If you gut G-d and everything metaphysical out of the religion it will obviously be hollow!
I don’t necessarily disagree with this post, but it is confusing the concepts of “legal fiction” and “antiquated science/superstition.” The idea of affirming vs swearing is more akin to the concepts of pruzbul or heter iska, and really has nothing to do with your example of hand washing.
The idea that our actions cause something we can't see to happen in a world we can't visit is something most of us outgrew a long time ago. No sensible person thinks that way.
“you're swearing to tell the truth in a formal, legal, and social-contract-binding way, but that oath doesn't have halachic value. It's just an end-run around our own traditons and values.”
That’s incorrect.
The affirmation is Halachicly binding, its just not considered a “Shevuah”
Traditionally Jews would never make a “Shevuah” in a Jewish court even if it meant losing the case.
So truth be told, your example proves that there was always more to the religion the just practical laws, the opposite of the point you’re attempting to make.
Think, please be aware that I didn't write this post (though I agree with the theme)
I agree with Think.
You're examples are not consistent. A formal Jewish Oath has severe halachic ramifications therefore we avoid the halachic oath. This does not mean you could lie! You are still bound to tell the truth just not in the Halachic Oath fashion.
Hand washing is a completely different situation. For the Kabbalists it is very meaningful, for the rest of us it is a halachic imperative to wash our hands EVEN IF WE DO NOT FEEL LIKE WASHING. And therein lies the secret, Halacha mandates adherence when we do not wish to comply. Therefore Halacha prevails even when our common sense does not.
Your overall point is spot on. Too many of us perform mitzvos unconsciously and that is a tragedy. Studying mussar, in particular Messilas Yesharim can help with mindful Torah observance.
But do not be fooled into thinking this is a "Jewish Problem". Across the world people are trying to connect with their lives and actions more than ever before. Just as we should be doing.
E. Fink...
Spot on
Azoi,
“The idea that our actions cause something we can't see to happen in a world we can't visit is something most of us outgrew a long time ago. No sensible person thinks that way.”
Then if you do something wrong, all you have to do is kill everyone the knows about it, and its as if it never happened.
the premise is incorrect - washing hands is not for cleanliness - it has to do with hilchos tumah.
Then if you do something wrong, all you have to do is kill everyone the knows about it, and its as if it never happened.
You're not a smart person. Don't worry. I am sure your father-in-law has money.
"outgrew"
pathetic.
Funny how Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Khazon Ish never "outgrew" it.
You flatter yourself.
I am sure your father-in-law has money.???
And your mother-in-law is 5 foot 11
Do you care to address my point?
1) As a historical matter, the afirmation was originally added to US civil procedure to accomodate Quakers, not Jews.
2) It is assur to lie about a court matter under any circumstances. The severity and consequences depend on whether it is a flat statement, a vow or an oath.
3) The civil courts do not care about anyone's religious conception of oaths. They are demanding testimony under the penalties of perjury for lying. That is what is being agreed to.
4) mayim rishonim are about Tumah and Taharah. Mayim acharonim are about cleanliness; general cleanliness according to Rashi, Dead Sea Salt according to Tosfot. You may use soap for those.
5) Affirmations are neither legal fictions nor symbolism. They are solemn promises to do what is said.
Mayim acharonim are about cleanliness; general cleanliness according to Rashi, Dead Sea Salt according to Tosfot. You may use soap for those.
Or just not do them, if you don't eat with your hands or don't use Dead Sea Salt 
. I was once at a meal in Israel where they passed around a chunk of Dead Sea rock salt so that people could do mayim ahharonim "for real". That stuff was surprisingly slimy and nasty — the ritualistic fingertip-pouring most people seem to do for mayim ahharonim would not help there at all. Soap and scrubbing would be much better.
While I agree that too often we go through the routine of doing Jewish things without it being a deep and meaningful experience, your examples don't work.
1) A shevua is a legal statement that changes a person's halachic reality. It's not just a fancy promise. We can promise in non-Jewish court to tell the truth but avoid the wording that might have more serious ramifications.
2) Hand washing has nothing to do with physically cleaning the hands. You cannot do netilas yadaim with dirty hands and the law clearly states you first have to clean up - presumably with soap and water - before you do it. So that doesn't work either.
The metaphysical reasons that seem to get so easily dismissed are just as important as the practical physical ones even if we can't see or feel their effects.
The systemic problem of Judaism today is not that it is TOO synbolic but PRECISELY because it has lost touch with unseen worlds, v'ahl kulam, lost touch , and a sense of reality and immediacy with an unseen G-d.
Said Rav Nakhman to the apikores when he had gotten him to move his hand directly over his eyes such that he could no longer "see" his hand:
"You think that you cannot see G-d because He is too far? No! You cannot see G-d because He is too close!"
Thos post is so havdala addeled. The author seeks a Judaism wherein everything "works" like hi-tech and local politics.
rejewvenator - Its value is purely symbolic
What's wrong with symbolic? There's plenty of value in symbolic things if they serve to turn everyday activities into holy activities!
Isn't almost all of religion symbolic anyway?
Mark:
I think what's bothering rejewvenator is that in his eyes Judaism has become more and more about symbolism and less about reality.
This is a valid criticism however I think his examples are off.
Religion in the Jewish sense is supposed to be about connecting with an eternal GD through practice of Torah and Mitzvos. That is not symbolic, it is real.
Then if you do something wrong, all you have to do is kill everyone the knows about it, and its as if it never happened.
What about the murder victims, dummy.
Think most of the examples in the post don't work, but I would like to focus on this:
values like democracy, equal rights, or environmentalism find no real home in our Jewish life, or at best, get strung onto a handful of pesukim, with no real halachic expression or force of mitzvah behind them, even thought they resonate strongly within us as true, and good, and important
I'm often bothered by this as well. The attitude seems to be that if it's not in a pasuk or in Jewish thinking from many hundreds of years ago, it has no value.
What's wrong with symbolic? There's plenty of value in symbolic things if they serve to turn everyday activities into holy activities!
2000 years ago they were symbols. 2000 years ago they were a recipe for better living. Today people live in the scummiest ways and tell themselves how super they are in the world nobody can see due to the symbolic things they do to make God smile.
2000 years ago they were NOT symbols
The author seeks a Judaism wherein everything "works" like hi-tech and local politics.
Correct. He seeks a Judaism that works in the way every known thing in the world works.
Correct. He seeks a Judaism that works in the way every known thing in the world works.
...and the way that Judaism ITSELF worked (or was imagined to work) when it came into being.
I tend to sympathise with the views in the post, but can't help but feel a tug back to the bubble in which we practice some of our Judaism.
I always understood that there was a "danger" in trying to search for a utiliatrian approach in halacha - then we'd all simply be reaching for the soap instead of performing the ritualistic netilat yadayim.
Isn't there a point at which we are just supposed to do things because we are told to; - just because we believe.
We've all pondered and discussed countless cases that "just don't make sense" in today's world (yom tov sheni, kitniyot, etc), but of course there comes a time in our "lo bashamayim hi" world where we must let halacha define us, and not us constantly seek to define halacha.
It's the symbolism that makes us Jews, not the fact that we have physically clean hands before eating (that only makes us human).
JS,
“values like democracy, equal rights, or environmentalism find no real home in our Jewish life, or at best, get strung onto a handful of pesukim, with no real halachic expression or force of mitzvah behind them, even thought they resonate strongly within us as true, and good, and important”
“I'm often bothered by this as well. The attitude seems to be that if it's not in a pasuk or in Jewish thinking from many hundreds of years ago, it has no value.”
A hear you loud and clear.
Some points:
Some of the issues like democracy and equal rights are understood by Judaism very differently then by western society.
Issues like environmentalism do find its way into halacha in many places (bal tashchis etc.)
JS,
One more important point,
Is really not about pesukim or halacha, its about focus.
A gossiper transgresses many biblical prohibitions, wearing a Yarmuka is a Minhag and in theory less severe. Yet every orthodox parent would rather their child gossip (“loshon Hara”) then walk around without a Yarmuka. It’s a matter of focus.
A gossiper transgresses many biblical prohibitions, wearing a Yarmuka is a Minhag and in theory less severe. Yet every orthodox parent would rather their child gossip (“loshon Hara”) then walk around without a Yarmuka. It’s a matter of focus.
And isn't this rediculous?
A gossiper transgresses many biblical prohibitions, wearing a Yarmuka is a Minhag and in theory less severe. Yet every orthodox parent would rather their child gossip (“loshon Hara”) then walk around without a Yarmuka. It’s a matter of focus.
So, Orthodox parents (and indeed all of us), need to get some glasses to get the focus adjusted to what's really important, then.
DB,
"And isn't this rediculous?"
At first glance it is, but its not so simple.
There seems to be emphasis on issues that make use different then our surroundings or on issues that counter popular culture or perceived threats.
Basically Judaism is in survival mode.
Think,
Yes, (Orthodox) Judaism has different views on democracy and equal rights, no question. But why should I need a pasuk to tell me not to leave my car idling or to recycle? Or when it comes to how to treat my wife or how to divide household chores, why should I look to a talmudic statement written nearly 2,000 years ago?
Why has Judaism stagnated in this respect? Why can we only enter modernity by looking back many hundreds of years?
Thanks to all who came in defense of Halacha. We need to work on becoming more attuned with the spiritual, not the physical. The essay rings true in some aspects, but only for American Jewry. The settlers in Chevron are living a very real Judaism as did those in the shtetl and the Talmidei Chachamim who are truly Torasam U'mnosom.
Many Americans need help, but we do not intend to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Perhaps one day the meaningless rituals will find meaning.
Azoi - 2000 years ago they were symbols. 2000 years ago they were a recipe for better living.
No. They are still symbols today, and most of them are still relevant today. For example, making a bracha when eating reminds us (symbolically?) that what we are about to eat is the bounty from the land that Hashem allows us to work, and who provides water for, etc. The same applies to just about every Jewish practice other than those things that are chukim (that don't always have apparent symbolism to us).
Today people live in the scummiest ways and tell themselves how super they are in the world nobody can see due to the symbolic things they do to make God smile.
I think this is more human nature rather than anything particularly Jewish. Humans have been making excuses for their bad behavior since the beginning.
And it's not all people, only some of them.
Think - A gossiper transgresses many biblical prohibitions, wearing a Yarmuka is a Minhag and in theory less severe. Yet every orthodox parent would rather their child gossip (“loshon Hara”) then walk around without a Yarmuka. It’s a matter of focus.
We do suffer from the malady of not seeing the forest for the trees. Somehow over the last few generations, we've become more concerned with the minutia of practice than with the reasons for practice or the joy of practice. This applies to MO as well as Charedim, though I would say that Charedim have already reached the "tipping point" and have tipped over it, while MO is still headed to that point (sort of like lemmings).
This isn't to say that the minutia of practice isn't important, it is, but just that it shouldn't overshadow the reason and joy of practice.
Personally, my wife and I spend a lot more time teaching our kids to be respectful and well spoken than the specifics of practice. We figure that whey will see the specifics in our home, in school, and in shul, but they need to learn the good middot at home. For example, we haven't been forcing our almost-4-year-old boys to wear kippah and tzizit, and instead focus on saying Shabbat Shalom and properly thanking people at shul when they are given candy, or just in general proper greeting of people they meet. They do, however, agree to wear their kippah in shul on shabbat morning, at least until I take them to the playground afterwards. We're still working on tzizit (I seem to recall that I was resistant as well as a young boy 
At first glance it is, but its not so simple.
There seems to be emphasis on issues that make use different then our surroundings or on issues that counter popular culture or perceived threats.
The Jewish laws of lashon hara do "make us different" from our surroundings. While gossipping is supposed to be a "no-no" in non-Jewish society we also have gossip rags, gossip columns, dishing the dirt, etc. which are all widely enjoyed passtimes in society.
The laws of lashon hara go above and beyond the Western taboos against gossip even when such taboos are (rarely) followed.
Being known as the people who don't gossip (and the other attendent practices banned by loshon hara) would be much more impressive and socially distinctive and, above all else, meaningful than wearing a kippah. (Not that one can't do both. But, lashon hara is a much greater separator and counter to popular culture.)
Plus - Would it be better to have a kid who didn't wear a kippah but avoided lashon hara - who would be known as "that good kid who never talks bad about anyone" then to have the kid wear a kippah and spread lashon hara - so that he'd be known to the non-Jews around him as "that gossiping, badmouthing Jew with the yarmulke"?
Mark,
I agree with you in a way...
I smile when i see someone so obsessed and concerned with the size of the matzh that he forgets to celebrate leaving Egypt. But! when push comes to shove doing the mitzvah correctly is more important then the thought that goes into it.
for the rest of us it is a halachic imperative to wash our hands EVEN IF WE DO NOT FEEL LIKE WASHING.
So, halacha is like having your mother around, forcing you to take care of yourselves and do what you should even when you don't want to?
But! when push comes to shove doing the mitzvah correctly is more important then the thought that goes into it.
So a monkey waving a lulav "correctly" is more valuable then knowing what a lulav is, why its waved, etc?
Are you sure?
I smile when i see someone so obsessed and concerned with the size of the matzh that he forgets to celebrate leaving Egypt
I grimace when I see someone so obsessed with putting on his hat after the musaf kedusha that he misses part of chazeres hashatz.
Its related to being in such a hurry to get the kiddush set up that musaf is turned into a bizayon.
Think - I smile when i see someone so obsessed and concerned with the size of the matzah that he forgets to celebrate leaving Egypt. But! when push comes to shove doing the mitzvah correctly is more important then the thought that goes into it.
Not in my family, and not for many generations of my family (frum, and frum at the same level, for many generations). But that might be because we are yekkes and we always know that we are doing it right
Even the boys that marry into our family tend to adopt our ways ... after a while
“So a monkey waving a lulav "correctly" is more valuable then knowing what a lulav is, why its waved, etc?
Are you sure?”
If a person waves a lulav and dose not know why, he has done a Mitzvah. However, if someone studies the laws of lulav and knows all the meaning and gematrias of the mitzvah but skips the little irrelevant shaking action, then he dose not fulfill his obligation. (same with %99 of mitzvos)
DB,
"Its related to being in such a hurry to get the kiddush set up that musaf is turned into a bizayon."
You must Daven in an old style shul where the kiddush starts after musaf
Yekkes are there own breed (I mean this in a good way). What works for them simply doesn’t work for others.
(1) Anybody who believes that hand washing was believed by the Amoraim to be exclusively or mainly for reasons of cleanliness has never learned, or just plain ignores, Gemoros which discuss chulin ate btaharos kodesh.
(2) There is only one extremely weak hint in shas that netilas yadaim has anything to do with germs, and since you are not aware of it, I will not tell you where it is. Where is your evidence (let alone proof) that netilas yadaim before eating bread has anything to do with cleanliness?
(3) By analogy, I suppose you reject a G-d who can not be seen, and thereby reject all of Judaism.
(4) If you come from a frum family, not wearing a yarmulka most likely means that you are rejecting being observant as a value or plan to engage in activities that are inconsistent with Jewish law. Therefore, a Jewish frum parent should be upset.
(5) Speaking lashon hara means you are not a tzadik gamor. The Gemora says that some of Clall Yisroel transgress the laws of forbidden relations, most transgress the laws against stealing, and all transgress the laws against the dust of (avak) lashon hara. Transgressing does not constitute a rebellion and in that sense is less of a cause of concern.
Clue,
4 and 5,
What if he isn't rebelling?
You haven't addressed my point, all you did was bush back the question. Can you explained to me why a yarmulka became a sign of rebellion as apposed to other issues?
Can you explain why non-glat meat is considered traif? the very same people that eat pas ackum / bishul acukm and chalov akum would not even consider eating non-glat. dose it make sense?
Can you explain why people accepted R Moshe's (Feinstein) psak to drink chalav stam, but not R' Moshe's(Isserlis - the Rama's) p'sak regarding non glat meat?
The examples in the OP may not be the perfect ones, but the general disengagement from the real world is that he is concerned about is all around us, at least in the US Charedi communities.
One example of the many that immerse our lives occurred in my community recently when a child in the community was diagnosed with cancer. The local rabbinate felt a communal response was desirable and so decreed that everyone make sure to stand up during aliyos...nice idea, but ...huh?
How about donating time and money to cancer research or bikur cholim? Or even plain-old tehilim gatherings on behalf of the afflicted...either of these choices would actually respond in some fashion to the real-world issue (a person we care about having cancer).
How much importance is given to Tashlich, Kaporos and Karpas verses Shnaim Mikra?
Another Orth-O-Prax
You just made my day....
See plain-old tehilim gatherings is given more importance then standing up during aliyos.
Standing up during aliyos is a halachic issue as some poskim require it, but tehilim is a minhag...
If a person waves a lulav and dose not know why, he has done a Mitzvah. However, if someone studies the laws of lulav and knows all the meaning and gematrias of the mitzvah but skips the little irrelevant shaking action, then he dose not fulfill his obligation. (same with %99 of mitzvos)
Gematriahs of a mitzvah????
Wow, that's funny. Shows me stuff about you I didn't want to see...
Think...how about reading my post before issuing your standard knee-jerk reaction?
I did not mnake a value judgement about standing during aliyos vs. tehilim (or supporting cancer research).
I simply pointed out that standing during aliyos bears NO RELATIONSHIP to the real-world issue at hand - a local kid having cancer.
1) Anybody who believes that hand washing was believed by the Amoraim to be exclusively or mainly for reasons of cleanliness has never learned, or just plain ignores, Gemoros which discuss chulin ate btaharos kodesh.
Right, it had everything to do with cleanliness as the term was understood in antiquity, when people worried about invisible forces like "Tumah" and not about pathogens, like bacteria.
Any ancient person living in the ANE did something like "netilas yadayim" and for the same mistaken reasons. It wasn't a Jewish thing in those days.
AOOP - The examples in the OP may not be the perfect ones, but the general disengagement from the real world is that he is concerned about is all around us, at least in the US Charedi communities.
In my opinion, not only are Charedi communities disengaging from the real world, but they are in some ways disengaging from "true" Judaism. Perhaps it is similar to what the Zedukim did the the religion all those years ago (I am not anywhere near an expert, maybe someone else can comment about this).
One example of the many that immerse our lives occurred in my community recently when a child in the community was diagnosed with cancer. The local rabbinate felt a communal response was desirable and so decreed that everyone make sure to stand up during aliyos...nice idea, but ...huh?
How about donating time and money to cancer research or bikur cholim? Or even plain-old tehilim gatherings on behalf of the afflicted...either of these choices would actually respond in some fashion to the real-world issue (a person we care about having cancer).
It's obvious that this Rabbi has "a thing" about standing up for aliyot and is simply using the cancer victim as an excuse to further his desire of such. To me, that is a nasty and disgusting use of a hugely unfortunate event in a families life.
Tzip:
Exactly, halacha is a practical way of maintaining a Torah lifestyle.
anon
"Gematriahs of a mitzvah????"
It was said Tongue-in-cheek
DB:
Yes I am sure.
AND it is abhorrent that most "frum" Jews waste their opportunity to connect to Hashem by not tapping into the spiritual parts of the mitzva.
Here is the order:
-perform mitvza
-then appreciate mitzva
If we waited to do every mitzva until we appreciated it we would never get around to doing mitzvos.
It's a good system. Not perfect but good.
In my opinion, not only are Charedi communities disengaging from the real world,
In 2009, the rituals have no connection to the real world; in 200 BCE they did. In 200 BCE the sages tried to keep up with the science of the gentiles and shaped rulings accordingly. In 200 BCE it was ok to shape rituals that took into account the realities of 200 BCE. In 2009 none of that is allowed anymore.
AND it is abhorrent that most "frum" Jews waste their opportunity to connect to Hashem by not tapping into the spiritual parts of the mitzva.
"connect with Hashem" is euphamistic mumbo jumbo. Please say what you mean.
Aside from being disjointed, and way off mark, the post does point to one very real flaw in today's orthodox society. Orthodoxy is too concerned with doing what looks good, at the expense of actually being good.
My local chareidi, bearded, bekeche wearing rabbi made note during the yom kippur kattan shmooze this sunday, that, he finds it interesting that our community has been hit with a sickness which shares it's name with the "davar acher". We have become a community which is inflicted with the symbolism of the pig, who sticks out its feet showing the world how "kosher" he is, while totally disregarding the interior requirements.
Fyi-an affirmation carries weight irregardless of legal "shvua" status. Eliezer made a shvua, as did esav, as did avimelech, way before matan torah. See tshuvos avnei nezer, who uses this concept quite frequently. David hamelech said nishbati va'akayeima mishpitei zidkecha, despite the fact that the shvua was not binding as a shvuah (ein shvuah chal al shvua, mushba v'omed meihar sinai, lesa b'lav v'hein), for it still has the power to bind one to keep his word (shari lzruzei nafshei-see nedarim 8a?)
Another Orth-O-Prax,
I wasn’t criticizing you or your comment, I was using your comment to make a point (the same point I made in the previous comments)
My point was that our religious focus dose not necessarily correlate with Halacha. There are many customs that are given more importance then law. Tehilim is one such area.
"connect with Hashem"= appreciating the priveledge of being able to express your love for hashem through preforming his will.
To Think: I deliberately said "most likely." A yarmulka is a means of identification, just as chasidic garb is a means of identification. If you change the garb most likely it is because you do not wish to identify; although it conceivably be for other reasons.
My uderstanding is that all meat in America is "glatt" because it is uneconomical to check non-glatt meat.
Glatt in America has more to do with the strictness and reliability of the supervision than the technical definition. Unfortunately, the regular kosher meat was frequently not that. Therefore, the community self-imposed stricter standards (yes; I know about the exception in upstate New York). There were also important questions about sabbath observance and
washing and salting of the meat that needed stricter attention.
If my understanding is incorrect, which it may be, then I expect that somebody will correct me.
Mark said:
"It's obvious that this Rabbi has "a thing" about standing up for aliyot and is simply using the cancer victim as an excuse to further his desire of such. To me, that is a nasty and disgusting use of a hugely unfortunate event in a families life."
About the rabbi - yes indeed. About the family, though, they're not the questioning type and so may not see it from the same point of view as you and I.
Think -
"My point was that our religious focus dose not necessarily correlate with Halacha. There are many customs that are given more importance then law. Tehilim is one such area."
No contest.
Clue,
There is a vast amount of non-glat meat produced by the same companies that produce glat
Illustration of my point:
How many hatzoloh members, who'd get out of bed in middle of the night, and drive miles to do a chesed, will speed-up/honk/getsture-wildly, if they feel they have the right of way, instead of extending common courtesy, and letting the poor lady pull-into-traffic/parallel-park/make-the-turn?
They're interested in what looks good, not in being good
DB (and anyone else):
Connect to Hashem is not euphemistic. But I will explain my full thought here-
Not to get too far afoot, our Neshama was separated from its original home that is close to Hashem.
Our job throughout our lives is to reconnect. GD gave us a tool kit to connect to Him. The tools are the Torah and Mitzvos. They are GDly acts for a physical world. But this is limited to HUMAN acts. Acts that are "chosen".
So connect to Hashem = perform His instructions for doing so.
HOWEVER, one can perform those Mitzvos without understanding and meaning. Doing so limits the amount of "glue" created by performing said Mitzvah.
"Monkey acts" are lambasted by Chzl for this very reason. We lose the chance to "connect" when we fail to act like HUMANS "choosing" to act and we merely act by compulsion we are just a gazelle in the herd. And we fail to connect.
So, our monkey acting lulav waving friend "loses his opportunity to connect" when he fails to make the mitzva spiritual and it remains an animal act with no consciousness.
E. Fink,
Bray can probably provide the source, I believe it was a chassidic rav, who said:
The taryag mizvos are actually taryag 'itin', clues, to achieve "uvo sidbak"
E. Fink,
I can tell you are new to the zoo.
Allow me the chutzpah to answer on behalf of DB. I’ll begin with your first sentence and I will continue if needed.
Not too far afoot = Time is irrelevant
our Neshama = more euphamistic mumbo jumbo
was separated = Nothing is part of him or separates from him
from its original home = home? What dose a home have to do with something non physical.
that is close to Hashem = nothing is close to Hashem.
Your explaining euphamistic mumbo jumbo with more euphamistic mumbo jumbo
introspective chareidi,
The word mitzvah is related to the word "Tzavsa" (Vchibor) - to connect
was separated = Nothing is part of him or separates from him
Vayipach b'apav nishmas chayim: man d'nafach m'dilei ka'nafach
God is everywhere. How do I get closer to something that is everywhere.
Speak clearly. Don't hide behind euphamism or poorly thought out metaphors. Say what you mean or admit you don't know.
E. Fink,
I understand it differently…
The way I understand it is, even “monkey acts” completely connects you to Hashem, the difference is, that the connection is obscured. Its like a palace that’s dark, even if complete and beautiful, is not very functional.
Therefore,
1. Its more important to build a palace (do a mitzvah) then have light (kavanah) with no palace.
2. If you don’t have kavana when you do a mitzvah, you can always go back and have kavana later adding light to the already built palace. If however you had kavana but did not do the physical mitzvah, the opportunity to do the physical mitzvah already passed so nothing can be done.
DovBear,
Did you see what i wrote (on your behalf)?
Think:
You are a great nitpicker. Not kidding.
Some of your points are worth addressing, but you can see from IC's comment that much of what I left out explicitly I assumed would be "understood".
That is the problem with Hashkafa on a blog, you can say - "what does that mean?" to just about anything.
I am avoiding the questions but I think that what I said was reasonable and helpful to the discussion.
Think:
We can all see it however we want. We all agree that acting like an animal and not being conscious of our actions is not a very effective way of observing Torah and Mitzvos.
I was merely responding to DB's "Are you sure" comment earlier when I said practice > intent.
In fact it is a B'feirush gemara. Mitzvos Ein Tzrichos Kavana.
However, it is infinitely more effective to have kavana.
Think please stop hiding behind analogies. If the point is the waving of the lulav a monkey gets schar. If the point is becoming cognizent of what the waving represents I can familiarize myself with these ideas and skip the rite.
Correct? If not why? (and be precise. No more evasive analogies pls)
I have something to add to the post. Two thousnad plus years ago every ANE culture offered sacrifices to a diety in a long room triparte temple. Look it up. There was nothing unique about our system of korbonot It was just the universally accepted technology for serving or pleasing a diety. Everyone more or less did it the same way. Same deal with hand washing. What we did wasn't unique. It was just the universally accepted technology for ridding yourself of tumah. The whole ane did something similar. Waving a lulav was a way to act happy and to celebrate in the way the masquerading later achieved a similar function in catholic italy. Binding your arms with amulets was an accepted technology used by many ane cultures for driving off demons. And so on.
Nowadays universally accepted technologies like soap for germ removal may be accepted by Jews too but they aren't recognized in any official way by the religion. Instead we still do things the old ane way and claim its useful because of the invisible and impossible to see or prove metaphysical significance or because of how it magically and imperceptbly connects us to god. I think the post is urging us to concern ourselves less with what we can't see and to instead focus on real world measurable causes and effects. I agree with that and ironically so do you... in every single realm but religion.
Isn't almost all of religion symbolic anyway?
No. As below, so above.
DB:
Is there a source that you can point me towards with respect to the ANE cultures?
I am VERY interested to learn more. Ever since I read Paul Johnson's History of the Jews I have been looking for more...
The "Party Line" answer to all of this is that - "They borrowed from us" and "our practices are replete with meaning while they are cloning our religion without the soul".
Being a "noob" I am sure you have had this argument come your way, I just missed it. What are your responses?
If you want to go "off-blog", email me.
Thanks
While there may indeed be some points to quibble about, I think that the post itself hits the mark. There is a difference between a living faith and a nostalgic museum piece. In the former, individuals must take responsibility and choose. In the latter, one is only responsible for coloring within the lines. To the extent that Judaism only becomes about that, it loses its reason for being.
E. Fink,
Careful with the ANE info. May lead to kefira.
>Traditionally Jews would never make a “Shevuah” in a Jewish court even if it meant losing the case.
What nonsense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Oat...th_More_Judaico
First, I want to say thanks to everyone who commented on my post. This was my first time at DovBear, so thanks for the warm welcome. Thanks also to DovBear for letting me post, and to TikunOlam for encouraging me. I only wish I wasn't at jury duty all day, away from a computer and away from the conversation.
I want to address some of the responses.
First, for those who pointed out that netilat yadayim is about tumah and tahara, not about cleanliness. I actually think it's the perfect example. We know that you aren't supposed to do netila if your hands aren't clean. That's the halacha. And yet, if you stand by the sink at any shul or wedding, not a single person washes their hands with soap prior to netila. Everyone can smugly announce that l'halacha of course your hands are supposed to be clean, while ignoring the metzius that people are not nearly as makpid on the practical halacha of having clean hands prior to washing as they are on the ritual halacha of doing netilat yadayim.
My personal practice is to wash with soap and water, and rinse with netilat yadiyim, and be mechaven in my bracha for both parts. What's really interesting is how many restaurants I've been to that have a washing cup, but no soap and water at the wash basin. Nobody seems to miss it, despite the halachic requirement that your hands be clean before netilat yadayim. Very telling.
As to the issue of shevuah, it's a similar point. If you wanted to avoid giving a shevuah in a Jewish court, you had to face the consequences of your act, which usually meant a monetary loss. Judaism did not invent some affirmation ritual to circumvent this problem int he Jewish court. Either you swore, or you took your lumps. Not swearing actually meant something, you ahd to sacrifice to not swear. The affirmation innovation simply empties the whole notion of oath-reluctance of any meaning. You can merrily "swear" without halachically swearing, and you don't ahve to pay the price of avoiding an oath. Once again, ritual trumps practical - instead of creating a culture where people prefer to pay a price than risk swearing by God, you ahve a culture where oath-taking is considered not such a big deal, since it's not a "real" oath anyway!
There is a place for symbolism, but our religion is not primarily symbolic. Once upon a time, our rabbis could say that tefillah now replaces korbanot, and you fulfill your obligation to bring korbanot through tefillah. We could take a practice and raise it a level of religious meaning and authority. Today, we can't or don't, and our religion becomes mostly symbolism.
rejewvenator,
Well done. Look forward to the next one!
"To the extent that Judaism only becomes about that, it loses its reason for being."
Only if its reason for being is to serve the ever changing needs and desires of mortals. If, however, its reason for being is to serve the unyeilding, unchanging, tzur haolamim, then reinvention is further removing it from the source.
"My personal practice is to wash with soap and water, and rinse with netilat yadiyim, and be mechaven in my bracha for both parts."
If there's still soap on your hands when you do the netilah you very well may be making a bracha l'vatallah. Clean hands has everything to do with tumah/tahara, and nothing to do with sanitary conditions. Chatzizah's the reason for clean hands. And I've almost never seen people washing in shul without removing thier rings.
Only if its reason for being is to serve the ever changing needs and desires of mortals. If, however, its reason for being is to serve the unyeilding, unchanging, tzur haolamim, then reinvention is further removing it from the source.
Come now, the average OJ does tons of stuff, obstensebly for official Torah True reasons, even though it has no basis in anything really old (eg upshurin), and lots/some of the really old stuff has been dropped. (eg BHaB) All those modifications and updates are in the service of... who exactly?
Clean hands has everything to do with tumah/tahara, and nothing to do with sanitary conditions.
Well, that's not exactly true. Before people knew about soap and bacteria, they "cleaned" their hands with a magical ritual of some kind, and not from dirt or germs, but from invisible cootie like forces. So in the ANE something like netilat tadayim very definately was done for what amounted to sanitary purposes. Sure, that's not why we do it now, but isn't that the post's point?
"but isn't that the post's point?"
no, that's your point. You are of the mind that Mitzvos, for whatever reason grew from society at large's customs at the time. I disagree with that premise (you may have sources such as the Ramba"m regarding korbanos to back you up somewhat, but I have a different take on it). I am of the opinion that any smilarity between Mitzvos and ANE custom is because the world was created with the intent of meshing perfectly with torah. As humanity evolves away from it, certain ingrained behaviors fade away. Some which are more necessary for kiyum haolam, were more deeply ingrained, and thier impression lasts longer. Ritual washing was customary in ANE (in my opinion)because the impression of tumah/tahara from the time of creation still manifested itself on humanity, same goes for sacrifices. Much of that has faded. Certain universally accepted rules such as murder, infidelity, robbery, last longer. I believe they remain logical, because they were ingrained in creation, not that they are still existant because they are logical.
When the final Tikun comes, you believe that Torah will be perfected to conform with humanity's perception of utopia; while I believe that humanity's perception of utopia will be corrected/perfected, to conform to Torah.
I guess the difference is from what perspective you view the world. I try to view it, from the perspective that Torah is perfection, and the jump off point for creation (my own version of 'histakel b'oraysa, ubarah alma'). Things that meshed were not the source, but the affected. You are looking at the world from the perspective of Humanity.
(1) There is little reason to believe that ancient cultures intuited germ theory. It took years to convince American doctors delivering babies that they should wash their hands.
(2) Tumah and Tahara had nothing to do with the darkside of the force or cooties or whatever. If, it did then the technical laws would make no sense (such as fruits needing a hechshar to be susceptible to tumah).
(3) I am not sure what is defined as glatt or not. I suspect that non-glatt allows certain koolas that glatt does not, which may have nothing to do with the definition of glatt.
You are of the mind that Mitzvos, for whatever reason grew from society at large's customs at the time. I disagree with that premise (you may have sources such as the Ramba"m regarding korbanos to back you up somewhat, but I have a different take on it).
That's not my position. You've mischarecterized it. And along with the rambam, you might have mentioned the whole of archeology, lingusitics and compartivie relgions.
am of the opinion that any smilarity between Mitzvos and ANE custom is because the world was created with the intent of meshing perfectly with torah.
So why do we disallow that meshing now? For example, the seder is based on a Greek Symposium (the four cups, the dipping, and more) because when important people got together to discuss idea that's how they did it. So why can't we do that kind of borrowing today?
I guess the difference is from what perspective you view the world. I try to view it, from the perspective that Torah is perfection, and the jump off point for creation
Sure but PEOPLE aren't perfect, and the Torah has been in the hands of PEOPLE for thousdands of years already.
"Come now, the average OJ does tons of stuff, obstensebly for official Torah True reasons, even though it has no basis in anything really old (eg upshurin), and lots/some of the really old stuff has been dropped. (eg BHaB) All those modifications and updates are in the service of... who exactly?"
I'm not saying that we are perfect. That we don't deviate from the correct purpose of our religion. Would anyone say that the dropping of B'hab was a good thing? I personally don't do upsherin. Don't even know the source. The deviations are our flaws. Why should we attempt to increase them.
TO:
I am a big boy. I can learn and decide on my own or with the help of my teachers.
thanks for the concern
(1) There is little reason to believe that ancient cultures intuited germ theory. It took years to convince American doctors delivering babies that they should wash their hands.
Ancient cultures knew nothing about germs. They washed their hands because they were afraid of invisible forces, ie Tumah. Point is they all did it. IC has a silly reason to explain it which falls apart when you realize that only ANE cultures were similar to Judaism; elsewhere other cultures were very different.
(2) Tumah and Tahara had nothing to do with the darkside of the force or cooties or whatever. If, it did then the technical laws would make no sense (such as fruits needing a hechshar to be susceptible to tumah).
A lot of those laws and explanations came later.
DB:
Please respond to my earlier query, I am really interested in how you approach that line of thinking.
(ie that the world patterned ITSELF after Torah - not IC's take)
I personally don't do upsherin. Don't even know the source
The source is that Muslims did it, and Jews copied it. This is well documented. Later, after it caught on, explanatory reasons were invented. This is also documented.
E_Fink I don't understand your question.
"For example, the seder is based on a Greek Symposium (the four cups, the dipping, and more)"
Or, alternatively, the Greek symposium grew out of The almighty's vision of what a perfect Seder would be, and planted that seed in creation. For the side of kedusha, it grew into the seder, and for the other side it manifested itself into the symposium.
The fact that only ANE cultures did it does not refute my belief, on the contrary, If matan Torah was the purpose of creation it was only the cultures which surrounded the Jewish nation which were necessary to have customs which would, to an extent, reflect Torah's perfect world. It was necessary for Klal Yisroel to be able to accept Torah. If all the nations surrounding Klal yisroel believed as society does today that homosexual acts was perfectly ok, or that slavery was an abomination, how would Klal Yisroel have been able to accept what would be perceived as a ridiculous set of Laws? (as it is we have the tradition of kafa aleihem har k'gigus). It was part of the blue print to culminate in Matan Torah, and further part of the blueprint to culminate in the Tikun.
DB:
I think IC has now (somewhat) asked the question.
Is it not possible (or likely) that the ANE copied their ideas from Torah?
thats all
If you believe that those laws and explanations came later, you do not believe in the traditional sense of Torah Shel Al Peh.
That is your right, I guess, but makes any dialogue virtually pointless. We operate from a fundamentally different set of assumptions.
"The source is that Muslims did it, and Jews copied it. This is well documented. Later, after it caught on, explanatory reasons were invented. This is also documented.
DovBear | 06.22.09 - 10:57 pm | # "
I'm sure those that truly believe in it (that investigated it thoroughly, and truly still believe in it) are of the opinion that this was part of the almighty's plan, and that the non-jewish constituency just got there first.
Your legitimate question is what's to stop us from adopting any custom, and stating that it's part of the almighty's plan, and society just got there first. The way I see it, is that we need to rely on the Einei Haeidah to guide us as to what is acceptable to adapt, and what is not. In addition, if it is in conflict with Torah, it's a non-starter (lo yachlifenah v'lo yamir osah). In addition, if it's in conflict with a previous generations established halacha, it can't be implemented, unless the current beis din is greater b'chachmah, ub'minyan.
E Fink,
I would not go so far. I'm sure historical and archeological evidence will show that many customs predated Matan Torah.
FLASH: This in from Jpost web site. State Department Spokesman states that US demands Israel stop building in any area across Green Line, including Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem.
Puts lie to contention that Obama is just insisting that Israel live up to its agreements.
Funny, I did not hear Hillary or Obama express this during campaign. How pathetic.
IC:
Jewish law also predated Matan Torah.
See Rashi in Yoma (I forgot cite) that Avos, dating 1000 years prior to Matan Torah kept Mitzvos.
"FLASH: This in from Jpost web site. State Department Spokesman states that US demands Israel stop building in any area across Green Line, including Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem."
Hell of a way for Obama to deflect focus from his lack of reaction to Iran. Once again Israel's the sacrificial lamb.
IC - Or, alternatively, the Greek symposium grew out of The almighty's vision of what a perfect Seder would be, and planted that seed in creation. For the side of kedusha, it grew into the seder, and for the other side it manifested itself into the symposium.
To me, this argument strikes me as extremely dangerous. If anything other cultures did (or do) can be termed "[something that] grew out of Hashems vision ...", and to conclude from that reasoning that the action is Judaically correct, then using this line of argument anything could be Judaically correct!
I therefore conclude that the line of argument is not valid.
Why is it such a terrible thing to believe that Judaism borrowed from the surrounding culture? Why is upsherin, the seder, and tons of other rituals any different than chassidim dressing like Polish noblemen?
Did the Polish noblemen just "get their first"? That this style of dress was part of Torah, part of creation, and part of the divine plan just the Polish noblemen "uncovered" it first, and now we do it because a spark of creation has been revealed?
Mark,
"Your legitimate question is what's to stop us from adopting any custom, and stating that it's part of the almighty's plan, and society just got there first. The way I see it, is that we need to rely on the Einei Haeidah to guide us as to what is acceptable to adapt, and what is not. In addition, if it is in conflict with Torah, it's a non-starter (lo yachlifenah v'lo yamir osah). In addition, if it's in conflict with a previous generations established halacha, it can't be implemented, unless the current beis din is greater b'chachmah, ub'minyan.
introspective chareidi | 06.22.09 - 11:19 pm | # "
"Why is it such a terrible thing to believe that Judaism borrowed from the surrounding culture"
I refuse to believe that a mitzvah that I make a bracha on (arbah kosos), has no divinely inspired source. The upsherin, and the shtreimel, are different, as they were never universally accepted, so thier divine inspiration is up for dbate. Although since many very great people, who are of the caliber of 'einei haeidah' did embrace it, they are not to be mocked.
The theory works in the reverse as well. Those that mock Western Europe's implementation of Choirs etc. by davening, are violating the same principal. The einei haeida in Germany supported it, who are the eastern European's to mock it.
The divine plan argument is a beautiful idea, but aside from the questions already leveled against it, you have to ask, if the perfect form for the Seder was the symposium form, why didn't Hashem command that we do the seder that way? This notion of ongoing revelation is actually quite progressive, and Tamar Ross would be thrilled to see a Chareidi embrace it!
Hey Rejewvenator,
I like you blog!
nice.
"why didn't Hashem command that we do the seder that way?"
Come now, there are thousands of d'rabanan's of which we can ask the same question. The short and easy answer is that the cheit of the eitz hadaas caused a blending of tov v'rah, which left it incumbent upon klal yisroel to correct, and to cull the tov from the rah, and to thus bring about the ultimate tikun. Chassidus would define it as raising the nitzozos, but that is more esoteric than I would feel comfortable confining myself to (must leave room for introspection )
In addition, there has to be a point when contemplating G-d's plan where we become stumped, or there would be no room for b'chirah.
I'll give you this IC, those certainly are easy answers...
EFink, thanks for the love! I don't post that often, but I try to make 'em good!
One last thing- when I started this line of commenting I began with "alternatively". I'm not saying my way of interpreting is the one true way. It's what I tell myself in order to sleep at night. It is the culmination of my personal exposure to various mamarei chaza"l/sifrei mussar/hashkafah/rabbeim, and life experience. if someone has alternative beliefs, as long as they don't conflict with Torah, and universally established mesorah, I'll still drink lchaim with them (although I may not let them share the top-shelf stuff )
Someone can believe that the shtreimel is stuff and nonsense, even that the seder is based on the symposium, and still be an authentic maiman.
PPS.
Contrary to Ms. Ross, I fully support the concept of Yiridas hadoros. I believe that the further we get from the revelation, the more blurred the line between divine and non-divine gets. Compounding it, is the directly proportionate yiradas haeinei haeida. Thier eyesight gets weaker with the generations, thus lending to greater mistakes in culling the tov from the rah.
Rejew,
Ya, we disagree here, but I just visited your blog, and I have to admit you have GREAT stuff. The land/people/g-d pc. Is a work of art.
See Rashi in Yoma (I forgot cite) that Avos, dating 1000 years prior to Matan Torah kept Mitzvos.
Why cite Rashi in favor of this point when you could have used a gemerah?
Anyway this is a big machlokes rishonim. Rashi is way in the minority with all the big names taking different views. As I've discussed elswhere saying the avot kept all mitzvot is VERY hard which prob is why Rashi is the only rishon who says it. (rashbam ramban ibn ezra chizkuni etc all disagree)
IC you aren't making a brocho on arba kosot. You're making it on wine.
And what do you do with the fact that the seder developed at the same time and place as the symposium? Even the word afikomin is greek and refers to something symposium related (see my post on this) Nowadays afikomen is a word for desert. To the greeks it meant something else and argueably the Mishna is using it in the greek sense when it teaches ain maftirin achar hapesach afikomin.
If Jews today looked at the Oscars and said hey. When non Jews want to celebrate they put on tuxedos and give each other statues. Lets do something similar there would be an outroar yet all the evidence suggests the seder developed along similar lines.
Hell of a way for Obama to deflect focus from his lack of reaction to Iran. Once again Israel's the sacrificial lamb.
Please. what's he supposed to do? invade? Had he reacted you and the other nitpickers would complain he was meddling.
NoClue
I don't know how you can learn gemarah and say all the laws are from sinai. On the pages of the Talmud you can at times actually see the Sages make deductions and work out the law. Its perfectly clear to anyone who has studied seriously that at least some of the tumah and tahara laws were created well after sinai. Many are explicitly gezarahs.
Obviously, there are laws of taharot which were instituted by the Rabbis. I never said or even hinted otherwise. You somehow inferred what I never implied.
The need for fruit to have a hechshar before it becomes susceptible to tuma, however, is not one of them. That is the only law I mentioned. And yes, I believe that law was from Sinai.
In general, I believe that a good deal of Gemora attempts to find scriptual support for laws which were given at Sinai and were generally accepted by everyone.
An example is the proposition that an "eye for an aye" means payment. The Gemora in Hachovel contains a dispute about the source, although the Halacha itself is not disputed by anyone.
Commenting by HaloScan
