Complaint #1: It's "bated" breath, not "baited" breath. That would be how my cat's mouth smells.
Complaint #2: "Religo-feminists"?? Honestly, Chaim, we need to work on your attack labels. This one does not roll easily off the tongue.
Complaint #3: Goyishe "esthetics"? (Not even the spelling here, just the concept). What the heck does that mean? Martha Stewart is out, but Ralph Lauren and Calvin Klein are in?
onah
but chaim G, its halachicaly mandatory to be a feminist in order to properly fulfil the precept of making your wife happy. (which is midoraisa btw.)
Religo-feminists"??
Yeah, this was idiotic. Women have rights. The halacha says they can do stuff. So why keep them out? For auld lang syn? That sucks.
maybe religo-feminists are those with the radical notions that not only are women people, but Hashem is not male... 
Or, to put it another way, the radical notion that Jewish women are Jews.
tzip, what do you think of my link?
I think you should go back to Torah study and stop surfing the net.
Do I have to?
Aint Love of Klal Yisrael Grand?
How utterly disappointing. There is nothing here to which I can vociferously object. And other than the terms religio-feminist, naught that I can besmear with snark.
I must admit that I find the two sets of tfilin to be somewhat absurd - either type Rashi is it, or type Rabbeinu Tam is it, neither is objectionable, and both of them fullfill the mitzvah. So wearing both at the same time is gilding the lily, allayouz in AmYitHarYag, stop it.
A gittn shabbes, y'all.
Above was I. Sorry. Committed a ChaimTKDBism there by not changing my handle back.
Is anyone interested in also making peace with Halakhic Conservative Jews. (i.e. Jews who consider Halakha binding but understand more inherent flexibility in the system than Orthodox Jews do). I mean, Samson Raphael Hirsch was originally a member of the Reform movement. Conservative Judaism in its essence is Judaism that believes in "Tradition and Change", where change can be socially moderated by within the daled amot of Halakha (as understood by Conservative Halakhacists and Talmudists). You may disagree with their understanding of how Halakha works, but you also disagree with people to the right of you, no?
Catch you all after Havdala, and after you're all properly havdala sensitized!
Gut Shabbos to all of K'lal Yisroel
Chaim, Chaim ... whatever are we going to do with you?
Here's a one size fits all suggestion. How about not worrying about what the neighbors think, ignoring the narish chumras your rabbi spouts and use what you were born with, your brain, to be as Jewish as YOU wish. In a perfect world, the only instructions needed from gedolim would be to use seychel in everything you do.
Great post Chaim, left wing yeshivish gave me a chill, it was spot on!
I made a few changes. XD
Modern Orthodox: [Teaneck, Brooklyn Young Israel, and Much of YU]
Stop: Looking to Charedim for approval. You are not going to get approval from charedim any more then you will get approval from Hamas.
Start: Mocking charedim for discouraging as much socialization as possible between guys and girls.
Continue: Going to college.
RW Yeshivish Orthodox [Lakewood, Bensonhurst, Flatbush, South Fallsburg]
Stop: Tolerating youth that smokes, never exercises and is as skeptical and dismissive of all but a few of their “anointed” TKs (e.g. AJ Soloveithcik and Rav Ela Ber) as the most egregious of old time Maskilim were of ALL TKs without exception. Stop spitting on secular studies.
Start: Preparing your children to date for middos Tovos, and even beauty and not exclusively for money in the bank.
Continue: Emphasizing the centrality of the torah.
I just made the change for the fun of it lol, I'm not even sure I believe torah min sinai XD
Complaint #1: It's "bated" breath, not "baited" breath. That would be how my cat's mouth smells.
Bear how many times have I told you to stop messing with my spelling when I guest post?
Complaint #2: "Religo-feminists"?? Honestly, Chaim, we need to work on your attack labels. This one does not roll easily off the tongue.
You prefer maybe Feminazis?
gilding the lily, allayouz in AmYitHarYag, stop it.
I don't know what this: "gilding the lily, allayouz in AmYitHarYag," means?
As a BT, I'd like to chime in:
Before becoming religious it was all so simple: You guys wear kippot, keep kosher, keep shabbat, and keep the holidays. I don't. If you wear those funny sidelocks, it means you're a chasid.
Now, that I'm more familiar, it's so confusing: Right wing this, left wing that, mid center this, ultra-right that. How did American politics become the source for naming groups of Jews?
As a side note, it really annoys me to see people using 'kh' to transliterate a chet. It should only be used to transliterate a khaf to show that it is the dagesh-less (and therefore fricative) version of kaf, which is transliterated 'k'.
You forgot a category:
Practicing Blogodox
Stop: Tearing down every Jew who doesn't exactly conform to your ideals while hiding behind your alleged (yet anonymous) piety.
Start: Reaching out to people in a meaningful fashion, by bringing them into your lives and homes, instead of just your Haloscan comment section.
Continue: Asking hard questions, not letting people/leaders/rabbis get away with saying and doing nonsense because they think no one will notice, and caring so much about your Yiddishkiet that you feel the need write about it at every possible moment.
Chaim, where would you suggest the unaffiliated of chassidic ancestry turn to? He's not going to be accepted, nor will he fit in at the established courts, whereas the rebbelah fills that need. Granted the majority atendees are drop outs, but there are many (vielopol, veretzki) that fill that need. And provide an anchor for these third and forth generation decendants od chassidim. Would it not be for the rebbelahs, these people would very likely have left the fold. They have no place amongst the chassidim, and the rebbelah gives the a place where they can fit in and feel comfortable.
Brilliant piece - it's not so much that the women are becoming rabbis but that they're becoming bad ones
kol hakavod for calling it as it is
Yekkes (Washington Heights
Look! He mentioned us! (even though we were not in DovBear's original list.)
The LW Hasidim who practice the religion of Heimishkeit are the bane of Judaism. Cast them out, and they can take their pompous, self important, lazy rebellahs with them.
And they shouldnt forget their cholent, shul tables, late minyanim, SUVs,and and mini skirt wearing wives either. Those LW Hasidic freaks are basicly MOs in gartles only they're extra smug and less knowledgable.
I hate them.
And they shouldnt forget their cholent, shul tables, late minyanim, SUVs,and and mini skirt wearing wives either.
It's really charming that you exclude women from your definition of the community, by saying that the LW Chasidim have "mini skirt wearing wives", as opposed to saying that LW Chasidim wear miniskirts.
Just charming.
Sort of like saying "humans are the only animals whose wives suckle their young for two years".
"humans are the only animals whose wives suckle their young for two years"
Well why isn't this true? men are animals, and women are people. Is this such a chiddush to you?
Could Chaim G take over the blog? Great post!
" "humans are the only animals whose wives suckle their young for two years"
Ever hear of elephants?
" "humans are the only animals whose wives suckle their young for two years"
Ever hear of elephants?"
People used to nurse their children for 4-5 years.
Well why isn't this true? men are animals, and women are people. Is this such a chiddush to you?
Narishkeit.
Chaim, where would you suggest the unaffiliated of chassidic ancestry turn to
A) Most of the Yeshivisha Velt are composed of Tinokos shenishbu l'bein Halitoim i.e. children and grandchildren of Polish, Galitzianer and Hungarian Shearis HaPlayta-niks. The kill rate in Liteh was 95% and the vast majority of those whio feel a Litvish/misnagdish orientation today are not descended from Lithuanian, Latvian or Byellorussian Jewry.
He's not going to be accepted, nor will he fit in at the established courts,
B) The Kotzker Rebbe's father was a misnagid. When asked how he could "travel" to the Rebbe Reb Binim in Przsyscha he responded " First the pasuk says 'Zeh Kailee v'Anvayhu'= This is my L-rd and I will beautify Him. Only afterwards does it say 'Elokay Avee V'aromimenhu'= Thr L-rd of my father and I will exalt Him. A person must first find his own unique path to G-d. Only afterwards should he incorporate the appropriate elements of his father's approach."
The ethnic stock of Belz and Square today is mostly Hungarian wheras, historically it was Galitzianer and Byellorussian respectively. In Ger you will find folks who's ancestors were Radomsker, Sokolover, Sokhatchover and even Alexander (Ger's pre-war #1 rival). Point being that after the war when their parents and grandparents civilizations and Morei derekh were destroyed, people found their way with something similar and/or trailblazed new paths.
That, IMO, is what the unaffiliated of Chasidic ancestry ought to do instead of doing a poor imitation of "Toita"=Dead Khasidim (AKA Breslovers) absent the rich literature and 2 century old technique of navigating without the help of a living Rebbe.
Look! He mentioned us! (even though we were not in DovBear's original list.)
He did worse then not mention us... he made one subgroup of yekkes (Bruers) synonymous with all yekkes.
In fact, once upon a time in WH ... as late as the 1970's... Bruers was one Orthodox shul among many other big shuls. I know of at least one that was larger then Bruers (but now can barely make minyan). Today, nearly all other yekke's are indeed subject of intra-Jewish assimilation.
Ever hear of elephants?
Um, I was mentioning the sentence "humans are the only animals whose wives suckle their young for two years" as a sample thing that someone might say, not as a statement of fact.
Use-Mention Distinction
As a side note, it really annoys me to see people using 'kh' to transliterate a chet.
YoKHanan-
You wouldn't happen to be a Yekke would you? 
I know of at least one that was larger then Bruers (but now can barely make minyan).
Which shul was that? I'm really curious.
he made one subgroup of yekkes (Bruers) synonymous with all yekkes.
But how would you describe the qualities of these other Yekkes, with whom you say you used to have contact, before they assimilated themselves into disappearance?
I must admit that I find the two sets of tfilin to be somewhat absurd - either type Rashi is it, or type Rabbeinu Tam is it, .
B.O.T.H./Ben Zoma-Main Tyaereh Shaigatz,
I want to say this as affectionately as possible: Goyisher Kop!. The whole genius of being Jewish and the last hope of pan-Jewish reconciliation is Holy cognitive dissonance i.e. the capacity to entertain two mutually exclusive concepts simultaneously.
This is what allows Jews to proceed with their bekhira =free choice in spite of yediyah = G-d's foreknowledge. To worship a benevolent Creator in spite of theodicy. To believe in Bereshis but see an old world all around us. To study the opinions of Shamai and Hillel, Abayeh and Rova, The Ba'al haTanya and the Gaon, and (it is hoped eventually) Rav Kook and the Satmar Rebbe, with equal zest and curiosity. It's what we call elu v'elu divrei Elokim Khaim/i="These and those are the words of the living G-d".
Rav Hutner z"l used to say that besides the halakhic lessons vis a vis T'filin size and placement of the gemara that says "yesh makom b'rosh l'haneeyakh shnei t'filin= there is space enough on the head to lay two t'filin," the homiletic/symbolic lesson is that a Yiddisher kop/mind is broad enough to absorb and contain two mutually exclusive shittos /concepts.
Absent this spiritual/intellectual capacity no amount of well-meaning blogging by me DovBear or anyone else, no amount of Agudah or other big-Tent Judaism intra-Jewish ecumenism organizations will be able to achieve the dream of pan-Jewish unity/rapproachment.
This is the basic foundation of an "I'm OK you're OK sensibility" that allows people to stay passionate about their own approach while respecting the diverse approaces of others.
I wasn't criticizing the Halakhic non-sequitor of wearing two t'filin at once. I was criticizing the ostentatious showy piety of it. I wouldn't begrudge Khakham Ovadya or other sefardic TKs and bnei Aliyah doing it, but when the masses do it it then becomes as devalued by inflation as the ashkenazi Shtreimel has become.
SDR-
I am touched and getting all farklempt.
In point of fact I've been attempting a bloddless coup detat of this blog for more than a year now.
SHKOYAKH!
Fatso, you're not smart enough to blog.
It's really charming that you exclude women from your definition of the community, by saying that the LW Chasidim have "mini skirt wearing wives", as opposed to saying that LW Chasidim wear miniskirts.
Right on my holy brother. Those shteible slobs have set Judaism back by 100 years. Bet Fat Bray is a member of their club.
Sasregan..."The LW Hasidim who practice the religion of Heimishkeit are the bane of Judaism. Cast them out, and they can take their pompous, self important, lazy rebellahs with them."
Wow... haven't heard that sort of invective in a while. It's almost like last year where the marginalized other of choice was YCT.
I hear 2 complaints, one against conspicuous consumption and the other against nouveau riche( ChaimB.) I feel you can't become old money unless at some point you were new money. Even this crowd is on a learning curve, and will pick up the trick of shabby chic once they settle in and become more confident.I feel the existence of rich, frum , heimish Jews is just great. There is no reason why the ascetism and poverty of Lithuania and environs must be the norm.
Why can't frum people travel in high style, have kosher meals parachuted onto Machu Pichu, go on safari and buy haute couture? Why is diversity so threatening?
No one ever discusses the issues of class in the Marxist sense, rich vs.poor, the hatred of the filthy rich by the very rich...but it is an important theme worth bringing out into the open.
As satire I thought all the contributions, especially ChaimG's were very good...but satire is only the first word on a topic.
Hi Dov Bear,
I apologize for being off topic.
Did you see this new article in haaretz?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spa...ges/
915215.html
5 Haredi men beat woman who refused to move to back of bus
By Jonathan Lis, Haaretz Correspondent
Five assailants believed to be Ultra-Orthodox Jews assaulted a woman and an Israel Defense Forces soldier Sunday for sitting next to each other on a bus bound for Beit Shemesh, near Jerusalem.
The incident began when the five men asked the religious woman to move to the back of the bus to prevent males and females from sitting together in public. When she refused, they beat her and the male soldier who sat next to her.
Police forces that arrived at the scene to arrest the men were attacked by dozens of ultra-Orthodox men who punctured the tires of their vehicles, allowing the assailants to escape. No one was hurt in the incident.
The ultra-Orthodox community in Beit Shemesh has been at odds with Egged over their demands that the bus company operates so-called "kosher" lines where woman and men are seated seperately.
In 2006 dozens of Haredi protestors took to the streets, hurling stones and eggs to demonstrate against the bus company. In one incident, a bus driver who was attacked fired his handgun in the air to fend off his assailants.
Fatso, you're not smart enough to blog.
Nor slim enough.
Bet Fat Bray is a member of their club.
Did you read the post? Kindly review what I wrote under the heading:
"Soft-Core Hasidic [Anywhere there's a rebbelah with a shteible]"
the other against nouveau riche( ChaimB.)
I think you misread me. I said that certain groups are the religious/spiritual EQUIVALENT of the nouveau riche. I don't begrudge them fine large homes and late model cars, I just think that the wearing of ones frumkeit on one's sleeve is the antithesis of v'hatzneah lekhes im Elokekha
How about: Stop beating people up on the bus?!
Woman and Soldier beaten by alleged Chareidim on Beit Shemesh bus today (since the woman wasn't sitting in the back of the bus)
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//1184083
jameel, you kind of missed the bus.
(I rather liked the suggestion that they place victoria secret ads on the bus, although I rather doubt that those who would avoid the ads are the same kind of cheredim who would beat up innocent women.)
Hi, I'm LW Chaisidc, therefore I don't give two hoots about Israel, and would prefer to talk about how Heimish I am feeling. Hang on while I tighten my gartle.
YoKHanan-
You wouldn't happen to be a Yekke would you?
No, I'm a linguist.
qwerty,
If you are going to insult people, at least be intelligent about it. Your insults are operating at the level of a toddler.
Please shift all discussions about the bus attack to the new post DovBear posted above this one.
You wouldn't happen to be a Yekke would you?
No, I'm a linguist.
One does not preclude the other.
sasregen
Is that meant to be an anagram of "sargenes", the Yekkishe term for a kittel? The gartel line would then make a lot of sense.
I DID NOT WRITE THIS. CHAIM G. DID. COMPLAIN TO HIM -- DB
You repeat this disclaimer twice. Very paranoid of you.
Other than my critique of the two MOs is there anything else that I wrote in this meme that you so desperately want to disassociate yourself from?
Just curious.
what about for skeptics?
Fatso, you're not smart enough to blog.
qwerty
qwerty - you're not smart enough to come up with a blog name that's more than a truncated row of keyboard letters
what about for skeptics?
Let's renew our dialouge
LW Hasidim?
What the heck is that?
LW Hasidim: Children, or more likely grandchildren, of hard-core shtreimal wearers who mostly live, dress, and act like the Modern Orthodox, but imagine themselves superior because they wear gartles, use the hasidic pronunciations, and are careful to eat cholent on shabbos AND thursday night. They daven in shteibles, with rebbalahs, who they openly disrespect, and apply the "heimish" test to everything, ie: I'm not sure about that wall paper pattern. It doesn't seem heimish. Or, I'd like my kid to go to a school where he might actually learn something, but I can't send him there b/ it isn't heimish.
what about for skeptics?
LF I am pleasantly surprised but quizzical that skeptics would even want to be part of the pan-Jewish reconciliation.
I would've thought that the diverse camps of ma'aminim described in my meme are all IYO various gradations of dullards, charlatans and/or superstitious irrational madmen/women.
I woudld've thought tha tthe skeptics would like to widen ht egulf between themselves and the credulous fools.
The oilim has to admit that for the graveyard timeslot in which this meme was posted (short fall Friday late afternoon!)the volume of comments has been very robust.
Let's keep it going today!
"creating Shul environments that make others intensely uncomfortable."
Examples, please?
"Kowtowing to the radical Religo-feminists"
Ditto.
make others intensely uncomfortable."
Theatre in the rounds, minimal or nonexistent Mekhitzas demarking ezras nashims housing women dressed in ways that make the recitation of Sh'ma a halakhically questionable undertaking. Kiddush clubs where, quite apart from the alchohol issue, disrespect for Torah and it's expositors is institutionalized. Mishebayrakhs for IDF is fine (but IMO should be coupled with a mishebeyrakh for Avrakhei Kollel and Tashbar) but Mishebayrakhs for the State have always rankled anyone not subscribing to Mafdal ideology and, in the wake of Oslo, many who do. Mishebayrakhs for the Prez and vice prez cause discomfort to all but those who still think that they're living in Czarist Russia. Being too kiddy-friendly. Davening is serious business it should not incorporate anything cutsie or Sesame-Street like. I could quibble about some of the nigunim and high pomp and ceremony (OK for Yekkes but vaguely Harry-ish for all others)but I recognize that that's a very subjective thing.
"Kowtowing to the radical Religo-feminists"
Womens hakafos, womens minyanim, female rabbinic interns/Rabbis straddling the Mekhitza by Hotza'ah v'Hakhnasa. Bat Mitzvah Girls darshining for mixed groups , Shalom/Shabbat Bat ceremonies etc.
"minimal or nonexistent Mekhitzas"
Ten tefachim is the normative halachah. All the shuls in my nbhd have mechitzahs at least that high.
"Kiddush clubs where, quite apart from the alchohol issue, disrespect for Torah and it's expositors is institutionalized."
Two of the six shuls in my nbhd have banned alcohol from shul events.
"Mishebayrakhs for IDF is fine (but IMO should be coupled with a mishebeyrakh for Avrakhei Kollel and Tashbar)"
They aren't putting their lives on the line.
" but Mishebayrakhs for the State have always rankled anyone not subscribing to Mafdal ideology and, in the wake of Oslo, many who do."
The only thing that should be objectionable is the "reshit semichat geulateinu". (I don't say it; the rabbi to whom I address most of my shilas says the Rov Solovetichik didn't like it.)
But regarding the rest of the prayer, we were willing to offer korbanot for Caligula; kol v'chomer a prayer for a government that defends Jewish lives and supports torah learning.
"Mishebayrakhs for the Prez and vice prez cause discomfort to all but those who still think that they're living in Czarist Russia."
See above re: Caligula. And as anyone on this blog knows, I'm not a fan of Bush and Cheney.
"Being too kiddy-friendly"
They are our future. But in any case all the medium to large shuls in my nbhd have youth groups for the kids on Shabat morning.
"Davening is serious business it should not incorporate anything cutsie or Sesame-Street like."
I agree; there is far too much talking in most shuls and that applies to every kind of shul I've ever visited. But there is plenty of room for every style from classic chazanut to nearly silent yeshivish to Carlebach nigunim (my favorite).
"Womens hakafos,"
What's the issur? The overwhelming halachic consensus is that there is no prohibition against women handling a sefer torah.
"womens minyanim,"
There are no such minyanim, at least for tefillah. I prefer you are referring to women's tefillah groups. There might be a decent public policy argument against them, but the strictly halachic argument against them is quite unconvincing.
(Women can certainly read the megillah for each other.)
" female rabbinic interns/Rabbis "
Again, what is the issur? Nobody has real semichah today, so "rabbi" is not really a halachic term.
" Bat Mitzvah Girls darshining for mixed groups"
Again, what is the issur?
This past Shabat I heard shiurim by three young women who are students in the YU Graduate Program in Advanced Talmudic Studies; they were visiting as part of a Shabbaton. These women are far beyond bat mitzvah! I hope they return often.
" , Shalom/Shabbat Bat ceremonies etc."
Again, what is the issur?
Theatre in the rounds,
Don't be a putz. Tamm vrayach
minimal or nonexistent Mekhitzas
Ok
women dressed in ways that make the recitation of Sh'ma a halakhically questionable undertaking.
So do like every great Rabbi suggests: Shut your eyes (and your mouth)
Kiddush clubs where, quite apart from the alchohol issue, disrespect for Torah and it's expositors is institutionalized.
More common in shteibles
Mishebayrakhs for IDF is fine
Thank GOD you said it was fine. I mean PHEW.
(but IMO should be coupled with a mishebeyrakh for Avrakhei Kollel and Tashbar)
Shut up
but Mishebayrakhs for the State have always rankled anyone not subscribing to Mafdal ideology and, in the wake of Oslo, many who do.
Boo hoo
Mishebayrakhs for the Prez and vice prez cause discomfort to all but those who still think that they're living in Czarist Russia.
Its bferush a halcha to pray for your govt.
Being too kiddy-friendly.
Shut up
Davening is serious business it should not incorporate anything cutsie or Sesame-Street like.
Yeah, letting the kids run around non stop like they do in shteibles is so much more preferable.
I could quibble about some of the nigunim and high pomp and ceremony (OK for Yekkes but vaguely Harry-ish for all others)but I recognize that that's a very subjective thing.
Everything on your list is subjective.
Womens hakafos,
Mutar
womens minyanim
Mutar
, female rabbinic interns/
Mutar
Rabbis straddling the Mekhitza by Hotza'ah v'Hakhnasa.
mutar
Bat Mitzvah Girls darshining for mixed groups
Shalom/Shabbat Bat ceremonies etc.
mutar.
Why should people be prevented from doing mutar things? Because it gives you the creeps? A tish with all that grabbing gives ME the creeps. So does the sloppy seating in a shteible. Get over yourself. If its mutar, its mutar.
Wheras everything on yours is empirical and objective.
Charlie-
It is precisely the "what's the issur" sensibility that makes others more uncomfortable.
The companion question is "Why the innovation?" or, to be more incisive, "What's motivating the innovation?"
Check with a competent posek before pronouncing everything mutar. I think that you err on a few of them.
Also, why should I have to close my eyes? I'm (a guest) in (your)Shul. This isn't a question of bypassing reading blogs and posts that one finds offensive.
Yeah, letting the kids run around non stop like they do in shteibles is so much more preferable
Can't there be a healthy medium? The Gerrer Bais Midrosh in Yerushalayim has had youth groups during davening for over three decades (maybe more). But you won't find them putting up a squeaky voiced 7 year old to sing anim z'miros. Nor interruptong the solemnity of a Khuppah with a bunch of babies marching down to "it's a small world after all"
Its bferush a halcha to pray for your govt.
IIRC you yourself posted railing against this about two months ago.
(but IMO should be coupled with a mishebeyrakh for Avrakhei Kollel and Tashbar)
Shut up
MAKE ME!!! Ban me! Moderate me!!!
At least Charlie had the class to tell me why he thinks this suggestion is wrongheaded, you OTOH, shout me down like a brute.
"I think that you err on a few of them."
Specifics, please?
"Why the innovation?"
Actually not all of these things are innovations; it is clear that low mechitzahs were the minhag in most O shuls in America that did not have balconies until recently.
BTW I agree with you regarding kiddush clubs.
"why he thinks this suggestion is wrongheaded"
Isn't the first Yekum Purkan a prayer for our sages and students? In one newly "Reformed" synagogue in New York in the mid 19th century; it was the very first thing they deleted from the service.
Mekhitza-you maintain that they are all Halakhic wheras Dov concedes this point.
Womens Hakafos and Mekhitza straddling- I admit a lack of certainty about this but IIRC it is ossur for a nidah to touch/handle a Sefer Torah.
You know if I were S'fardic & rich enough to maintain them all I could keep a mormonesque "Big love" harem of 100+ K'suva holding/ taharas HaMishpakha observant wives and it would be mutar. As long as everything was kosher (not even glatt for Askenazim) I could eat 12 lavish meals a day and it would be mutar. I could be earning 12 billion dollars a year and donating precisely 10% to T'zdakah and not paying more for my Mitzvah implements than the bare bones minimum requirement of Halakha and it would be mutar. It's all mutar but the picture it paints is of a pretty low person. Halakha observant but not informed by Qedusha.
In fact the first two examples are not mine. The Ramban at the beginning of Parshas Q'doshim labels such a person a naval b'rshus HaTorah
gilding the lily, allayouz in AmYitHarYag, stop it.
I don't know what this: "gilding the lily, allayouz in AmYitHarYag," means?
Gilding the lily = Adding to a mitzvah.
Allayouz = All of you.
AmYitHarYag = The concept-collective that is the 'Amnon Yitzchaki-Harav Yagen-niks'.
must admit that I find the two sets of tfilin to be somewhat absurd - either type Rashi is it, or type Rabbeinu Tam is it, .
B.O.T.H./Ben Zoma-Main Tyaereh Shaigatz,
I want to say this as affectionately as possible: Goyisher Kop!. The whole genius of being Jewish and the last hope of pan-Jewish reconciliation is Holy cognitive dissonance i.e. the capacity to entertain two mutually exclusive concepts simultaneously.
Hee hee hee. Veis ich, veis ich. But, errrm, you do know that vaad ha-etcetera will disagree?
...To believe in Bereshis but see an old world all around us.
I wasn't criticizing the Halakhic non-sequitor of wearing two t'filin at once. I was criticizing the ostentatious showy piety of it.
In one sense, both tfillin and tallisim are public announcements of a private state. Both are also tools for that state. Does one really need two screwdrivers for one screw? By using two, if you'll pardon the humour, one is really showing everyone else that 'I'm screwier than you'.
You're either spiritually apart, or you're not. You're not twice as apart. It's not like being drunk.
It's really charming that you exclude women from your definition of the community, by saying that the LW Chasidim have "mini skirt wearing wives", as opposed to saying that LW Chasidim wear miniskirts.
Right on my holy brother. Those shteible slobs have set Judaism back by 100 years. Bet Fat Bray is a member of their club.
qwerty | 10.21.07 - 12:31 pm | #
By excluding mini-skirts from shteiblach? Qwerty, surely you jest?!?!
Urrrrk and feh!
Were I a shteibel-basucher, I would much prefer slobs to mini-skirts. Echt. The slob says "I didn't have time to clean up, I am sorry, I rushed to attend". The mini-skirter says "I have utterly NO respect for the place, the people, or the event, and I insist on being my own trollopy individualistic self no matter how inappropriate it might be".
Frankly, a mini-skirt on anything other than a curvacious teenager is just wrong. Utterly and completely wrong.
Just as wrong as a curvacious teenager would be in, merely as an example, a shteibel.
Thee's a time an a place for mini-skirt-wearing curvacious teenagers........ I would suggest the Montgomery Street corridor near Bush Street on a sunny afternoon.
Preferably when I'm on my lunch-break.
it is clear that low mechitzahs were the minhag in most O shuls in America that did not have balconies until recently.
I'l concede the historicity of this as well as balconies with no mekhitzas at all. In fact this may have been the historical norm in many parts of Europe, however IMO it was all predicated on women dressing in accordance with halakhic requirements. In the age of low necklines, high hemlines, and/or exposed hair shouldn't all bets be off?
Shkoyakh BOTH
I knew I could trust you to take it like a man.
Check with a competent posek before pronouncing everything mutar. I think that you err on a few of them.
I don't. They are ALL mutar.
But you won't find them putting up a squeaky voiced 7 year old to sing anim z'miros. Nor interruptong the solemnity of a Khuppah with a bunch of babies marching down to "it's a small world after all"
Taam v'reyach (and you WILL find them swaying like muppets to a tune originally written as a drinking song)
The companion question is "Why the innovation?" or, to be more incisive, "What's motivating the innovation?"
WHO CARES!?!?!?!??!?!
This is the most infuriating thing about ahistorical jerks like Bray. They imagine all the invention and inovation PRIOR to about 1950 was blessed by God, but afterwards everything must be frozen in the amber.
Pure idiocy.
Womens Hakafos and Mekhitza straddling- I admit a lack of certainty about this but IIRC it is ossur for a nidah to touch/handle a Sefer Torah.
Youre wrong.
yet bray, firstly you can't just forbid what torah does not forbid. Don't you say "Chaddash assur min hatorah"? That means, amoung other things insisting on it not happening is assur, because there is no halacha that prohibits it.
secondly, what on earth do the two have even remotely in common?
Secondly the halacha clearly states that there is no concern what so ever with regards to a niddah touching a sefer, even a sefer torah. Part of this is probably because everything is tumei now, and you CAN"T make a sefer torah more tummei than it already is, because they're all tummei with the most severe of the forms of tummah, which even if there is such a halacha in the rambam (which there might be), it is effectively moot because we don't keep those halachot anymore. Even with regards to the rachok restrictions in niddah we don't keep those because he might become tummei, we keep them lest they sleep together!
and percisely what is motivating the desire to do this for the women? Because it makes them happy. They wish to show their love for the torah, and this makes them happy so why not? Most people don't do so out of a desire to stick it to the men or anything like that.
Prohibiting it makes no sense whatsoever, unless of course your paranoid of women and insecure.
and bray, as far as I undertand, the halacha about a machitza in shul (which is not in the shulchan aruch that I can find, or at least not in shulchan aruch harav) is derived from a nobrainer that since you cannot daven in the presence of erva, and since women come to shul and you have no control over what they wear, then therefore there is a necessity to have a machitzah, as is required in your home if there is erva present.
This keeps you safe. However, it would seem (and I haven't seen the laws on machitzah because I cannot seem to find them anywhere, or at least not ones relating to a shul) that at least theoreticaly as long as the women are dressed tzniusly, I'm not even sure that there is a need for a machitzah (which would explain why the bais hamikdash did not origionaly have a machitzah, as is exemplified in the mishkan at shilo with channah.) at all.
WHO CARES!?!?!?!??!?!
I do. IMO it has little or nothing to do with genuine religious sentiment and/or spiritual striving and much to do with destroying a hierarchal strucure and further eroding the metaphysical mekhitzah between the genders to the detriment of both genders.
Maybe that's why you're so fond of it.
is derived from a nobrainer that since you cannot daven in the presence of erva,
Both ahistorical and aHalakhic.
Both ahistorical and aHalakhic.
then tell me, where is the halacha codified? The halachos of shomenei esrei and shema (both of which are the same in this regard) both say that one may daven in the presence of women if they are tzniusly dressed, so what then is your taina?
I do. IMO it has little or nothing to do with genuine religious sentiment and/or spiritual striving and much to do with destroying a hierarchal strucure and further eroding the metaphysical mekhitzah between the genders to the detriment of both genders.
Prohibiting it makes no sense whatsoever, unless of course your paranoid of women and insecure.
It's not a din in hilkhos tefialh but in Hilkhos Bais HaKne'ses.
The cyber -fatso has to go feed his misogynist face.
I'll bl"n be back to infuriate you in about 45 minutes. In the meantime fight nicely and try to avoid being a naval birshus HaTorah.
and bray, as far as I undertand, the halacha about a machitza in shul (which is not in the shulchan aruch that I can find, or at least not in shulchan aruch harav) is derived from a nobrainer that since you cannot daven in the presence of erva, and since women come to shul and you have no control over what they wear, then therefore there is a necessity to have a machitzah, as is required in your home if there is erva present.
That whole line of reasoning is silly, as nowadays men (normal men, at least) have become habituated to the presence of women and are not sexually aroused by them unless they make an effort to do so.
The Conservative halachic attitude toawrd mechita has been summarized by the Masorti Va'ad Hahalakha here:
http://www.responsafortoday.com/....com/vol2/
1.pdf
An English summary can be found here. (use the menu to click on "English summaries" and then use the drop-down menu to find Volume 2.)
http://www.responsafortoday.com/.../
eng_index.html
It's not a din in hilkhos tefialh but in Hilkhos Bais HaKne'ses.
However chaim, you need to remember the reason why we have a machitzah (which coupled with the other reason mentioned above) states that it is in memory of the ezras nashim that was in the bais hamikdash. Thus, since we can still daven in a place without any machitzah whatsoever (and the laws regarding devarim shebikedusha do not probit saying them without a mechitzah, only around erva)
and B The relevant halacha about the ezras nashim in the bais hamikdash states that it was only created because of simchas beis hashoeva, where the people at the shul were generaly heavily intoxicated, and therefore prone to very improper behavior,
C since being drunk in the synagogue is prohibited in the first place and noone may daven while drunk
We must conclude that halachicaly there is no reason to have it in the first place, and it is not halacha but minhag (and well intrenched minhag at that, noone debates it.) and is merely ceremonial in nature and does not change anything, and that since it is a machitzah, and therefore intervines between the erva and the worshipers, it is therefore inconsequential whether or not the women are dressed scantily in the womens section, as long as the men are not actively trying to look.
and the statement about the mishkan in channah's days and afterwards is perfectly historical. The talmud relates that the ezras nashim was not, orignionaly, part of the bais hamikdash but was added in the time of herod because of improper behavior in the temple court on simchas beis hashoeva (which implies that the rest of the time, IE when women just went to the bais hamikdash to pray or offer a sacrifice, the women and men were not seperated, because otherwise it would not have specified simchas bais hashoeva.)
secondly, the shailos and teshuvos apperantly repeatedly as the rabbanim for advice about women comming scantily clad to shul. IIRC the usualy reply was that since there was a machitza and you can do nothing about it, don't worry about it.
"it is ossur for a nidah to touch/handle a Sefer Torah."
Rashi, Rambam, the Shulchan Aruch, the Rama, the Magen Avraham, and the Shulchan Aruch HaRav disagree. (My wife recently attended a shiur on this issue and showed me the source sheets.)
"naval b'rshus HaTorah"
I find it offensive to compare gluttony and promiscuity to women handling a sefer torah.
"high hemlines"
Mainly in charedi communities today. MO women tend to wear really long skirts.
"They wish to show their love for the torah,"
Something worth encouraging!
"I'm not even sure that there is a need for a machitzah"
Good point about the beit hamikdash. The argument that it is a biblical requirement is very week because the gemara in Sukkah describes the circumstances when the rabbis instituted it. Chas v'shalom that the sages had violated biblical commandments for hundreds of years!
"destroying a hierarchal strucure "
What hierarchy? Jewish women have an equal level of holiness as men.
That whole line of reasoning is silly, as nowadays men (normal men, at least) have become habituated to the presence of women and are not sexually aroused by them unless they make an effort to do so.
Mazel tov! the halacha in shulchan aruch actualy states this clearly that if one is accustomed to this exposure than it does not prohibit a man from davening or saying shema. (although the mishna berura is uptight about this, but I have become less enamoured with him as the years have gone by, although I find his book usefull often enough). (all except for the "shook" which is generaly translated thigh bone. If it means the calf, then I would hasten to point that if that is so, then the tights which women wear are always shear, and therefore halachicaly ineffective at rendering it tznius. Actualy if they were relying on the tights halachicaly it would be better for them to wear pants than g-d forbid they should rely on the tights.
I would suggest that we stop arguing about the height of mechitzahs (ten tefachim is accepted by many poskim) and women handling sifrei torah (mutar according to the sources I've listed).
We do have a problem in our communities with lack of kavanah during davening and it isn't because women are distracting men. Rabbis have almost completely given up trying to reduct the level of talking during services to the halachic standard. Talmidei chachamim study gemara during the repetition of the shemoneh esrei even when there would not be a minyan without them being part of the count. I've been in many places where the level of dress -- of women *and* men -- is not in keeping with the respect due to the environment. (One minyan I attended had to give an aliyah to a guy in shorts because there weren't enough guys not in shorts!) And I've been in too many places where sports and television programs are a common topic of conversation *in the beit knesset*! (Interestingly, the place I hear this the least is in the shul that is arguably the farthest to the left hashgafically.)
And the level of drinking on Purim and Simchat Torah in some shuls is greater than in any of the Irish bars in my neighborhood. Even an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting will ask someone who is acutely intoxicated to come back the next day. Can't we have higher standards?
The relevant halacha about the ezras nashim in the bais hamikdash states that it was only created because of simchas beis hashoeva
Nonsense. You're thinking of the תיקון גדול, which separated men and women during the festivities of שמחת בית השואבה.
The עזרת נשים, on the other hand, was a fixed part of the Temple, all year. But guess what? It was mixed seating (or rather, standing)! Most men hung out in that section of the Temple. It was called the עזרת נשים only because women, under normal circumstances, did not penetrate further into the sanctum of the Temple. But guess what! Under normal circumstances, men did not penetrate further into the sanctum, either.
So, if you wanted to build your shul after the model of the עזרת נשים, you would have mixed seating. And if you wanted to build it after the model of thee תיקון גדול of the שמחת בית השואבה, you would have a shul that was open five or six nights a year (in the diaspora, only four or five).
We do have a problem in our communities with lack of kavanah during davening...
A good friend of mine has recently decided to give up davvening in the blah MO "Young Israel"-style shul, and start davvening at the European-style shul down the block, in order to get a more kavvonadike davvening.
והמבין יבין
You're thinking of the תיקון גדול,
thanks, I thought of the wrong word.
but it changes the point not.
"naval b'rshus HaTorah"
I find it offensive to compare gluttony and promiscuity to women handling a sefer torah.
I wasn't referring to any particular practice but to the mindset that would challenge every single ststus quo with "Where does it say that it's assur?" This mindset and the knee-jerk incessant repetition of this question is symptomatic of the naval b'rshus Hatorah sensibility.
"destroying a hierarchal strucure "
What hierarchy? Jewish women have an equal level of holiness as men
The same hierarchy that gives superior TKs over lesser TKs (Sanhedrin...maskhilim min HaTzad)TKs precedence over Am ha-artzim, parents over progeny, Kohanim over Levi'im , levi'im over Yisraelim, Malkhei Bais David over commoners and the aged over the young.
That hierarchy.
BTW.
Other than the parts about LW and RW MOs was there nothing else discussion-worthy in my post?
I wasn't referring to any particular practice but to the mindset that would challenge every single ststus quo with "Where does it say that it's assur?" This mindset and the knee-jerk incessant repetition of this question is symptomatic of the naval b'rshus Hatorah sensibility.
Chaim, you are being rediculous. There is a gross difference between being a glotton or having to many wives, and a woman wishing to show her love for the torah. One is a positive, the other an unabashed negative.
Love for torah is a good thing, and I would add that I have heard of women who would still be frum today if such things were practiced, and the cheredi community didn't stick it to women at every oppertunity to "keep them in their place". They even stick to them in places were halacha does not by any means mandate it (ie krias hamegila. The shulchan aruch only quotes the opposition opinion as "yaish omrim", and therefore is not accepted pshat halacha, nomatter what some other people may claim, nor does the rama differ from this approach, at least in the shulchan aruch.) and even worse in places where halacha does not mandate it.
It is harmless, does not encourage bad middos, and on the contrary gives the girls an oppertunity to show their love of torah, so why not do it? Is a woman showing that she loves the torah a bad thing? Well? Is a woman wanting to be able to see the chazan a bad thing? to see the torah when it is lifted? What, excactly, is bad about these things? Where does it say in torah that these things should be the exclusive rights of men?
Many women (even mentioned in the talmud) of all ages but our own wore tefillin and tzitzis! Beruria learned torah, as did many other women. Why on earth do you have to dafka insinuate that these things somehow put women in their place, and where on earth in the torah do you derive that you even have a right to put a woman in her place?
Neither husband nor wife have the right to dictate to each other what to do (evidenced by the lack of reshus to punish them for non-complaince, infact for a man to do so to his wife is a chargable offense in torah law), so how are you even going to extend this to the more general catagory?
Yes, when women were largely ignorant of the halacha, someone had to tell them what the halacha is. IN a time where they are knowledgable about the halacha (often times more than men, as the men spend time on talmud to the exclusion of learning how to derive the law) than husbands, how does anyone have the right to guide them at all?
"gives superior TKs over lesser TKs"
What does that have to do with allowing women to handle a sefer torah?
"it is ossur for a nidah to touch/handle a Sefer Torah."
NO, it's not. Shira Salamone had a great discussion of the issues around sifrei Torah and why they are already "tamei" (sort of) a while back. Apparently folks used to store them in a safe place - which meant, with their grain. So the mice would nibble, and then they'd be pasul.
'challenge every single ststus quo with "Where does it say that it's assur?"'
We as orthodox Jews have to make, "Is it mutar or asur" the first question we ask regarding everything!
The same hierarchy that gives superior TKs over lesser TKs (Sanhedrin...maskhilim min HaTzad)TKs precedence over Am ha-artzim, parents over progeny, Kohanim over Levi'im , levi'im over Yisraelim, Malkhei Bais David over commoners and the aged over the young.
Umm, excuuuuuuse me??
Where the heck does it say in Torah that MEN have "precedence" OVER WOMEN??
No, really, I'm asking. And mind you, I'm talking about ACTUAL Torah, not the rantings of some mysogynist medieval rabbi.
and a woman wishing to show her love for the torah. ...
Love for torah is a good thing,
Leah is Yaakov's wife and Yehuda's mother. Both men love this woman. Should Yehuda express his love for Leah in precisely the manner that Ya'akov does i.e. including physical intimacy?
We ALL love Torah and Mitzvos. If a Yisrael loves doling out brakhos to his fellow Jews shoudl he insist on being oleh L'dukhan?
This is just adas Korakh redux
ג וַיִּקָּהֲלוּ עַל-מֹשֶׁה וְעַל-אַהֲרֹן, וַיֹּאמְרוּ אֲלֵהֶם רַב-לָכֶם--כִּי כָל-הָעֵדָה כֻּלָּם קְדֹשִׁים, וּבְתוֹכָם יְהוָה; וּמַדּוּעַ תִּתְנַשְּׂאוּ, עַל-קְהַל יְהוָה.
3 and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them: 'Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them; wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?
Don't be a naive fool who uncritically swallows the claptrap of the religo-Feminists. You want to express your love for the Torah? Actualize YOUR potential as delineated by the Torah. Stop wasting time and energy trying to be what the Torah says you are not.
CG - Yehudah has brown eyes, while Yaakov has blue eyes. Should they both be allowed to see the same Sefer Torah, in the same shul, on Shabbat??
Come on.
Stop wasting time and energy trying to be what the Torah says you are not.
the problem is torah does not say that they are not, and nowhere (even) insinuates that this is innapropriate for them, ever.
So where does it say that they are not and that this is not fitting? I should think it the opposite since women generaly express their love in this way much more readily than men do, and it means so much more to them. Men are more apt to express their love of something by giving a speach declaring as such, or performing some action, women on the otherhand perfer to touch and hug.
Where the heck does it say in Torah that MEN have "precedence" OVER WOMEN??
Let's start from close to the beginning.
טז אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה אָמַר, הַרְבָּה אַרְבֶּה עִצְּבוֹנֵךְ וְהֵרֹנֵךְ--בְּעֶצֶב, תֵּלְדִי בָנִים; וְאֶל-אִישֵׁךְ, תְּשׁוּקָתֵךְ, וְהוּא, יִמְשָׁל-בָּךְ. {ס}
16 Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.'
Actualize YOUR potential as delineated by the Torah. Stop wasting time and energy trying to be what the Torah says you are not.
The problem is, CG, that this is NOT what the Torah says. It is what various MALE rabbis and rabble have said from their own enculturated prejudices.
That's like saying, "Hey, black man, stop trying to be all uppity and white. You'll be so much happier if you learn to KNOW YOUR PLACE." 
16 Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.'
idiot, that is a curse, and not something that torah encourages us to follow, because it follows that up by telling us that "all that sara thy wife tells you, thou shalt do."
ANd it follows that up by rivkah deceiving his wife, and when he realizes it he accepts it with grace and equanimity, and nowhere is rivkah condemned for this act.
and the counter examples abound.
The problem is, CG, that this is NOT what the Torah says. It is what various MALE rabbis and rabble have said from their own enculturated prejudices.
problem with this statement is I haven't found very many rabbis who say this either, except in the last couple hundred years.
(yes as I said there was the issue of women being often ignorant, but I answered that already.)
Please friends don't be obtuse and deep in denial.
It is not the hakafos or touching the Torah per se that I find troubling, it is the philosophy underpinning these innovations.
This "movement"isn't about religion and religious aspirations so stop quibbling about this or that particular practice. It is about "liberation" (as if someones been enslaved) and "equality" (as if apples and orange can ever be cloned from one another)
It is about "liberation" (as if someones been enslaved) and "equality" (as if apples and orange can ever be cloned from one another)
no bray, it isn't. It is these kinds of refusals that are unjustified that give birth to "liberation" pushes.
YOu are making irrational rationalizations for something that is fundementaly inexcusable.
Men have to right to be dictating such things to the women, because the torah does not give them that right. IF they want to do it, a rabbi has NO right what so ever to object, and it is a great mitzvah to assist them.
It is not the hakafos or touching the Torah per se that I find troubling, it is the philosophy underpinning these innovations.
This "movement"isn't about religion and religious aspirations so stop quibbling about this or that particular practice. It is about "liberation" (as if someones been enslaved) and "equality" (as if apples and orange can ever be cloned from one another)
Do you honestly think that the world was better for women (as women) 100 years ago than it is today? If so, all I can say is, clearly you are not a woman.
tzip, do you find my prosecuting this case against him presumptuous on my part? Would you rather do it your self?
The problem is, CG, that this is NOT what the Torah says. It is what various MALE rabbis and rabble have said from their own enculturated prejudices.
Well Tzipp you go your way and I'll go mine. Here're some more insights into mine:
The Ramban writes HaTorah nitnah ahl da'as khakhomim= "The Torah was given with the imprimatur of the sages" Hence the Torah is, by the word of G-d, whatever those self-same MALE rabbis ...have said from their own enculturated prejudices say that it is.
In Emunah U'Bitakhon the Chazon Ish writes that your attitude totally undermines mesorah=tradition and emunas khakhomim=faith in the sages. Hlakhic precedent is rendered meaningless once you ascribe outside influences, aculturation and conflicts of interests to the sages.
How can we trust and build halakha on anything the Rashba, Rebee Akiva Eiger or Rav Moshe Feinstien wrote in any of their responsa without first cross-referencing exhaustive accurate biographies to find out what the local communal politics were, what books he had reacentky read, whether or not his marriage was on the rocks, on the day that he wrote the responsum?
Do you honestly think that the world was better for women (as women) 100 years ago than it is today? If so, all I can say is, clearly you are not a woman.
Tzip, I'd personaly rather be a jewish woman 900 years ago than a jewish woman 100 years ago, and way more than a cheredi woman today.
HNC-
Sounds to me that you'd rather be a woman period...which is OK. if you were born one...which you were not.
I think that things are undeniably better for women today in education and in the workplace than a century ago. On the domestic scene I'm unconvinced. In religion they are far worse off...as are the men.
HaTorah nitnah ahl da'as khakhomim this does NOT translate as the torah was given with the knowledge of the chachamim (which does not make sense).
It says that the torah was given for the knowledge of the chachamim! big difference bray. (or it could mean against if its spelled with an ayin.)
Where is that quote from?
If so, all I can say is, clearly you are not a woman.
No I'm not. But I love them justthe same.
a love which is selfish is not love at all, but rather abuse and vanity. (I forget the actual quote from the sages, but they say something to that effect, although worded radicaly different.)
(and please tell me it isn't from bereshis, because at the moment my mikros gedolos bereshis is in shul, and it is pouring cats and dogs.)
How can we trust and build halakha on anything
aha!! Now you're getting somewhere... we'll make a Recontructionist out of yuo, yet.
it's ahl d'as as in ahl da'as Hmokom etc.in Kol Nidrei.
IIRC it's from Ramban ahl Hatorah on the posuk of
יא עַל-פִּי הַתּוֹרָה אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ, וְעַל-הַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר-יֹאמְרוּ לְךָ--תַּעֲשֶׂה: לֹא תָסוּר, מִן-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר-יַגִּידוּ לְךָ--יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל.
11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
In Emunah U'Bitakhon the Chazon Ish writes that your attitude totally undermines mesorah=tradition and emunas khakhomim=faith in the sages. Hlakhic precedent is rendered meaningless once you ascribe outside influences, aculturation and conflicts of interests to the sages.
as you should already know, being that he is one of the four or so prewar rabbis who gave birth to modern cheredism (ie the chassam sofer, the sdei chemed, the chofetz chayim, and him) I do not hold him in the highest regard, and about such an issue he is an acheron and may be freely disregarded (if he means what you are saying he means), especialy as his oppinion is opposed by the majority of scholars because it completely undermines the principles of minhag hamakom and and those pretaining to each comunity relying on its own precident. (very rarely did chazzal seek to unify practice as they did with shofer, about such things, and even then it was because people were accusing others of blowing wrong.) The reason why it undermines this is because the halachic psak dinnim that are given are largely dependant on the dynamics of the communities in which they are given. Apply a dynamic that is outside the dynamic and structure of the community which includes the non-jews) and one risks violating torah law, as the cirucumstances are different. (see, for instance, the halachos about being able to commit certain monetary injustices against non-jews. Noone I would have any respect for would refrain from calling that stealing in an age when we are not suffering the monetary injusteces that provoked those psak dinnim. (which often state that the non-jews are not just with their money to begin with, so therefore we do not have to go so far beyond what they are accustomed to.)
thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
the biblical precident for prohibiting chumrah taking not justified by halacha (which is most practiced today).
Thanks for scoring me a point.
"Should Yehuda express his love for Leah in precisely the manner that Ya'akov does i.e. including physical intimacy?"
No, only in a halachically permissible fashion. And holding a sefer torah is halachically permissible.
"Actualize YOUR potential as delineated by the Torah."
Neither the Torah, nor the rabbis, have specified a delineation that excludes women from holding a sefer torah. Indeed, the normative halachah for our times is that women not only can do mitzvot for which they are patur but for which men are chayev, they get credit for the mitzvah. (And if she is Ashkenazic, she says the brachah beforehand.) The only possible exception is tefillin, where women may be prohibited for other reasons from donning tefillin the same as men.
"I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
That has nothing to do with what happens in shul! (And no rabbi would advise a husband that the path to shalom bayit is to "rule" over his wife.)
'It is about "liberation" (as if someones been enslaved) and "equality" (as if apples and orange can ever be cloned from one another)'
I don't know who you've been talking to, but it isn't the frum women I know who dance with sifrei Torah on Simchat Torah or study gemara. The motivation is to be closer to HaShem and to learn more Torah. Orthodox Judaism isn't egalitarian, even among men. (I will never be able to give the birkat kohanim, for example.)
'It is these kinds of refusals that are unjustified that give birth to "liberation" pushes.'
I think that there is some truth to this. When you forbid the permitted it leads to permitting the forbidden.
"In religion they are far worse off"
What planet are you on???
A hundred years ago there were no seminaries for women, no Bais Yaakov schools, no co-ed MO schools, no advanced courses of study such that we have today at Midreshet Lindenbaum, Nishmat, Drisha, or YU. Just a tiny handful of schools in Germany and America had ever tried to teach women even the basics of Jewish philosophy and observance. And the American schools had by and large not been successful. Unless one really thinks that ignorance is bliss -- hardly a Jewish value -- I can't see how anyone could make that statement and believe it.
The problem is, CG, that this is NOT what the Torah says. It is what various MALE rabbis and rabble have said from their own enculturated prejudices.
That you would conflate "Rabbis" and "rabble" for a cheap alliterative jibe is as deeply offensive to me as anything I may have written that seeminglyoppresses women is to you.
It is also very revealing and is the reason that we really have nothing further to discuss on this issue as you've proven my point.
I repeat: Did I make any other discussion worthy points in this post?
"the biblical precident for prohibiting chumrah taking not justified by halacha"
Indeed our tradition says it was a chumrah (Don't touch the tree!) that led to the violation of halachah (Don't eat from the tree!) that led to the fall of humankind.
I don't have a problem with people taking on chumrot as long as (1) they know it is a chumrah, and (2) they don't force others to do so.
I don't have a problem with people taking on chumrot as long as (1) they know it is a chumrah, and (2) they don't force others to do so.
I do in instances where it will lead to social pressure for the chumrah to become the norm. IE, all chumrot should be done privately, and noone should know that you are diverging from what everyone else practices, unless you are a well known and universaly accepted as being uniquely g-d faring.
A hundred years ago there were no seminaries for women, no Bais Yaakov schools, no co-ed MO schools, no advanced courses of studyetc.
Your litmus test is predicated on gender equality vis a vis limud HaTorah. If becoming a TK is NOT the best way for Jewish woman to actualize her spiritual potential then the litmus test proves nothing.
Furthermore I'm of the opinion that the salt of teh earth am-haratzim of the male variety of 100 years ago were better Jews than the average MALE Yeshiva grad today. Their emunah was more real and heartfelt, their Shabbosos were sweeter and holier, their G-d reliance was palpable and their transitory nature as sojourners in this world was clearer.
I'm through till late evening. I think I've done my OCD due dilligence. Carry on without me and don't forget to see other things in the post than my alleged misogyny.
And holding a sefer torah is halachically permissible.
Does halakha have a soul or merely a body, is it composed of letter only or is their a spirit as well?
IMO the spirit of halakha endorses a hierarchy and clearly defined gender roles.
sasregen
didnt your brother die this week?aren't you supposed to be sitting shiva?
CG - read Chana's post, if you really want the frum, feminist perspective.
Does halakha have a soul or merely a body, is it composed of letter only or is their a spirit as well?
IMO the spirit of halakha endorses a hierarchy and clearly defined gender roles.
where do you find a source for this perported "soul" of halacha?
please tell me.
and yes, it defines gender roles, but these are not part of it. It defines that men must go out to work, and that married women should be absolute arbiters of everything concerning the home.
Other than this? you wont find much of a source.
and I would note that heredim embrace the wholesale rejection of both of these genender roles.
where do you find a source for this perported "soul" of halacha?
stick your nose in a Tanya and plug away.
"Your litmus test is predicated on gender equality vis a vis limud HaTorah. If becoming a TK is NOT the best way for Jewish woman to actualize her spiritual potential then the litmus test proves nothing."
Did I say that all women should become talmidei chachamim? Bais Yaakov schools are certainly not designed to do that! One can certainly be a perfectly find frum Jew only with knowledge of basic philosophy and halachah. But do you really believe that *NO* Jewish woman should *ever* fulfil her intellectual potential in limud torah?
"I'm of the opinion that the salt of teh earth am-haratzim of the male variety of 100 years ago were better Jews than the average MALE Yeshiva grad today."
If that is the case, there is something very wrong with our yeshivot today.
precisely. We need a new movement ahlah the Besht's Chasidus or Rav Yisrael Salanter's Mussar to reinvigorate a moribund Judaism.
stick your nose in a Tanya and plug away.
I do not tend to study tanya because it makes me to obsessive, but I am familiar with its contents still, even after several years.
What particular passage are you refering to?
addundum: tranya makes me not only obsessive, but makes me feel utterly worthless and like mitzvos are entirely poinless, which is kind of against the point of the book, so I take the ikkarim that tanya teaches and simply avoid the book itself.
And so unwravels a thread with so musch untapped potential.
"stick your nose in a Tanya and plug away"
I've never learned Tanya, so I can't discuss.
You need Tanya to tell you that there is more than the letter of the law.
Nebikh, really nebikh.
"We need a new movement ahlah the Besht's Chasidus or Rav Yisrael Salanter's Mussar to reinvigorate a moribund Judaism."
This is actually a much more interesting beginning of a thread than the post which started this. What would be the philosophical differences between it and what we see today? What such a movement look like? How would it bring back the overwhelming majority of our Jewish brothers and sisters who aren't interested in observance?
"You need Tanya to tell you that there is more than the letter of the law."
While it may be in Tanya, it is also found all over other sources as well. The Ramban mentioned above is one example. Another is in the classic mussar sources. Contemporary MO rabbis such as Rav Lichtenstein discuss this issue at length.
What would be the philosophical differences between it and what we see today? What such a movement look like?
Any similarity between me and the Besht or Rav Yisrael Salanter is purely coincidental.
eelu yodahteev hehyeesiv.
Please share with us some of what Rav Lichtenstein says.
Any similarity between me and the Besht or Rav Yisrael Salanter is purely coincidental.
Copout.
No. Humility and not having lost touch with reality.
Started reading your link but was overcome with weeping about halfway through.
Are you SURE you're not a woman??
I wasn't weeping out of sympathy but out of pity.
You see Tzipp it's only because I have such a firm grip on my havdala sensitivities, that I still know the difference between male and female, that I have free access to my feminine side.
eh, blow it out your ear, Chaim.
What? From acculturated rabble you were expecting anything better???
Here is one article by Rav Lichtenstein:
R. Aharon Lichtenstein, "Does Jewish Law Recognize an Ethic Independent of Halakhah?" in Marvin Fox, ed., Modern Jewish Ethics; Theory and Practice (Ohio State University Press, 1975), pp. 62-88.
I've seen some more recent stuff but can't find it at the moment.
Chaim (Bray?)-
It's an argument about esthetics & I don't agree about all. But you have definitely been around, if you mean Hancock Park LA.
We as orthodox Jews have to make, "Is it mutar or asur" the first question we ask regarding everything!
aah charlie - you've hit upon the fundamental difference between us and you- you're concerned whether or not you CAN - we're concerned whether or not we SHOULD
I do mean Hancock Park LA.
Travel is broadening. Blogging is narrowing.
Well put Golem.
whether or not we SHOULD
and yet you have failed to give any classic torah sources to support your claim that we should not.
You miss the point. Khazaka and status quo are sacrosanct in Jewish Law and lore. It is upon the schismatic reformers/innovators and their fellow travelers to provide classic torah sources to support your claim that we SHOULD innovate.
As Tzipp has made abundantly clear this so-called demand for eglitarian equality and increased spiritual opportunities is nothing of the kind.
The adversarial construct that pits the women and the progressives against the Rabble/Rabbis is precisely the reason that I wrote in the original post that we're headed for yet another tragic rift rather than towards reconciliation.
Also Kowtowing to the radical Religo-feminists in your midst as you are headed for the next official schism within Judaism. Keep it up and you will be official anathemas to the balance of Torah Jewry even sooner than the Elokist-Chabadniks
Khazaka and status quo are sacrosanct in Jewish Law and lore
only in the kefira of the chassam sofer.
IN the resto of traditional jewish law and lore, there is no such assumption made. Practices were innovated constantly and the question the rabbis asked was "is it mutar?" and if the answer was yes, they praised it and lay their blessings on it. NEVER will you see a new minhag rejected in history because of ahalachic concern.
So no, the chassams sofer's "chadash assur min hatorah" doesn't sway me, because I don't have much respect for him in the first place, although I wont particularly denigrate him.
(all rabbis throughout the centuries believed some kefiradik principle or another according to everyone else, so labling a specific prinicple of a given rabbi as kefira doesn't bother me so much, and it does not mean that I lable the rabbi a kofer.)
(or perhaps bray you have not read chassidus's take on minhagim, how it praises the minhagim as organic expressions of love between klal yisroel and hashem, and how it considers them so increadibly important, even though very often they are quite silly. Perhaps you do not quite understand this fact? A new minhag is the same as an old minhag in chassidus, as well as in halacha. If there is no halachic objection to it, the rabbis rarely, if ever rejected it.)
Which is why we see all recognized contemporary Chasidic Masters running to embrace Bat Mitzvah Drashot and womens Hakafot.
Question Nut on the 1/2 Shell:
What did the Chasam Sofer ever do to you? (or was it to the Mittlelh Rebbe)?
You seem to be severely traumatized by him.
Which is why we see all recognized contemporary Chasidic Masters running to embrace Bat Mitzvah Drashot and womens Hakafot.
---
Who cares what those backwards goons embrace?
I do. Schismatics don't.
It's really very satisfying. The more vituperative comments you gals and guys make the more you prove that you are guilty as charged and headed in the opposite direction of reconciliation.
Let THEMMM embrace MEEEE
What did the Chasam Sofer ever do to you? (or was it to the Mittlelh Rebbe)?
The chassam sofer is the root of modern cheredi narishkeit, although how much of it can be blamed on him I do not properly know, But I do know that he was most certainly the first person with anything resembling a cheredi hashkafa.
And he spiritualy gave birth to the subsequent 3 forebarers.
And you,personally, are oppressed by "modern cheredi narishkeit"?
BTW you hold that the Chofetz Chaim's lfetime devotion to eradicating Lashon Hara was a bad thing?
Halevai that we all would adhere to that particular "narishkeit".
BTW you hold that the Chofetz Chaim's lfetime devotion to eradicating Lashon Hara was a bad thing?
I haven't actualy read the chaffetz chaim, although I feel that promoting shmiras halashon and not speaking lashon hara about individuals was an excelent endeavour.
I will not say that any of these individuals was bad by themselves, although I do not recognize their piskei dinim as being inline with those great rabanim who came before them. They were, undoubtably great scholars, and yet their hashkafot were increasingly problematic as time passed. THey were, I am sure, outstanding individuals whom I would have no doubt would decry the excesses taken in their name, but at the same time I recognize that the excesses themselves are a direct and entirely logical extention of their hashkafa which bled its way through in to their halachic piskei dinim.
and as such, their chiddushie hashkafa v'halacha are directly and entirely responsible for this current decrepit situation.
Perhaps it was a fault in their ruach hakodesh, I simply do not know, although certainly I do not think that monster that they collectively bore.
Although I would suggest that rav moshe recognized the danger in their chiddushim, given his fairly consistant custome of ignoring them in his teshuvot. (again, I am not degrading them. I do not think that they even intended for this to happen.)
> I am not degrading them
No. Not at all. Not THEM.
> I am not degrading them
No. Not at all. Not THEM.
Bray moshe decided to hit the rock instead of speak to it. Do not your types generaly say than rather than he got angry (chas v'shalom) that he instead thought that it would make a better display, and yet where did that leave him?
And let us not forget the many other good, holy rabbanim who made mistakes that judaism later had to pay for. (like the famous vort about the rabbi in perkei avos whom they say was yushka's teacher.)
they are not alone by any means, and certainly many cheredim hold that certain of rav moshe's piskei dinim (almost spelled it denim) are dangerous to judaism, no?
Flew right over you.
hnc,
Your deductions regarding R' Moshe acceptance of the greatness of the Mishne brurah are flawed. Tshuvah seforim are written in different styles, however one constant is that when possible the author of the teshuvah will try to quote the source, R' Moshe had equal if not greater access to the chofetz chaim's sources, and therefore quoted from them directly. Why not bring some instances where R'moshe contradicts some of the Psakim of the Chofetz chaim, wouldn't that be a better support of your arguement? BTW-I had the pleasure of joining my older siblings on many a train ride to MTJ, and have had the occasion to see R' Moshe looking into that same sefer you claim he ignored. One question, you're claiming a certain level of consistency in the Tshuvot of R' Moshe (which I don't deny), This is based on a survey of approximately how many Tshuvos? 100, of them? 150? How many Tshuvot of R' Moshe's have you perused that you can determine whether or not he held the Mishne Brurah in high esteem or not?
One more question:
How many of the Chasam Sofer's tshuvot have you read through, that you're laying the responsibility of all that is wrong with 'Chareidim' at his feet. Which of his actions, Psakim, takanos, Drashos, or Divrei Torah do you feel spawned this movement?
the reference to rav moshe is what I have heard from numerous people who have studied his teshuvot, some just for fun.
and I also look in to the mishnah berura often as well, even though I am nervous about his piskei dinim.
and though I've heard a few other complains, the biggest one is the "chadash assur minhatorah" which is a cornerstone and pillar of the cheredi movement (which, as I have said, is something of an oddity, as it isn't consistant with what came before it.) The chazzon ish had multiple complainst, I've never heard him quoted either for a hashkafa or psak that didn't trouble me severely on any number of jewish and practical levels (is he the one who said that one should be moser nefesh not to even accept change from a woman's hand? [not in and of its self a bad idea, but it leaves so much room for missinterpretation and giving reshus to stupidity) the chassam sofer bothers me mostly because of his extreme willingness to add total innovations in his mishnah berura without citation at all, a number of them I know good and well are not based in halacha but on his own personal daas (for instance his comments on krias shema in front of erva or any of a number of other selections, I have seen for the fromer in the shulchan aruch and its pirushim, plus what came before, clear statements that the halacha is not like he said it is.) and with regard to the sdei chemed I have heard from him, for instance, his statement that all midrashim are litteral, which is clearly contradicted in most if not very nearly all those who came before him. Not to mention is ahistorical complaint about women going to mikvah before marriage is assur, therefore women should not go to mikvah on erev rosh hashana.
These aren't the only things I've heard from them are that seriously odd in light of what came before, and I'm not going to say that they were not exceedinly knowledgable poskim, and also that their works are exceedinly usefull, however, I am wary about some of their hashkafot because they are so very different from what I have noticed in earlier sources.
(as I said, I use the mishneh berura regularly, it has many exceedinly usefull sources, and between it and the shulchan aruch harav, it forms a usefull springboard for looking at the sources on any issue.)
How many of the Chasam Sofer's tshuvot have you read through, that you're laying the responsibility of all that is wrong with 'Chareidim' at his feet. Which of his actions, Psakim, takanos, Drashos, or Divrei Torah do you feel spawned this movement?
I did not say that it all lays down at his feet, I only say that he is the first, and his "chadash assur min hatorah" chiddush forms a corner stone of that movement. Do you dissagree? He gave them the first stone they needed.
Let he who is without Teshuva cast the first stone!
Shelled Nut-
Let's get back (closer) on topic. It seems funny that you castigate "innovations" L'khumra of the Chazon Ish but have no problems with innovations L'kula of the Religo-Feminists. I think we can all agree taht Bat Mitzvah Drashot and Hakafot by women are innovations.
As far as the Chasidic cherishing of minhag Yisrael I aver that this was because it was deemed an organic expression of something intrinsically Jewish and/or a sublimation of cultural difffusion (AKA raising the sparks). they were decidedly against bald examples of
לה וַיִּתְעָרְבוּ בַגּוֹיִם; וַיִּלְמְדוּ, מַעֲשֵׂיהֶם. 35 B
But mingled themselves with the nations, and learned their works;
לו וַיַּעַבְדוּ אֶת-עֲצַבֵּיהֶם; וַיִּהְיוּ לָהֶם לְמוֹקֵשׁ.
36 And they served their idols, which became a snare unto them;
IMO this movement falls under this category.
it isn't kulah, its within accepted pshat halacha, which means there is nothing wrong with it.
Its not a change in what can or cannot be done at all. Noone ever said a woman could not hold and dance with a torah scroll.
People, however, did say that you can say krias shema in front of, for instance, A woman in short sleeves if you are habituated to this exposure, because then it causes no hihurim and is therefore no problem.
being l'kulah is only applicable to something that is less than pshat halacha. Likewise being "l'chumra" is only applicable to being more than pshat halacha, so I do not see how this has any relevance whatsover to womens hakafot.
Where does halacha say that they cannot do it? (and certainly halacha does not refrain from saying such things, and in particular because hakafot are a rather newfangeled custome tobegin with! (in the scheme of things) and so is saying aleinu after davening (althoug even older).)
In a case like this, I would expect that if the sages thought it was, or even should be forbiden, they would have said so, and they did not. Infact, they said dafkah a woman could touch a sefer torah, and tell me, when do you exactly think that women were ever in a possition to touch a sefer torah if they are always kept in the aron of the mens section of the synagogue, where in the old days the women were always in balconies, have you ever actualy thought about that question? it means that either A women were doing saferus for sifrei torah,
B women were spending time in the mens section in the shuls in europe
C Men took the sifrei torah up the stairs to the ezras nashim,
D Women had a custome to dance with a sefer torah on simchas torah
Or Rabbanim decided that women had as much right to touch a sefer torah/read from it/ etc. as they wished, and it logicaly follows that if you are allowed to teach them torah, then they should be allowed to dance with a torah to show their love for it! If they can read from it (and in the old days they read from an actual scroll when learning chumash) then there is no reason why they cannot spend time dancing with it.
(I mean, if you think about it... the reason for dancing with it these days applies as much to women as men, as they learn torah as well (which actualy in certain circles they always did...).)
and I would point out that womens hakafot with a sefer torah is not similar to anything that the non-jewish world ever did, and if it was it would be forbiden for men too. I mean, fedoras were origionaly women's hats.
and I would point out that womens hakafot with a sefer torah is not similar to anything that the non-jewish world ever did
Ever hear of equal pay for equal work?
Ever hear of equal pay for equal work?
and that is assur (or even unadvisable) exactly how? Torah tradition in no way mandates that women should be paid less for work. I don't even see how you could derive that from anything. What do you base that being undesireable on?
and don't quote wearing pants, because the talmud says that it is assur for a man to wear pants.
Or perhaps we should prohibit refusing semicha to a woman because catholics refuse to ordain women priests?
Infact, I don't think that halochot on payment discriminate between a man and woman at all, and whats further its shocking that you would insinuate such a thing because the kollel system derives no end of benefit to women being paid equal to men.
Nor do I think torah finds protecting them from discrimination inadvisable, nor do I think there is much of a moreh makom for voting, much less prohibiting women in voting.
And is there a halacha that prohibits women from things like town leadership possitions, and by extention secular government possitions? I don't think so.
*SIGH*
I was wrong: Bruuers was the biggest shul (easily, I've been told) ... but it was not the majority of the community.
I was wrong: Bruuers was the biggest shul (easily, I've been told) ... but it was not the majority of the community.
You say "I've been told". In other words, you did once live in Washington Heights, or this is all hearsay.
(I type this from my Washington Heights apartment.)
"you've hit upon the fundamental difference between us and you- you're concerned whether or not you CAN - we're concerned whether or not we SHOULD"
We are closer than you think. But you first do have to ask "mutar or asur".
"chadash assur minhatorah....it isn't consistant with what came before it"
This is a true statement. There had indeed been many post Chazal innovations in rabbinic Judaism. The Chatam Sofer was responding to the threat of the Reform movement, which isn't much of a threat today.
"Khazaka and status quo are sacrosanct in Jewish Law and lore."
Not really. If that were the case, we would not have:
Tachanun
Selichot
Piyutim
Simchat Torah
Yizkor
Kabalat Shabat
Nusach Sfard
Nusach Ari
The last two are far more problematic than women handling a sefer torah, as they were a mamesh *change* to the shemoneh esrei.
"we're headed for yet another tragic rift rather than towards reconciliation"
Only if your side leaves. We aren't kicking anyone out.
'the question the rabbis asked was "is it mutar?" and if the answer was yes, they praised it and lay their blessings on it'
This is not entirely true. For example, starting in the middle ages, the rabbis did their best to restrict participation of women from activities that were halachically mutar that had been common minhag, at least in Ashkenaz. And at the end of the middle ages they actually changed normative halachah to prohibit women from reading the megillah for a man and from wearing tefillin.
" backwards goons "
I object to that kind of language. I have no objection if someone doesn't want to adopt the customs of my shuls. But don't you dare try to write us out of rabbinic Judaism. I'll fight you forever on that one.
"some instances where R'moshe contradicts some of the Psakim of the Chofetz chaim"
Doctors doing melachah to treat seriously ill non-Jews on Shabat.
"castigate "innovations" L'khumra of the Chazon Ish "
I have not castigated anyone. The Chazon Ish was a brilliant talmid chacham and contemporary poskim may rely upon him as an important acharon.
" it isn't kulah, its within accepted pshat halacha, which means there is nothing wrong with it"
I would not go that far. It is possible to do evil with the permission of the Torah, to paraphrase Ramban. But women giving shiurim or handling a sefer torah are not evils and should not threaten anyone other than the Conservative movement.
"when do you exactly think that women were ever in a possition to touch a sefer torah "
Prof. Baumgarten at Bar-Ilan found a woman in the early middle ages who tied together the sheets of parchment with the full approval of the rabbis.
"if you are allowed to teach them torah"
Far more problematic than dancing with the sefer! We can thank Rev. Sexias for starting the first Jewish school open to girls (in New York in the 18th century), to Rabbi Rice for doing the same thing in Baltimore once he arrived in 1840, to Rav Hirsch for the first such school that lasted (interestingly all these were co-ed schools) to the Chofetz Chaim for endorsing the Bais Yaakov movement, and expecially to Rov Soloveitchik for opening all of Torah to women, personally teaching gemara to them.
Note that the majority of these events took place in America. Many of the RZ rabbis in Israel who lead the most advanced educational programs for women are olim from America. Early shuls in America had a women's section at a time when that was not the norm in much of Europe. Things are different here and the Charedim who arrived after World War II don't understand that.
"prohibiting women in voting."
Rav Kook very strongly opposed allowing women to vote in Palestine.
"is there a halacha that prohibits women from things like town leadership possitions, and by extention secular government possitions"
Machlochet poskim. We are required to select a King from "among our brothers" which excludes women and converts and some say that applies to all positions of communal authority, such as shul Presidents. OTOH, I've never met a shul President who thinks he actually HAS any authority, and there are also examples in the talmud where the sages ignored this alleged prohibition. This was an issue when Golda Meir became Prime Minister of Israel, but the National Religious Party eventually endorsed her.
'from "among our brothers" which
excludes women'
I should also point out that the only one of the Hasmonean monarchs that Chazal praises was the woman. (As kohanim, the men were also supposed to be posul monarchs, but that didn't stop them.) There is no halachah, however, that prohibits a woman from receiving "yoreh yoreh" so-called semichah.
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