Could not agree more with everything you wrote here, Dawg.
Dawg, has the AFN made any comment on this horrible situation? If so can you please link to it.
Mordechai,
The AFN isn't keen on Annett, and doesn't want any mavericks upsetting its soon-to-be-launched Truth and Reconciliation Commission. If Holly Stick is listening in, she might have more to say on that.
I just don't get what the problem here is:
1) The claim is true, and we get to the bottom of it and mete out something like justice and everyone gets to bathe in the light of being right and smart etc
2) It's not true, and the right gets to beat up on someone for lying for a bit (which is, after all, what they love)
That's the point many of us are making.
Investigate.
I am not sure if it's a money question for them, they are worried that they may have to pay out more?
Or if it is only to salvage some part of the Church's reputation?
For whatever reason, this debate will continue to grow, until it is answered once and for all.
The Facebook group now has over 2500 members, and more every day.
And that means more people who know that this is still unresolved.
The know-nothings keep squealing, "Investigation? We don't need no steenkin' investigation."
And they're the ones who accuse us of magic thinking. Good grief.
i was just wondering about your sense of humour; i've been searching for it, but have not yet been able to locate it; would you be so kind as to direct me towards a sample? thanks,
rzr:
Here you go. The present thread is the wrong place to look for humour, though.
I was just wondering about your sense of humour; i've been searching for it, but have not yet been able to locate it; would you be so kind as to direct me towards a sample? thanks,
Ah, wingnut response no. 4887. That never gets old. Never gets clever or funny either, which is like...ironic...or something.
I'd go whole hog on 9/11 Trutherism just to hock the harridans off, but unlike their fans, Kate and Kathy are well aware of what they're doing and would spot that ruse in a second.
Why would one go looking for a sense of humor in a post about unmarked graves?
100% in agreement. An investigation is obviously in order. And this coming from an "evil right wing fiscal conservative" ... 
Charles, in clarification 'fiscal' conservatives are not inherently 'evil'. That would be the right-wing 'social' conservatives.
I think your and Annett's causes would be more compelling if you both took greater care not to bandy around terms like bigotry and genocide before the inquiry is even underway. In fact, your linking this to the tale of the Duplessis orphans makes one wonder whether you actually are making it yourself or if it is only your adversaries that make it. If I thought the factual basis pointing to this was there, I would support it in a minute, but no one should be dismissed as racist or with any other epithet simply because they are wary of a solitary controversial activist trying to grab hold of a dramatic political cause. The AFN is not known for sweeping historical atrocities against native peoples under the rug because they don't like mavericks upsetting their five-year policy plans.
I don't think they're being dismissed as racist because they are wary of a particular activist. It's the content of their collected works that provides the real evidence.
What you say about not letting this be based on Annett's credibility is right, Dr. D. Holly expressed her concern on one of my posts, and she's right in many of the points she made, although I find some of the claims made against Annett (by others) unsuported.
But that,s not the point, here. There are so many other independent sources of information, so many witnesses that this demands an investigation.
As for KKKate and hers, they are a bunch of racist pricks, generally, and shouldn't be responded to directly, but any "evidence" they come up with should be examined and refuted, as warranted. But on our forums. Theirs are a waste of time.
Good post, by the way!
Peter:
Did I use the word "genocide?"
In fact, your linking this to the tale of the Duplessis orphans makes one wonder whether you actually are making it yourself or if it is only your adversaries that make it.
I'm afraid I don't understand.
Heh ... thanks Frank ... I was afraid for my soul for a second there! But seriously. Although I am often wary of activists and their intentions (and honesty), I think if mass graves were found (regardless of who is in the graves), an investigation is warranted. Let us be careful, however, with throwing theories out there before we have any conclusive evidence ... too much of that has been going around lately.
Dawg, Peter just got his "Left Wing Decoder Ring V2.0™ - Now with extra made up stuff to tarnish the left with™"
Funny eh? My outrage over this was that it was being ignored by the media, and I said on more than one occasion that, given the already proven allegations of abuse at Residential Schools, these allegations should at least warrant investigation and attention. They aren't that crazy, when compared some of the other, well documented horrors of those institutions.
I would be happy if these things were proven wrong.
But apparently, in the strange black and white world inhabited by LaShaidle and KKKate, to merely want some allegations investigated is to suddenly accept them completely as fact.
I don't accept them as fact, but I think they are compelling enough to warrant an investigation.
And having read Glavin's piece, I'd be curious about the details of those supposed RCMP investigations that turned up nothing he references when slamming Annett. So, lets get the details of those investigations public.
I want information, either way, to either prove or disprove these allegations. Stonewalling and pretending they aren't real doesn't cut it.
Dawg wrote:
"None of this, of course, means that one should simply assume the truth of Annett's claims. But he's not alone in making them, first of all, and secondly he has pinpointed the alleged locations of the mass burial sites."
I've had some problems with Annett's claims. One is, did HE pinpoint the location of the sites, across several provinces? And all at once in one big release to the media? I wonder how many of these were not more or less already known.
There is also the use of the word "genocide" in this context, which I think is probably over the top.
So what exactly differentiates this story from any other conspiracy theory? Your argument for this can be applied for pretty much anything.
"Hes's not alone in making them"(the accusations)
There is a guy named Fred Phelps in the US. He says things and he is not alone either. Check him out and tell me if that makes his message any more palatable.
The fact that you couldn't come up with anyone credible within the last 100 years to echo or support the accusations speaks volumes. It is time to stop digging, Dr Dawg.
He has failed to produce a shred of evidence.
-Terry Glavin
I can certainly see why Leftist establishment-haters who lap up every goofy conspiracy theory, as long as it rips Western culture, want to pretend that Kevin Annett is not the issue.
Hey, I don't have any evidence, but I'm pretty sure I just saw Bigfoot. Where's my Nobel Prize?
No doubt Annett will assert that the "evidence" lies just below some magnificent church, and that if we would only tear down the church, we could see for ourselves, because it came to him in a dream after dropping some Lucy in the Sky With Diamond.
Perhaps instead of "Eagle Strong Voice" Annett should be named "Chicken Who Clucks With Forked Tongue".
E-V (and BCL):
Annett is not a one-man show. There are Native people around him, and he is speaking for them as well (if no one else). My point is that the very notion of investigating has certain elements on the Right already mocking and ridiculing. And I wonder how much of that reflexive denial went on a few years back when other allegations surfaced about missing Native people.
FF:
If you're simply here to troll, go away. If you want to do your homework (the background document), then read it. You will note that not all of the alleged gravesites lie below any buildings at all. And you will also note that Annett is not the only person involved.
Whether this pans out or not will be determined by an investigation, not by the stupid personal attacks. I have already suggested how this might be done.
I agree with you Dawg that it should be investigated. At the same time though Im left a little concerned that no legitimate First Nations group seems intent on following this through. Mordechai's earlier question did get me thinking. I understand politics in FN's communities but surely if these allegations are true it has to transcend politics. Something doesn't seem right here I just cannot put my finger on it.
I still don't get it, why not investigate the allegations? What's the downside?
JC:
I think there are two main possibilities here:
First, Annett has stepped on too many toes in the AFN, and has been marginalized--and perhaps he deserves to be. AFN politics is a minefield, and a white guy blundering around with talk of conspiracies and genocide is not going to get very far in that realm, especially when he starts pointing his finger at AFN officials.
Secondly, the AFN has its Truth and Reconciliation Committee all ready to go, funded and staffed and at the starting gate. As I've said before, I know how institutions work, and mavericks are not wanted when a strategy requiring focus and coordination has been planned and is in the process of being implemented.
The point is, though, that Annett's been around for a while, and now he has transmitted information naming specific places where bodies are allegedly buried. If he's been fantasizing, then an investigation of a few of these sites should settle that once and for all. He's bet the farm on this one, so let's see what he's got.
Incidentally, does anyone know about this First Nations Drum site? Here's an article that is on point.
Whether this pans out or not will be determined by an investigation, not by the stupid personal attacks.
Dr.Dawg | Homepage | 05.05.08 - 6:27 pm
The title of this entire post smacks of stupid personal attacks to me.
How so? I documented my claims of bigotry at the very beginning of the post. The "smallpox blankets" was a keeper, wouldn't you say? Or did you simply skip over that part?
Dr Dawg:
Who exactly are you addressing your call for an inquiry to? You have previously said aboriginal peoples must be in the forefront, but now you admit the AFN doesn't appear to be interested and you are suggesting some kind of institutional bias is behind that, rather than empirical scepticism. Are you suggesting the government should call an inquiry and demand the AFN lead it no matter what the AFN thinks? So much for self-government. And what do you think of this maverick "white guy" running to the UN in such circumstances?
It is one thing for native peoples to allege their political leaders aren't responsive to them, quite another for non-natives to do so.
You have previously said aboriginal peoples must be in the forefront...
I reviewed the post and comments and I couldn't find where Dawg asserted this.
Let's have another "liars and charlatans," thread. That topic is never fleshed out in a way that's satisfactory.
And no, Peter, I'm not calling you a liar or a charlatan. I'm just constantly baffled by the tendency to imply all kinds of beliefs and motivations in the absence of any evidence whatsoever.
In fairness, I did say somewhere (I think in the comments thread in my earlier post on the subject) that I thought Native people should be central to the investigation--I think it was in response to a comment by Holly Stick.
And that's true. What's more, I think Native people should be the ones who make their own leaders accountable. I haven't, however, gone much further with this than to set out these matters of principle. An investigation, with suitable expertise, responsible to the Native communities involved, is called for.
I think this would be in everyone's interests, including those of the harsh critics of Annett. It's an each-way win, as I've said before.
In fairness, I did say somewhere (I think in the comments thread in my earlier post on the subject) that I thought Native people should be central to the investigation--I think it was in response to a comment by Holly Stick.
Well, in any investigation, those who are in possession of evidence (leaving aside for the moment whether it might be credible or verifiable) are an integral part, and in this case, that would certainly include Native people. I think Peter is suggesting that an investigation led by anyone with any kind of agenda would bias the investigation, which is true, but not something I'm sure you expressed anywhere here.
I'm completely unconcerned by this at this time, because I generally have faith in the competence of the people we usually assign to tasks like this, as the long as the process is transparent.
Peter, are you saying that crimes that may or may not have been committed against aboriginals are not the responsibility of anyone who isn't themselves aboriginal? It's just not any of our business?
Wow, this making shit up out of whole cloth stuff is fun....
Cameron/Ti-guy
What in the world are you two going on about now? I simply asked Dr. Dawg who he wanted to conduct the inquiry if the AFN wasn't calling for it themselves, given that he thought natives should be central to it? There is a long history of government and other non-native interests professing to recognize the national bodies and then trying to circumvent them by going "to the people" or allying with dissidents factions.
The investigation of the allegations that we are discussing should directly involve the Native communities, but I don't think anyone has said that it should be confined to them.
The more I dig into this, the more I find the dismissive treatment of these allegations by the media and others worrisome. Glavin's article, for example, mocks the very notion that some of the kids might have been used in medical experiments. But if they were, they would have been far from alone. Check out Saul Krugman's grossly unethical experiments, for example, or Ewen Cameron's (not, admittedly, perfomed on children). Or the infamous "Monster Study." And the Duplessis orphans story--no fairy tale either--has it all: a mass grave, electroshock as punishment, medical experiments, you name it. Outlandish. Wild. True.
There is a difference between healthy scepticism and willful ignorance. It's too bad that the screechy Right so often confuses the two. (And sometimes the motives are pretty clear--gotta love Shaidle's "where are smallpox blankets now that we need 'em" shtick. Hyuck, hyuck. Gawd, every time I read her or Kate McMillan I hear the sound of banjos.)
The Krugman link is here--Haloscan will not accept posts with more than three links.
Check out Saul Krugman's grossly unethical experiments, for example...
Here's another link. Tinfoil hat stuff, right? Except that these experiments, too, have been meticulously documented and are now part of the public record.
Peter, if there are unmarked graves and the implication of malfeasance leading to said graves being filled... by golly that sounds like a job for some governmental organization that takes care of law enforcement... perhaps on a national level...
if only we had such an entity here in Canada...
Cameron:
And who should do it? I repeat: not the RCMP, with their sordid history of racism against First Nations people. An independent commission of forensic anthropologists and archaeologists would be my suggestion.
Dr. Dawg, April 21st, 2008, 2:46 pm
You will have to take this one up with the boss.
Hey Peter,
Just because you're and yours are incapable of independent thought, doesn't mean that I suffer from the same problems.
What in the world are you two going on about now?
The usual. Picking at the langauage to make sure assertions are grounded in evidence and that mischaractherisations are not derailing the discussion and causing loss of focus.
Don't be so testy.
The RCMP were the enforcers of mandatory attendance at the 'Indian' Residential Schools. When children escaped, the RCMP tracked them down with dogs and harassed and abused them as the escapees lived on the streets of the cities. The children couldn't go home as they would be caught and returned to the schools. The RCMP themselves have plenty to hide. Despite numerous requests, they have investigated NOTHING!
Residential schools were about destroying trraditional leadership and replacing them with aboriginal leaders willing (for a price) to be suvservient to Canada. Today they are know as the AFN and Band Councils. These 'chiefs' are chosen for obesience to Canada and for willingness to give away traditional lands and resources, sometimes for their own personal benefit.
The government and the AFN have already planted the conclusion ... "neglect but not intentional" ... in the mouths of several well-compensated 'academics' like John Milloy. That is the version Canadians are supposed to believe. Again, the schools were about the destruction of traditional culture with its legal ties and titles to the land.
I learned of the extent of the holocaust from traditional Indigenous Peoples who are still waiting for the churches and the government to tell them what happened to the other half of their children who never came home from the residential schools. The stories of unmarked mass graves are true. The eye witness reports of Indigenous children forced to bury other Indigenous children are true. The report is true too of two such children forced to bury a child alive, this week published in the Edmonton Sun.
If it is all true, would our government allow Canadians to know the truth? Especially those Canadians who came to 'wonderful Canada' in the last half century who know nothing of the skeletons in Canada's closets? Not bloody likely!
Covering up crimes against humanity is a crime itself. Our government continues to be complicit in the genocide. Canadians who pull the wool over their own eyes perpetuate the crimes.
Canada's economy is ENTIRELY dependent on resources taken from traditional Indigenous land, without compensation to the starving Indigenous communities who have legal rifghts on that land. Canada ignores their rights unless they protest. Then, historically, Canada sends RCMP or other goon squads to suppress their rights.
Half of the children in the residential schools were murdered. Surviving students were sterilized, as were parents in the villages. The purpose was to obliterate traditional culture and people, to destroy their connections to the land, so Canada could steal it. It continues to happen today, but now Indigenous communities are able to fight back. Canada can no longer send goon squads to suppress protest, as it has throughout history. Email, text, and cell phone communication now prevent Canada's oppression of Indigenous land rights by force, as Julian Fantino found out recently in Tyendinaga.
I'm still waiting for Ty(rant)-Guy to apologize to Peter. I'm not one of Dawg's sycophantic bobble-heads but can at least recall his previous postings.
Another thought: The uber-concern rampant here -- despite the disinterest of aboriginal leaders -- reminds me of Lucy Warman exploiting the HRC/T's in his one-man crusade on behalf of "protected" groups who were not themselves offended. Do I spy a tendency?
As Thomas Sowell wrote in his column today: "The time is long overdue to stop gullibly accepting the left's vision of itself as idealistic, rather than self-aggrandizing." (http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/
sowell050608.php3)
TSF:
I would really like to discourage pointless trolling at my place, if I might.
Annett is not the only player here. The Tribunal that Annett is involved with is all-Native:
Hereditary Chief Kiapilano of the Squamish Nation;
Chief Louis Daniels (Whispers Wind), Anishinabe Nation;
Chief Svnoyi Wohali (Night Eagle), Cherokee Nation;
Lillian Shirt, Clan Mother, Cree Nation;
Elder Ernie Sandy, Anishinabe (Ojibway) Nation;
Hereditary Chief Steve Sampson, Chemainus Nation;
Ambassador Chief Red Jacket of Turtle Island.
Are you saying that these people are all whack-jobs? Are stories like this one all bogus?
I'm still waiting for Ty(rant)-Guy to apologize to Peter.
I can think of nothing more tyrannical than someone demanding someone apologise to someone else.
You authoritarians really have absolutely no self-awareness.
The thing about investigating where mass graves are alleged to be is that if they are located on Indian Reserve land, then nobody has a right to go digging them up without consulting the First Nation whose reserve it is. And I would expect the people living there to have some idea of whether such a thing existed. The Tyee article and this one by Judith Lavoie both report that some of the First Nations there were sceptical.
http://www.canada.com/victoriati...&k=10593http://
I think the residential schools were much like Mount Cashel in that the children might not see their families for years, so would have had no one to go to for help. No doubt the Department of Indian Affairs inspected the schools but I don't know how often or how carefully.
We know there was physical and sexual abuse, so it would not be surprising to learn of some children being killed by their abusers. I find the suggestion of mass murder resulting in mass graves more difficult to swallow. I dunno, maybe there were serial killers at some schools, or maybe I've been watching too much Criminal Minds.
There was a high death rate in schools in the early 1900s, as PH Bryce reported. I think that the schools were underfunded and the children were malnourished and so very vulnerable to diseases. Cause of death might have been recorded as TB, but probably should have been TB and malnutrition. Remember the schools in Yorkshire Dickens wrote about in Nicholas Nickleby?
There was also malnutrition and disease among the general population. On the prairies at least, the populations of First Nations declined from the 1870s into the 1900s. At some point in the early 1900s, each individual population hit bottom and started increasing. Some sold land and got cash or increased rations which led to better health.
The study of aboriginal history in Canada has mostly developed in the last 40 years, though there were a few earlier notable studies. It seems to have concentrated first on the fur trade and the treaties; and more recently on the reserve period. But I think it will take a while to build up an understanding of the whole system of reserves, schools and all. I think there has been concentration on specific land claims (because historians would be hired to research them). But there is the report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples.
Part of the residential schools settlement is to establish a research centre, so there will probably be more information coming out down the road.
Hi, Holly,
Would you consider the deliberate mixing of TB-infected and healthy kids to be a kind of homicide?
Incidentally, I've read Bryce's pamphlet, "The Story of a National Crime," and there's no such charge in there--in fact, he states (p.5) that "In no instance was a child awaiting admission to school found free from tuberculosis" in a study of Albertan residential schools in 1909.
Now, Annett claims that an Addendum in 1909 to Bryce's better-known 1907 report states plainly that children were deliberately infected, and he used the phrase "national crime" to describe this:
I believe the conditions are being deliberately created in our residential schools to spread infectious diseases. It is not unusual for children who are dying from consumption to be admitted to schools and housed alongside healthy children. This is a national crime.
Do you perchance know where I can find this document? It would save me a few hours in the National Archives.
Hi Dawg; here is a list of 7 references when I searched the RG 10 records at NAC for the word "Bryce"; Ref #2 looks like it's about his 1907 report which was about the prairie provinces and probably correspondence about it. I don't know if it would also have information that went into the 1909 report on Alberta schools. References #3, #5 and #6 also are files about Bryce.
http://data4.collectionscanada.c..._e.html&r=0&
f=S
Dr. Dawg: Regarding your Q to Holly, have you read the RCAP report Chapter 10 dealing with Residential Schools?
Just one money quote:
"Overcrowding, the most critical dynamic in the spread of tuberculosis, was systemic,156 a predictable outcome of underfunding and of the per capita grant arrangement that put a premium on each student taken from a community. Senior church officials lobbied the government constantly not only for higher rates but for implementation of a compulsory education regime that would ensure that the schools earned the maximum grant possible.157 For their part, the principals, unable to make ends meet, as rates were rarely increased to the level of real costs, pushed to have their authorized enrolments raised. The pressure to keep schools full meant there was a tendency to take as many children as possible, often going past wise limits, with disastrous consequences.158 This led to bizarre recruitment techniques, including, local officials reported, "bribing and kidnapping".159 As well, officials were not very careful about the health of the children they brought into the schools. The Anglican Bishop of Caledonia in British Columbia admitted candidly, "The per capita grant system encourages the taking in of those physically and intellectually unfit simply to keep up numbers".160"
Link here: http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ch/rc.../sg/
sgmm_e.html
Dr. Dawg,
The problem isn't a lot of what Annett is saying--because much of it is true. But there's still plenty of reason to doubt him on a few fronts.
I became pretty suspicious when Annett accused the former moderator of the United Church, Rev. Bill Phipps of being involved in a mass coverup of the supposed genocide. I know Bill and anyone else who knows him thinks this charge is laughable. In fact, Bill was the Moderator who facilitated the public apology about the church's complicity in the residential schools. In fact, if there were a coverup, Bill would be the first person there trying to uncover it. Google him and judge for yourself whether or not he'd be involved in such a thing and you'll have your answer for Annett's credibility.
I'll link the Tyee article by Terry Glavin again because it sums it up pretty well.
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/04/.../TruthAndAbuse/
Problem is, the majority of what he calls a veiled conspiracy is already known, is already a matter of public record. Annett is not simply a "loon," but is not presenting the facts as they are. Who knows, he might have a vendetta against the United Church for asking for his resignation. Who knows, he might just be a liar. He might be crazy. But at any rate, Kevin Annett is not the person to look to for answers in relation to residential schools.
I 100% endorse any investigations into any allegations by former residential school students, and any settlements that come out of it. But I don't support Kevin Annett.
Thank you, HS and TSF, for the links. I decided to bite the bullet and ask Annett directly about the Addendum (1909). I sent him an email about it. I'll try to get to the National Archives this week as well. This one I'd like to see for myself, because all references to the document seem to go back to the same source.
As noted, Bryce did not accuse the schools/government, etc. of deliberately infecting healthy Native kids in his "The Story of a National Crime." That he was incredibly unhappy about the fate of his "wards," there is no doubt. And he is simply scathing about Duncan Campbell Scott. No accusations of murder that I've been able to find so far, though/
There does seem to be more to this. The issue of underfunding, by the way, is taken up by Milloy. Thanks again.
Ryan:
As I've said before, I don't think Annett is the issue. I've never held a brief for the man--I don't know him. Some of his charges seem pretty wild to me. Others, more believable. What do you make of the Native leaders who have lined up with him (the Tribunal members)?
Dawg here's more information (my computer's performance is crappy these days and it freezes a lot). E. Brian Titley's book A Narrow Vision has several pages about Bryce and Titley's reference for the November 1909 report is RG 10, volume 3957 file 140,754-1. Here's the reference; note that the reels are C-10166 and C-10167.
http://data4.collectionscanada.c..._e.html&r=0&
f=S
These references are in the Black series which is supposed to be put online, but it's not done yet.
The Glenbow has a copy of the 1907 report so it at least was published by the government; and you might check the Annual Reports of the Department of Indian Affairs for about 1907 to 1910; which may be separate volumes but also are part of the yearly Sessional Papers (all the federal gov't annual reports). I don't know if those would be available in National Archives reference or maybe in the Library. The University of Calgary Library has the published volumes and also microfiche, so I have never looked for them at NAC.
Other books about schools are JR Miller's Shingwauk's Vision, which has just a little about Bryce, and JS Milloy's book, which I don't have but which probably has more about Bryce.
Dawg, the Annual Reports are online and there is a report in the one for 1909 by Bryce dated June 1909:
http://
www.collectionscanada.gc....ds1oj3j685csfd4
It starts on page 305. You look at a page at a time and can also view an image of the original page; or you can search (I searched for "tuberculosis" and checked a group of consecutive pages). You might also want to check the 1910 one. (Since Titley had a date of November 1909, it might have ended up in the 1910 report.)
Here's the 1910 annual report, where Bryce's report starts on page 293:
http://
www.collectionscanada.gc....ds1oj3j685csfd4
Genocide is a question of 'intent'. Kevin Annett believes the evidence indicates that the deaths of children in the residential schools were intentional ... as DC Scott said, the high rate of death "...does not indicate a need for change in the policies of the government, which are geared to the final solution of the Indian problem."
John Milloy and the government (by whom he is oftem employed) and the churches prefer to conclude that it was negligent, but not intentional, and thus not genocide.
Separation of people with TB was established as medical policy in Canada in 1901. In 1907, Bryce found it was not being implemented in the residential schools and thus many more children than 'normal' were being infected and dying. In 1909, he wrote the additional follow up letter quoted above. After his retirement, he wrote the book "A National Crime", again trying to urge implementation of this most basic treatment of TB patients. In 1936, another medical officer reported that children with TB were still not separated in the residential schools. Thus, in spite of national medical policy implemented everywhere else in the country, and several very strong recommendations and demands of the government, children continued to be infected and die at horrific rates for three decades that we know of for sure.
In my opinion, this was not 'an accident' of negligence, but an intentional government policy. Even more telling, however, is the fact that children and adults alike were sterilized. What purpose is there to that expect to rid the country of that race? In Kevin Annett's film, there is a report from a woman who said the doctor told her if she married a traditional leader, he would have to sterilize her. And he did, and he was paid $300 by the government for each person he sterilized. So were huindreds of other doctors across the country, apparently on orders to target the traditional leaders for extinction. That targeting of traditional leaders for extinction pretty much clarifies what Canada's 'intent' was, in my opinion.
I say this as one who used to be proud of Canada until I learned the truth from Indigenous elders. I say this also knowing that there are many young Aboriginal Canadians who know nothing of this genocidal intent, and who may not want to believe it. Sadly, Canada only values those Indigenous people who surrendered their traditional ways and leaders and assimilated fully into Canadian society. It was not just about racism. It was and is about land, the land and resources that Canada treats as its own and depends on, but has no legal right to.
Indigenous rights and sovereignty cannot be extinguished just because Canada said "Poof! You're a Canadian now!" Indigenous rights to land and sovereignty must be surrendered, and that has never happened.
Canada's 'solution' continues to be denial (by ignoring them, or by force) of legal rights of Indigenous Peoples. However, all they ask is a say in developme
Holly:
Thank you very much for all of the references, which I shall chase up. Annett did get back to me, saying this:
The Bryce quote is not from his 1922 report "A National Crime", but from a letter he wrote to DIA in 1909 after a second trip he made to western residential schools. I can get the document reference for you but it is taken from the DIA's RG 10 series on residential schools, Vol. 7733, in the Koerner Library at the University of BC.
As it happens, Carleton University appears to have the RG-10 series, so I'm going to pop over there later today.
granny:
In 1936, another medical officer reported that children with TB were still not separated in the residential schools.
Do you have a reference for this that I could look at? Many thanks.
At the risk of another trolling accusation, could I respectfully ask whether discussing the way forward might be a more valuable use of participants' time?
My point is that Canada is already on a trajectory to apologize for the residential schools. The current thread MAY be shedding light on the scope of past injustices, mismanagement, etc. And, it might help to inform ongoing policy development -- learning from past mistakes, for eg.
But, isn't the most important topic what, if anything, the Canadian government should do in the future to allow Canada's aboriginals to achieve their full potential as Canadian citizens?
Since residential schools were closed, millions of immigrants arrived here and successfully integrated into Canadian life -- with little, if any, subsidy from government. In that same period, taxpayers have spent about $10 billion per year (today's dollars) across all levels of government to support fewer than 1 million aboriginals.
Quibble about the no's and how the money was spent -- employing legions of unionized public servants, for eg. But, the outcomes are not flattering. What are we doing wrong and what do we do instead?
TSowell Fan, do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Can't one investigate alleged crimes at the same time as figuring out what went wrong?
(though clearly you believe it has something to do with unions..)
Cameron:
I'm duly chastened. Of course, we can -- and most of us are -- participating in multiple conversations.
But, time is a scarce resource. Better to focus on past or future -- given we can't change the past (altho we might learn some lessons from it)and the meter continues to click over at the rate of $10B/yr, while the desired destination seems to recede further and further away from us?
I'm, for eg, puzzled about how aboriginals can maintain their traditional ways -- as I keep hearing they desire -- in the modern world. Some of them seem to embrace the Internet, for eg. Are others being taught high-speed smoke signalling? Is there an aboriginal approach to teaching mathematics? How were aboriginals able to survive before Europeans arrived but now seem unable to on their remote reserves?
Please excuse my glib wording -- just trying to quickly highlight my personal puzzlement about how to bridge two worlds that aboriginals seem to want to occupy. Or maybe I'm even wrong about that. (Gosh, I've just left myself open for a broadside from Ty(rant)-Guy but have run out of time to worry about it.)
Now that I think about it, maybe a useful question that meets Ty(rant)-Guy half-way might be "How can Canada's aboriginals lead "authentic" lives in today's world?"
"Now that I think about it, maybe a useful question that meets Ty(rant)-Guy half-way might be "How can Canada's aboriginals lead "authentic" lives in today's world?"
Ignoring your childish name-calling, I think a place to start would be by getting the history as well-documented as is humanly possible. I listened recently to a series of CBC podcasts about French-Canadian/Québec historical narratives by Jocelyn Létourneau ("Passages to the Future," Ideas, pts 1-4, March 17-April 7, 2008; also here) about how a people can end up trapped and/or manipulated by historical innacuracies or distortions that are rendered even more pernicious by lack of evidence.
You're jumping the gun here. In any case, no one should listen to the advice of people who are hostile to them. A better discussion among non-Natives might be..."Why do we care or pretend to care? What are we doing to help? Why are we getting in their way?"
Si vous ne pouvez pas nous aider, ne nous nuisez pas.
TSowell Fan, time is indeed a scarce resource, but investigating allegations of past misdeeds (especially those that allegedly lead to deaths) seems to me to be a good use of time. It would occur to me that an extension of your logic in this case could be used to shut down investigations and scholarship into Aparthied era South Africa, the excesses of various dictatorships and most genocides. I'm not saying that is your intent, by any means, but if one follows this far enough out, one arrives at this desination.
Further (and this is not on you, it's a simplification of things that is perpetuated by governments and media and the educational system) there is no one voice to Aboriginals any more than there is one voice for white people or left wing people or black people or right wing people or feminists.
Some aboriginals want to live in one manner, others in another...
"What are WE doing wrong?"
The problem is inherent in your question: WE are still trying to control and 'manage' the lives of Indigenous Peoples.
WE need, instead, to honour our treaties with them, respect their sovereignty and right to self-determination, as well as their right to a say in development and a share in revenues on their traditional land.
In other words, all CorporationCanada has to do is to obey our own laws ... for a change.
That is the general go-forward. However, there must also be truth about the government's 'intent'for the residential schools and other strategies. The intent is nicely captured by the poster above who wonders why Indigenous Peoples have not assimilated into our dominant society like immigrants have: That was and is exactly Canada's 'intent'. However, being human, Indigenous Peoples have the right to make that choice themselves, the right to self-determination. So the answer to your question is ... Because they do not choose to. Instead, they choose to retain their culture and connections to their land as is their legal right as Indigenous Peoples of this land.
Canada's 'right' is to honour the treaties that allow us to live on Indigenous land.
And I must add ... Canada must stop trying to destroy their connections to their land and trying to extinguish their rights, for that is genocide ... "...intent to destroy, in whole or in part...".
From beginning to now, Canada's whole strategy, purpose and intent has been the extinguishment of Indigenous rights and their existence as peoples ... genocide.
"How were aboriginals able to survive before Europeans arrived but now seem unable to on their remote reserves?"
Because they were not then victims of Canada's genocide. For example, the waters, land and air were free of toxins and they could eat the fish, game and harvest the berries without getting Mini-mata disease, etc.
For an example of the continuing impact of our society on a remote traditional Indigenous community see Grassy Narrows story here ...
http://www.montrealmirror.com/AR...2003/
news3.html
Then google up Fort Chippewyan AB and Health Canada's coverup of industrial toxins there.
"k. Two distinct standards of health and medical care were practiced by government and church doctors at the residential schools, along clear racial lines. Native children received a consistently lower standard of attention and treatment (e.g., letter of Dr. F. Pitts, Lejac school, 1934)."
This may be it. However, I believe there may also be a follow up inspection and report in the RG-10 series. The "lower standard" includes not separating the children with TB.
I can email you a copy of the full summary "Facts" sheet from which this quote is taken, if you wish.
Dawg, that Volune 7733 reference looks wrong to me:
When I search the RG 10 database at NAC, I get files about roads:
http://data4.collectionscanada.c..._e.html&r=0&
f=S
Here's a novel concept for improving the credibility of y'all Leftists: Find the evidence first, then make the charge of wrongdoing.
Annett's book Hidden from History: The Canadian Holocaust was published three years ago. Was this book written before he had any proof? Where is the proof? Is there any that is not between the walls or beneath the basements of beautiful Western churches?
So for you Leftist Western-haters, here is a challenge: Here is a link to the Wikipedia article on the Canadian Residential School System.
If you have any verifiable proof of mass graves of children related to wrong-doing in this system, please edit the article so everyone will know.
By the way granny, throughout history whenever two populations come into contact with one another, disease has caused widespread death.
The reason, that European settlers were less likely to be the ones to succumb, is that millions of their ancestors without antibodies to various killer diseases, had already died so that only those who were immune remained.
These cases throughout history are a human tragedy, but is was no one's 'fault', unless you want to blame folks for not inventing modern medicine soon enough.
"Leftist Western-haters"?
Who the hell hates the West?
Anyone here?
I love the west, I think there are great things about the west.. wonderful things... I also believe in investigating allegations of crimes. I thought it was the Right that was all law and order.
Freedom Fan, you need to learn a little more history. Children who died of TB in residential schools did not die because they had less immunity, plenty of white people died of TB. But people who were malnourished were more likely to die of TB than well-fed people, and children in residential schools were often malnourished.
As for the "Leftist Western-haters" remark, go screw yourself.
Dawg, that Volune 7733 reference looks wrong to me
I'll be heading over to the National Archives this weekend--they have the RG-10 series, and a finding aid as well.
Granny says: "The problem is inherent in your question: WE are still trying to control and 'manage' the lives of Indigenous Peoples."
I say: Amen, sister, let's dismantle Indian Affairs and focus only on settling legal conflicts between aboriginals and Her Majesty -- land claims, treaties, etc. Let's show the damn government that natives don't need handouts from the rest of Canadians. Let's show other Canadians that aboriginals are not going to let the Residential School fiasco define them for generations. Let's restore Toronto and other places to the glory they once knew before Europeans arrived. You go girl!
Granny says: "And I must add ... Canada must stop trying to destroy their connections to their land and trying to extinguish their rights, for that is genocide ... "...intent to destroy, in whole or in part...".
This sounds a teensy-weensy bit like a Reverend Wrightism: AIDS was developed to wipe out blacks. But, the damn government can't even get that right: they keep spending money to find AIDS cures -- and even to give those cures away to blacks on far-off continents.
Our equally incompetent government, rather than achieving the aboriginal genocide so frequently cited by Dr. Dawg's guests, have instead created conditions for natives to have one of the highest birthrates in Canada.
I guess at the end of the day that is the only common ground at this site: we all agree that government can't do anything right.
Freedom,
We have eye witness reports, sometimes corroborated independently. We have similar reports all across the country, again independently, suggesting consistent church and/or government policy at work.
And we have Duncan Campbell Scott's arrogant mouth that incriminates himself and the government.
We are awaiting the beginning of a non-governmental international forensic investigation.
ts
Canada's attempts to extinguish Indigenous land rights are continuing today, and are written in policy.That is the whole focus of their negotiations, and that is why they take so long and often break down: because Indigenous communities will not accept that. Indigenous rights cannot be taken awy, they can only be given up ... and why would they?
It is well known that genocides are followed by resurgence in birth rates, so your argument works against you. It also betrays an extremely callous disregard for humanity.
Whassa matta? Stormfront down today?
Granny:
I'm unaware of Stormfront. I get my weather forecasts from Environment Canada's site or the Weather Channel.
Umm, I think you may have undermined your own argument by claiming that the genocide is still in progress. Unless when you said this: " ... Canada must stop trying to destroy their connections to their land and trying to extinguish their rights, for that is genocide ...", you didn't actually mean it.
Or maybe there is an "aboriginal" dictionary containing different definitions of words like "genocide" and "treaty" than the rest of us use.
Anyway, let us all know when the genocide ends so that we can watch for a further jump in the aboriginal birthrate.
I think it would be wise to bring two ideas into this discussion: first, I think granny is presently referring to ethnocide. Secondly, one of the definitions of "genocide" in the UN articulation of the term is removing children from one group and relocating them with another group.
Arguably, the residential schools system could be seen as an instance of the latter (and clearly the former), and it is interesting that Canada never signed on to that part of the UN definition. (If sources for this are needed, I'll dig them up tonight--I'm off to a conference now.)
I think it would be wise to apply what Thomas Sowell said about the U.S. to Canada:
"... emphasis on promoting economic advancement has produced far more progress than attempts to redress past wrongs, even when those historic wrongs have been obvious, massive and indisputable."
Yeah, so lets not even figure out what happened... I mean what's the point.. ONWARD WITH THE INVISIBLE HAND...
God I long for the resurgence of the Red Tory, or at least conservatism where the heart and the brain haven't been surgically separated at birth.
I'm having difficulty understanding how identifying historic wrongs as "obvious, massive and indisputable" translates in your world into "let's not even figure out what happened".
Sowell's point is about the best way to move forward: blaming Whitey forever or getting on with "authentic" living (to re-use what I now realize is Ty(rant)-Guy's invaluable phrase).
Is there a link to the dictionary you guys use? Does it have the word "Victimhood" in its title?
Has Freedom Fan exposed the truth? Is much of the opposition to investigations rooted in the idea that they are intended to make Western Canada look bad?
TSF:
I think that looking for closure is not the same thing as craving "victimhood." You can insult Native people to your heart's content, but I'd prefer you not do so in my house. The legacy of the residential schools is felt on every reserve today. Broken children made broken adults. This is not the distant past, but all too recent. A little sensitivity on your part would go a long way towards moving this conversation forward.
Dr. D:
As Cameron might say, "Need the search for closure (wrt the Residential School fiasco) be mutually exclusive from an ongoing preoccupation with victimhood?". (You can soften "victimhood" to "institutionalized dependency" or "shaking the money tree" if you consider those expressions more sensitive.)
Canada is well along a path to atone for the Residential Schools -- financial compensation, Truth & Reconciliation Commission (or something similar) & a formal public apology on behalf of the Gov't and all Canadians. I'm trying to suggest that we let that process unfold and focus on trying to understand the big problems that result in many aboriginals living in 3rd world conditions despite the expenditure of $10B EVERY year by various levels of government.
Insulting natives has no purpose to me. Countering nonsense statements -- sometimes with a healthy dose of sarcasm to emphasize a point -- used to be acceptable in Canada before political correctness took over, however. Silly rubbish about conservatives' separation of brain and heart don't seem to register on your sensitivity meter. We are, after all, a much maligned minority -- right?
It is unfortunate that Canada's natives don't have a few influential people like the black community has in the US -- Bill Cosby, Thomas Sowell or Larry Elder, for eg -- to point out that many of their problems are self-inflicted and recommend some remedial behavior.
Many immigrants arrive here with far less support than most of our natives receive and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I am not for not helping natives; I am for reforming their governance. having them recognize that aligning themselves with the modern world -- while preserving their traditions just as the rest of us do -- and accelerating land claim settlements (and many other constructive actions that will enable them to enjoy the prosperity that most of their fellow Canadians do).
Shorter TSowell Fan: We want to solve the problem here, so it's important to avoid figuring out what the problem actually consists of or what caused it. Only in ignorance of its nature can we effectively solve the problem!
This is actually amazingly typical of right wing approaches to problems in general.
Dr. Dawg,
Do you have any links to stories or documents about aboriginal leaders that have stood with Annett? I haven't really read anything regarding chiefs besides Hereditary Chief Kiapilano. I'd like to investigate further if possible, but from my understanding the vast majority of chiefs have distanced themselves from Annett, as has Amnesty. But if you've got links, I'd like to read them to get a better picture.
Ryan:
I regret that I have only the names that I provided earlier on in the thread. And I have no idea about their relations with other Chiefs or with the AFN. The truth is that I think your assessment is generally correct--the AFN is not on-side with this, and that's where most of the Chiefs are.
Sorry I can't be more helpful with this.
TSowell Fan: "But, the outcomes are not flattering. What are we doing wrong and what do we do instead?"
Purple Library Guy: "We want to solve the problem here, so it's important to avoid figuring out what the problem actually consists of or what caused it."
Dr. Dawg: "... please try to debate the issues in a civil manner. Sniping and trolling are for enemy soldiers and fish, respectively."
TSowell Fan: "I'm trying Dr. but anything but all-consuming expressions of white guilt evoke insults about being right wing. This is yet another 'dialogue of the deaf' courtesy of folk more interested in dwelling on the past than moving forward."
Racist and Holocaust Denier maligns Residential School survivors and their advocate, Kevin Annett Eagle Strong Voice, in Tyee magazine
Statement by the Indigenous Elders of The International Human Rights Tribunal into Genocide in Canada (IHRTGC)
For International Media Release
30 April, 2008
Squamish Nation Territory ("Vancouver, Canada")
We are shocked and disgusted by an article that appeared this week in the west coast magazine "The Tyee", authored by Terry Glavin. This article is nothing more than a racist denial of the claims of residential school survivors that children died and were buried in mass graves across Canada.
The article is also a scathing and unsubstantiated personal attack on the one caucasian man who has fought consistently and with great self-sacrifice for residential school survivors in Canada, Reverend Kevin Annett, who has been given the sacred name Eagle Strong Voice by our elder and IHRTGC judge Chief Louis Daniels, and adopted by him into the Anishinabe Nation. We therefore consider any attack made upon Reverend Annett to be an attack on the Anishinabe people, and on us.
We consider The Tyee to have violated and dishonoured our people by printing this hateful and misleading article, and we demand its formal retraction and the public censure of Terry Glavin by the magazine and by all concerned citizens.
Until The Tyee takes these steps, we call upon all people to boycott this publication.
For generations we have fought against the kind of ignorance and racism spouted by Mr. Glavin, who is basically calling our people liars.
For example, Glavin insultingly refers to eyewitnesses' accounts of residential school graves as "urban legends ... like alligators in New York sewers" (!).
In effect, Glavin is saying that there are no mass graves of native children, when the very body he claims to support - the government's "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" - has already cited evidence that children in these schools were buried "four or five to a grave".
This is not an "urban legend", as Glavin sarcastically claims. This is the truth, as witnessed by Sylvester Greene, who personally buried an Inuit child at the United Church school in Edmonton in 1953; or William Combes, who saw a priest bury a child at the Kamloops Catholic school in 1964.
Is Glavin calling these men liars? Why has he not interviewed them, and given their story the same exposure as he has his hatred against Reverend Annett?
And why does Glavin falsely claim that the RCMP have "investigated" these claims and "found nothing"? This is an outright lie, for on countless occasions, we have taken this evidence to the RCMP, who have flatly refused to investigate. For they, like Mr. Glavin, are actively concealing this crime of genocide against our people.
With typical colonial arrogance, and speaking in the same tongue as our church and government abusers, Terry Glavin states that all our claims are already k
With typical colonial arrogance, and speaking in the same tongue as our church and government abusers, Terry Glavin states that all our claims are already known, and that the history of the residential schools is not hidden. What a lie this is! The real story of these schools has only begun to be told, as is evident in Glavin's and The Tyee's refusal to reprint or comment on any of the evidence of murders, forced sterilizations and mass graves that we have submitted to them over the past four years.
Rather than help our people, Terry Glavin engages in the worst kind of character assassination and yellow journalism by attacking Rev. Annett personally, belittling and mocking the physical attacks made against him, and subjecting him to the same kind of cruelty that has been inflicted on him by those in church and state who are responsible for the torture and death of our children in residential schools. We therefore must ask if Glavin is working for these same destructive parties.
We are especially appalled that Glavin is posing as a "supporter" of our people while conducting such a hateful and destructive assault on our work and the word of residential school survivors. Lacking the honesty or courage to attack us directly, Glavin targets Reverend Annett, who he portrays as being the author of the claims of murder and mass burials at residential schools.
Let this be clear: the claims that Glavin is attacking concerning the murder and burial of residential school children do not emanate from Kevin Annett, but from hundreds of eyewitnesses who saw these killings, participated in burying children, or personally experienced the brutalities documented so accurately by Reverend Annett since 1996. Reverend Annett is simply the messenger of these accounts.
In that regard, we stand by every statement made by Reverend Annett concerning crimes in Indian Residential Schools, and we challenge Mr. Glavin and The Tyee to refute them with evidence of their own.
In addition, on March 16, 2008, Reverend Annett was appointed as the personal agent of hereditary Squamish Chief Kiapilano, on whose land Mr. Glavin lives and The Tyee is published. We therefore consider Terry Glavin and The Tyee to have violated their occupancy of Chief Kiapilano's land, and Chief Kiapilano's hospitality, and we call upon both Terry Glavin and The Tyee to vacate Squamish territory immediately.
Let us conclude by saying that we consider Terry Glavin's article to be an outright assault on all residential school survivors and their struggle to be heard and believed. Glavin and The Tyee have set back the clock and added to the crushing burden on our people by undermining that struggle.
We insist that, once it has relocated, The Tyee immediately open its pages to those residential school survivors who can speak of the murders they have witnessed, and the burial sites they know exist. If it refuses to, we must assume that the Tyee endorses the racist and irresponsible
We insist that, once it has relocated, The Tyee immediately open its pages to those residential school survivors who can speak of the murders they have witnessed, and the burial sites they know exist. If it refuses to, we must assume that the Tyee endorses the racist and irresponsible garbage written by Terry Glavin.
We call upon the world to endorse our condemnation and expulsion of Terry Glavin and The Tyee, and to boycott this magazine and person.
Sincerely, we are
The Indigenous Elders of the IHRTGC, coming from the Squamish, Cree, Metis, Anishinabe, Lakota and Six Nations under the traditional Land Law Jurisdiction of Turtle Island.
Chief Louis Daniels, presiding elder
contact: genocidetribunal@yahoo.ca
30 April, 2008
Purple Library Guy, it's linked to the right wing misunderstanding of the differences between "explain" and "excuse".
I am unapologetically on the side of Kevin Annett, not because he's always right, and not because I always agree with the way he handles things, but because he's one of the precious few people willing to listen to survivors' allegations and actually do something about them. I hope more than anyone that some or even all of the allegations turn out to be untrue, but how can we ever know unless they are properly investigated?
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