Ick. Since when do we allow links to Yeshiva World? I think this issue needs to be addressed at the next editorial meeting.
Sorry - looked for the story after commenter cited - could not find it in JPost - figured YW would be loving it and found it there with no problem- if you find another link I will gladly replace it.
sorry to be ignorant, but why would one's conversion by a halachic authority be overturned?
according to the article - please the link - this is what was determined in Israel regarding this particular Rav
Go to Steg's blog for relevant links.
Then shake head and wail.
Steg's link ? can you help a sort of newbie out?
“So now I am no longer Jewish and my children are no longer Jewish because my conversion becomes invalid retroactively?”
It makes sense on an intellectual level. The child wasn’t born jewish, never chose or consented to being jewish, and as an adult, rejects living life as a jew- essentially, confirming that the initial conversion was never consented to and therefore invalid.
Anon,
So where do you draw the line? Shabbos is one, granted, central mitzvah. What is she stole a shirt from the GAP? What is she covetted her neighbor's husband and the thought police found out. What if she was not respectful to her parents? No one is able, even when they try everyday to do the best they can, to keep all 613 - which would negate their being Jewish?
“So where do you draw the line?”
This problem wouldn’t be too tough to overcome. Just like virtually every single halacha and secular law, a standard could be set, whatever it may be, with a certain degree of subjectivity involved.
I'm not taking a position one way or the other, but the Chareidim have made it clear from day one that they don't accept Rav Drukman''s conversions. This is hardly a surprise to anyone.
The jpost article is here:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Sat...icle%
2FShowFull
Thanks Rivky, I am changing editting the post. DB might fire me from this high paying job if I keep the YN link there.
Oy. This is so ridiculous.
The soft hum of thew CPAP was lulling me to sleep when the sapphire glow announced that I was about to get a Divine Visitation. Unfortunately, the red tinge at the margins meant that the Visitor was Right-Wing Fundamentalist Orthodox G-d. Rats. I was hoping it would be Laid-Back Egalitarian Feminist God, and His/Her Holy Bong. Well, can't always have what you want.
"CA" aboomed the Divine Voice. "You're off the hook."
"Huh?" I answered in my usual articulate manner.
"I mean all those pork and sheelfish entrees you prefer at the lunch buffet. I mean your arriving at shul just in time for kiddush. I mean your general and pervasive violation of every halacha known to Man. Every ritual one, anyway. Well, I don't care anymore."
What? The KBH doesn't care about the sins of a Jew? What's going on here.
"So continued the KBH, "What do you know about the Countess X__?"
"Wow," I replied, "My mom told me that story. Countess X__ was a beautiful Polish noblewoman who was so entranced by Mendel Y___, the family's Jewish accountant that she converted to Judaism out of love and became my many-generations removed great grandmother on my mother's side. The family story is the the Vilna Gaon did the conversion. How did you know about our unusual family history?"
"Nudnick," replied the Holy One, "I'm G-d, remember? I know everything."
Why do you mention Countess X___?" I asked.
"Because," Said Hashem, "about 25 years after she supposedly "converted," she was seen attending services in a Roman Catholic Church. You know what that means?"
"Not really," I said.
"You obviously haven't been reading the proceedings of the High Rabbinical Court of Israel," G-d look at me with reproach. "They have ruled that when a convert stops observing halacha as they interpret it, then the conversion is invalid, even if it was performed by the most distinguished rabbi in the Community.
"Countess X___ violated halacha by attending that church service. The fact that it was the funeral mass for her father is no excuse. Her conversion was invalid, and don't give me any nonsense about the Gaon of Vilna having performed it, it doesn't matter. She became s shiksa again, all her children were goyim, and so were their children right down and including your mother. Which means, CA, you are NOT an apikoris. You are a GOY. A Sheygetz.
"So go and have a good time throwing another shrimp on the barbie. But I'll bet it won't be as much fun, because you won't be breaking any rules anymore....."
Suddenly the sapphire wavered and the red tint disappeared.
"Pay no attention to what was just said, CA..." The voice was similar, but with a more melodious gentle qaulity. OY, looks like I get to chat with Laid Back Egalitarian Feminist God after all. There may only be One God, but when He/She suffers from multiple personality disorder, a person might as well be a polytheist.
"CA, you don't live in Israel and your Conservative rabbi certainly doesn't follow the rulings of the High Rabbinical Court of Israel. So as far as you are concerned, Countess X___ had a valid conversion, and you are still Jewish. Which means that you'd better not be buying any shrimp for your next barbecue."
At that point the alarm went off, which was fine with me, because after the shock of the revelation of Right-Wing Fundamentalist Orthodox G-d, I really wasn't in the mood to smoke dope with Laid-Back Egalitarian Feminist God. On the other hand, Laid Back Egalitarian Feminist God was right. Why should I care what the High Rabbinical Court of Israel rules?
TikunOlam:
relevant links at the top of here
Wow Steg,
So now that I too will join the ranks of Jews with non-Jewish foster children that one day I may opt to adopt - maybe there is no point in conversion? Huh. And here I was all stressed out about that.
Why should I care what the High Rabbinical Court of Israel rules?
If there is something "magical" to halachah (an interpretation of the mitzvot distinct from the "magic" of bare bones mitzvot), then perhaps it matters. If there is no "magic" in halachah, then indeed, it shouldn't matter how they rule on conversion.
I mean really, when they deny the magic, they emasculate it.
The article is very sparse on details. My first reaction is that this is a more evidence of the narrow minded thoecratic tendancies of the Rabbanut. But before judging, I'd like to see the facts and the JPost article doesn't provide them.
But if the facts are as they appear to be on the surface, maybe this is a good thing. Maybe the government will finally take action and strip the Rabbanut of having the final word on who is a Jew. Let the charedim keep their own lists if they want. Why should they have the right to apply their standards to all of Israel?
I have been told by my husband who knows more about this story that this Rav may have been suspect for quite a while for accepting bribes and allowing conversions without the appropriate coursework and completions of whatever kinds of exams that are required. But my heart really goes out to those who converted through this Rav, not knowing the controversy that surrounded him or would surround him and now have to question whether they and/or their children will be recognized as Jews in Israel. Is it still true that if there is no Orthod conversion in Israel, the state will not accept the person as Jewish for the sake of a marriage license?
According to the link, this woman never lived an Orthodox lifestyle. How could her conversion be valid? It is not a question of breaking one law here or there, she "never adhered to Orthodox Jewish practice after her conversion"
At the same time, it says that only valid rabbinic court could decide who is and who is not a convert... That would make Ruth and David not Jewish. Afterall they did not convert via rabbinic court.
It makes sense on an intellectual level. The child wasn’t born jewish, never chose or consented to being jewish, and as an adult, rejects living life as a jew- essentially, confirming that the initial conversion was never consented to and therefore invalid.
My understanding of the process when dealing with child conversions is that just prior to bar/bat-mitzvah age, the child is asked whether accept being observant. This is to the point of them consenting as "adults" that the conversion is valid.
In general, I believe that under Orthodox conversion procedures, (which of course vary), the convert is expected to observe the majority of the "major" mitzvos (Shabbos, Kashrus, Mikvah) and strive to keep growing in their observance. For adults, it is my understanding that if a convert is sincere at conversion and spends some time being observant, (say 3-5 years [I made up that number]) the conversion "sticks" and the convert counts as Jewish, even if they are no longer observant. However, it can be shown that the convert never intended to be observant, like she was spotted eating a McRib the day after her conversion, the conversion would be retroactively invalid.
I have been told by my husband who knows more about this story that this Rav may have been suspect for quite a while for accepting bribes
I'll believe that when there's proof. I have known Rav Drukman by reputation for years, through friends & close family connections, and have met him a couple of times as well. I find myself hard-pressed to believe such rumors and suspect they're totally unfounded and started by those who oppose the Conversion Authority. Please be careful about spreading them before you know more.
But my heart really goes out to those who converted through this Rav, not knowing the controversy that surrounded him or would surround him
Rav Drukman wasn't doing these conversions privately. He is the head of the Israeli government conversion authority, which was supposed to be a compromise between the goverment and the Rabbanut. Unfortunately, despite agreeing to the compromise, the Rabbanut rarely cooperated and threw enormous roadblocks in their way.
s it still true that if there is no Orthod conversion in Israel, the state will not accept the person as Jewish for the sake of a marriage license?
Yes, and it's even worse now, since the Rabbanut is insisting that it has to be a conversion by Charedi standards.
Here's the facts of the case:
http://myobiterdicta.blogspot.co...boils-
over.html
YH,
you are correct of course
DB - want to edit out that comment for me? I certainly am the last one to want to make assumptions about Rav Drukman and the conversion authority before anything is proven.
So basically my stressing about converting a foster child that I would opt to adopt is pointless. No matter what I do, the child won't be considered Jewish in some circles so I might as well just worry about my own circles. The child can make his/her own choices later on.
TO,
There are several proposals on the table in Israel but the religious parties keep blocking them. One is simply that there would be a separate Jewish track for non-Orthodox conversions - their identity cards would say "yehudi lefi hamemshala" - "Jewish according to the government."
Those Jews would have the full rights and privileges a Jew gets in Israel, except that the Rabbanut won't allow him or her to marry under their auspices. But they'd still be able to have a civil marriage and have a private religious ceremony of whatever denomination they prefer.
But it's going to be a battle to get it passed.
Check out the call to arms from Rav Benny Lau and the response by Rav Yoel Bin-Nun.
Both on ynet.co.il in the Yahdut section.
Its time for us to stand up to the charedim.
Still not enough outrage. When a book gets banned, suddenly 100 bloggers are up in arms for months and months standing up for what is right. But when thousands of people are retroactively willy nilly proclaimed by this court to not be Jewish some 10 years after their conversion, one has to go around begging for a reaction? come on people.
http://www.ynetnews.com/
articles...3539259,00.html
National Religious Party Chairman MK Zevulun Orlev announced Sunday he plans to propose a bill calling for stripping the rabbinical courts of all authority pertaining to conversions.
"The High Rabbinical Court's political, anti-Zionist ruling about conversions proves we have no choice but to form alternative conversion courts, presided by rabbis who served in the IDF and who pray for the state," he said.
According to the link, this woman never lived an Orthodox lifestyle. How could her conversion be valid? It is not a question of breaking one law here or there, she "never adhered to Orthodox Jewish practice after her conversion"
But did she live a Jewish lifestyle and adhere to Jewish practice after her conversion?
Orthodoxy is but one set of standards, and not the be all and end all, or even the necessarily correct one.
One could be shomer Shabbat and shomer kashrut - but still not adhere to Orthodox practice (in terms of dress, etc.).
There are several proposals on the table in Israel but the religious parties keep blocking them. One is simply that there would be a separate Jewish track for non-Orthodox conversions - their identity cards would say "yehudi lefi hamemshala" - "Jewish according to the government."
I half agree with this and half disagree.
While I agree this should be done, my disagreement is that it should be limited to non-Ortho conversions. Ortho and charedi gerim should be listed the same way.
This is an issue of the government accepting someone as Jewish.
Thus, all gerim and all Jews should be "yehudi lefi hamemshala." It would be up to the synagogues and various communities if they will accept them in their minyanim or membership rolls.
Currently, the identity cards just say "Jewish" and the charedim argue that these people aren't really Jewish. If it says "Jewish by government standards" then the charedim can't really argue about it -since the government standards aren't the same as theirs.
The government will accept non-Ortho and Charedi gerim as "Jewish by government standards," so it should say that for all - gerim and born-Jews alike.
National Religious Party Chairman MK Zevulun Orlev announced Sunday he plans to propose a bill calling for stripping the rabbinical courts of all authority pertaining to conversions.
May it happen soon!
“My understanding of the process when dealing with child conversions is that just prior to bar/bat-mitzvah age, the child is asked whether accept being observant. This is to the point of them consenting as "adults" that the conversion is valid.”
Lets be honest. a 13 year old, living with and raised by his parents, with no means of supporting himself, cannot really “consent” to remaining jewish. As if there is an alternative to someone in such a position. Its duress, pure and simple. And from what we know today about child cognitive development, a 13 year old is still a minor.
This has been happening in the UK for a long time, largely because the community is orthoprax but the Beth Din is Charedi. Every so often some kids find that our supine Chief Rabbi (think the Lion in the Wizard of Oz) has decided that they can't go to school with all their friends. People get very cross and then the parents decide to drop it for the sake of the child, who is then lost to the community (as are the parents, their parents, their siblings etc) for ever.
It is heartening to see that our Gedolim recognise the value of the life and peace of mind of ordinary Jews, and extend a welcome to the non-frum which engages them and encourages them to allow God and Judaism into their lives. Can I come back through the looking-glass now?
Lets be honest. a 13 year old, living with and raised by his parents, with no means of supporting himself, cannot really “consent” to remaining jewish. As if there is an alternative to someone in such a position. Its duress, pure and simple. And from what we know today about child cognitive development, a 13 year old is still a minor.
I was just reporting what I understand to be the normative practice for child conversions. Though I am confused about your point. If someone is raised in an observant home, chances are they will choose to stay observant when they are presented with this choice at 13. I don't see where you see duress? That they secretly want to say they don't want to be Jewish, but they are afraid to say that? If at 18 or 21 they decide to be non-observant, my understanding is that they would still count as Jews. If at that point they choose to "renounce" their Jewishness, I think they will still be counted as Jews, though I am not 100% sure about that, although at that point, I don't see why it would matter to them.
To those that did not choose to Judaism, you should all worry. Today this seems like a mere academic debate...where to draw the line on an acceptable level of mitzvot observance for someone making the choice. But, it's a slippery slope. These "standards" will eventually start being applied to you. I would argue that it already is in certain circumstances. You just don't feel it enough at this point because it's only on the fringes. When it starts impacting your ability to participate (have an alyiah in the Shul you've always attended, take a leadersip position in the community, have your children be accepted to a day school without your linage being scrutinized, marriage, worrying about what your neighbor saw you do one Shabbos), you will wish that you fought harder to protect those choosing to be part of the Jewish heritage.
Though I am confused about your point.
e-kvetcher | Homepage | 05.06.08 - 2:41 pm | #
The child was never jewish because the consent at 13, was never really consent. Not because the child secretly wanted to leave Judaism, but because a 13 year old child in such a position is incapable of making an informed and voluntary decision. If as a young adult he rejects judiasm, I think its pretty clear that the person was never jewish to start with and it only was manufactured out of circumstances.
There is no reason why a child who neither was born nor consented to being jewish should be considered a jew.
. . . but because a 13 year old child in such a position is incapable of making an informed and voluntary decision.
Such as taking on the yoke of mitzvot?
We should up the Bar Mitzvah age to 18 then, no?
>but because a 13 year old child in such a position is incapable of making an informed and voluntary decision.
I was just trying to understand where you saw 'duress' which is the term you used.
”. . . but because a 13 year old child in such a position is incapable of making an informed and voluntary decision.
Such as taking on the yoke of mitzvot?
We should up the Bar Mitzvah age to 18 then, no?
Anonymous | 05.06.08 - 3:54 pm | # “
If we wanted to be honest and accurate, it would definitely be older than 13. There is a reason the law says that a 13 year old cant “consent” to sex.
I was just trying to understand where you saw 'duress' which is the term you used.
e-kvetcher | Homepage | 05.06.08 - 4:02 pm | #
Not in the traditional sense of “threat of harm” but in terms of the pressure and force of the child’s circumstances rendering him completely unable to realistically make a willing decision.
Be careful The rabbonim may decide that your grandmother had additional equipment and now must be considered to be your grandfather.
One could be shomer Shabbat and shomer kashrut - but still not adhere to Orthodox practice (in terms of dress, etc.).
Exactly. There are many ways to flesh out religious Jewish practice and they don't have to be "standard halachic" ways. A halachic lifestyle is one that can only be reasonably practiced in an environment which enables that kind of observance. Most of us don't live in that kind of environment and necessarily, we have to take things into our own hands and create a practice for our own particular environments. It's not only unreasonable to bind everyone to practices that they cannot reasonably do, but in the long run, it is harmful to klal Yisrael.
They need to put the magic back into it too.
They also need to support individuation more too, IMO. We are not all the same.
DovBear: "Ick. Since when do we allow links to Yeshiva World? I think this issue needs to be addressed at the next editorial meeting."
First genuine roflmao moment of the day.
TikunOlam: "No one is able, even when they try everyday to do the best they can, to keep all 613 - which would negate their being Jewish?"
What about destroying a city turned to idolatry? How does anyone live down Hollywood's continued existence?
CA: "..."
Second roflmao of the day.
That was good.
My take is that being Jewish, or Christian, etc. is like being a nationality. Nationalities need no nation of dirt under them, they just need a group identity, and no, that doesn't make the KISS Nation qualifying for UN membership.
Now imagine for a moment if you converted someone to Christian under Catholic auspices. I guarantee you the Catholics, nutty as fruitcakes as their leadership can be in a CoE-without-social-graces way, will not a dozen years later say you're still a Jew. And no, that doesn't mean their conversions are prized less. They prize them enough to hold them to mean that when you said yes, or I do, or something in Latin if that's the church you went to, you meant it at the time even if you do the Catholic version of OTD.
Put another way, imagine granting American citizenship, then revoking it because the new citizen slowly slacked off on speaking English, got a couple parking tickets, and didn't file their taxes correctly every time.
Converting is sort of like getting citizenship is a floating nation. A nation of humans, who if they are wise and humble will recognize their own imperfections and not be so cruelly anal over the later behaviors of inductees.
If you then go and try to weld Islam to Judaism, hey, you can call yourself whatever you want, but you're functionally moved out of Judaism much like those people born to Jewish families who decided books full of spells from Borders wicca section were more glamorous and less expensive than an Artscroll siddur.
However, it's up to your community if in the end when you go to your compost heap that they decide to claim you as their own. There's a lot of Jews who never practiced and ate ham and after death were accepted as "one of the gang" avidly because they were famous or did something important or the Nazis wanted to kill them or something like that. The Christians claim a lot as their own who also shop the wicca section of Borders which is only because while bibles can be had for free from any hotel thanks to the Gideons, they are bloody boring and don't come with pictures or promises of making that cute boy in home room fall madly in love with you.
Very complicated but in the end, very painful and very schismatic affair that is only exposing more archaic and unforgiving thinking and going to make more Jews angry with each other. I pray that this is better handled and repaired down the road but like with CA it doesn't matter a hill of beans to me really on a personal level.
But then, if all we cared about was our narrow interests, what would we be worthy of in G-d's eyes?
Wicked, totally wicked, suitepotato. LOL.
No less than a dozen other women asked for webaddress of the place where I bought my witchy skirt that I wore to work today. They want one too! LOL. See? Witchiness is just in our blood.
Judaism, generally as most people practice it, is really geared toward masculine spiritual development, and women's spiritual need to be witchy is not taken into any serious account. Bad, very bad.
The rabbis may heartily disagree with me, but it is very good for women to be witchy.
Carefull, Liorah, one of these days I just may do a megapost on Malayo-Polynesian black magic and superstitions.
That could be interesting.
Raven hair and ruby lips
Sparks fly from her finger tips
Echoed voices in the night
She's a restless spirit on an endless flight
Wooo hooo witchy woman, see how
High she flies
Woo hoo witchy woman she got
The moon in her eye
She held me spellbound in the night
Dancing shadows and firelight
Crazy laughter in another
Room and she drove herself to madness
With a silver spoon
Woo hoo witchy woman see how high she flies
Woo hoo witchy woman she got the moon in her eye
Well I know you want a lover,
Let me tell your brother, she?s been sleeping
In the devil's bed.
And there's some rumors going round
Someone's underground
She can rock you in the nighttime
Until your skin turns red
Woo hoo witchy woman
See how high she flies
Woo hoo witchy woman
She got the moon in her eye
Unfortunately for many of the posters on this blog Judaism has rules, and whether you think they are fair or not is not up to you. It doesn't really matter if you're intelligent and have opinions about stuff, no one cares. What you say does not go. So let's summarize how we got to the halachos of Gerus. In the beginning G-d created the world. Many years later He gave the Torah, both Written and Oral to Moshe on Har Sinai. Moshe then taught it to Yehoshua who taught it to the Zekainim, etc... Now, in this said Torah we have laws that we frum Jews abide by. One of the laws is called Gerus. Gerus must be done properly. How do you do Gerus properly? http://www.aish.com/smicha/Docum...o%
20Judaism.rtf Ayin Sham. So yes, if Gerus is done improperly then retroactively the woman in the article and her children were never Jewish. But I'm not going to go crazy just because she's not Jewish. She was never Jewish. Boo hoo. Life goes on because we believe in Hashem and His Torah. It doesn't matter if someone might think that it's unfair to undo a conversion. Your opinion doesn't count.
... like anyone cares what you think either
Apparently I've struck a nerve. Oh well. It's not what I "think", that's the point. It has nothing to do with what my opinion is or anyone elses. The Torah gives us rules that we (or apparently in this space just me) abide by. Whether you like them or not.
The Torah gives us rules that we (or apparently in this space just me) abide by. Whether you like them or not.
Which explains, of course, why people have been arguing for over three thousand years about the rules.
Last time I checked, there was still no unanimity.
Despite gedolim whose personal examples of rotten leadership are more than balanced by their brilliant abstraction.
Can we at least all agree to stone some idolaters?
Agreed.
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