can convert MO. If someone thinks that all the Othodox varieties go too far with their conversion requirements, they can convert Conservative. And so on. If they don't care about fitting in with the other stream, they don't worry about it.
However, you talked about Judaism doing away with the various streams. Should that happen, the MO convert faces non-acceptance by those who were of the Charedi stream and the Conservative faces non-acceptance by those who were of the Orthodox stream.
It will no longer be a matter of not conforming to the standards of one particular group or the other, since there will be only one group.
In that case, what happens to the non-Orthodox (or non-Charedi Orthodox) converts? Do they all get tossed out? They cannot go to another Jewish group, since there will only be one.
No you are not a prophet, just another Zekharia Ben Avkelus. Here in Israel we have a lot of them and quite a few Abu Sikrot Bnei Batiah as well.
Kari, NonO:
Again, I do not want to get involved in the politics of it all.
But technically, if one has been living as an orthodox Jew under false pretenses of a parent's 'unaccepted' conversion I have heard from an orthodox dayan (judge) in America all that is needed is a dunk in the mikvah. This is not objectionable as it is no big deal, just a necessary technicality. But there are no hoops to jump through.
However, I don't speak for the "Rabbinate" in Israel who has far more to deal with politically and thus their views may be skewed by other issues.
charedi gerus is not even halachic... (disgusted)
So, if unity is to be achieved and the different movements are to become one, will you recognize people who were converted as Reconstructionist, Reform, and Conservative Jews?
If I recall correctly, all that is actually required is 1) mikvah 2) circumcision if male and 3) commitment to adhere to the mitzvot.
I'm willing to accept anyone who does those 3. And for #3, I think we should take the person at their word and not go into crazy specifics or require that they train for a rabbinics degree before being able to answer #3. At most, I would consider a commitment to asking a rabbi should an issue arise.
I have heard from an orthodox dayan (judge) in America all that is needed is a dunk in the mikvah.
Just curious: why? What exactly is the concern? The mikvah wasn't kosher? The person didn't go completely under?
I will never understand this fear of not going completely under. Is it that difficult? Not to get into niddah issues, but is there really a need for a mikvah lady to watch and make sure the woman goes under completely? This is so silly.
To a completely heartless rabbi, nothing is lost because the kid wasn't Jewish anyway, but such a line of thinking borders on sociopathy.
I subscribe to this line of thinking. Please explain what makes it sociopathic?
It's tragic, no question but A) the Ortho Rabbiante cannot adress all of the worlds tragedies and B) Allowing the delusional shaigetz to marry a Jewish girl is far more tragic.
Delusional shaigetz? Nice. Thanks for confirming what I said above about denominations of Orthodoxy.
Pretty amazing how we look for all sorts of kullahs (leniencies) in other matters, but not here. There are opinions that swimming in a swimming pool wearing an absorbent bathing suit is acceptable for mikvah, but I have never once heard anyone suggest this in the context of conversion. The fact that a person has been living as a Jew isn't enough of a commitment to adherence of the mitzvot?
This issue had gone far past absurdity.
It's amazing that we'll tell people who intermarry or who do things that may lead their children to intermarry that they're "Doing Hitler's work for him" but at the same time we won't let people who want to be Jews, and would have been gassed like every "heilege yid," to be officially called Jewish.
inaacurate. Per the Nuremberg Laws an Aryan convert would not have been gassed, unless it was a summarry execution situation where they chekced your circumcision instead of your papers.
cp. Europa Europa
but at the same time we won't let people who want to be Jews,
If they want to be Jews so badly no problem, let them repeat their conversions and get it right the second time.
The liberal MOs did not foment this, the Chardali did. Shapira is Chardali and it is HE who is calling for the schism, thus it is HE who is fomenting the schism.
Right. That's like saying that when the battered woman finally says "enough. I'm mad as hell and I'm not just going to take it any longer", grabs the kids and leaves her abusive husband that SHE is the one responsible for the breakup of the marriage.
inaacurate. Per the Nuremberg Laws an Aryan convert would not have been gassed, unless it was a summarry execution situation where they chekced your circumcision instead of your papers.
If you paid attention, you'd know the conversation was about someone who's father is Jewish and who's mother is a Reform convert.
Also, the Nuremberg laws had nothing to do with who gets gassed. It was about protecting the Aryan bloodline.
A law promulgated after the Nuremberg laws defined what a Jew/Aryan/Mongrel was. An Aryan was anyone with 4 Aryan or kindred grandparents. A Jew was anyone with 3-4 Jewish grandparents. A "mongrel" (1st degree) was anyone with 1 Jewish grandparents. A person with 2 Jewish grandparents could be considered either a Jew or a mongrel (1st degree) (the person was a Jews if, among other tests, he/she was married to a Jew, practiced as a Jew or one of his/her parents was a Jew - with certain date requirements).
When the Final Solution came about, all "Full Jews" were targeted. But at the first and second conferences, they couldn't agree on what to do with the Mongrels (Mischlinge). Many wanted them killed, especially if they had Jewish traits, but ultimately they only decided on forced sterilization. At the third conference (1942) they ultimately decided to only sterilize 1st degree Mongrels and merely keep 2nd degree Mongrels under restrictions.
A "mongrel" (1st degree) was anyone with 1 Jewish grandparents.
Make that 2nd degree.
Again, I do not want to get involved in the politics of it all.
But technically, if one has been living as an orthodox Jew under false pretenses of a parent's 'unaccepted' conversion
Umm, do you see the contradiction here? You want unity, but you assume that the unity is Orthodoxy. That's fine, if you're limiting your view of unity to bringing LWMO and Religious Zionist and Charedim all under one umbrella. (ha. like that would ever happen.)
But there are different movements for a reason. It might surprise you, but most non-Orthodox Jews don't actually think Orthodoxy has the right minhagim and interpretation of halacha. They actually think THEY'RE the ones who have it right - otherwise they'd switch to another movement.
I, for one, fully understood the implications of converting within a Reconstructionist community, and who would fail to recognize my status. Bad Cohen and I plan to be fully open with our son about what that means for him, and his status. There shouldn't be any "surprises" at the Israeli border for him.
Right now, the only ones likely to face that sort of shock are those who coverted with an Orthodox bet din, which is now deemed not good enough. Something for those charedi rabbis to think about.
Bad Cohen and I plan to be fully open with our son about what that means for him, and his status.
when is it age-appropriate to do so? Same time as when we tell adopted kids about THEIR status?
Ummm. You jumped in here and missed my point.
I started by saying I'm not talking politics, so u don't care about the israeli border. I'm talking about halachics...
Second, again, one who wishes to be recognized by a group can only hope they will be recognized of they adhere to that group's standard.
I never assumed unity was orthodoxy. I never would say that. I said keeping Shabbos was the traditional line of demarcation and I stick by it.
That's all.
when is it age-appropriate to do so? Same time as when we tell adopted kids about THEIR status?
Bah-dahd Yea-shave
Depends on the kid, really. He already notices that not everybody does things the same way, and we have talked about that. As we visit different relatives with different levels of observance, I'm sure he'll have more questions.
I never assumed unity was orthodoxy.
And yet, your phrasing suggests otherwise. Also, consider: if you say "keeping Shabbat" is the demarcation, what exactly does that mean? is your definition of Shomer Shabbat orthodox, ultra-orthodox, etc? I know lots of people who believe they are keeping Shabbat, but Orthodox Jews would say they aren't. They're working with two different interpretations of halacha - and the idea that halacha has only ONE correct interpretation (the orthodox one) IS political.
Not political. Religious.
I realize what I said. And I know you may see it as a contradiction.
It's not. And I'm happy to continue this offline.
If they want to be Jews so badly no problem, let them repeat their conversions and get it right the second time.
Sure, make the ger convert again. Then, if someone else questions the second conversion, if he wants to be a Jew so badly, he should have no problem repeating it a third time.
Converts shouldn't be treated like a bunch of trained poodles who you can get to jump through a hoop by saying the magic command.
I'm waiting for some of these converts to turn the tables and ask to see certified lineages of the rabbis asking them to redo their conversions - back to Avraham and Sarah. "You don't think that I'm Jewish? Well, maybe I don't fully believe that you are, either. Show me your geneology."
Right. That's like saying that when the battered woman finally says "enough. I'm mad as hell and I'm not just going to take it any longer", grabs the kids and leaves her abusive husband that SHE is the one responsible for the breakup of the marriage.
Thanks for posting the newest entry into the Top Five Stupidest Comments list!!!
calling something stupid in no way refutes it.
Badad (Bray),
So you're saying the metaphor is apt because the Liberal MO's have been relentless beating up the Chardalis?
APC - Sure, make the ger convert again. Then, if someone else questions the second conversion, if he wants to be a Jew so badly, he should have no problem repeating it a third time.
In general, it only has to be done once ... properly. Those trying to disqualify proper conversions are committing a grave aveira in my opinion!
@APC:
At most, I would consider a commitment to asking a rabbi should an issue arise.
this is infact immoratilized halacha, that we teach them 3 of the major mitzvos (shabbos, kasherus and nidda) and a few of the minor mitzvos, and then rely on their commitment to follow a rabbi.
and in point of fact, once they are disuaded and commit to becoming a yid, they have the halacha of do not afflict a ger, so extending their learning period beyond the customary year is a chumra sheyeish bo kulah, and i would not accept the kasherus of any bais din arrogant enough to do so. (bein lehakel olehachmir)
calling something stupid in no way refutes it.
Of course not. But it's not necessary when the original comment refutes itself.
most charedim spend more time beating everyone else up than being beaten up. . .
So you're saying the metaphor is apt because the Liberal MO's have been relentless beating up the Chardalis?
Not physically-ideologically.
only in response to unjustified hatred on the charedim's part.
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