Mitzizah
Lulav/Esrog Parade
Mikvah
Nidah
Negiah
Non leather shoes
Black Hats
Kollel
Cheirim
Bashing anyone ever so slightly different from us in dress or attitude.
Notice. I did not list a single divine commandment
Would it be fair to say that the difference between secular and religous folks re:"weird things people do" has to do with depth, not practice.
Secular people pierce, purchase, crimp, suction, etc., etc., for the sake of:
1) Being attractive
2) Looking different
Nothing too sublime, just a narcissistic need to, at best, be seen as unique, at worst, avoid being labeled repulsive and not worth.
Gebrotz
Sheitals (Non-Indian)
White Shirts
Chulent 
Cholent isnt weird you kofer.
By the way...can anyone provide a link to a video or site where a proper discussion of Shtreimels i.e. the manufacturing, cost, etc., etc. takes place? Thanks.
kosher
shabbos
tefilin
Let's leave real mitzvot out of it. SHtreimel, the fact that secular culture is weird too is irrelevant. That is not the subject here.
I'm glad they had a picture of a regular Orthodox guy doing kaparot, instead of another stereotypical Chossid.
Themed Shaloch Manos
Unnecessary bans
Women who go the beach in bikinis and snoods or tichels
Bar/Bat Mitzvas Celebrations
Vaad HaTznius
Segulas
Nijabs are #9? Under CHICKENS?
Who'd have thunk it?
Barbara - interesting mixture of words.
It's Niqab, with a q. Full covering.
Hijab is the long, loose dress/caftan.
Bunch of naked guys soaking in a mikvah on Erev Shabbos pretending to become pure instead of helping their wives at home get ready for Shabbos...
Forbidding ones children to play with toys of non-kosher animals (or wear clothes with pictures of non-kosher animals).
- Leibum (sp?) release from/levirate marriage
- Rabbeinu Gershon's takana on opening other people's mail
- red heifer
- the use of blechs on shabbos
- a bunch of the Chukim...
And just a comment - snoods and bikinis? Has anyone ever truly seen such a thing? Because if they did, then somebody's missing the whole point of tsnius...
You only think shtriemlach are "weird" because you have no fashion sense, nebach!
See here:
Click this.
And here:
Click this, too.
Cholent isnt weird you kofer.
DovBear | 08.16.07 - 12:19 pm | #
Yes it is. What's even more weird than cholent is eating it on a hot Saturday afternoon.
Cholent is DOIRAISA... Kinda like Shabbas afternoon naps. Been there done that got the t-shirt....http://www.printfection.com/purimtees/
1-900-CHOLENT/_s_74958
Cholent isnt weird
Some cholent is weird.
Burying plates.
Now that is weird.
-----------------------
-----------------------
We Dutch are SOOOO lucky that the author of that blurble is totally unaware of the odder segments of Dutch Reformed.
I cannot remember which particular stick in the mud village, but the Dutch Reformed sect that lives there believes that if G-d wants two people to get married, he will make one of them pregnant.
Which is not all that different from how some of the Dayak tribes regard praemarital sex. Pregnancy means marriage.
I'm really surprised that the Catholics aren't on that list, though. They're normal?
Please, Forgive the editing:
I wear a kippa on this head of mine.
I daven mincha in the proper time.
And by havdalah in my pockets I put wine.
I put my shlock down, when it starts to rain.
I shake a lulav, which my neighbors think insane.
I like to bury my gefilte fish in chrein.
Oh there are times when I wear sneakers with my suit,
And there’s a time where we must send each other fruit.
Oh once a year I twirl a chicken over my head,
And there’s a time I go outside and burn my bread.
Oh once a month I go outside and bless the moon.
And once a year I have to eat all afternoon.
And there’s a time I pound my chest and sing a tune.
On Pesach I will drink four cups of wine, it’s true.
And then eat matzah till I have no strength to chew.
Then I eat horseradish until I’m turning blue.
I do the strangest things a man
Could ever do.
‘Cause I’m a Jew, I do that too.
LOL, G!
I think you managed to include everything I was thinking of offering.
Though I might suggest hiding the afikomen as being pretty weird. I mean, I just spent how many hours cleaning the house, and now you want to hide a very crumbly cracker in the sofa cushions? Bedikas chometz might fall into this category as well- with the weird factor increased by the inclusion of a candle and feather.
I'm absolutely flabbergasted that neither sky burial nor the towers of silence made the list.
Or, for that matter, mampalang - the ritual piercing of a man's penis (pilir) with a metal rod (the 'palang', or cross-bar), as practiced by some of the Dayak tribes. Now a tradition that is fading from the scene, alas. There is no stopping modernization.
Burkha
Sticking your tuchis in the air when praying
Rebbes
k'meiot
Eiruv
(a string that changes the geographical properties of entire cities!)
Cara,
I wish I could take credit.
http://www.nachumsegal.com/music...314&
music=34115
Dressing like an 18th century Eastern European while living in the ancient Middle Eastern country of your ancient Middle Eastern ancestors - and claiming that dressing like an Eastern European is carrying on the traditions of one's fathers
Kosher cell phones
The whole black pants and long sleeve white shirt all the time thing
Whatever it is that prompted my haredi friend to tell me, as I was getting ready to leave after visiting him in Flatbush, that I should "really think about getting a black kippah" to wear the next time I went there, instead of my mutlicolored (black, white, green, blue, and tan) srugi . . . and that I should really wear a white shirt (instead of the off-white and light olive ones that I wore), and I should wear a jacket, too
Ashkenazim who insist on using Yiddish words for everything Torah-related when perfectly good Hebrew terms exist and pre-date the Yiddish terms
The tendency/obsession with taking on more and more stringencies in order to "out stringency" eveyone else - meanwhile making fun of Christianity and Buddhism for their ascetic tendencies
Chulent
Tzipporah | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 12:05 pm |
Cholent isnt weird you kofer.
DovBear | 08.16.07 - 12:19 pm |
Well, Tzipporah is not Jewish. (Yes I know people are going to come after me with sticks lol but I am Orthodox and I only recognize Orthodox conversions) I don't mind cholent from time to time. Nothing weird about cholent.
Footnote for Tzipporah: You are an intelligent woman and you know a lot, but you are not Jewish.
I find Hassidim with white socks and funky knee length pants to be weird.
the Dutch Reformed sect that lives there believes that if G-d wants two people to get married, he will make one of them pregnant.
Do they specify which one? 
Chulent
Tzipporah | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 12:05 pm |
Cholent isnt weird you kofer.
DovBear | 08.16.07 - 12:19 pm |
Well, Tzipporah is not Jewish.
LOL - didn't we have this discussion before?
chollent is weird. Personaly I hate the stuff and I'm probably more jewish than any of you :-P
so rebbel, you find the ones with long black pants and black socks to be normal?
LOL - didn't we have this discussion before?
Yes. Yes we did.
And speaking of which, a recipe for that kofredikke dish itself is HERE:
http://atthebackofthehill.blogsp...nt-
cholent.html
Cholent is not necessarily Jewish. Even if the cook is a mot.
--------------------------------
And, shamelessly (!) trumpeteing my own humble blog's cholentish content again:
http://atthebackofthehill.blogsp...r-
oddities.html
Meh, what can I say? I'm a glutton.
so rebbel, you find the ones with long black pants and black socks to be normal?
halfnutcase | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 3:49 pm |
Not all of them. lol. They might be ben niddah. lmao.
Cholent does not make someone Jewish. However if you grow up in an Ashkenazi environment you are more likely to like cholent. If you are Sephardic you probably will tend to like lahmajun and koftas. If you grew up as a non-Jew you probably drool at the sight of bacon and cheese.
If you grew up as a non-Jew you probably drool at the sight of bacon and cheese.
Not so - what really gets me going is crispy duck, tiramisu, and Reese's peanut butter cups... yumm.
If you grew up as a non-Jew you probably drool at the sight of bacon and cheese.
Or raw herring, much more likely.
Also, good cheese should absolutely not be mucked up with bacon.
Processed cheese, on the other hand, is neither cheese nor edible. If you're dump bacon on it, you waste the bacon.
Kuftas, especially the vegetarian ones used in Malai Kufta, can be utterly delicious. I am drooling.
[And I'm fondly remembering Jeet Singh Rawat (z"l), whose version was sheer heaven.]
------------
Linguistic note: The word kufta is from Central Asian Turkish, and implies a pounding. Such as would be done to meat. Like kurma, the word was carried into the cultures that the Turks and Mongols invaded, and is now found in languages from Al Maghreb to Jolo.
mmm, pickled herring only, please. With allspice, onion, and a bitof bay leaf.
------------------
Hey, BoTH, ever notice how we always end up talking about food?
What did you think would happen when a bunch of Jews got together? 
Linguistic note: The word kufta is from Central Asian Turkish, and implies a pounding. Such as would be done to meat. Like kurma, the word was carried into the cultures that the Turks and Mongols invaded, and is now found in languages from Al Maghreb to Jolo.
The Back of the Hill | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 4:10 pm |
In Turkish it is called köfte. Ö=eeeeewww sound lol
Tying the left shoe before the right (or vice versa?); auctioning kibudim; saying "shkoyach" to someone after his aliya
let's not forget "selling" our chametz but keeping it locked up in a closet in our house for week.
Then buying it back.
I fail to see what could be considered weird about pickled herring and/or cholent. Particularly when consumed at 10:00am, and washed down with scotch (or bourbon, if you're me).
You guys are making me all psyched for shabbos!
let's not forget "selling" our chametz but keeping it locked up in a closet in our house for week.
Then buying it back.
Tzipporah | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 5:12 pm |
Tzip, you don't sell and keep the chametz in your own house. It is stored in someone else's house who is a non Jew.
No, rebel, most people keep the chometz in their house, and sell the room or cubbord its in in order to simplify the process.
They do NOT move it to the house of a non-jew. Infact, I've NEVER EVER seen anyone of anystripe do such a thing.
(actualy its in the shulchan aruch)
No, rebel, most people keep the chometz in their house, and sell the room or cubbord its in in order to simplify the process.
They do NOT move it to the house of a non-jew. Infact, I've NEVER EVER seen anyone of anystripe do such a thing.
halfnutcase | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 5:33 pm |
Never ever heard of FRUM people keeping the chametz in their house. It must be stored outside of your territory. Over this side of the Atlantic few days before Pesah all the community members gather in the community center and sell their chametz to non Jews.
that, rebel, is accomplished by selling the room or closet in which the chommetz is kept.
(actualy its in the shulchan aruch)
halfnutcase | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 5:33 pm |
The Tosefta however talks about a different kind of arrangement as far as sale between a Jew and a non Jew is concerned.
that, rebel, is accomplished by selling the room or closet in which the chommetz is kept.
halfnutcase | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 5:43 pm |
No, we have a non Jew who buys the chametz from the community rabbi and stores it somewhere outside the community.
Never ever heard of FRUM people keeping the chametz in their house.
rebel - please don't assume I'm ignorant just b/c I'm not you.
for example: http://www.aish.com/passlaw/
pass...ing_Chametz.asp
In my house, we just eat it up or give it to the food bank.
I fail to see what could be considered weird about pickled herring and/or cholent. Particularly when consumed at 10:00am, and washed down with scotch (or bourbon, if you're me).
Ah, but we Swedish Jews must wash our pickled herring down with hot coffee with cardamom in it. Which is why it is antithetical to kiddush.
well rebel, that certainly is not the norm.
And speaking of selling chometz, I wonder what the Dancing Camel Brewery does during peysach?
http://dancingcamel.com/cam/
From their "Our Beers" page: "CHERRY VANILLA STOUT (seasonal)
Ever wondered what would happen if you took a Sufgania (Jelly donut), mixed it with espresso and turned it into beer? So did we! With an aroma reminiscent of "black cherry", "Borkum Riff pipe tobacco" and "your dad's tweed jacket", this is a beer to enjoy on a cold Chanuka night as you settle into your leather easy chair by the fireplace. Catch it every Chanuka and whenever we're missing New England. "
Their account of the Pre-Passover Giant Keg Party for 5767 does not make clear if all the chometz was disposed of (see here: http://dancingcamel.com/cam/inde...d=26&Itemid=30)
. But they did raise over five hundred NIS for Meir Panim, a charity that does not provide beer all over Israel.
Even if chulent isn't weird, eating it during the week (on purpose, I mean making a batch to serve on Thursday, not warming up the leftovers because you are too lazy to cook, or haven't figured out how to send it to the starving children in Africa) is.
Beating hoshanot on the floor is weirder than the lulav and etrog parade. Throwing them on top of the aron after that is weirder still.
Bedikat chametz: the house is nearly chametz free (except for a few last things, which you would really rather be cleaning now rather than do bedikat chametz), so what do you do? You scatter chametz all over the house and then go find it precisely where you know it already is. Extra weirdness points for the equipment: candle, feather and wooden spoon.
Burning down your own neighborhood to protest something.
And I don't think girlfriends knitting srugies is weird. If they knitted a tallit katan for you that would be like making you underwear, and since the tallit katan is the source of the "hole in the sheet" myth, 'nuff said. You know what would be really weird, if your girlfriend kissed your tzitzit because she really wanted to wear them herself but was told not to.
Of if they knitted tefillin boxes, well tefillin are kinda phallic.
why on EARTH are teffilin phalic? They're cubes!
Actualy traditional sources say they're percisely the opposite, symbolic of a womb and the umbilical cord.
Lighting candles during Havdalah.
Buying a new (folding) knife for rosh hashana.
Not buying a knife as a gift (Litvaks and chassidim)
Requiring multiple shidduchim references.
dipping a finger in the leftover wine from havdala.
Mitzva Tantzes.
>Well, Tzipporah is not Jewish. (Yes I know people are going to come after me with sticks lol but I am Orthodox and I only recognize Orthodox conversions) I don't mind cholent from time to time. Nothing weird about cholent.
Footnote for Tzipporah: You are an intelligent woman and you know a lot, but you are not Jewish.
rebelwithacause | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 3:29 pm
I just saved this comment on my pc. The next time RWAC lashes out at someone who bashes her, she'll be reminded of this comment where she bashes Tzippora.
Never ever heard of FRUM people keeping the chametz in their house.
rebel - please don't assume I'm ignorant just b/c I'm not you.
for example: http://www.aish.com/passlaw/ pass...ing_Chametz.asp
In my house, we just eat it up or give it to the food bank.
Tzipporah | Homepage | 08.16.07 - 6:05 pm |
Now, now. Are you upset that I don't recognize you as Jewish? Take a deep breath and relax. There is nothing wrong with being a non-Jew. They have their own duties on this planet. Orthodox rabbis will never convert you because your hubby is a Cohen. So according to halacha you are a non-Jew. Why not accept this simple fact instead of jumping in my face? If you like you can be Bnei Noach and still serve G-d. There is no one "way" to
G-d if you want to serve him.
Your house is not Orthodox, it's Reform. You are not Jewish so you could eat hametz all Pesach if you like. You have no obligation to keep the Halacha as a non Jew.
p.s. Thanks, but you can save the Aish links for others, as I attended an Orthodox seminary and studied many texts for considerable years.
p.p.s If you want to learn about Judaism, have a more relaxed and polite tone about it. Try picking up a book about Derech Eretz and read about it.
RWAC, regardless of if you're right or not, you need to stop because you're hurting anyone with no positive benefit. Do you have to rub salt in tzipporah's eyes? What exact benefit do you plan to gain from this practice in cruelty?
Walking slowly around in a circle and bouncing ever so slightly at the knees, aka dancing in the outer circle at a wedding.
RWAC, regardless of if you're right or not, you need to stop because you're hurting anyone with no positive benefit. Do you have to rub salt in tzipporah's eyes? What exact benefit do you plan to gain from this practice in cruelty?
halfnutcase | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 7:19 am |
Look. If one is a non-Jew and thinks telling them that they are non-Jew is an insult, then that person has issues. Same with Jews who view the word Jew as a derogatory term.
I said there is nothing wrong being a non-Jew. Jews serve G-d in a certain way and non-Jews have their duties too. I have not used the term non-Jew as a derogatory term. I am not being cruel, I am only stating the facts.
What's the deal here? What's your relationship to Tzipporah? If she wants to defend herself she can do on her own? I think she is old enough? Or are some people on this thread still in the kindergarten phase?
Orthodox rabbis will never convert you because your hubby is a Cohen.
is that true? which is worse — a kohen married to a non-jew, or a kohen married to a giyoret?
and, btw, accepting that there's nothing bad about being a non-jew (as all good jews believe), what's insulting is negating someone else's identity. why do you think jews who are born in jerusalem, but have diasporan citizenship, get angry when their home countries don't identify their birthplace as "jerusalem, israel"? it's all about self-conception and other-imposition of identity.
but rebel, tzipporah KNOWS what we think of what her husband has done. There is not need to state it.
besides, I've been caught on the wrong end of this kind of insensitivity before, and I can't stand idly by while its perpatrated by someone else, especialy when that person is someone who I would expect to have the middos to be more sensitive to what is a difficult and nasty situation.
There is a reason why bidieved the marriage of a ger and a cohen is not seen as illigitimate, and the children are chalal, not mamzerim.
reminding tzipporah of the obvious serves NO practical purpose. She'll have enough reminders through her life without our adding to them. The situation at this point is virtualy unfixable, so you're just rubbing salt in wounds she already has. Please, have a mediocrum of kindness and mercy to this difficult situation.
*functionaly unfixable. Due to the stiff and inflexible rabbinate who is afraid to use the halachic tools at their disposal to fix situations like this that are otherwise unsolvable.
And thank you steg, you phrased it much better than I could.
>The situation at this point is virtualy unfixable, so you're just rubbing salt in wounds she already has. Please, have a mediocrum of kindness and mercy to this difficult situation.
Yo, halfnutcase.
Rebelwithacause is the most disgusting filthy hypocrite I've ever met.
Watch.
On Harry's blog:
http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2007...al-
teshuva.html
Read the comments made by RWAC at 2:37pm & 2:51pm. Watch how RWAC, a Baal Teshuvah throws a massive tantrum when someone says that BT's are Bnei Nidda. She responds with the lowest choice of language and practicaly curses out that commenter wishing him handicapped children.
And here, she has no shame whatsoever attacking Tzippora and debasing and denigrading her jewish status.
Rebelwithacause: Admit it. You are a two faced piece of trash. Go back to your secular ways. Orthodoxy doesn't need horrible beasts like you. When you're ready to act like a human being once again, we'll welcome you back.
ed, SHUT UP, and I say that with love.
Yes she's offended. And no ed, BNEI NIDDAH ARE A MYTHICAL CONCEPT, NOT AT ALL EXISTANT IN HALACHA!
It is garbage that modern cheredim use to abuse others and BTs, and therefore yes her anger is understandable and justified, even if not acceptable.
>Look. If one is a non-Jew and thinks telling them that they are non-Jew is an insult, then that person has issues....
......I am not being cruel, I am only stating the facts.
LOL!
Look. If one is a Bas Nidda and thinks telling them that they are Bas Nidda is an insult, then that person has issues....
.....I am not being cruel, I am only stating the facts.....
is that true? which is worse — a kohen married to a non-jew, or a kohen married to a giyoret?
and, btw, accepting that there's nothing bad about being a non-jew (as all good jews believe), what's insulting is negating someone else's identity. why do you think jews who are born in jerusalem, but have diasporan citizenship, get angry when their home countries don't identify their birthplace as "jerusalem, israel"? it's all about self-conception and other-imposition of identity.
Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 9:59 am |
Yes it is true. There is two women in my town who can't convert halachically because they are both married to Kohanim.
All those who are offended let me ask you this. Are you going to think I am being cruel if I tell you that you are not Afro American or that you are not Chinese? No? Cause, it's a fact and it's not cruel. You can't change your skin color. Is this bad? No. G-d created many races and people for a reason. He blesses each of them.
What's insulting is negating someone's identity?!? Are we on the same page as Orthodox? Orthodox Judaism only recognizes people as Jewish who are born to Jewish mothers or have converted halachically. Now if you are talking about Reform views then we are on a different page.
>Yes she's offended......
.....and therefore yes her anger is understandable and justified, even if not acceptable.
AndTzippora isn't offended?!
That's my point, nutcase.
Don't get all mushy, emotional and offended by someone calling you something, when you do the same on to others.
That's the height of arrogance of hypocrisy.
>All those who are offended let me ask you this. Are you going to think I am being cruel if I tell you that you are not Afro American or that you are not Chinese? No? Cause, it's a fact and it's not cruel.
Are you going to be offended that someone called you a Bas Nidda? Yes? Cause, it's a fact and it's not cruel.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E.
If she thinks she is jewish one day her great-great grandchildren will believe that they are jewish because they don't know their grandmother converted wrongly. they will attend Bais yaakov, be raised frum. marry your son. give birth to your grandchilren. And they will all be goyim. it happens all the time!
What's insulting is negating someone's identity?!? Are we on the same page as Orthodox? Orthodox Judaism only recognizes people as Jewish who are born to Jewish mothers or have converted halachically.
Who's talking about halakha? If she converted in a non-halakhic manner, than she's not halakhically Jewish. BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT.
That's why there's a middle ground between Halakhically Jewish and Not Jewish At All.
It's not like she woke up one morning and said "i feel Jewish, therefore i must be" — she learned about Jewish tradition and the Jewish people, and voluntarily bound herself up in our fate. Give her some credit at least for that!
Shuckling. I have seen some people davening/shucking away in airports and the others in the terminal look at them like they are totally insane.
"And just a comment - snoods and bikinis? Has anyone ever truly seen such a thing?"
Yes, all the time.
Steg,
That's why there's a middle ground between Halakhically Jewish and Not Jewish At All.
what is that middle ground? What is your source for asserting that it exists?
Important point: When you, or anyone else, creates a new category of Jew, you are actually undermining the unity of the Jewish people. As long as there is one standard that defines "Jew", then we can rely on concepts like Ahavat Yisrael, and Yisrael, Af al Pi Shechata..., but, as soon as you introduce these new categories, you create roadblocks to the blanket acceptance of every Jew as a brother or sister, because we are forced to ask questions like "What sort of Jew is she?" before we accept her as a brother. THis is very, very destructive to the Jewish nation.
Halfnutcase,
How do you go from "I have never heard of the concept" to "the concept does not exist Halachically"?
My favorite is the Hōnen Matsuri in Japan, where Japanese girls clebrete and worship a penis (albeit not mine).
http://images.google.com/images?...ch+Images&
gbv=2
http://images.google.com/images?...5%
8Dnen+Matsuri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hou.../
Hounen_Matsuri
This is a practice ed and his minion and rabbis (especially Elyashiv) should practice
Rebelwithacause should put a penis in his mouth instead of a foot
(As Dr Dre said a while back ‘with my dick in your mouth so my feet got to fit')
AndTzippora isn't offended?!
Not a bit. chortling that someone like ed is coming to my defense, but not offended.
Oh, wait, actually yes - offended that someone called me "Reform." Please. We're Reconstructionist. BIG difference in that we consider halacha binding.
what is that middle ground? What is your source for asserting that it exists? Important point: When you, or anyone else, creates a new category of Jew, you are actually undermining the unity of the Jewish people.
True dat. I totally agree.
Who's talking about halakha? If she converted in a non-halakhic manner, than she's not halakhically Jewish. BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT.
Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 11:33 am |
Well MY POINT that she is halakhically not Jewish. It's halacha so live with it. I am talking about halacha.
That's why there's a middle ground between Halakhically Jewish and Not Jewish At All.
Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 11:33 am |
Really? And there is a middle ground for kosher? So you have can half kosher lobster? And you can have middle ground for emunah? You can go put a Xmas tree next to a Hanukiah?
It's not like she woke up one morning and said "i feel Jewish, therefore i must be" — she learned about Jewish tradition and the Jewish people, and voluntarily bound herself up in our fate. Give her some credit at least for that!
Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 11:33 am |
I don't know what she does in her home. She can be writing anything on her blog. We also don't know if she really converted reform. Maybe she never converted. Maybe she did.
Maybe she is celebrating Easter together with Pesah? Do you know if she does or she doesn't? She is not someone who came to Judaism because she liked it to begin with, she came to Judaism cause she is with a Jewish man. She could have been attracted to Judaism before she met him, but she wasn't.
Fine, she read and learned a lot, good for her.
AndTzippora isn't offended?!
Not a bit. chortling that someone like ed is coming to my defense, but not offended.
Tzipporah | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 12:03 pm
LOL!!!
I don't know what she does in her home. She can be writing anything on her blog. We also don't know if she really converted reform. Maybe she never converted. Maybe she did.
By that logic...
Maybe she converted with the Rabbanut. And maybe she's not even married to a kohen.
And what business is it of yours?
Hater.
And what business is it of yours?
Hater.
Mar Gavriel | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 12:35 pm |
And you are her what? Her secretary? Her lawyer? Her lover?
Is there any women who will side with this Tzip? I wonder why it's only men? .lol.
I don't know what she does in her home...
That's obvious.
She is not someone who came to Judaism because she liked it to begin with, she came to Judaism cause she is with a Jewish man. She could have been attracted to Judaism before she met him, but she wasn't.
rebel - see, this is where, after writing how much you don't know about me, you then claim to know a lot about me, to the point that you write total falsehoods with an air of utter certainty. Sigh.
Look, I see you have a lot of insecurities about your upbringing, and a lot invested in being a "proper" BT.
But other than making yourself feel better about that, I'm not sure what point there is to your comments about me. Is there a point?
Steg,
That's why there's a middle ground between Halakhically Jewish and Not Jewish At All.
what is that middle ground? What is your source for asserting that it exists?
Important point: When you, or anyone else, creates a new category of Jew, you are actually undermining the unity of the Jewish people. As long as there is one standard that defines "Jew", then we can rely on concepts like Ahavat Yisrael, and Yisrael, Af al Pi Shechata..., but, as soon as you introduce these new categories, you create roadblocks to the blanket acceptance of every Jew as a brother or sister, because we are forced to ask questions like "What sort of Jew is she?" before we accept her as a brother. THis is very, very destructive to the Jewish nation.
Michael | 08.17.07 - 11:59 am |
Thank you for standing up as a halacha following Jew!!!
Regardign the non-Orthodox conversion argument:
I used to believe the Orthodox position was valid. However, after spending time in the Ortodox community and reading "rebel" Orthodox blogs, I'm starting to revise my position.
One big criticism is that the Conservatives, etc. do not live their lives by hallacha. Well, a number of people who go to the local Orthodox synagogue drive - and of those who don't many do not keep strict kosher, etc. So, what is the difference between "only the rabbis are observant in the Conservative synagogues and no one else" and this? (True, this synagogue is not in someplace like Monsey, where this is not the norm for Orthodox synagogues. Still, it's an Orthodox synagogue.)
I've found out about a lot of things I didn't know about the Orthodox (and even Charedi) worlds before. Child molestation, extramarital affairs, drug abuse, spousal abuse, financial corruption, etc.I thought the other movements were bad because they "don't believe the Torah is Divine" or some such thing. If the Orthodox really believed the Torah to be Divine, would these things even be issues in the Orthodox community? Would there even be what seems to be a bit more than a handful of Orthodox rabbis (RABBIS!) who have molested children?
Then there is the "other branches don't do halachic conversions" charge. What does a halachic conversion consist of?
1)Acceptance of the binding nature of halacha
2)Acceptance by a Bet Din comprised of three observant Jewish men
3)Circumcision or hatafam dam brit for males
4)Immersion in a kosher Mikvah
It seems to me that at least the Conservatives can fulfill all of these requirements quite easily. One could even say that the Reconstructionists could, too. (Reform, not really, since they don't believe halacha is binding.)
What, exactly, is the problem?
The halacha does not ask a potential ger what his or her interpretation of the Torah is, does not ask for the convert to accept Rambam's 13 Principles or a particular interpretation of them, it does not even ask the ger to answer "Who wrote the Torah?" It only asks the convert to state that he/she will accept the Torah as law and follow the halacha within it.
So, if a Bet Din is composed of three Orthodox rabbis, one of whom is later found out to be a child molester, are all of the conversions done by that Bet Din invalidated? After all, not all of the members were really observant (since I would think child molesting would violate halacha). Or, what if it is known by many, even some of the rabbis on the Bet Din, but it has been covered up (and it seems like a lot of these incidents have been covered up, so this is not far-fectched), are all of the conversions performed by this Bet Din in actuality invalid because one of the rabbis is known by some, but not the ger or general public, to be a child molester, and therefore in violation of halacha? (Please do not even say, "If the other rabbis knew he was molesting children, they wouldn't have him on the Bet Din. If they knew he was molesting children, the only place he should be is jail, and if they didn't turn him in, they probably wouldn't care whether or not he sat on a Bet Din.)
I'm very interested in answers to these issues. If Orthodoxy is not *really* the bastion of holiness and righteousness that it claims, presents itself, or aspires to be - any more so than the Conservative movement, then really, what is the basis for *validating* the Orthodox claim to sole legitimacy, especially in matters of conversion?
oh! oh! ROFL! Just read your blog, rebel. I guess < a href="http://rebelwithacause.wordpress.com/2007/08/15/am-i-g-d-that-you-fear-me/">frummer-than-thou is what you do for kicks. By all means, then, have at me. Doesn't bother me, and seems to amuse you.
Look, I see you have a lot of insecurities about your upbringing, and a lot invested in being a "proper" BT.
But other than making yourself feel better about that, I'm not sure what point there is to your comments about me. Is there a point?
Tzipporah | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 12:40 pm |
Sweetie, I don't have insecurities about myself, but thanks for your free psychoanalysis? lol. In fact I am not like yourself who sends male bloggers all lovey dobey emails and other stuff to get them to be on your side. We had a woman like you come to my community. She kissed up to the boys to get her means. She manipulated many people including few rabbis. For some reason she was not on good terms with many women. Later on people realized she was a fraud.If you think this strategy going to make you succesful in the Jewish world, then you are very wrong.
rebel, that was totaly uncalled for.
oh! oh! ROFL! Just read your blog, rebel. I guess < a href="http://rebelwithacause.wordpress.com/2007/08/15/am-i-g-d-that-you-fear-me/">frummer-than-thou is what you do for kicks. By all means, then, have at me. Doesn't bother me, and seems to amuse you.
Tzipporah | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 12:51 pm |
LOL. I am sure your title Midiate Manna makes a lot of sense too. Sort of like calling a blog; Hummer ice-cream.
then really, what is the basis for *validating* the Orthodox claim to sole legitimacy, especially in matters of conversion?
Mesorah, my good man, mesorah.
rebel, that was totaly uncalled for.
halfnutcase
Watch out, hnc, you wouldn't want to get caught in my net of feminine wiles...
You want to read about a woman who sacrified a lot things in her life to convert and become a frum Jewess? She is a fellow blogger. I have a lot of respect for her. She is a wonderful woman. Now that's one example of a someone who has real intentions of leading a Jewish life. She is an Afro American lady who converted Orthodox.
http://live-from-israel.blogspot.com/
Watch out, hnc, you wouldn't want to get caught in my net of feminine wiles...
I dunno I stood up for toby katz too, perhaps she sent lovey letters and I don't seem to remember them?
(many appologies to toby katz)
? If you like you can be Bnei Noach...
I detest this term. It is odious and patronizing.
Try picking up a book about Derech Eretz and read about it.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Or is it gandress?
If she thinks she is jewish one day her great-great grandchildren will believe that they are jewish because they don't know their grandmother converted wrongly. they will attend Bais yaakov, be raised frum. marry your son. give birth to your grandchilren. And they will all be goyim. it happens all the time!
Malkie, is it not evident from what she has written that Tzipporah is one hundred percent familiar with the issues? What could lead one to believe that her great-great grandchildren would not be as aware?
I also would suspect that IF her gr.gr.grs. were not aware of the issues, it would be extremely unlikely that they would marry into the tribe.
[Entirely aside from the unlikleyhood that the son of someone here would, at an extremely advanced age, rob the cradle and marry the great... great... grandchild of someone else here. Should that happen, there would be issues much more shwer than the dubious halachic status of that chasuna. And why, in mittn drinnen, do you worry about that happening?]
Better worry about today rather than future generations. We’ll all cross that bridge when we come to it.
That's why there's a middle ground between Halakhically Jewish and Not Jewish At All.
An extremely wide middle ground. From absolute borderline to within the gates. Let us say from the Uriah who got whacked by his king to Ruth who made a startling decision. Tzarich iyun.
she learned about Jewish tradition and the Jewish people, and voluntarily bound herself up in our fate. Give her some credit at least for that!
Davka like one of David’s ancestresses...... I forget which one..... surely some of the eppes brilyante chochemleite here can tell me who that was?
When you, or anyone else, creates a new category of Jew, you are actually undermining the unity of the Jewish people.
That new category is not existent. The categories of ‘God-fearers’ and Gerim already exist. As do several other categories of 'beinonim'.
>Is there any women who will side with this Tzip? I wonder why it's only men? .lol.
rebelwithacause
Rebeltzin doesn't seem to get it. We aren't siding with Tzip. Tzip can handle herself quite well. We are siding AGAINST rebeltzin. She roams around blogworld preaching and ranting about the frummies, while she's a disgusting piece of trash herself.
>In fact I am not like yourself who sends male bloggers all lovey dobey emails and other stuff to get them to be on your side.
There goes rebelwithahatefilledheart on another hate infested rant. Like someone on Harry's blog said - RWAC has a toilet bowl mouth.
Oh, wait, actually yes - offended that someone called me "Reform." Please. We're Reconstructionist. BIG difference in that we consider halacha binding.
I, on the other hand, am one hundred percent "Goy with Modern Orthodox Tendencies". I consider halacha methodologically determinative. Hence by no means ever likely to subject myself to any conversionary process – not committed enough for a Halachic conversion (Modern Orthodox), not inclined towards Reform by any means, and not well-read enough to consider other routes. Plus too damn’ Dutch (stubborn and pigheaded) to change myself and my current identity.
Just call me conservative.
So you have can half kosher lobster?
I believe that that would be the lobster with bacon and cheese on ONE side only. Negative times negative makes positive. If my faulty memory of mathematics serves.
Alternatively, tofu.
I have a friend that it happened to and it caused her a lot of trouble down the road. Her grandmother had a reform conversion. Her grandparents divorced when her father was young. Her father never knew about the conversion. Married a jewish girl. Had children. Became a BT. Sent his children to jewish schools. and only found out years down the line the whole story. He converted - but it creates so many issues.
And my mother teaches in a MO school and this comes up all the time where girls are children of third generation reform conversions and really don't know.
It is a very big issue!
Alternatively, tofu.
The Back of the Hill
Ah, tofu, the one little thing that comes between kasher l'pesach and serving something my (formerly)vegetarian SIL and BIL would eat. Half-kosher, indeed.
It's too late, people.
There are thousands of Jews out there who are not Jewish according to Halakha. So fine, they're not halakhically Jewish. They can't say kiddush for me, or get an alíya in my shul, or marry me.
But they think they're Jewish! They consider themselves Jewish! They have a Jewish identity! These aren't just non-halakhic converts; there all of the people who were born Jewish, and raised Jewish, except for that all-important halakhic reality. I'm sure many of them would give up their lives ‘al qidush hasheim! You can't just throw that in the toilet because they're missing the halakhic seal of approval!
I'm not saying that those of us who follow Halakha as it has traditionally been understood should violate that Halakha and just go around declaring non-halakhic or unjustifiably halakhic practices effective. Just please, if someone thinks they're your sibling, and treats you as a sibling, don't kick them to the curb!
You can't just throw that in the toilet because they're missing the halakhic seal of approval!
Perhaps, as a compromise, we should simply put them all in the IDF and let them die for us?
(covers head and ducks)
And my mother teaches in a MO school and this comes up all the time where girls are children of third generation reform conversions and really don't know.
It is a very big issue!
Malkie,
Not to diminish the issues in any way, but your own writing indicates that there is awareness of the issues and that there are processes for dealing with them.
Processes which did not exist in Ruth's day, I might add. And Ruth was, H-- yishmor (!), a Moabitess!
-----------------
On a relevant related note, what's that part in Meseches Shabbes, Seder Mo'ed, where Yehuda the Amonite asked if he could join the community?
To very loosely paraphrase: "Rabbi Joshua then said “and there is an identical prophecy that Yisroel will also be restored – but that has not happened! All these prophecies are pure speculation, including that mishegoss about the Ammonites”."
More or less.
BotH:
got any more specific references on that Ammonite story? all i remember encountering similar to that is the principle that Sanhheriv came and scrambled all the nations and therefore there *are* no ‘Amon or Mo’av (or today, Mitzrayim or Kena‘an) that the Torah's rules would apply to
RWC is one is evil. There was no reason to mention the fact that some sects in Judaism would not acknowledge her Judaism. It was not part of the discussion, she did not bring it on and she is probably familiar with the issue. But evil ones like RWC just have to rob it on her face.
I do not have the time to read RWC's blog but I am sure he/she is one of those Holier-Than-Thou BT because only BT are so judgmental toward other Jews.
So for you RWC, go and have bacon cheeseburger you must miss it, and if you are a woman go give someone a BJ, you must miss it.
Tzip, I know it does not mean much but can I call you sister ? or achoti ?
Are you going to be offended that someone called you a Bas Nidda? Yes? Cause, it's a fact and it's not cruel.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E.
ed | 08.17.07 - 11:07 am | #
There goes rebelwithahatefilledheart on another hate infested rant. Like someone on Harry's blog said - RWAC has a toilet bowl mouth.
ed | 08.17.07 - 1:25 pm
I love You Brother
Just please, if someone thinks they're your sibling, and treats you as a sibling, don't kick them to the curb!
Steg, The other side of the coin that you just promulgated is that if someone does not act like a Jew, then they are not Jewish because if acting like a Jew and thinking of yourself like a Jew gets you in, then, by definition, not acting like a Jew and not thinking of yourself like a Jew kicks you out.
We have a very fragile unity in the Jewish world that stems from the fact that there is an objective definition of Jew that even the most extreme Chareidi accepts - one who is born of a Jewish mother or who has Giyur K'Halacha. Therefore, even the most extreme Chareidi would agree that the most secular, unaffiliated Jew is Jewish. This is the glue that holds the Jewish people together! By making the statement you made above, you have eliminated that glue, because you have created a subjective definition of Jew, rather than an objective one. If, G-d forbid, this trend continues, we will be confronted with a fragmented nation that has no hope of unity.
that there is an objective definition of Jew that even the most extreme Chareidi accepts - one who is born of a Jewish mother or who has Giyur K'Halacha.
While it is true in theory in practice it is not. Did you ever wonder how come Ashkenazi Jews are light skinned, many are blond or have red hair and many have green/blue eyes.
Those are characteristics of Europe and not the middle east. The fact that we have so many with those features means that we interbred with the local Europeans. There were no mass conversions of Europeans to Judaism it mean that our mothers got raped in the pogroms, crusades etc.
The rabbis of those time, decided that the children of those encounters would be considered Jews because the rape was probably one time event but the woman had multiple encounters with her husband so by probability and other halachistic maneuvers it was decided the children are Jews even id they had the most Nordic features.
I am sure you did not learn it in Aish/Ohr…
Some people say that we are mixed with the Khazars but the Khazars were Asian and did not have European features.
Steg, The other side of the coin that you just promulgated is that if someone does not act like a Jew, then they are not Jewish because if acting like a Jew and thinking of yourself like a Jew gets you in, then, by definition, not acting like a Jew and not thinking of yourself like a Jew kicks you out.
Michael:
The Halakhic defintion prevents that; once someone is halakhically Jewish, they can't be 'dejewified'; all the halakhic ramifications of Jewishness apply to them.
There is no such glue as you describe. Look at the recent conversion scandals in Israel — hhareidim are delegitimizing modernorthodox giyur. Many people doubt the legitimacy of chabadian giyur, due to the messianic issue. If someone's acknowledged as being Jewish, then no matter how secular they are, they're still accepted as being Jewish — but for someone who's converting, no matter how strict the standards of their beit din are, there's always going to be someone who rejects them. There are some communities that reject giyur completely!
Michael
". . .if acting like a Jew and thinking of yourself like a Jew gets you in. . . "
Do you mean like if someone who wanted to become Jewish were to say something along the lines of:
"Where you go, I will go; and where live, I will live; your people shall be my people, and your G-d my G-d; where you die, will I die, and there will I be buried; HaShem do so to me, and more also, if anything but death part you and me." ?
Something like that?
got any more specific references on that Ammonite story? all i remember encountering similar to that is the principle that Sanhheriv came and scrambled all the nations and therefore there *are* no ‘Amon or Mo’av (or today, Mitzrayim or Kena‘an) that the Torah's rules would apply to.
Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) | Homepage | 08.17.07 - 2:18 pm | #
Steg,
I may have got my sources scrambled. I found the account of Judah the Ammonite in Masechte Brachos, 28 alef.
It is part of a confrontata between rabbi Joshua and Rabban Gamliel.
More or less: Rabban Gamliel did not absent himself for even one hour from the academy, for we hear that one a certain day Judah the Ammonite asks "may I enter the congregation?" (meaning 'may I wed a Jewish woman?).
By Rabbi Joshua it is okay, but Rabban Gamliel disagrees, saying that Ammon and Moab should know their place, merde! Rabbi Joshua counters that Sennacherib mixed up all the nations (to the extent that defining Ammon and Moab is questionable entirely). To which Rabban Gamliel responds that the prophecy that the Bnei Ammon will be returned to their place has come to pass. Joshua then throws in the clincher, arguing that speaking of such prophecies is moot - prophecy also says that the Am Yisroel will return, and behold, they hain't done so yet! Whereupon they allow Judah to enter the congregation.
The context of the passage is actually about the condemnation of Rabban Gamliel.
Do you mean like if someone who wanted to become Jewish were to say something along the lines of:
When traditional Jews quote a scriptural verse and give it a Halachic meaning, they are relying on a relatively unbroken chain of interpretation that dates back at least 2000 years and perhaps more. Thus, while they cannot neccessarily prove that this is the meaning that the author of the book intended, at least they are being consistent with the ways the readers of the book have read it for a very long time.
When you quote a book and give it an interpretation (and make no mistake, when you read a 3000 book with 2007 eyes and a 2007 brain, you are giving it an interpretation, even if you think that your reading is the "plain meaning of the text") that is at offs with the Halachic tradition, your are being a presumptuous fool.
The point: The Halacha tells us that the proper way to interpret Ruth is that she underwent a Halachic conversion. Other readings are less than irrelevant to this discussion.
Steg,
When Tziporah and her ilk stand before the community of Israel and ask to be accepted as Jewish, we must say to them: I am sorry. Being Jewish implies being the object of unconditional love and acceptance on the part of one's fellow Jews; it implies being the object of an unbreakable promise from G-d; it implies being endowed by G-d with a spiritual nature that is unlike any other created entity in the world, even that of the highest angels in heaven - a nature that is not subject to change or erosion. As such, one's behaviors cannot ("unconditional" "unbreakable" "not subject to change") affect one's being or not being Jewish. Therefore, all of the friendship, good feeling and common cause profession in the world does not make you one bit more Jewish, just as all of the enmity, bad feeling and renunciation of the common cause cannot make you one bit less Jewish.
It is only that G-d, in his infinite wisdom, granted to his people a path by which non-Jews can become Jewish. Only by following that path can one enter into the unconditional, unbreakable, not subject to change state that is Jewishness.
Monsey Pei Tzadik ( I hope its OK, Chaim G.) wrote:
Did you ever wonder how come Ashkenazi Jews are light skinned, many are blond or have red hair and many have green/blue eyes.
I never did. I always assumed it was a combination of conversion, intermarriage and rape, the exact proportions of which are both unknowable and irrelevant.
Your notion that the Chachomim required the argument of Rov B'ilot Etzel Habaal to establish the Jewishness of those born from Jewish mothers is ridiculous, and probably based on your misunderstanding secondary or tirtiary texts that you have read. The idea that a product of a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father is Jewish is at least as old as Ezra, and according to the sages of the Talmud, bibilical. You would have learned all this in Ohr or Aish, had you had the good fortune to attend either of those two admirable institutions (neither of which is my Alam Mater, I received my Semicha from the Central Lubavitch Yeshiva in Brooklyn).
Sorry for all the typos in the last three posts
Michael, upon reading those three comments, I cannot escape the impression that you are Christian.
ilk? Did you see "ilk" to that old woman?
(sorry, I just find that word unaccountably funny)
Being Jewish implies being the object of unconditional love and acceptance on the part of one's fellow Jews;
Ha! LOL... somebody better alert ed and DB and, well, pretty much the whole blogosphere...
at least as old as Ezra
hmm, you mean Ezra the descendant of our old friend, Pinchas? I can see why you'd want to bring him in on this discussion.
ok, enough fun. Time to go pick up the baby and make dinner. Gut Shabbos, all!
Is there any women who will side with this Tzip? I wonder why it's only men? .lol.
This woman would note that whatever one thinks of non-Orthodox conversions, going around telling people who are deeply devoted to Judaism that they're not really Jewish is a good way to make both them and their Jewish friends and relatives despise anything you might claim to stand for (or anything they might think you stand for). If it has to be said there are better ways to say it than others, but given the stakes I can't fathom a reason to volunteer it to a stranger who clearly already knows the deal. I have seen people take it with much less equanimity than Tzipporah, and for the reasons Steg gives, I can't say I blame them.
(I should also note that I personally take a very halachic view of the whole matter for my own part, but every time I hear someone make comments like yours it makes me instinctively wonder whether the whole system might be nonsense. It's one of, and maybe the only, thing that has that effect on me.)
I see you went to a KY (a lube) yeshiva, so let me rephrase my post. It is obvious that matrilineal descent is a rabbinival invention. During the first temple Kings like David Solomon and other married women of every description without any records of conversion.
Even in the times of Ezra, it was only the priests who were required to release their foreign wives, the rest of the population was not. When the rabbies decided to adopt the the matrilineal descent they looked at the torah to find justification. ((Kiddushin someplace) and they indeed found one.
Even it is like you imply that it was adopted in Ezra’s times, it is one of his many takanas, some which we follow and some which we do not.
One takana I am personally happy we do not follow is the baal kery (the one who had seminal emission) takana. If not, I would have to go to the mikvah every day and to purchase the mikva pass.
Ano no, I would not like to emit inside RWAC
Monsey -
You must have missed Michael's posting above.
"When you quote a book and give it an interpretation (and make no mistake, when you read a 3000 book with 2007 eyes and a 2007 brain, you are giving it an interpretation, even if you think that your reading is the "plain meaning of the text") that is at offs with the Halachic tradition, your are being a presumptuous fool.
The point: The Halacha tells us that the proper way to interpret Ruth is that she underwent a Halachic conversion. Other readings are less than irrelevant to this discussion."
According to that, we already had conversions done just as we do them today in Ruth's time. So, by the time of Solomon, they must have set up conversion courts (would have had to have been full-time, no?).
Michael:
there is no such unique spiritual nature that differentiates Jews from Non-Jews. it's all a matter of legal status as defined by Halakha. the same Halakha that tells us to treat others with compassion.
let me repeat: what you say about the legal mechanisms for becoming jewish are true; there are legal defintions for how things work, halakhically. but if someone considers themself your sibling, even if the adoption papers haven't been finalized properly, you don't kick them to the curb! be a mentsh!
"Reform." Please. We're Reconstructionist. LOL.
there is no such unique spiritual nature that differentiates Jews from Non-Jews.
Obviously, your theology makes that assertion. There is a very strong strain within Judaism that deeply disagrees with you. I think that the debate over non-Halachic conversions may split along that same line.
Monsey Pei Tzadik,
In the midst of all your sick humor, I wonder if you will have the guts to own up to your laughable errors about Chazal's use of the argument "Rov B'Ilot Etzel Haba'al."
Until you do that, its difficult to take anything else you say as something other than drivel.
Furthermore, I did not imply that matrilineal descent started with Ezra. I stated that thee is textual evidence for it as early as Ezra. I believe that matrilineal descent goes back to Sinai.
Of course, you have no way to refute that. The purveyors of the Halachic tradition were also capable of reading the book of Melachim and did not come to the conclusion that you reached. See Rambam, Hilchot Issurei Biah, for a full discussion on Giyur, including of the wives of Shlomo and Dovid.
Michael -
You keep mentioning Halachic and non-Halachic conversions. Why are Conservative conversions not Halachic, if they follow the prescribed steps (Bet Din, acceptance of mitzvot, brit, mikvah)? Reform conversions (which often leave out elements), I can see, but Conservatives use the same steps as the Orthodox.
Is there any women who will side with this Tzip?
Yes, bitch
Why are Conservative conversions not Halachic, if they follow the prescribed steps (Bet Din, acceptance of mitzvot, brit, mikvah)?
The weak reason:
The conservative movement has created a psuedo-Halachic process by which they have abrogated several elements of Halacha (for instance - allowing driving to Shul on Shabbat.) A convert that accepts the conservative version of Mitzvot is, by definition, not a valid acceptance, per the Halachic ruling that if a convert accepts the entire Torah except for one detail which he declares to be non-binding upon himself, the conversion is not valid.
The strong reason:
The Beit Din that serves as the representative of the people of Israel in accepting the convert into the congregation must be composed of Jewish males who are Kosher to serve in a Beit Din Shel Hedyotim. In order to serve on a Beit Din Shel Hedyotim, the "rabbi" (i put rabbi in quotes because it does not have to be a Rabbi, any Jewish male that fits the bill will do) must be observant of the the public elements of Halacha, most prominently Shemirat Shabbat and Kashrut. In addition, the Rabbi must profess belief in the basic principles of Judaism, including the revelation at Sinai. The vast majority of Conservative Rabbis do not fit that description. It should be noted, however, that, in certain cases, Conservative Rabbis do fit that description, and most halachic authorities would argue that a giyur of such a Rabbi should be treated as valid, at least L'Chumra.
"In addition, the Rabbi must profess belief in the basic principles of Judaism, including the revelation at Sinai."
I don't think it's a stretch to say that most Conservative rabbis believe that there was a revelation at Sinai, but don't necessarily believe that every word of the 5 books was transcribed at that moment. Who gets to decide what belief in what form of "revelation" is one of "the basic principles of Judaism?" Even Shammai got some street cred, after all.
the rishonim do.
Marisa,
that is a fair point, but, the fact is that many conservative Rabbis do not believe in revelation at all. A key point is that the official theology of the conservative movement is silent on the issue. As I wrote, many Rabbonim would be concerned that a Conservative Rabbi's Giyur would have validity, L'Chumrah.
From
http://www.bhcbe.org/conservative.htm
"Theology of Conservative Judaism
Conservative Judaism holds that the laws of the Torah and Talmud are of divine origin, and thus mandates the following of Halakha (Jewish law). At the same time, the Conservative movement recognizes the human element in the Torah and Talmud, and accepts modern scholarship which shows that Jewish writings also show the influence of other cultures, and in general can be treated as historical documents.
The movement believes that God is real and that God's will is made known to humanity through revelation. The revelation at Sinai was the clearest and most public of such divine revelations, but revelation also took place with other people - called prophets - and in a more subtle form, and can happen even today.
Many people misinterpret Conservative Judaism as being like Reform Judaism except with more Hebrew in its services; They believe that if one simply goes to a Conservative synagogue, then one is a Conservative Jew. This of course is not true, and the movement's leadership is strongly concerned with whether or not the next generation of Conservative Jews will have the commitment to lead an authentic Jewish lifestyle."
That description of Conservative theology is one that, unfortunately, does not match the thinking of many conservative Rabbis.
In my town, there are two conservative Rabbis, and neither believe that "the laws of the Torah and Talmud are of divine origin." At best, they believe that the Torah was a book written by humans in a state of "inspiration" and that some of the underlying principles of the book reflect a divine will.
I believe that matrilineal descent goes back to Sinai.
The purveyors of the Halachic tradition
They used the same trick your follow-clown use today, they take current minhags/takanas, claim they have unbroken tradition going way back into the past. Therefore what we havw today originated in Har Sinai. Then you have those Idiot BTs
who say the Aavarhom avinu wore shtreimel and the Israelites are gefilte fish in the desert.
You do not believe, don’t you ?
The unbroken tradition concept is bogus. The fact that there more then one opinion regarding facts (like the number of people who died in a particular mageifa) means that the tradition got broken in one point.
It says someplace that on the day Moses dies we lost 60,000 rules, so tradition started to break and to be corrupted even before we came to Israel. Basically Conservative rabbis do what Orthodox rabbis do. Make up laws and try to find a justification in older books
but given the stakes I can't fathom a reason to volunteer it to a stranger who clearly already knows the deal
Because she is a holier-than-thou BT, the ones that get me attacked by Chaim G for criticizing them.
I grew up with them, they used to come to my house for shobbos when I grew up. I never realized all the bad things in my own religion until they were reflected back at me by the newly minted recruits.
Come to think about it, the people who flew the planes on 9/11 were not Muslim who were raised in religious household, they grew up in a secular envirnment and become BT (their kind of BT) in their late teens – early twenties.
If she thinks she is jewish one day her great-great grandchildren will believe that they are jewish because they don't know their grandmother converted wrongly. they will attend Bais yaakov, be raised frum. marry your son. give birth to your grandchilren. And they will all be goyim. it happens all the time!
No, they will be Jewish. כיון שנטמעו נטמעו
Michael -
You can't invalidate the Conservative movement because some rabbis don't believe the Torah is Divine. If that is the case, then Orthodoxy is invalid as well, since Orthodox rabbis have been caught doing illegal and/or immoral things (child molestation, extramarital affairs, shady financial deals, etc.) which would seem to indicate that some members of the Orthodox rabbinate do not take the idea of a divine Torah seriously, either.
Regardless of how some rabbis view things, the Conservative movement has been pretty consistent in saying that it believes that the Torah is Divine and that there was a Revelation at Sinai. They might differ as to what that might mean, but they do believe that it happened.
As for Conservative converts, they agree to accept the mitzvot as binding upon them, as they are with all Jews. To invalidate their conversions because the Convservative movement has different interpretations of some of the mitzvot is just stupid. Think about those who are born Jewish. Many times they move to other interpretations of halacha from those which they were raised in. As they learn more, they might conclude that what they learned earlier is not the best for them (or that it was incorrect). Orthodoxy is filled with Jews from the Reform and Conservative movements who changed their minds about their movements' views. Orthodoxy itself is filled with Orthodox Jews who have moved toward much stricter practices than the halachicaly acceptable practices they once lived by. Some of these people even consider their past (Orthodox- approved) practices to be wrong.
And, there are Jews in the Conservative and Reform movements who left Orthodoxy, as well.
People change and people grow. Given that many Conservative converts have eventually undergone Orthodox conversions shows that Conservative converts will grow and develop just like any other person would. That these people eventually choose an expression of Judaism different from the one that they started with shows that their commitment to Judaism and their intentions for living a Jewish life cannot be judged solely upon the movement that they began in.
It is silly to judge the totality of a Conservative convert based on the movement. The Conservative movement does not define the convert, the person and his or her relationship with G-d does. That's like me saying that all Orthodox Jews are heretics because some Lubavitchers believe that their deceased Rebbe is the Moshiach and talk about him in terms disturbingly close to Christianity. Orthodox congregations still count Lubavitchers as Jews. No Orthodox organization has issued a statement saying that Messiachist Chabad practice "is not Judaism" the way they did with the non-Orthodox movements. One could take that silence as tacit approval and acceptance, therefore invalidating Orthodoxy as a whole.
However, we don't do this to Orthodoxy because we know how ridiculous it is. However, it's just as ridiculous to do it to converts who come to Judaism through the Conservative movement.
Michael -
By the way, I wasn't calling *you* stupid when I wrote, "To invalidate their conversions because the Convservative movement has different interpretations of some of the mitzvot is just stupid."
I was referring to dismissing, out of hand, people who very well might adopt practices stricter than the movement they converted with. I was also referring what I brought up in the following paragraphs about Orthodoxy's making the assumption that any given Conservative convert can be fully defined by his or her movement.
There are conservative converts out there who are shomer shabbat, keep kosher, and believe the Torah is divine. They are usually people who in practice are mostly Modern Orthodox, but in belief are in between Orthodox and Conservative - disagreeing with certain aspects of both, agreeing with others.
I do, however question the Conservative rabbis who state things like those you that you mentioned. If they don't believe in the divine nature of the Torah or in the revelation at Sinai . . . it sounds like some other movement would fit their beliefs a bit more than Conservative. At the very least, they shouldn't serve on a conversion bet din.
Oops! That *was* me who wrote the Anonymous 08.21.07 - 8:50 am clarification post above. I forgot to enter my name in the box.
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