I assure you that there are communities where one can ask questions and struggle with mitzvot, and fit right in. Easy for me to say because I live in one (I think) and perhaps they are rare. Keep fighting the good fight. If you have the inclination and the fortitude to speak up about your beliefs, who knows, you may discover kindred spirits.
I should have added - Orthodox communities.
This gives me the germ of an idea. Who'd be interested in joining me in organizing an evening event geared to open minded Orthodox, probably in the NYC area, with a speaker to kick things off and then an open round table discussion on issues in Judaism today, no-holds-barred? Sort of like a live blog!
dys, sounds like an interesting idea. But, you have to contend with the issues in this post. Most people are embarrassed to come forward as one of the people who doesn't do (or want to do) everything or who struggles with whether it's even worth it to try to do everything.
Frum Nonconformists Anonymous
KA,
I think the most helpful thing that could be done to increase mitzvah observance would be to have someone write a completely honest, no holds-barred book on various mitzvot saying explicitly:
1) This is the mitzvah as required by the Torah (mitzvah d'oraita)
2) This is the mitzvah as required by the rabbis (mitzvah d'rabanan)
3) This is how the mitzvah is kept according to tradition (minhag)
4) This is a stringency on how the mitzvah is kept (chumrah)
This way people can make more informed decisions about the mitzvot without being overwhelmed by the enormity of the mitzvah.
For example, in terms of Niddah if someone is told that you can't touch for about 2 weeks, must have separate beds, can't sit on the same sofa, can't pass things to each other, must do bedika, must do hefsek tahara, must cut fingernails before mikvah, must track onot, etc etc etc one is likely to throw their hands in the air and say "forget it!!! it's impossible!!!"
A book like this would at least let someone keep the mitzvot d'oraita (Torah commanded mitzvot) of niddah and slowly work their way up to a more complete level of observance. For example, one can simply abstain from sex during the actual niddah period and then go to mikvah shortly thereafter without the extra 7 day wait (just an example, not giving halacha).
I want a commision, DYS
KosherAcademic - i totally hear what you are saying. we are not supposed to question, because that labels us in certain communities as being doubters, when really all we want is to be able to understand why we do what we do. we arent saying we wont do it, just tech us WHY we should.
apparently questionning anything in Judaism in some communities = heresy.
When I was in Yeshiva back in the 1950s and 60s the answer you would get from the Rebbe for asking that type of question would often be the traditional "frask en punim" (slap in the face). Unfortunately that alone made many bochurim go completely off the derech and some who I know carry the emotional scars to this very day.
The behavior in many Charedi communities today is basically the same approach albeit more sophisticated.
Over Shavuot we had a 3 hour 'symposium' at my (Orthodox) shul. I stuck my hand up as a consequence of the Rabbi saying that the world was 5769 years old and said that whilst I didn't want to argue the substantive point, did he accept that you could believe the world was billions of years old (as I do and as I reckon 99% of those there do) and still be a Torah true Jew.
He said no. Then, when I challenged him, he said yes. Then he said I shouldn't have asked.
And that's the problem. Rabbonim who are frightened of their own doubts and won't deal with ours.
In too much of Orthodoxy that mixes in with a pretty unpleasant set of social attitudes, which find authenticity in being 'frum' attitudes. So we'll all be cool with the guy who carries on Shabbat but show us a homosexual and we reach for the stones. Again, too many of our spiritual leaders prefer to have homogenous social attitudes rather than debate.
Doubt is normal and so is believing what can be demonstrated. Jewish leadership needs to engage with reality and, whilst it doesn't, Jews leave engagement with Judaism by the score.
I've just commented on the Bray post and - whoosh - it's gone.
Guess he was insignificant after all 
But it would be nice if he and DB could reach an agreement. All things in moderation...
I have found questions to acceptable in my circles.
There are places where they are not acceptable but we can make a difference by teaching our children to ask, asking our rabbis (like SM) and learning hashkafa and Jewish philosify.
Don't be so afraid to ask. If you find the askee to be useless go ask someone else.
It is not all the fault of the askees sometimes it is the fault of the askers for being afraid to ask in the first place...
Rabbi Fink,
Curious what you think about this:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...8954775/
#514352
Does a book like this exist?
Yes its called Shulchan Aruch with Mishna Brura commentary.
And for the non-MB sections there are other sources.
You need to have a lot of background knowledge of the sugyos to get it all, but it's all there...
You can set yourself up with a learned chavrusa and you will be on your way!
Oh come on!! 
I meant a readily accessible book. Even learned people struggle with SA and MB (and the various commentaries on each).
No. There is no other
But the tried and true way is still the best, and perhaps the easiest overall.
Find a chavrusa at your local Kollel and start studying, you will be amazed at how much you will learn, very quickly.
Torah study is meant to be a struggle, it is meant to be 'hard'. There is no way I can think of to distill it into bullet points without seriously sacrificing the meaning and depth.
The only place it might be possible would be in halacha and even there so much is necessary to even understand your varying degrees of stringency above.
For example: lets say A is Draban (per the book) B is minhag (per the book and C is chumra (per the book) and I am wondering about D (as the case so often is... and now my book of distilled halacha is of no help. But if studied properly, halacha is a guide, giving us direction in all situations.
I'm BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK. But it's come at a very steep price.
Would've loved to comment here in real time but just got unbanned a few moments ago. Maybe late tonight or early tomorrow.
In short your probelm is not following Rav Chaim's creed. No one would greet questions with hostility and suspicion oif they were confident that a lack of answers did not equate to tossing the question observance under the bus.
Thank the Baal HaBlog and Great G-d Almighty...I'm free at LAST!!!
DYS - Sounds like a good idea, but I agree with JS that most people would be too embarrassed/ashamed to come forward. So what you end up with is the fringe who will already discuss it: basically, preaching to the converted.
JS - the books isn't a bad idea, but I could only imagine the Rabbaim who would flip out over the separation of d'oraita from d'rabbanan, although I've found that knowing and understanding the difference has greatly helped me in my own observance.
As for finding a chavruta, E. Fink, well, it can be hard, especially for a woman. Seems all women are really taught, even in this very MO community, is Ivrit and tehillim. And that, on a Tuesday morning (so it's only available for those women who do not work), and in my effort to secure some regular learning I've come up...dry so far.
hey KA - you aint never asked me *pout*
i have been considering writing such a book, especialy as i seem to take to halachic sources and debate like a duck on water... but it would be years, if ever before i finished. Many a rabbanim started writing a sefer halacha and died before he could finish it.
and efink, i've never been so impressed with the MB... much more so with the SAH"R
i mean, if you guys want me to spent a year writing an example set of halachot (in this case the harachot bein arayot... all of them) with a down to earth approach of what is halacha, what is chumra, what is derabanon, what is deoraisa, and what is in doubt, etc, and a clear non-hysterical presentation of it, then save up a years salary and i'll write such a kuntres, and if you like it, i'll accept more support to write more, but i'd need the time to devote to researching the sources and comming to my conclusions... and no gurantees about the results, i intend to take the sources where ever they take me.
Perhaps you should commit to it, Yoni. I think it could be very useful.
Wanna learn together Hadassah? (There, now I've asked! I was actually attempting to work through our local Kollel Torah MiTzion, but to no avail.)
i need a years support though, especialy since i'm about to get married. . . and i'm going to eretz yisroel.
(and if i finish sooner then so much the better.)
(i'll start on another kuntres, and so on and so on.
Rabbi Fink,
Agree with KA that it is very difficult for women to find a chavruta. It's also hard to find a chavruta who is knowledgeable enough in halacha to discuss these issues or be willing to distill it in the manner I describes above. In fact, I think most rabbis would outright ban a book that even tried to separate religious practice by b'oraita, d'rabanan, minhag, and chumra. Also, from my limited study of SA and MB, I never found halacha broken down like this.
Also, while Torah study isn't easy, there's no reason why observance of halacha should be difficult.
What would you tell a couple who came to you and said: "Rabbi, we're not sure if we want to keep Niddah, but we want to try. What things do we absolutely have to do and what things are not absolutely necessary?"
Yoni,
Why would you start with Arayot?
i personally think that the problem is that people tend to be of the opinion that its all or nothing. either you are frum or you arent. i think that what determines one's frumkeit is more what direction one is going in than all of the specifics. i also believe that one's sincerity is very important no matter what level one is holding.
no one is perfect and NO ONE does everything. i repeat NO ONE DOES EVERY MITZVAH.so enough with the all or nothing business.
because, i've done alot of researching on the subject of shaking hands and negiah in general, so i have a good grounding to start on... thats all. i actualy started something like this on that subject. (I was an am planning to be an elementary school teacher, so since most of my coworkers would be women, knowing these halachot inside and out would be useful to me.
frum single female -- I think you are right, but the point is that no one talks about it. I recently told this to a good friend who is in the process of converting Orthodox, and I wish someone had told me when I was becoming observant. Not that it is permission to not do mitzvot, but that being frum should be a path, not an all-or-nothing stand-still.
dovie, look at rabbi hororitz's website.
he's called for withholding money from yeshivot, and at least one baal tzedoka did.
>One of the reasons I became observant was because of the openness—I thought—with which we could ask questions about anything.
Great point. BT's are told to ask, while FFB's are expected to suck it up and obey. Two contradictory messages. Something's gotta give.
>Rabbonim who are frightened of their own doubts and won't deal with ours
Bingo.
Yoni:
link?
KA and HSM:
If a woman would want to study with me I would do it so long as there was a group (to avoid yichud issues).
Perhaps there is an enlightened soul in Montreal who could do the same.
Wait, I actually know someone. Email me for deets.
OTD, Frum Single Female:
The stifling of questions is terrible and inexcusable. However, there are plenty of places / rabbis to ask if you are willing to do a little leg work.
I am one of those rabbis, and I know a lot of others who are more qualified than I. But again, sometimes the burden is placed on the asker to find the right askee.
The idea that we are traveling not stationary is illustrated well by imagining 2 buses at the depot. One is heading North and one is heading South. It is true they are both at the same depot but more important than their location is their destination. Where do you want to be? North or South? That is the bus you should be on... And that is more important than which station you are at...
E. Fink said:
If a woman would want to study with me I would do it so long as there was a group (to avoid yichud issues).
Is that the only way to avoid yichud issues? If not, please describe the other ways.
It is the only way I would be comfortable.
KA,
My experience when OJ was so different from what you are describing. Not only was I allowed to question and told that the goal was to strive to do the best we could, A rabbi in high spent a lot of time with me one on one trying to help me with my questions.
My father left the yeshivish world and went to the MO world because he was rejected from that world because he questioned too much, he pushed too hard, he was always asking a "klutz kasha". He wanted to raise his kids to be able to question and reminded us of this so many times in my childhood, if it was once it was a thousand times.
And yet I am no longer religious at all. And it isn't because I couldn't question or thought I had to keep 613 or nothing. My questions led me to answers which led me to no longer believing that there was any truth in OJ. So while I don't think even my parents would have it any other way, there is a price to OJ when they allow open communication and questioning. I am an example of such a "problem".
>sometimes the burden is placed on the asker to find the right askee.
Sounds like you're passing the buck.
But say, in practice, how is one to find a rabbi who will accept questions? Imagine there was no internet. How would you do it? Are there classified ads? Is there a rabbi store where you pick the right rabbi? Or do you do what most people do, and you're at the mercy of some arbitrary rabbinic authority who hopefully didn't spend too much time in Lakewood?
OTD:
Not passing the buck. If you care about something then you will find out the answer, and not give up after a couple of swings and misses...
I would start with a (good) kiruv Rabbi, ask him the question, ask him if he knows who else you could ask, do your due diligence.
The Rabbis themselves said in Avos, "Asei Lcha Rav" - Make for yourself a Rabbi (word for word), it is on the asker to find a Rabbi for himself.
You would do the same thing if you were looking for a contractor to fix your bathroom...
I am happy to be your first stop. Email me for my phone number if you would like to talk.
Look, E_FInk. It's nothing personal. You seem like a perfectly reasonable person and all, but I just don't feel an interest in religion, I guess I can say. I'm afraid I've asked, and I've got my answers, and I'm not really looking for more questions or answers at this point.
>If you care about something then you will find out the answer, and not give up after a couple of swings and misses...
My problem with this approach is that it presumes that there is an answer, and a satisfactory one, to every question. I've asked some good questions, and I've found that the approach often switches from "we have answers to everything" to "faith is required". To me, that's more of a non-answer than an answer. I saw a lot of cases where guilt etc was used to more or less stifle the question as opposed to providing a satisfactory answer.
OTD:
I got no problem with that. I thought offering was the right thing to do. Make your choices as you see fit.
E.Fink said:
It is the only way I would be comfortable.
OK, but what are the other ways to avoid yichud issues in that situation?
My questions led me to answers which led me to no longer believing that there was any truth in OJ.
I wonder about this statement. Are you seeking complete belief and utter truth? Personally, as a fallible human, I have found that those are things I cannot find no matter how hard I try. I learned that I was looking for the wrong things.
I'm not saying OJ is right for you or for anyone in particular, but sometimes it is what we are searching for wherein the problem lies.
OTD: You wrote "I've found that the approach often switches from "we have answers to everything" to "faith is required"."
The funny thing is, this is exactly why I left Christianity -- I can't do the "faith" thing (most of the time, every now and again I think I have it, but it is fleeting...). One of the things I like about Judaism is that it is *doing* that matters...(supposedly belief follows). Doing is something I can get, something I can (usually) do.
You also wrote "I just don't feel an interest in religion, I guess I can say.
Without meaning to sound snarky -- and I don't mean to sound that way, I'm just curious: what are you doing here if you don't have an interest in religion?
E. Fink -- Will try and be in touch tomorrow.
KA,
I am seeking nothing. I am searching for nothing. What I found was the overwhelming evidence that religion is a creation of human beings and not of any divine origins. I am happy with the answers that I found. Freed me from a world where morality is defined by what people believed to be true thousands of years ago.
I am so tired of those who think of those who left OJ as a "problem." To some of us, it is those of you who keep referring to us a "problem" that creates problems that no one needs, tears apart families and splinters Jews into so many feuding tiny subdivisions.
And I am so tired of hearing that OTDers didn't find the right rabbi or ask the right questions. With the teeny tiny percentage of Orthodox Jews in the world, it is true chutpah to believe that OJ holds the monopoly on life's truth and leaving OJ is as a result, is defined as a "problem".
Because I can tell you, that those of us on the other side simply think the same of you. But somehow most of us are respectful enough not to constantly remind you of this.
KA:
There is a difference between OTD's faith answer and the christian faith answer.
In Judaism faith is often used to avoid the issue. So there is an answer and OTD was being told to have faith that there is an answer. But there are no "points" for having that faith, its just in lieu of an answer.
Whereas in Christianity your "points" come from that faith.
There is a difference right?
TO:
I can understand your frustration.
It is a longer conversation to be had...
WBS;
meeting in a public coffee shop, learning in a study hall with others present...
I am not sure what your are getting at...?
E-Fink you're a good man, with a good mind, so I wonder why you're recommending kiruv rabbis. I've known many. Almost to a man they are clowns. Their answers aren't well thought out, and often they are incorrect. The kiruv Rabbis goal is to win converts, not to spread truth. He trades on humor or emotion not facts, and not on wisdom.
KA and HSN if you want to learn, start with the archives of blogs like this one.
also if the rabbi is married (and the asker married) then there is not such a problem. . .
and I'm not saying OJ is right for you or for anyone in particular, but sometimes it is what we are searching for wherein the problem lies.
this is disturbingly true. The more i learn about anything the more i learn that there is no such thing as a pat answer to much of anything. as my chem professor said "all things being equal, this is our answer, however, things are by no means always equal"
GLASS HOUSES ALERT #2
E. Fink: I am not sure what your [SIC: you're] getting at...?
I was stone thrower this morning.
:D
my hypothesis that increasingly proves true is that the usual real reason why people go off the derech is because most orthodox jews prefer to stop growing in their conception of and relationship with g-d at the age of 3. . .
and hence, when they get a bit smarter than a 3 year old (not an easy feat) they reject it!
and if you contest that its not difficult to be smarter than a three year old, i will tell you that you've never sat down and spoken with a three year old for a couple hours. (and if you think thats not possible, thats because most adults don't take kids seriously, the kids know it and therefore will not engage adults in long conversations, because why should they waste their time with someone who doesn't take them seriously?)
NCSY Guy:
Welcome back. I hope your glass house is holding up okay.
You are right, many are clowns, but I am talking about actual Rabbis of synagogues or in institutions of higher learning.
Also, most kiruv rabbis know who to refer a good question to...
Yoni:
There is no "reason" other than people have free will and can choose whatever they want.
If leaving the fold looks more attractive than staying they will leave.
Some poignant wisdom for this discussion.
“With faith, there are no questions. Without it, there are no answers.”
- Rabbi Yisrael Meir HaKohen Kagan (Chafetz Chaim)
You are right, many are clowns, but I am talking about actual Rabbis of synagogues or in institutions of higher learning.
Almost all of them are brainwashed simpletons. Why do you think DB's Torah is so refreshing? Why don't your actual Rabbis reach his conclusions, or see what he sees? DB isn't so smart. He's actually often quite dumb. But he isn't trapped in a failed paradigm either.
E.Fink said:
I am not sure what your are getting at...?
It was a question of yichud, nothing more.
KA: >Without meaning to sound snarky -- and I don't mean to sound that way, I'm just curious: what are you doing here if you don't have an interest in religion?
I guess I meant I'm only interested in religion on my terms. Not conventional, any kind of religion, but religion if, when, and how I want it. Which is mostly never. Hey, if you want I can leave (jk).
KA, your lookin at it all wrong. You cant do all the 613 mitvot because many apply only to a Cohen or Levi, others apply to certain trades, wherein for example a farmer has to leave Peah, the corner of his field for the poor so unless you have a field you dont need to do that.
Many apply only to the Beit Hamikdash and since we have no Beit Hamikdash we cant go on Shlosh Regalim, though if we wanted to do it as a sign of community and all meet in Yerushalaim 3 times a year that would be tremendous.
The ? that you might ask and I have done so for years is why on the one hand we refer to all Machlokes as elo velo divrei elokim hachaim, and then on the other hand they say, Lo Bashamaim hee.
Ee Chachi, if so, why give any creedence to the sages pronouncements since claiming their words, at their simpllest, to be that of Hashem is immaterial and unimportant because lo bashamayim he.
In simple truth the Torah cannot be observed properly without a Beis Hamikdash and without a proper Sandhedrin of Zkainim.
You can observe Judaism all you want because that is just a band aid for us during the Galut and when the Mashiach comes I dont expect anybody to listen to any Rebbeim anymore, their ears will turn to the Sandhedrin and its rulings by the 70.
Almost all of them are brainwashed simpletons. Why do you think DB's Torah is so refreshing? Why don't your actual Rabbis reach his conclusions, or see what he sees? DB isn't so smart. He's actually often quite dumb. But he isn't trapped in a failed paradigm either.
anon | 07.07.09 - 11:19 pm | #
To me, it is not DB's Torah that is refreshing, it is more his ability to remain OJ while continously being unafraid to examine its history, its myths and criticize it from within. He also does it without ever claiming that his way of life is *the* way and is able to make his choices while fully respecting the conclusions and choices of others. Which is why he is one of the very few OJs in my life with whome I can talk freely about religion without fear of judgement or concern that he will try to change me.
And BTW, if you think that being able to do that isn't a reflection of a sophisticated way of thinking only possible for highly intelligent people, well, you just don't know much about assessment of intelligence. You may disagree with some of DB's conclusions (as I do) but dumb he is not.
Mark wrote "Some poignant wisdom for this discussion.
“With faith, there are no questions. Without it, there are no answers.”
- Rabbi Yisrael Meir HaKohen Kagan (Chafetz Chaim)
This is the kind of thing that would have me running the other way. It is not that I never have faith, it is that most of the time I doubt -- you name it, when it comes to religion, I've doubted it. If faith is a requirement of questions or answers, then this is stam not the place for me.
But I can, say, keep kosher without hurting anyone, without having to believe that it is the right way, and knowing, too, that it could be. The same goes with many other mitzvot (although I have to say, I don't think I could live without Shabbat...but even there, do I do it because G-d told us to? Sometimes, but not all the time...)
Is it so wrong to not have faith?
OTD: Hey, if you want I can leave (jk).
No, don't leave. In fact, come over for Shabbat dinner so we can all stay up late talking...
tikkunolam -- I think you're being a little apologetic and sensitive. I read your response to mine, and felt like I must have verbally attacked you, simply for questioning your questions. I certainly never called you or anyone who has left OJ a problem.
Are we not allowed to ask you questions just because I am observant and you are not? Coming from where I came from, I have no issues with people needing to find their own path. I have no problem with people, yes, even Jews, seeking something outside of Orthodoxy. (I admit, it doesn't necessarily make me happy when people leave, but it's not my happiness that is at stake!) Each of us has to be able to account for our own actions, and if OJ doesn't do it for you, then you need to find whatever does.
Well that's just it KA isn't it? The goal is happiness or rather significance,not truth. I find great personal significane in history customs community and common practices so I stay in my community with my friends and my family despite what I've come to realize. Bray finds his significance in the thought that his tiny subsect of a subsect is both best loved by God and in possesion of the complete and absolute truth to the exclusion of all other truths. This fantasy is why he resists new information and shuts his ears to the lessons of this blog. He does this not because he seeks truth but because he can't bear to lose the significance he created for himself.
Well put, DB. And you got a great big grin from me, too...
E-Fink you're a good man, with a good mind, so I wonder why you're recommending kiruv rabbis. I've known many. Almost to a man they are clowns. Their answers aren't well thought out, and often they are incorrect. The kiruv Rabbis goal is to win converts, not to spread truth. He trades on humor or emotion not facts, and not on wisdom.
NCSY Guy
NCSY, you are so correct, ever see the ads they place about their events? Come learn the secrets of Kabalah, or Relationship Secrets. The explanations they give of our faith are condecending and didactic, and on a very simplistic level which can't help but insult those of us with a higher level of intelligence.
About the only thing better in a Kiruv shul is the kiddush. Sushi, or other healthy options alongside the requisite chulent,
hmn, comments are dissapearing.
and for me? its probably the plralism that makes me most happy. chazal were not afraid of people who dissagreed with them, nor did they feel that the whole world had to be like them, and thats a real relief. . .
(modern rabbanim on the other hand...)
What I think is a real problem is that Jewish philosophy isn't really taught in the schools (at least the MO ones I'm familiar with). If it is taught, it's taught at a brain dead simplistic level. At my school, we had a 1 semester Jewish philosophy course, which looking back was a complete joke. We were taught that EVERYTHING in Judaism can be proved 100% rationally including the existence of God, proof of the Torah's validity, etc. What we got was rehashed nonsense that made very little sense.
At the very least though, you could ask questions. It was acceptable, though you'd get stock answers.
The problem is when you grow up and no longer believe the watchmaker story to prove God's existence or the wouldn't you just ask your parents or grandparents if they actually received the Torah at Har Sinai story to prove the Torah is true. At that point it's considered unacceptable to ask questions.
I think my favorite "proof" from that class is how morality would cease to exist without God. The proof was that we only follow traffic signals for two reasons: 1) fear of getting a ticket and 2) safety. Thus, if there were no cops around and no cars around there would be no reason to keep the traffic laws. A moment's reflection reveals how stupid this argument is.
KA - This is the kind of thing that would have me running the other way. It is not that I never have faith, it is that most of the time I doubt -- you name it, when it comes to religion, I've doubted it. If faith is a requirement of questions or answers, then this is stam not the place for me.
But I can, say, keep kosher without hurting anyone, without having to believe that it is the right way, and knowing, too, that it could be. The same goes with many other mitzvot (although I have to say, I don't think I could live without Shabbat...but even there, do I do it because G-d told us to? Sometimes, but not all the time...)
Is it so wrong to not have faith?
KA, I think I am reading the Chafetz Chaims quote differently than you are. I think he is implying that the complete lack of faith is bad, and that the opposite is bad. What I learn from the statement is that something in between is best. In case anyone hasn't noticed, Judaism is a religion of questions. Nearly all Jewish texts contain questions, discussions, answers, and more questions.
and in my effort to secure some regular learning I've come up...dry so far.
try this:
http://www.partnersintorah.org/
Great point. BT's are told to ask, while FFB's are expected to suck it up and obey. Two contradictory messages. Something's gotta give.
Not at all. See here:
http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2009...d-
autonomy.html
There is a constant symbiosis between rational understanding of and blind obedience to Mitzvos
Bray finds his significance in the thought that his tiny subsect of a subsect is both best loved by God and in possesion of the complete and absolute truth to the exclusion of all other truths. This fantasy is why he resists new information
Forget my tiny [subsect. What about the] People as a whole? Are they best beloved by G-d? Or is this too, a fantasy and a delusion borne of the narcicism of "small" differences? Put up or shut up.
(O and BTW it's not my tiny subsect that is best loved by God and in possesion of the complete and absolute truth. Not at all. They are, nearly to a man, a bunch of jerks despised by their fellow men and by G-d. It's me and me alone that best loved by God and in possesion of the complete and absolute truth! Just like you are convinced about yourself and your khevra [those morons] Bear-Man)
Who do I think has the whole truth? I've written many times that human intellect is incpable of apprehending "all" of anything.
I didn't pose the question about truth. I posed the question about "best beloved of G-d". Do you or don't you believe that the Jewish People as a whole are "best beloved of G-d" vis a vis the rest of humanity?
I am not one hundred percent happy with Halakhah.
A. The feeling is mutual. Halakha is'net deriving 100% stisfaction from you either 
B. Hapiness is overrated
C. On a serious note, The Khazon Ish in his critique of the Mussar movement writes that the very HARDEST good midah to acquire is הכנעה אל המשפט=sunbservience to what is just/the law. So you're hardly alone.
I don't think God "loves"
He has no emotions.
That's only one half of the theological equation. But to play your advocate I'll rephrase:
Do the Jewsih People as a whole have a qualitatively different relationship with G-d vis a vis the balance of humanity. I'll allow for a mpoment that this "realtionship" may be unilateral and unrequited.
KA,
This what I responded to:
"There is, however, a problem of Orthodox Jews going off the derekh, a problem we seem to hear about more and more these days –"
So while you may not have called me personally a "problem" you are referring to the problem of OJs going Off The Derech. OTD itself is a phrase that I find completely offensive BTW and wish people would stop using it. It assumes that there is one "derech" and we have someone wandered into never never land.
Then you wondered aloud what OffTheDerech was ever "doing here" if he isn't interested in religion. Though clearly he is interested in religion, just look at his moniker! I don't know if you are new here, but there a lots of us here that are as you like to call it, "OTD". In fact, I am a regular poster here and have been for well over a year. You can find my name right under DB's on the sidebar listing team members. I am the token atheist of the team.
As for your questions, forgive my impatience, I have just been asked them and answered them a thousand plus times. In real life and on this blog. And I wonder if I turned the tables on those who are On The Derech if they would appreciate the repeated interrogation questions of those of us who left OJ have for those still in the OJ world.
Especially for those who are saying outloud that they are doing and yet not believing. Seems to me that folks who say that should not be referring to the leaving OJ as a "problem".
To be an observant Jew, one’s purpose is to strive to observe all the mitzvot.
partially right. In this post-Khurban pre-Messianic era observance of all 613 is an impossible goal. But even for the currently applicable extant Mitzvos we can only strive through collaborative efforts. Judaism is a team sport. Hence the incredible significance of community.
Bray,
Thanks for ruining a good thread.
re G-d not loving
ב מֵרָחוֹק, יְהוָה נִרְאָה לִי; וְאַהֲבַת עוֹלָם אֲהַבְתִּיךְ, עַל-כֵּן מְשַׁכְתִּיךְ חָסֶד. 2 'From afar the LORD appeared unto me.' 'Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with affection have I drawn thee.
יט הֲבֵן יַקִּיר לִי אֶפְרַיִם, אִם יֶלֶד שַׁעֲשֻׁעִים--כִּי-מִדֵּי דַבְּרִי בּוֹ, זָכֹר אֶזְכְּרֶנּוּ עוֹד; עַל-כֵּן, הָמוּ מֵעַי לוֹ--רַחֵם אֲרַחֲמֶנּוּ, נְאֻם-יְהוָה. {ס} 19 Is Ephraim a darling son unto Me? Is he a child that is dandled? For as often as I speak of him, I do earnestly remember him still; therefore My heart yearneth for him, I will surely have compassion upon him, saith the LORD. {S}
הָלֹךְ וְקָרָאתָ בְאָזְנֵי יְרוּשָׁלִַם לֵאמֹר, כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה, זָכַרְתִּי לָךְ חֶסֶד נְעוּרַיִךְ, אַהֲבַת כְּלוּלֹתָיִךְ--לֶכְתֵּךְ אַחֲרַי בַּמִּדְבָּר, בְּאֶרֶץ לֹא זְרוּעָה. 2 Go, and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying: Thus saith the LORD: I remember for thee the affection of thy youth, the love of thine espousals; how thou wentest after Me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown.
כא וְאֵרַשְׂתִּיךְ לִי, לְעוֹלָם; וְאֵרַשְׂתִּיךְ לִי בְּצֶדֶק וּבְמִשְׁפָּט, וּבְחֶסֶד וּבְרַחֲמִים. 21 And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in justice, and in lovingkindness, and in compassion.
כב וְאֵרַשְׂתִּיךְ לִי, בֶּאֱמוּנָה; וְיָדַעַתְּ, אֶת-יְהוָה. {פ} 22 And I will betroth thee unto Me in faithfulness; and thou shalt know the LORD. {P}
JS-
What??? where???
You're iresponsible comments will get me banned again.
It's not entirely your fault, I'm just sick of the bickering between you and DB. To be fair you did start it. You guys are going back and forth on a point completely unrelated to the post.
Not true. I am quoting passages from the original post as well and responding to them.
I don't want you to be banned, you should just be more respectful on other people's threads. You want to go off and argue with DB endlessly and needlessly, do it on your thread (or his if he's amenable). This is a good post on a good subject from someone who I haven't seen post before. Stay on topic.
Not true. I am quoting passages from the original post as well and responding to them.
Yes, and that is fine.
besides threads follwing posts with 90+ comments often go off on wild tangents. At thus point it is "stream of consciousness/conversation" NOT hijacking a thread.
You're both right, but Bray has a habit of bothering everyone with pointless and self serving tangents, so I side with JS.
Bray, here's your last warning for today.
It's the bickering, not the wild tangent. People on the thread were keeping on topic and were still posting and now anyone coming back has to sort through mountains of garbage to find the last relevant comment.
It helps keep one in line. Strangely enough, that worry that someone might see you doing something that may be considered…inappropriate…can keep you from doing it.
The challenge is to "stay in line" out of fear of G-d. Bucking communal standards may be a psycho-spiritual exercise to help you achieve this. In this vein I find your wig-waring more significant than your slacks wearing.
Nevardhoker bokhurim used to make laughing stocks of themselves to strenthen their "to-hell-with-communal-standards" muscles.
To bring things back into focus, Bray, do you think there's a point in questioning? If so, do you think there are answers to all of our questions? If there are no answers (or no satisfactory ones), what should a Jew do?
TO - So while you may not have called me personally a "problem" you are referring to the problem of OJs going Off The Derech. OTD itself is a phrase that I find completely offensive BTW and wish people would stop using it. It assumes that there is one "derech" and we have someone wandered into never never land.
My best analogy for "the derech" is a very wide superhighway. You can be in the furthest right lane, or you be in the furthest left lane, or you can be somewhere in the middle (with most of the "traffic"). And, yes, you can also exit the superhighway (or crash into the shoulder) and be "off the derech". I also don't like the term very much, but until someone comes up with something better, and mostly agreed upon, we're stuck with it.
I think it's a great analogy, the folks in the left lanes are shouting at the ones in the right lanes that they are moving too slowly, and the folks in the right lanes are shouting at the ones in the left lanes that they are moving too quickly.
TO - So while you may not have called me personally a "problem" you are referring to the problem of OJs going Off The Derech. OTD itself is a phrase that I find completely offensive BTW and wish people would stop using it. It assumes that there is one "derech" and we have someone wandered into never never land.
The people "in charge" are the ones who make the label. So of course it's going to be pejorative in this case. It's meant to imply you're off the accepted path and are off in the wilderness somewhere. That's why you have "pro-life" and "pro-choice" no one wants to be branded an "anti" or a "con." Same with "non-believer" or even "atheist" both pejoratives with a negative slant, defining you by what you're not.
JS - do you think there's a point in questioning?
As I said earlier, Judaism is a religion of questioning. Every important text is made up of questions, discussions, and answers. Most Jewish blogs do exactly the same thing. Most Jewish face-to-face discussions do the same thing. Some of our most beloved customs involve questioning (de feer kashes, etc).
So, there better be a point to questioning, otherwise, Jews have pretty much all been OTD for a few millenia
To bring things back into focus, Bray, do you think there's a point in questioning?
Of course. No true understanding can be achived without being presceded by lack of understanding . As Rav Tzadok HaKohen put it יג וְרָאִיתִי אָנִי, שֶׁיֵּשׁ יִתְרוֹן לַחָכְמָה מִן-הַסִּכְלוּת--כִּיתְרוֹן הָאוֹר, מִן-הַחֹשֶׁךְ. 13
That wsidom derives from sikhlus as light emerges davka from darkness.
If so, do you think there are answers to all of our questions?
Of course not. What am I some kind of kiruv clown? There always has to be room for faith. Even for a Tadik and a Navee. The takhlis is not to understand everything. The takhlis is to achieve a sharp clarity, absent self-delusions, about PRECISELY what one odes understand and what one does not. Better to live with an honest question for decades than to force an answer.
If there are no answers (or no satisfactory ones), what should a Jew do?
Two things; A. Never give up increasing breath, depth and experiences to try and discover workable answers and simultaneosly B. Humbly bow ones head and submit to the accepted Halakha and Hashqafa.
That's for the rank and file. For sould of genius refrom or re-afrfrim as applicable (cp. Baal Shem Tov the Kotzker, Rav Yisrael Salanter, Rav Kook, The Stamar Rebbe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe eyt al).
Always remeber T.S. Elliot along with the aforementioned Chofetz Chaim
sould=souls
There always has to be room for faith. Even for a Tadik and a Navee.
See, I never understood this. How could a navi not KNOW. Especially as most nevi'im are given a sign/miracle to confirm they're not going completely loony and that this is the real deal.
What do you think G-d meant when he told Moshe- the clearest of all clear-seeing prophets,
kee lo yirahnee HaAhdam v'kai?
This, in reponse to Moshe's paryer that G-d show him His "glory"
Two things; A. Never give up increasing breath, depth and experiences to try and discover workable answers and simultaneosly B. Humbly bow ones head and submit to the accepted Halakha and Hashqafa.
I agree with A. I'm not sure B works outside of the chareidi world (or at least it doesn't work as well). I think Chareidim are more willing to accept the irrational and be more transcendental than say, a MO who (I hate to say it) has less havdala consciousness (as you would put it) and views Torah and Science (for example) as being subject to the same level of proof.
As TO said above:
My questions led me to answers which led me to no longer believing that there was any truth in OJ. So while I don't think even my parents would have it any other way, there is a price to OJ when they allow open communication and questioning. I am an example of such a "problem".
>Always remeber T.S. Elliot
Whoops...I meant Tennyson
There lives more faith in honest doubt,
Believe me,
than in half the creeds.
http://www.quotationspage.com/qu...uote/
31344.html
kee lo yirahnee HaAhdam v'kai?
This, in reponse to Moshe's paryer that G-d show him His "glory"
I interpret it as most commentaries do: Moshe wanted to understand why bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. God said this is impossible.
But, this isn't an article of faith. It's a desire to more fully understand. A navi knows without a doubt that God is real and his commandments are real.
I said doubt. TO no longer doubts. She is sure. She is an atheist, not an agnostic.
Not at all. We don't "know" a good G-d, a kind and merciful One, until we have this answer. It is very much an article of faith.
This is the dichotomy and lack of ceratinty we express every time we shout the creed (Qriyas Shema..see Rashi ad locum)
Moshe's problem was, so tp speak, he could not believ his own prophetic eyes.
TO was an example. For example, a person may say "I am 90% sure of my religion and I can live with 10% doubt of God's existence and the truthfulness of this religion, so I will be a practicing OJ."
On the other hand, another person may say "I am 90% there is no God and I can live with the 10% chance there is a God and He wants me to be OJ, so I will be an atheist/agnostic and not practice."
Both have doubt, both view their doubt the same way.
But once you know enough to “fit in” to a community, you are (silently) required to do just that: fit in. Do not rock the boat.
Is that it? Or might it perhaps be the communities assumption/expectation that the BT has progressed to the point that the earlier questions have been answered and that , by now, the questions should be more advanced?
I don't see how a question about God's existence or the validity of the Torah or the reason for a mitzvah is not "advanced."
However, I think you are correct that these questions are viewed as simplistic and not worth thinking about and certainly not worthy of a drasha from the rabbi.
I find that the more to the right or more frum you become (not necessarily the same thing) the less acceptable it is to ask fundamental questions and the more acceptable it is to ask stupid, pointless, pedantic questions about a kasha and rav yossi in bava kama based on a raavid in beitza. if you ask the former, you're an ignoramus, if you ask the latter, you're a genius.
your charachterization of the latter is, itself [xx] and [xx] though hardly pedantic.
It is a direct outgroeth of your equating Torah with other disciplines...or not.
However, I think you are correct that these questions are viewed as simplistic
Not simpistic. Basic...staring point questions.
Without firm belief in both G-d as Creator and as Legislator it is doubtful that the "segulah" dynmic of Mitzvos to sanctify the Mitzvah performer kicks in.
Absent this sanctification process deeper understanding of Torah and Mitzvos is impeded.
Like I said... just because one nelieves in the basics, firmly, doesn't mean that A. One won't have continuing questions to grapple with and B. That one might not occasionally backslide and begin to doubt the basics.
Rav Dessler's doctrine of bekhira points applies to emunos v'deos as it does to khovos haEvarim.
Oh come on. People focus pedantic nonsense like "a kasha on rav yossi in bava kama based on a raavid in beitza" because it's easier to think about, isn't "dangerous," likely has an answer, and because he gets to look like some kinda genius with his s'vara. Anyone who seriously thinks about God's existence or why He commanded a certain mitzvah or if the mitzvah is "right" is a kofer and is chased out of shul/beit medrash.
the "pedantic nonsense" is
חקר רצונו יתברך= investigating His will and being a pedant when researching Infinite wisdom is good form.
Our aversion to minutae and pedantism derives from our awareness of human imperfection fallability and finitude. Whay sweat the details, the thinking goes, when folks rarely get things exactly right anyways? Better to focus on ht "big picture".
None of these apply to G-d, nor to His work, the Torah.
You know, I may agree with you when it comes to figuring out a medrash or a rishon on tanach. But, even then you're just figuring out what a rishon or author of a midrash thought about a particular verse in Tanach.
But, when you start getting into an argument between an acharon and a rishon on a tosafot which is about a rashi which is on a section of gemara that is never sourced in halacha - then I think you're just engaging in mental gymnastics.
Besides, you never addressed my point that if you sat in a beit medrash and wondered aloud how tefilah works if God is unchanging or asked questions like DB is asking about Chukat that you would be thrown out on your butt.
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my post.
Quite often these mitzvot are things ones has in fact been doing, and knows the regular explanations why one should do them. But that doesn't mean one cannot grow to doubt their relevance/meaning/point.
So while the fundamental question might be, in fact, simple, I don't think the answer -- you know, that "status-quo" kind of answer -- is going to satisfy anyone. Which is why there needs to be a place for safe, open dialogue.
Because the party line answer just isn't going to do it.
You were clear. Way too clear. Did you see my Rav Chaim post?
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