Where does a blog that happily rips off news stories, publishes misleading photos, and provides a comfortable home for some of the most racist and retarded commenters in the blogosphere find the nerve to drape itself in daas torah?]
Awesome. So spot on.
MA SHEYASEH HAZMAN LO YAZEH HASECHEL…. I really HOPE thease will be a turn over for jewish music …
it was just getting far off.
( I was latly by a “heimeshe” chasune & I saw a non-jewish waiter dance along (& ahead) with the beat that the band was playing….it was just amazing ,seeing how low the jewish music is up to. So we all thank anyone..from the rabonim..askonim..singers for try ing to help us get back onto track.
Comment by holyland — February 25, 2008 @ 12:45 am
Apparently music qualifies as Goyish if the non jewish waiter serving your food can dance to it:
"Apparently music qualifies as Goyish if the non jewish waiter serving your food can dance to it
Music qualifies as Goyish if anyone can dance (as opposed to shuffle, or march) to it. Dancing leads to...... well, we don't want to go there.
Dancing leads to......
Mixed seating?
Buggy vegetables?
Exposed calfs?
Navy blue hats?
clean shaven faces?
Green shirts?
Another victory for the Rabbonim. Da'as Torah triumphant!
(I wonder if behind the scenes someon ethreatened to break Lipa's legs?)
I think dancing leads to people being happy, which is clearly assur...
Dancing leads to...... well, we don't want to go there.
(Mixed) dancing is vertical preparation for horizontal activity!
BTW
there is one new "Toeva" picture back in the wig store window. Although this one is a back shot with only the models nose exposed.
IVDU ES HASHEM B'YIRAH (of de rabunim)
"(I wonder if behind the scenes someon ethreatened to break Lipa's legs?)"
You think ... ?
I wonder if Lipa's change of heart gets him back into our "camp". After all in the pashkivil he is referred to as a מזמרים שמקצה המחנה.
I wonder why the Rabbonim did not explicate his name in the pashkivil? It couldn't have been for any loshon hora calculations as everyone knew precisely who they were talking about.
Maybe מזמרים שמקצה המחנה will now join cancer and homsexuality as words that dare not be mentioned in polite frum discourse.
Beat you with the Pravda line by about 6 hours ....
WWDTS: What Would Daas Torah Do?
There's an extremely frightening article copied below Insipid Yeshiva Propaganda Daily that reads like the script of a hostage video. Or like an article in Pravda.
The only snippet of mirth I felt when reading this pitiful white flag was learning that Lipa, in listing songs knowingly composed by non-Jews, that he will no longer perform, mentioned "Yidden" by name.
But reading this sentence:
"This decision was reached after he consulted with Daas Torah, and talking to leading Gedoley Yisroel,"
led me to conclude that ...
... we have all sinned and deserve judgment, but God, the Father, sent His only Son Daas Torah to satisfy that judgment for those who believe in Him. Daas Torah, the creator and eternal Son of God, who lived a sinless life, loves us so much that He died for our sins, taking the punishment that we deserve, was buried, and rose from the dead according to the Gedoley Yisroel. If you truly believe and trust this in your heart, receiving Daas Torah alone as your Savior, declaring, "Daas Torah is Lord," you will be saved from judgment and spend eternity with God in heaven.
Either that or someone threatened to destroy Lipa's life if he didn't cave.
I'm not sure which is worse.
EXCLUSIVE: Lipa Schmeltzer Backs Out Of Big Event Concert (from YWN)
There has been much talk regarding the Kol Koreh issued by Gedoley Yisroel banning the "Big Event Concert". Rumors were being spread as to the status of the massive show - which was scheduled for March 9 in Madison Square Garden.
Many people were questioning us why we did not post anything. YWN had consulted with leading Gedolim, and we were instructed not to post anything regarding this issue until now.
Yeshiva World has just spoken to Lipa Schmeltzer (Motzei Shabbos 5:45AM EST) and he has informed us that he will not be singing at the "Big Event Concert". This decision was reached after he consulted with Daas Torah, and talking to leading Gedoley Yisroel.
Lipa Schmeltzer must be publicly commended for listening to the words and wisdom of true Gedoley Yisroel.
Lipa tells YWN that many people have had issues with the type of material that he has been singing during his career. He always chose to ignore the requests of some of his fans to change his style of singing. Although he did have certain standards that he always kept (never singing for mixed crowds) [EDITOR'S NOTE: THIS IS A HUGE LOAD OF SHIT!!!!], he many time decided to follow the customers requests - and sing questionable tunes.
Lipa now has decided to make a big change. He has decided to turn over a leaf, and will be changing his entire style of music. He has decided that he does not think that the current style of Jewish music is apropos for Frum people to be listening to.
The past week has been very tough for Lipa and his family. Tough decisions have been made. Major decisions. Decisions about money. Decisions about his future. But Lipa has made the correct decision.
Lipa has met with many Gedoley Yisroel in the past two days, and spent countless hours talking to them. He has decided to forfeit a large sum of money by not singing this concert - and instead chose Daas Torah.
We are sure that Hashem will pay him back double for making the correct decision, and being Mikadesh Shem Shomayim!
Lipa also tells us that he is very concerned that there will be a backlash at the Rabbonim. He is publicly asking everyone to please refrain from making any accusations against any Rabbonim. "There is no reason for anyone to mix into this business, and everyone should rest assured that this was all done Bishalom", Lipa said. "I don't want anyone to talk Lashon Hara and Motzei Shem Ra against anyone -
especially the Gedolim whom I have tremendous respect for".
"I have recently started learning Bichavrusa with a leading Rosh Yeshiva [EDITOR'S NOTE: BY "LEARNING" [LIPA] MEANS "GETTING SCARED", BY "BICHAVRUSAH" HE MEANS "DEATH THREATS", AND BY "A LEADING ROSH YESHIVA", HE MEANS "THE COMMISSION FOR THE PROMOTION OF VIRTUE AND THE PREVENTION OF VICE."] , and I promised him that I will never sing any songs which were composed by non-Jews. Being true to my word, I have sang at more then a dozen Chasuna's since I made that decision - and I have not sang "Yidden", "Abi-Mileibt", or "Numa" (Rabbi Nachman M'uman) or any other song that is questionable as to its origin", Lipa told YWN.
"People should know that this Kol Koreh and ban against The Big Event was not directed at me personally, but at all concerts in general. [AND THAT I REJECT THE UNPROVOKED ACTS OF AGGRESSION PERPETRATED BY THE SATANIC MILITARY OF THE CRIMINAL AMERICAN GOVERNMENT]. The Rabbonim felt the need to put their foot down and attempt to stop all future concerts in NY."
For any further information regarding the status of the Big Event Concert, please call the concert hotline at 718-873-0888.
Beat you with the Pravda line by about 6 hours ....
Link? I'll put it up.
ISSURWATCH:
Where in the Torah is the mitzvat lo taaseh against singing "questionable" music? Where in the Torah is the mesorah that "questionable" directly alludes to "composed by the goyim?"
The only thing keeping me Jewish is shutting my ears to these crackpots and imposters.
any word about how much this fuss has cost "simchat tzion," the charity that was supposed to benefit from this?
it can cost up to $500k to reserve MSG for an event, I was once told...
wait till the NYTIMES and the media get a hold of this!
>I really wonder if Lipa and his like-minded rocket scientists have stopped to ask themselves: What is Jewish music? See, my five dollars says that every single liturgical song they've ever heard in their entire lives was based on something that a non-Jewish singer or composer did first. And this is doubly or triply true for the Hasidim.
I think you're very misguided for condemning him for chickening out. The mafia didn't squeeze you, did it?
I think you're very misguided for condemning him for chickening out. The mafia didn't squeeze you, did it?
I'm not ready to accept that he was threatened with pysical harm either. If he was, well that changes things doesn't it?
Physical harm has nothing to do with it.
I don't think Lipa chickened out. He's a VERY smart guy who happens to make buckets of cash as a bodchen. His singing career is just gravy.
I bet you the Soneh Yisroel threatened to destroy his bodchen gig if he didn't cave. It's no empty threat, either. All they have to do is say the word ... much like the word they never seem to say when it comes to addressing the REAL problems in Klal Yisroel.
Lipa didn't need to be threatened with bodily harm. He had to make a simple business decision which the simpering scum at Yeshiva Buttfuck Daily cynically present as Yiras Shomayim.
What is Jewish music? See, my five dollars says that every single liturgical song they've ever heard in their entire lives was based on something that a non-Jewish singer or composer did first.
You make a cogent point here. I'd like to offer a chiluk although I realize it may not be mechalek.
There's a difference between being "inspired" by certain musical styles and wholsale note for note ripoff of "goyishe" tunes. perhaps when some alteration of the note progression is evident the song is considered nikneh b'shinui. Now Lipa is among the most shameless rip-off (recording) artists going. His Uman is note for note
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6...h?
v=60og9gwKh1o
His abi m'lebt is note for note "the Lion sleeps tonight "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_...h?
v=_BuRwH59oAo
and Yidden is actually MBD's ripoff from a Gay German techno pop group.
cp this http://video.google.com/
videopla...402044259206056
and this:
http://video.google.com/
videopla...896116244603826
less well known is Lipas note for note ripoff of Brahms lullaby. I'm sure (as is the case with NE Patriots videotaping of opponents)that there are more examples that my general musical ignorance prevents me from knowing.
One chiluk I really don't get is why Lipa is more guilty than Piamentas (ripping off Men @ work's "have you been to the land down under?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D...h?
v=DNT7uZf7lew for their Asher barah hora), Uncle Moishy (ripping off "Oh Susanna" work's for his "I am Yosef...is my father still alive") or the Yiddish childrens tape "Ich bin shoin grois" http://www.eichlers.com/Product/...1-
Cassette.html
riiping off "London Bridge is falling Down" for their "Der bais Hamiqdash is shoin nisht du".
I guess Lipa's sins must be of a different order/magnitude!
Word is that Lipa is now only going to sing Carlebach, Chaim Dovid and Shlomo Katz tunes. The problem is he's still not going to pay royalties.
Lots of choice comments from the mindless drones.
I wish the rabonnim would be so strong in condemming how our wives and daughters dress!!!!
The "our" must mean that he has a big problem at home, no?
rav moshe banned concerts 30 years ago. Go learn an igros moshe or two. actually, just go bake cookies.
Typical mean-spirited, insulting response to a posed question.
On the topic of banning things, it gets me crazy why Rabbonim do not ASSUR the falls with hair sticking out in front of the shaitel. I am not an expert in halacha by any means, but leaving real hair on top in front of the shaitel, seems ASSUR to me.
Let's see; you're not an expert, it seems assur, and drives you crazy, but the Rabbonim should assur it anyway?
A bunch of moronic clones.
The problem is he's still not going to pay royalties.
איסור השגת גבול אינו ידוע
"Now Lipa is among the most shameless rip-off (recording) artists going. "
The difference is that Lipa does it with a wink ... he didn't rip of the Uman song because he thought he could get away with it. He did it, because it's a hoot to those who know the song is famous because of the fat kid lip synching into a webcam.
Abi m'lebt was not intended to become a Lipa classic -- it was part of a goofy music video first screened at the HASC concert. The work was so fantastic that the song became a cult hit.
For the audience it was created for, the tune was familiar for what it was ... not as an original composition by Lipa.
In Yiddin, do you really believe Lipa is trying to pass the song off as his own, hoping no one will remember MBS is the original larcenist? Give me a break. That;s just stupid.
Do you think anyone on this planet, save everyone hiding under the rock of Kiryas Joel and Square Town, wouldn't realize that Lipa didn't write Braham's Lullaby?
Now Uncle Moishy, on the other hand --- his whole act is lifting other people's hits, repackaging them with dopey lyrics, and selling them as his own.
MBD spent 20 years hoping no one would know that he is a serial rip-off artist. Now that they know, he suddenly transforms into the McGruff the Crime Dog of illegal downloads.
Lipa isn't a fraud.
< . . . has met with many Gedoley Yisroel in the past two days, and spent countless hours talking to them. He has decided to forfeit a large sum of money by not singing this concert - and instead chose Daas Torah.
"But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."
Lots of choice comments from the mindless drones...A bunch of moronic clones.
Well which is it Zach, "Mindless drones" or "moronic clones"? 
Do you think anyone on this planet, save everyone hiding under the rock of Kiryas Joel and Square Town, wouldn't realize that Lipa didn't write Braham's Lullaby?
No I don't. OTOH isn't that demographic segment the target audience of the Rabbonims ban?
"No I don't. OTOH isn't that demographic segment the target audience of the Rabbonims ban?"
No. That crew already know that life is not and should not be any fun It's the slightly less demented chevrah that the Soneh Yisroel are hoping to thoroughly warp.
"He loved Big Brother."
2 + 2 = Daas Torah
You err.
The pashkivil is adressing those frimly centered in the "machaneh" to resist the siren call of מזמרים שמקצה המחנה
should not be any fun
Huh...??? You consider Lipa, MBD, Avrum Freid et al (What DB terms "shiny-shoe music" Please explain the term Beary, BTW did you coin it?) FUN???
Man... have you got low expectations.
>The pashkivil is adressing those frimly centered in the "machaneh" to resist the siren call of
Read the names. R. Shmuel Kamenecki is speaking to New Square and Kiryas Joel?
As for the inclusion of Lipa Margulies, although I am not a conspiracy theorist and do not believe that it was intended to make any sort of statement, it does have the net effect of showing that he is, indeed, in the good graces of the coterie of great men of Israel (America); like an earlier half-Jewish Greek petty tyrant, Margulies is still a Brother!
>Huh...??? You consider Lipa, MBD, Avrum Freid et al (What DB terms "shiny-shoe music" Please explain the term Beary, BTW did you coin it?) FUN???
Lipa is not shiny-shoe music.
Whether he's your cup of tea or not, as I posted at Hirhurim, he's funny, original, is a non-conformist, has talent and would be a freestyle rapper if he wasn't a chussid.
like an earlier half-Jewish Greek petty tyrant,
Herod???
would be a freestyle rapper if he wasn't a chussid.
Ah but he isn't a chusid. He is a Racoon-Club member.
http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2007...ub-
judaism.html
Then again so is 50%+ of his audience.
MoChosid and his co-religionists...
http://www.aishkodesh.org/
now THOSE are chasidim
The only thing keeping me Jewish is shutting my ears to these crackpots and imposters.
The thing keeping me Jewish is my faith. These crackpots and imposters are a reason (among others) that I have sworn off any categorization of my Jewishness. Of course, they could never understand the concept of "a Jew is a Jew" if it punched them in the face, so I suppose it would be lost on them.
>Where does a blog that happily rips off news stories, publishes misleading photos, and provides a comfortable home for some of the most racist and retarded commenters in the blogosphere find the nerve to drape itself in daas torah?]
Hah, what perfect irony. I couldn't have defined daas torah better than you just did.
>Herod???
אגריפס המלך עמד וקיבל, וקרא עומד; ושיבחוהו חכמים. וכשהגיע "לא תוכל לתת עליך איש נוכרי, אשר לא אחיך הוא" (דברים יז,טו, זלגו עיניו דמעות; אמרו לו, אל תתיירא אגריפס, אחינו אתה, אחינו אתה
Agrippa; Mishnah Sotah 7:8
>Ah but he isn't a chusid. He is a Racoon-Club member
He didn't ask to be born into a world in which he can't conform.
"I bet you the Soneh Yisroel threatened to destroy his bodchen gig if he didn't cave. It's no empty threat, either. All they have to do is say the word ... much like the word they never seem to say when it comes to addressing the REAL problems in Klal Yisroel."
And one of the signators is the one who perpetrated a very REAL problem.
This stuff makes me ill. We live in troubled times when child molesting is tolerated while concerts are outlawed.
If you will permit a "professional" opinion by one who is a trained composer, who is also a chusid, who has spent close to a half century in the study of this whole subject, who has taught it in universities around the country, who has published extensively on the subject, etc., ad nauseam, I would respectfully suggest that from a strictly musical perspective, there is not one person on this forum who is in any way qualified to discuss MUSICAL issues as pertains the whole area of musicology and ethnomusicology wherein the entire subject lives and or dies.
Absent this most central point, the only thing that can be discussed are halachic cum social issues pertaining to the entire reshus of concert performances, or the lamentable state of what is loosely and irresponsibly called "Jewish Music."
Suffice it to say that absent the appropriate background and training, it is not even possible to begin to discuss the subject of "what is Jewish music." In terms of "Da'as Torah" there may be da'as involved, but that da'as is totally bereft of hard scholarship and is, therefore, null and void on the musical issues per se. There may be "Torah" as well, but unless married to scholarship, it is anything BUT musical.
So, unless there are any musicologists and ethnomusicologists out there, that is, people who are professionally trained to discuss the topic, it's best to drop it.
What you are talking about here is at its heart nothing more holy or sacrosanct than politics, certainly not music except, perhaps, as the unstated objection to the current "idiom" of much "Jewish music" which does nothing to conceal the fundamental manner and the substance of the rock n'roll culture of the secular world b'klal which it imitates so religiously!
Now, here's a thought for you -
A friend of mine who lives in Athens (yes, Greece) and who is a major player in the study of ethnomusicological issues as they pertain to Greek folk music has spent a considerable amount of time studying the folk music of Salonika (Saloniki, in Greek) which, as some of you may know, had/has a very large indigineous Jewish population. There are any number of Greek folk tunes that are almost identical to any number of eastern European niggunim - so close in fact, that it is impossible to determine which is the original, or to what extent one culture influenced the other. What is certain beyond a doubt, howeve, is that both cultures INFLUENCED EACH OTHER. And it is ALSO clear the we ("Jews") picked up and deposited musical influences from every place we've lived in the past 2000 years. If you want a non-musical example of linguistic transformation (which this is, by the way) consider how Yiddish is spoken differently wherever it is spoken - because of all the vernacular noun and verb forms that are picked up in the host country.
It shouldn't take much of an effort to do the necessary extrapolations to see just how complex the problem of "what is Jewish music" actually is. That is, of course, if you want to get an accurate picture, and not settle for unsubstantiated and largely uninformed opions (factoids).
(What DB terms "shiny-shoe music" Please explain the term Beary, BTW did you coin it?)
No. MoC did.
I remember being told that it was forbidden to listen to classical music because the melodies were "stolen" from the melodies sung by the Leviyim in the Bais Hamikdosh. Following that line of thought, those Jewish musicians who "borrow" from the modern melody writers, who "borrowed" from the classical music writers, are not using music written by goyim at all.
According to the commenter Proud Jew on YW, LS had to be stopped otherwise in the future "kids will be going to Beatles (or worse) concerts".
This may truly be the reason - if they are giving out time machines at these concerts, one of the kids may go back more than 5768 years and find that the world already existed.
This, I believe, could be the root of the ban.
ROFL. That comment deserves to be reprinted here.
how can you say lipa has cahnged, if you just look at his clips promting the event. whoo-hoo - disgusting. if my child would do the whoo-hoo bit he would find out very quickly how unhappy i am about it. let’s not allude [sic] ourselves. lipa may be a nice person, but his shtick are [sic] poisonous, and we can’t allow our kids to be exposed to it. and it is this shtick that is bothering the rabbonim. if someone were to open a store of hefkeirus r”l on 13tyh avenue, will anyone in their right mind say “well they spent so much money on it” ? ” next time we won’t allow it” - ridiculous. by the time next time comes around, or kids will be going to beatles (or worse) concerts. how can anyone compare this to hasc or other concerts. the issue is not seperate seating. the issue is the hefkeirus our kids will bring home from there, even if it was men or ladies only. i have never met lipa and i am not interested in knocking him. he might even be an erlicher guy (on the outside) but this shtick thing is outside the realm of yiddishkeit
Comment by Proud Jew
Every day I feel the fact that we are a dor yasom sheb'yasomim more intensely. The problem is that nobody cares what the rabbonim say and the musag of having an actual rebbi who imparts ikkirei ha-daas v'emunah has almost vanished in today's yeshivos and 13 y/o pishers walk around thinking they're the Brisker Rav.
Lakewood has morphed into some sort of grotesque corporate yeshiva where the roshei yeshiva are clearly not in full control and many once proud branches of chassidus are emboriled in machloksim over gelt in secular courts vchulu ...... There is very little credibility left. Chabad has the moshichists, court battles and the corporate aura as well, so what is attractive to a young frum kid these days?
Rav Ahron Kotler would've folded up and taken the talmidim far away 10 years ago. The Satmar Rav would have thrown these clowns outta town 30 years ago. R' Shloimele Bobover, the ohev sholom v'rodef sholom of his day is rolling over in his grave.
Sex, drugs, and rampant kefira are all over the place along with ignored molestation problems and all of a sudden we're worried about "the big event" @ MSG!
Chareidi Judaism used to be a sacred cow to me but the culture out there is so repugnant at times it's almost too hard to bear. For instance OORAH a fine mossad is offering a catalog without women for those inclined to receive such. Well, is it poroper to have women or not? BMG puts out a catalog for a chinese auction that is considered too m'gushem and then cancels the event at a financial loss. Who authorized it in the first place? Were the roshei yeshiva consulted? Did they approve it? If so, fine. If not, we've got a problem. The rabbonim understandably assured the Internet but on Yeshivaworld was instructed when to "break" the recent Lipa story.
The "yeridos hadoros" that's taken place even in the course of my 39 year life is so immense that I fear for the future. IY"H Moshiach zol kummen b'meheira b'yomeinu! OY MEH HAYA LANU!
Yup, the dancing is a real problem. It's why the gedolim banned premarital sex--it might lead to mixed dancing.
Chareidi Judaism used to be a sacred cow to me but the culture out there is so repugnant at times it's almost too hard to bear
I'm with you, my brother. I'm with you.
or kids will be going to beatles (or worse) concerts.
ויש גורסים Beatlemania
By this reasoning the Hatikvah has to be replaced with something else. The melody is a direct ripoff of the melody written by the composer Smetana in his work Die Moldau.
Not just a jewish problem. The American Star Spangled Banner "borrowed" the British tune for God Save the Queen. Ironic there.
Can someone explain who this Lipa guy is and what people find objectionable about his music, what you mean by shtick and why people would worry about it leading to Beatles concerts(the commentor does know that the Beatles are not together- or all alive for that matter - doesn't s/he?)
If you will permit a "professional" opinion by one who is a trained composer, who is also a chusid, who has spent close to a half century Yada yada self-congratulation yada yada... I would respectfully suggest that ...there is not one person on this forum who is in any way qualified to discuss MUSICAL issues as pertains the whole area of musicology and ethnomusicology
Hey Full-of-yourself Profesoor Composer or whatever TH you call yourself....Welcome to the J-Blogosphere. Just say waht you have to say and skip the condescencion and presentation of credentials. This isn't a job interview.
Heck, if you've been at it 50 years (waht a wasted life!) your probably tenured anyway. Not to mention mummifiesd.
How about the people who already bought tickets?
I guess this means MBD is assur. He's taken tunes from many sources over the years.
The American Star Spangled Banner "borrowed" the British tune for God Save the Queen. Ironic there.
I thought that was "My Country tis of thee"
Can they still sing "Asher Bara" at weddings to the Men At Work tune?
YH
I was about 30 comments ahead of you on men at work
http://www.haloscan.com/
comments...03979808#449835
BTW-
Full of yourself "Composer"
As you bring a wealth of scholarship and experience to the discussion care to adress my questions here:
http://www.haloscan.com/
comments...03979808#449835
> Uncle Moishy (ripping off "Oh Susanna" work's for his "I am Yosef...is my father still alive")
That was Rabbi Shmuel Kunda in 613 Torah Avenue. Did Uncle Moishy do the tune also? (after my time). In any case, the adaptation originated with Rabbi Kunda.
Please translate "bodchen"
Fundie,
> I was about 30 comments ahead of you on men at work
Yeah, I saw it after I commented. I just tend to comment on the spot on what I read before reading all the comments all the way to the bottom.
spent a considerable amount of time studying the folk music of Salonika (Saloniki, in Greek) which, as some of you may know, had/has a very large indigineous Jewish population. There are any number of Greek folk tunes that are almost identical to any number of eastern European niggunim - so close in fact, that it is impossible to determine which is the original, or to what extent one culture influenced the other. What is certain beyond a doubt, howeve, is that both cultures INFLUENCED EACH OTHER. And it is ALSO clear the we ("Jews") picked up and deposited musical influences from every place we've lived in the past 2000 years.
Perfesser, this is old news. Who can forget the iconic album covers of Kol Solonika???
http://www.mostlymusic.com/salon...its-p-
1769.html
A great example of the days when Jewish-Gentile-Musical-Cultural cross polination was permitted and celebrated even at the cost of undercutting every lesson we ever learned about Chanukah.
He didn't ask to be born into a world in which he can't conform.
S. I've no problem with that. Nor would the Gedoloim (I surmise) if he would take his non-conformity to it's logical conclusion, drop the levush and recuse himself from Chasidic society.
i find it hypocritical and ironic that so many here who are raking the Rabbonim/signatories over the coals are precisely those who celebrate the Prophetic tradition in Judaism. All the Rabbonim are essentially doing is echoing the strirring
words of Eliyahu HaNavee (lasts week's haftorah)
וייגש אלייהו אל-כל-העם, ויאמר עד-מתיי אתם פוסחים על-שתי הסעיפים--אם-יהוה האלוהים לכו אחריו, ואם-הבעל לכו אחריו; ולא-ענו העם אותו, דבר. כב
What?!
Do you compare singing Psalms at a concert equivalent to worshipping Baal??
* consider
Actually, fundie, had you approached my post with even a modicum of respect I would've gladly considered it. But, inasmuch as you chose to bellow your insults at me from that place where "the sun don't shine" I'm disinclined to accept your invitation.
Now, upon further reflection, if you wish to make me a public apology and start over again with all due matters of midos b'seder a-p-h, then perhaps we can move forward. I do not deal with rabid temper tantrums save to admonish the perpetrator to cease and desist, or to "up the dose."
Your move.
Not just a jewish problem. The American Star Spangled Banner "borrowed" the British tune for God Save the Queen.
Not true at all. I'm a Sex Pistols fan, and I can verify that no American patriotic song bears any resemblance whatsoever to "God Save the Queen" or any other Sex Pistols song. 
. . . oh, you meant the OTHER "God Save the Queen."
Yeah, the tune for that one was "borrowed" for "My Country Tis of Thee."
You are on the right track about the "Star Spangled Banner," though, as the tune for that one was taken from the mid 18th century British drinking song, "To Anacreon in Heaven."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
To_...Spangled_Banner
So this what it is all about??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=v...feature=related
>S. I've no problem with that. Nor would the Gedoloim (I surmise) if he would take his non-conformity to it's logical conclusion, drop the levush and recuse himself from Chasidic society.
What do R. Shmuel Kamenecki and R. Aharon Schechter care if he is a cultural chussid or not? How is it their horse in the race?
As for "it's simple - leave," you've got to be kidding. Leave to where? What about his family? You don't think he has a mother who would mourn for the rest of her days if he cut his peyos? What should he reinvent himself as? A srugie wearing Yiddish badchan?
or kids will be going to beatles (or worse) concerts
They're on tour?
I thought I would have to wait until the next life to see them!
Awesome!!!
How much are tickets?
Our kids could have a much worse role model
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-
...feature=related
How about the people who already bought tickets?
Maybe they can trade them in for Beatles tickets!
Just two quick points.
There does seem to be a strong correlation between rock music and drug use. Keith Richards recnetly sadi he snorted his fathers ashes along wiht cocaine. Ozzie Osbournes brain has been scrambled from drug use. Even Paul McCartney has been arrested several times for marjuana possecion. I undestand that many of these kids who are "off the derech" and using drugs (R"L) are also heavily into rock and roll. I don't know if there is a casual connection, but maybe it is something to be concerned about.
I forgot my second point. Oh yes, I undertand that a tune someitmes does become public domain, so there is no problem of violating a copywrite. I don't know exactly what the criterion are.
" Actually, fundie, had you approached my post with even a modicum of respect I would've gladly considered it. But, inasmuch as you chose to bellow your insults at me from that place where "the sun don't shine" I'm disinclined to accept your invitation.
Now, upon further reflection, if you wish to make me a public apology and start over again with all due matters of midos b'seder a-p-h, then perhaps we can move forward. I do not deal with rabid temper tantrums save to admonish the perpetrator to cease and desist, or to "up the dose."
Your move.
composer | 02.25.08 - 1:17 pm | #"
He's right, you are a pompous ass
Gadfly, there was and is a connection between drug culture and rock and roll. There's a reason why "sex, drugs & rock and roll" is an expression.
However, there is no indication that the objection of the gedolei Yisrael to Lipa Schmelzer and the big event stemmed from a concern for the infiltration of drugs and drug culture into Orthodoxy, which has anyway already happened some 40 years ago, as indicated by the question submitted to R Moshe Feinstein (YD vol. III #35) about whether or not one is permitted to smoke חשיש.
Furthermore, I'd be surprised if Just Saying No to rock music (or derivative Jewish music) correlates with Just Saying No to drugs.
DB Trinitarian:
"There's a difference between being "inspired" by certain musical styles and wholsale note for note ripoff of "goyishe" tunes. perhaps when some alteration of the note progression is evident the song is considered nikneh b'shinui."
See this old post of mine, citing the Chida:
http://parsha.blogspot.com/2007/...ething-
new.html
"ברכי יוסף אורח חיים סימן תקס ס"ק ה ו. דין ג.
דברי דברי תשבחות או שיר של הודאות וכו'. בספר מעשה רוקח פ"ח מהלכות תפלה נשאל על המשוררים קדיש וקדושה לחן שירי נכרים, והאריך לאסור, ובכלל {דבריו} הביא דברי מהר"ם די לונזאנו בספר שתי ידות דף ק' שכתב בשם ספר חסידים (סי' תשסח ויזהר מי שקולו נעים שלא יזמר ניגונים נכרים, ודקדק שלא כתב שירים נכרים, דזה פשיטא דאסור, אלא נגונים נכרים, כלומר אף דהשיר הוא קדוש, הניגון נכרי יפסידהו, וכו' ע"ש. ונעלם ממנו דברי מהר"ם די לונזאנו עצמו שם בספר שתי ידות דף קמ"ב שכתב וז"ל, וזאת היתה לי סיבה גורמת לחבר רוב שירי על ניגוני הישמעאלים, וכו' וראיתי קצת חכמים כמתאוננים רע על המחברים שירות ותשבחות לשי"ת על ניגונים אשר לא מבני ישראל המה, ואין הדין עמם, כי אין בכך כלום, עכ"ל. וע"ש מ"ש הרב מהר"ם די לונזאנו בענין זה, ומה שהשיג על מהר"י נאגר"ה בשירותיא"
It would seem that this is not "being inspired by," but rather "wholesale note for note ripoff." And indeed, many Chassidic tunes are exactly that. Ever hear the Tetris niggun?
There does seem to be a strong correlation between rock music and drug use.
There's also a strong correlation between jazz music and drugs. Was there ever a more marijuana and heroin filled scene?
There's not even a conjectural correlation between country music and alcohol - there are too many songs to count that mention whiskey alone, let alone beer and other alcohol.
Classical music was not immune to composers and performers falling under the influence of drug or drink either.
Some of the nicest sounding and (mostly) inoffensive music has been composed or performed by people who had drug problems (James Taylor, David Crosby), and some of the most far-out and strange music has been composed by people who were not drug users (Frank Zappa).
By the way, Keef's comment about snorting his father was later claimed by him to have been a joke - then he claimed he did do it, but without cocaine. He said this a year after he sustained a concusion from falling out of a coconut tree while on vacation in Fiji (no joke) - so who knows what he was thinking. But, yes, Keef definitely was a drug user. He claims to have stopped recently because drugs "aren't strong enough" for him.
Ozzy, it's unclear what his condition stems from. He was not a mentally stable guy even before he joined his first band. Whether his current state is a result of his prexisting conditions, he drug abuse, or the medications he has been prescribed to treat his conditions is unclear. His tremors, however, are the result of Parkin Syndrome, which is a genetic condition.
(I'm not a fan of either Keef or Ozzy. They're both jerks for different reasons. And Dio was a much better vocalist for Black Sabbath than Ozzy ever was. 
)
My understanding is that the in the jazz scene, drug abuse was kept behind closed doors. In rock and roll, the ethic, as noted above by S, is "sex, drugs, and rock and roll." Its an openly celebrated lifestyle.
I don't know of many Jewish kids who are heavily inot jazz, or country music. Rock does seem to have made significant inroads into the Jewish community.
Or maybe, just maybe, we shoud ban jazz and country/western.
Gad, shhha. You're hurting my ears.
The surest way to send whole hordes of the frum community galloping down the left road is to ban any of the music popular in outside culture, at least the tunes. Forbidden fruit always has more allure.
Now, upon further reflection, if you wish to make me a public apology and start over again with all due matters of midos b'seder a-p-h, then perhaps we can move forward. I do not deal with rabid temper tantrums save to admonish the perpetrator to cease and desist, or to "up the dose."
Actually, it is you who owe the apology - both to Defrocked Bray and to the rest of the commenters here.
It's fine if you want to state your credentials and offer your opinion on the matter based on your level of learning and experience.
However, it is out of bounds for you to come onto this forum and tell the participants what they can and cannot discuss.
Therefore, Bray (and anyone else) was fully justified in feeling indignant.
I am sure that I am not alone in finding your comments regarding Greek folk music and Eastern European tunes to have been very interesting and welcome to the discussion. However, the preamble that came before was entirely unnecessary and, as you can see, greatly detracted from the main content of your post.
I can understand how reading a discussion by novices about a subject in which one is an expert can make one cringe. However, if it is an open forum without rules against it, you cannot come in and attempt to tell people they cannot continue the discussion. You can enlighten and correct, but it is not for you to end the discussion.
Perhaps you are new here and are unfamiliar with the protocol. That's fine. A quick apology would go a long way toward mending fences here.
As you would say, "Your move."
>A friend of mine who lives in Athens (yes, Greece)
Oh, I thought you meant Athens, Boro Park.
S.
What do R. Shmuel Kamenecki and R. Aharon Schechter care if he is a cultural chussid or not? How is it their horse in the race?
You're right. Yet I suspect that they were not the prime movers in this concert-busting move, even though their names appear near the top of the signatories (to lend it greater credibility.) This ban has Williamsburg written all over it.
You don't think he has a mother who would mourn for the rest of her days if he cut his peyos?
No doubt. And I think that the Rabbonim are as sensitive to her wounded maternal feelings as Devorah haNeveeah and Khazal were to those of Sisera's mother.
כח בְּעַד {ר} הַחַלּוֹן נִשְׁקְפָה וַתְּיַבֵּב אֵם סִיסְרָא, בְּעַד הָאֶשְׁנָב: {ס} מַדּוּעַ, בֹּשֵׁשׁ רִכְבּוֹ {ר} לָבוֹא-- {ס} מַדּוּעַ אֶחֱרוּ, פַּעֲמֵי מַרְכְּבוֹתָיו. {ס} ="28 Through the window she looked forth, and peered, the mother of Sisera, through the lattice: 'Why is his chariot so long in coming? Why tarry the wheels of his chariots? "
What should he reinvent himself as? A srugie wearing Yiddish badchan?
That's the rub. If he just dropped pretenses he could flex his creative muscles, broaden his horizons and do something more universal and far less parochial with his prodigious musical talent.
He's right, you are a pompous ass
Well put Gabe. Composer, when H**l freezes over. Begone from this blog and stop raising a stench.
עס שטינקט פון דיר דער גאוה ת"ק פרסה על ת"ק פרסה
when H**l freezes over
Bray, Hull freezes over every year. It's cold up in Quebec!
>You're right. Yet I suspect that they were not the prime movers in this concert-busting move, even though their names appear near the top of the signatories (to lend it greater credibility.) This ban has Williamsburg written all over it.
Oh, I know that. It's a Chassidishe ban. How do I know it? I read the names. It isn't a Litvishe ban.
>No doubt. And I think that the Rabbonim are as sensitive to her wounded maternal feelings as Devorah haNeveeah and Khazal were to those of Sisera's mother.
No doubt, just as the rabbonim are as sensitive to the suffering of enemies of the Jews as our forbearers who saw it proper for our thanksgiving on Pesach to be an incomplete one.
Oh, and I hear that bridges are being sold cheaply for the next 45 minutes.
Bray, that's not really an answer. You missed my point? I'm asking, how can you just cavalierly say that he and those like him should cease culturally identifying with Chassidim? As I said, he did not ask to be raised in such a world. Therefore, it is a tragedy should he be presented with having to reject that world, along with his family and certainly not something to cavalierly suggest, as you did.
>That's the rub. If he just dropped pretenses he could flex his creative muscles, broaden his horizons and do something more universal and far less parochial with his prodigious musical talent.
You're actually advocating that he give up his world so that he have a more interesting career?
For all we know, Lipa took Taanis 22a seriously.
SDR | 02.25.08 - 12:44 pm |
I don't think I've ever see a comment I have ever agreed with more. I would not change a word of that. Well done.
I'm asking, how can you just cavalierly say that he and those like him should cease culturally identifying with Chassidim? As I said, he did not ask to be raised in such a world. Therefore, it is a tragedy should he be presented with having to reject that world, along with his family and certainly not something to cavalierly suggest, as you did.
That question would be better answered by Baal Devarim than by me.
http://sitra-achra.blogspot.com/
My point was not whether or not it's wise for Lipa emotionally, spiritually, culturally to do it or not. My point was that HAD he chucked the levush, if he "looked" MO, or even Shaggy haired bohemian , he would never have found himself in the hot water he now finds himself in.
Shlomo Carlebach's music was basically banned by Rav Moshe z"l who had more clout and juice than all the signatories of our current pashkivil put together. Yet Shlomo was never called upon to cancel a concert. Furthermore he died a near universally beloved figure (or at least his music was beloved) even within the Charedi camp.
Why? Well obviously becuase his music was great and of enduring quality and not the kitsch junk they call JM today, but also because he left little room for confusion.
With his long hair, Magen David bling, embroidered kippot, no shemiras negiah, Hippie-ish entourage, long-deferred marriage and new age antinomian Toireh'lekh he had recused himself quite clearly and emphatically from the Yeshiva/Chasidic worlds he had formerly been a part of.
Not so Lipa. The young and superficial look at him and see the Tzurah of a real Chasidisha yid. For them the possibilities of "confusion" are much greater. Hence the Elijah-to-Ba'al-worshipper reaction of the Rabbonim.
This is the same cultural phenomenon that has made the eruv fights in Boro Park and Williamsburg much more rabid than the one in Flatbush. If inzireh mentschen carry on Shabbos the little be-payised yingeleh will have a hard time accepting that/why he should not. It is these folks that the Gedolim seek to protect with this ban.
When counterfiet currency that is nearly identical to the real thing floods the market the genuine stuff is devalued. the same is true in the spiritual marketplace.
DB,
I think u should find out if Lipa, the tzadik that he is, will now be returning money that he profited from stealing goyish songs to their original composers?
Or is that not allowed because its a mitzvah to steal from Goyim?
Ya 12:44 was pretty spot on.
This episode could easily have been resolved. The producer could have replaced schmeltzer with michael jackson. The "gedolim" and their ilk would have obviously preferred a pedophile over a difficult to handle chassidishe entertainer.
the question here is how much of secular music is actualy jewish?
and how much of it is not? given the massive influence on other disciplines that jews have had (virtualy no discipline in western society would be what it was today with out, not even remotely. The west litteraly leaned on us as a crutch in the revival of the sciences, as we transmitted that which we had learned hundreds of years ago, and that which was going on in the muslim world.) I'm not sure you could call any music not "jewish" or "jewish"...
besides, most music borrows motifs from everything else, to a greater or lesser extent. A bar here, a bar here, maybe with a little simplification or extra flourish, and perhaps they meld it in to this section of music...
its like, not such a simple thing.
(I may not compose, but I am a classical musician, although much out of practice.)
I understand the organizers were trying to get the haskama of the paiya rebbe, mendel the coat rack, michiten and yankel feferkorn (all interesting characters in borough park).
But they all declined stating truthfully that they are much more normal then the one's who co-signed.
besides, most music borrows motifs from everything else, to a greater or lesser extent. A bar here, a bar here, maybe with a little simplification or extra flourish, and perhaps they meld it in to this section of music...
It's more than just that. There's a reason Sephardi songs sound Arabic and a Chabad niggun sounds Russian. Caucasian Sketches could've been written by a Gerrer Chossid.
A lot of Jewish music sounds like Greek or in the larger sense, Mediterranean music. There is a segment of music that Israelis refer to as "Yam Tichoni". Virtually indistinguishable from some Jewish tunes. How many times have you heard Misirlou played at a smorgasbord at a frum wedding?
Random thoughts come to mind...
First, I understand SDR and Dov regarding the pain. I think that's more than enough motivation for this blog to be no matter what the daat torah programmed want to say. Those looked up to for proper answers on the faith should not be inflicting this kind of intellectual anguish on anyone. Preponderance of the evidence is that Dov and SDR and those like them are finding a real conflict to care about.
Second, drugs? With what money would young charedi kids afford them? I work a full time job and can't afford drugs. Maybe they'll fence the family's PC, stereo, HD plasma TV, and other such things they don't have? Don't think so. Rock and roll doesn't lead to illegal drugs on the part of the listening public. It leads to over the counter headache remedies, pants up to your armpits, and a grandpa sweater while you mutter nasty things about kids on your lawn.
Third, the actual musical person with the friend in Greece made a good point. Which is exactly why no one involved with the ban will listen. It detracts from their power which is the subtle background force guiding them more than the nobility and propriety of their position. If every ruling ever handed down by gedolim made total perfect sense, it would probably be the sign of moshiach's impending arrival. Failing that, blind irrational delusional redefinition of what "total perfect sense" is will do it seems. If you can't get Mohammed to the right mountain, rename whatever mountain Mohammed is on.
Fourth, listen to the award winning Vangelis tune from Chariots of Fire. "On top of old smokey... all covered with cheese... I lost my poor meatball... when somebody sneezed..." Humans are derivative and imitative without even trying. We just do it naturally. Even turning camp songs into orchestral tunes.
George Harrison
My sweet L-rd.
copyright infringement lawsuit.
Neeed I say more?
What we should really be talking about is the fact that this mentality is probably going to seriously overtake our observant community as time goes by. This notion that every time Rav Elyashiv (or any other extremely conservative posek) says something, the earth should move, will seriously destroy peoples lives. Rav Elyashiv doesn't even feel this way about his own views, but the chareidi machinery will keep grinding on telling you that that's besides the point--since he is a bigger talmud hacham than (name your favorite rabbi) his opinions are the law of the land.
Fourth, listen to the award winning Vangelis tune from Chariots of Fire. "On top of old smokey... all covered with cheese... I lost my poor meatball... when somebody sneezed..." Humans are derivative and imitative without even trying. We just do it naturally. Even turning camp songs into orchestral tunes.
Or how almost every popular song written is based on Cannon in D by Pachelbel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J...h?
v=JdxkVQy7QLM
These rabbeim are pietistic assholes. Puritanical anal sphincters, each and every one.
Instead of kvetching over shor shengach et haparah,, they ought to purge their hostility for music with a colonic irrigation on a daily basis. This might relieve their unbearable urges to oppress their cretinous sycophants with even more chumras.
Hmmmm ...The melody for Aishes Chayil sounds eerily similar to Bach's Christmas Oratorio.
Oh wait ! .... Bach stole it from the first Satmar Rebbe !
... pietistic assholes
... Puritanical anal sphincters
... colonic irrigation on a daily basis
What do you think Freud would have to say about Abe?
He would probably commend me on my fine use of grammatical analogues to describe these assholes.
He would also invite these rabbeim to make appointments for a free psychiatric exam. The phenomenon of mass infantality that has infected Orthodoxy has presented itself for a worthy scientific study. But there is no rush. Opportunities to study stupidity and self-delusion on such a large scale among fundamentalist orthodoxy are occurring with greater frequency. He can always wait until a new perversion of halacha to study these idiots. Rumor has it that separate entrances for women at subway stations are being seriously considered by many Gedolim.
The entrances are for men, the exits are for women. Problem solved.
"Rock and roll doesn't lead to illegal drugs on the part of the listening public. It leads to over the counter headache remedies, pants up to your armpits, and a grandpa sweater while you mutter nasty things about kids on your lawn."
So, the music of "Youth Rebellion" for the latter part of the 20th century causes one to be an old fart?
"He would probably commend me on my fine use of grammatical analogues to describe these assholes."
Actually, I'm impressed, too. But can you do 5 more?
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