Why the hell is Kent speaking out about the Middle East - isn't his portfolio North and South America?
It is nice to hear a Canadian politician laying the blame where it so clearly belongs...but there is a lot of that going around internationally.
Even the usual suspects like the UN are noticing that Hamas was firing rockets at civilian targets in Israel. So, when it come to blame Hamas wins.
Progress, of a sort, is being made.
Jay:
Kent "lays the blame" while simultaneously admitting he doesn't have the facts. Sounds like the way AGW deniers and ID enthusiasts carry on.
I'm curious about your views on Kent's extremist connections--not to mention the corporate media's silence on the issue.
The latter aren't slow to target political candidates on the Left because they are allegedly linked to 9/11 revisionism and such, but Kent gets a pass. Why do you suppose that is?
I don't think anyone would blame an abused spouse or child for acting out in violence against a parent that locks them up and then beats them again for acting out against it.
It's always the fault of the abused, they asked for it. What Hamas is doing is disgusting, but we all know why they are doing it.
Oh yeah, and Canada has decided to act in the noblest of ways by making sure the abused are fed so they can make it through another bout of abuse.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2...da-
gazaaid.html
Jay, I wonder if you have ever actually calculated how many rockets had been launched into Israel from Gaza between the start of the ceasefire, and the Nov 5 military assault launched by Israel that effectively broke the ceasefire.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+...bout+...19-Jun-
2008.htm
The Israeli governments own Ministry of truth places the number of rocket and mortars at a total of 28 for that 4 month period, hardly a bombardment. After the Israeli military invaded Gaza, and killed 6 Palestinians in direct contravention of the ceasefire, I cannot see any reason why Hamas alone should have been held to the terms of the ceasefire.
Was the launchings of rockets and mortars into Israel criminal? Of course, the targeting of civilians is not condoned by any international Convention; however instead of placing blame the blame on Hamas, which lowered the amount of missiles to only a few a months, why not look hard at the Israeli justification for invasion.
You should also be aware that the Israeli Government set up a media response team to deal with this military operation 8 months ago, or 2 months before the ceasefire was signed. and that they ran rehearsals both for Israeli media and then for foreign media 2 months ago, or a month before they gave Hamas a reason to respond.
Shorter Kent:
"Israel bombed a school, therefore Hamas must have been inside".
It was only a matter of time before someone said it. Who needs evidence, after all?
Its comments like these that make me ashamed for being Canadian.
He is more interested in pursuing his agenda instead of representing the voice of Canadians.
Shorter Hamas apologist,"Israel shoots up schools for the fun of it."
How about "Israel bombs school". Is that too Islamist for you, Jay?
Dawg, I notice that, as the wheels fall off the AGW bus, true believers insist on identifying us skeptics with the ID people. That is nothing more than a smear.
I have not paid a great deal of attention to Kent's support for various organizations. Is he a Nazi? A Leninist? Maoist? Member of Hamas/Hezbolah/Answer? The CJC/CIC? Perhaps the Heritage Front? Or, maybe, and I had not thought of this until this very instant, The Fraser Institute or the CD Howe Foundation.
Do tell.
Jay:
I'm talking about a way of thinking. That doesn't mean that all positions arrived at by magic thinking are held by the same folks. No smear intended.
I'm talking about solid scientific evidence vs. (for example) Kate MacMillan's "It's really cold today, so obviously GW is a hoax."
(Incidentally, it's as well, I guess, to make distinctions. The climate magic thinkers divide into two camps. One says "there's not enough evidence to argue that warming is man-made." The other group denies that warming is even happening, as the ice-caps continue to melt. But this is a digression.)
I know only of Kent's involvement on the executive of CCD--in fact, some are saying he's a co-founder, although I haven't been able to verify that. Isn't that enough?
Jay says: Shorter Hamas apologist,"Israel shoots up schools for the fun of it."
When the first reports of the shelling of the school came in, the reports from the IDF were that terrorists were shooting from within. Using this logic still does not mean that the school can be targetted as it still may not be a legal military target.
Later reports state that the shots were from outside the school. Now if this was an isolated incidence I may say it was a tragic mistake, but there have been 3 UN schools hit already in Gaza, each one serving as a Center for Gazan refugees and with coordinates supplied to the IDF by the UN. In addition there are reports of the IDF shelling parts of hospitals, bombing medical compounds and clinics, targetting ambulances and medics, OXFAM claims to have lost 3 medics to Israel forces.
I have no love for the terrorists that target innocent civilians, but is this not exactly what Israel is doing by targetting schools and hospitals?
Filcher has it right, hating terrorists does not preclude one from pointing out bad shit done by others.
Filcher,
So what is your theory behind Israeli bombing of schools, ambulances, and clinics? With the "international" community just waiting to denounce Israel at every turn, do you think they'd be that stupid and evil? Fact is, you have no more proof to whatever your theory is than Kent does. He just chooses to believe a liberal democracy while you choose to believe a terrorist organization.
Sorry Dawg, pointing out that a) terrorists are bad, b) Canada is not immune to terrorism, c) in the present world many terrorists are Muslims, d) that certain strains of radical Islam encourage and facilitate terrorism does not, frankly, strike me as even slightly extreme.
Certainly rather less extreme that advocating "Death to the Juice" in the streets or accusing Israel of genocide every time it attempts to defend itself from Hamas fired rockets.
Just because you disagree with a position does not mean those who hold that position are extremists.
(On the weather thing, the wheel on the scientific bus are falling off. It is taking a while and will likely take more than one cold (which is to say "normal" winter) before the axle hits the asphalt. Climate is complicated. It is always changing. The skeptic's position is that we simply do not know enough to spend billions, indeed trillions, solving a problem we don't actually understand, can barely measure and which may be overwhelmed by other factors.)
Jeebus, Jay, the least you can do is follow the links I provided. There were just three in the first graf.
Here are some statements from CCD. Given that Kent is on the Executive Committee, and that he hasn't disassociated himself from them, we can assume that he stands by them:
* Islam and the terrorism it promotes must be religated [sic] to the ash bin of history, much like what we had to do with National Socialism in Europe in the last century. --Naresh Raghubeer, CCD Executive Director [NB: This quote was subsequently taken down by CCD--presumably the mask slipped just a tad too far--but nothing disappears entirely on the Internet. --DD]
* Just by looking around the world, who could be blamed for concluding that Islam is a savage, barbaric, primitive, cruel, despotic religion... --Alistair Gordon, CCD President*
* Maoists, Muslims - small minds, big ideas, no humanity. Interesting how Canada kowtows both to the Muslim world and to Mao's China, while marginalizing those who should be our natural allies... -- Alastair Gordon, CCD President**
* Louise Arbour - Islamist mouthpiece at the UN ... When you thought Canada's unprincipled foreign policy, based primarily on being anti-American, could not sink any lower, we have the idiotic statements of Canada's own Louise Arbour... -- Alastair Gordon, CCD President
* There are all sorts of things that one cannot do on an airplane, including push-ups in the aisle and yoga. If these imams are so devout and pious, then it is their duty to avoid travel if it interferes with their piety. It is not the duty of the traveling public or airline operators to accommodate their rituals, especially when their own safety is at risk. --Alastair Gordon, CCD President [The imams in question were praying in the airport, not on a plane. --DD]
* Well, it looks to me like Sid Ryan [the President of CUPE Ontario] just confirmed that CUPE's boycott of Israel is plain, old fashioned Jew-hatred, not unlike that of his socialist mentors, the National Socialist (Nazi) Party of Germany. --Alastair Gordon, CCD President
On the basis of this sort of hateful muck, and there's plenty more where that came from, I put ten questions out there:
1) Do you support the CCD's lobbying for diplomatic and economic ties with the Indian state of Gujurat, where rioters, with government complicity, murdered, raped and dispossessed tens of thousands of Muslims, and where schoolchildren are taught to admire Adolf Hitler?
2) Did you endorse the CCD's position in favour of firing Supreme Court of Canada Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin, for chairing a meeting that awarded an Order of Canada to Dr. Henry Morgentaler?
3) Do you believe, with the CCD, that "many" Members of Parliament are "apologists for terrorists who celebrate the killing and maiming of men, women, and children?"
4) If yes, who are these Parliamentarians?
cont'd.
cont'd.
5) Do you endorse the smearing of David Suzuki by your president, Alistair Gordon, and his irresponsible retailing of the anti-environmentalist lie that a DDT ban killed millions in sub-Saharan Africa?
6) As a member of the CCD Board, what role did you play in the attempted character assassination of Liberal MP Omar Alghabra in 2005--for which your organization later had to apologize and retract?
7) Do you believe, with your colleague David Harris, that Muslim terrorists have infiltrated the FBI and CIA, the State Department, the U.S. Muslim military chaplain corps, the White House, Homeland Security, the U.S. Air Force, Guantanamo, and the Federal Bureau of Prisons--and in Canada, the Ontario Human Rights Commission and the Quebec NDP?
8 ) Do you take the view, as your colleague Salim Mansour does, that Canada should walk out of the UN?
9) Do you believe that veiled Muslim women at the polls might be engaging in criminal acts including suicide bombing, as a CCD press release suggests? (Are you aware that the current provisions of the Canada Elections Act permit such women to vote without unveiling, so long as they are not relying on photo ID as proof of identity?)
10) Do you support the bombing of Iran, like your colleague David Harris?
Don't mess with me on this one, Jay. Bouquets of Gray and I can keep you hopping for months trying to defend this character, and you'll inevitably go down in flames.
The Israeli "See what you made me do" and the official Canada Government reiteration of the same is merely the same old tiresome rant of the wife-beater, the bully and the psychopath. Israel has simply become tiresome.
Unfortunately , there are too many who assume Canada has an image of some humanitarian country who invented health care.. Unfortunately for the likes of this moron( Kent) and the Harper Govt who have no clue about diplomacy and realities of the world, we have an image that will not be saved for future generation... I have been mostly living out of Canada for the last 10 years and in that time the opinion of Canada has evolved into nothing more than a puppet of America. I didn’t care about the Chretien that much, but the old liberals understood diplomacy.
IN fact what occurred to me just after Obama was elected is that Canada will now be the last country fighting the war on terrorism. Sorry to pop the bubble of proud Canadians who think the world knows us for the UN, peace and health care - most of the world wasn’t even born then and most have grown up during the times Canada and has been shooting its mouth off about terrorist and ever other stupid thing - except what we were known for.
So Jay, I did not read much of what you wrote, but what I did read tells me that you have no clue - or just an agenda. Any person that can find justification with murdering innocent people - as America has killed over 200000 in Iraq, and Israel is doing as usual in the middle east, is for a surprise. It is morons like you and Kent who will bring terrorism to our doors. We never had a problem before, but rants like Kent’s, Harper’s and yours have made sure that any moron on the other side who is as twisted as you, will see Canada as a country who accepts and promotes this kind of murder that is being carried out by Israel and throughout the middle east by the USA.
It even saddens me when I hear my nieces and other young people who are bombarded with American TV say that we have to be worried about terrorist. Why? We never had any terrorist problems – America did and has, but we never did. Let’s not get carried away cuz we had a few crazies in the forest, shooting guns. Reality, Canada did not have terrorist problems, but I can guarantee you that Canada in the eyes of the world has became an enemy – not a welcome sign of relief. And morons like you who shoot off your mouth from your living room chair, or as Mr. Kent has for whatever moronic reason, only insure Canada’s future as foe, not friend to the world.
This is not a rant. I have travelled and lived all over Asia - in both Christian and Muslim countries and sorry to say we no longer have any credibility in of these countries. Yes they will like to live in a nice city like Vancouver, ski at whistler, but they do not have any respect for what we represent. That is reality Mr. Jay, and Mr. Kent if you are listening.
Peter Kent is laying the blame precisely where it belongs: a terrorist organization. All this equivocating and moral relativism is really nonsense. Hamas is responsible for every death, including the ones by Israeli forces. Every. Single. Death.
and Bid Laden is responsible for every single death the Americans have caused.
Yuoup - Every. Single. Death.
All 250000 dead ones..
Sometimes I am embarrassed to be Canadian, since we seem to be more American than many Americans I meet.
I am loving the new lefty trope of Hamas as battered wife. Talk about "othering".
Dawg, I took a look at your questions and remarks as to the CCD. From where I sit the CCD seems to be taking a reasonable, if a tad paranoid, view of Islamists in Canada and the world. You may not like the position but it is hardly extreme.
Looking at your questions and their implications, I disagree with some of it - the CJSCC obviously ought not to be fired for chairing a meeting. Find a few provocative - should MPs be marching in Hezbollah supporting parades or dining with Tamil Tiger supporters? Some rather silly - it really is impossible to "smear" Suzuki as he pretty much does the job himself. (And, by all means believe whatever you want as to DDT's ban killing vast numbers of sub-Saharan Africans (but the general run of the evidence tends to go the other way). As to Omar Alghabra, the attribution was wrong but the words were spoken and the context was largely as the CCD suggested. As to Islamist infiltration, one of Canada's most obnoxious Islamic bloggers works at the Pickering nuclear facility - so nothing on those lines would surprise me.
I can see very little reason for Canada to remain in the UN. Largely a waste of time and resources.
I think 9 is simply a bizarre question. A veil is hardly going to conceal a bomb belt and if people want to vote in sacks I will defend their right to do so. When, and if, a mu-mu clad granny blows herself up I will revisit the question.
As to Iran: I don't think we should bomb the entire country but the nuclear facilities might well be targeted. However, as a matter of prudence, I suspect we would all be much better off simply allowing the Iranians to depose the now largely discredited and broke government (and theocracy) themselves.
On the other hand, we might be doing the Iranian people a huge favour by taking out the nukes because, if the mullahs were ever dumb enough to use one, there would be a very large number of very dead Iranians.
Charles says: What is your theory behind Israel bombing of schools, ambulances and clinics?
Very simple, Charles, they don’t care. The US supports them unconditionally, by using economic clout, military threats, and by the use of the veto in the UN. Israel had 65 UN resolutions against it, between 1955 and 1992, which surely shows a lack of respect for International opinion.
In the Israeli Palestinian conflict there are only two ways I can see to stop the fighting, to make a peace acceptable to both sides, which does not seem likely, considering the Israeli penchant for expanding settlements and claiming more and more land, and the Palestinians claim on much of the land now settled by Israel.
The other way is to so reduce the Palestinian population in power and influence so much, that they will be marginalized, beaten, and accept any peace offered.
The West Bank does not have the violence of Gaza, but the settlements have continued to grow here., which could well be viewed by Palestinians as proof that Israel only understands violence when it comes to peace agreements and talks. Israel is also between a rock and a hard place, hard liners have growing power, while decades of rhetoric, which has demonised the Palestinian political process for years, has resulted in fear and distrust amongst the average Israeli, and would very likely lead to the defeat of any Israeli party that supports a equitable peace with Palestine.
You claim that the media is ready to pounce on the actions of Israel if they err, yet where is the condemnation from governments to the Israeli use of cluster munitions, targeting of schools, and civilian homes, bombing hospitals. While many governments have expressed concern for the civilians dieing, most have also been apologists for Israel’s actions at the same time. We must remember thatIsrael has been creating strategies for the last 8 months to counter any claims of civilian deaths, targeting of civilian infrastructure, or use of oppressive and illegal tactics.
Jay says: As to Iran: I don't think we should bomb the entire country but the nuclear facilities might well be targeted. "
You do realise that the IAEA has said there is no evidence of a nuclear weapon program, either secret or not, that all fissible material is accounted for, is sealed and under control of inspectors, that the enrichment process is monitired and inspected om a continual but random basis, and that the fuel enrichment perocess has not attained a purity where it can be used in an effective dirty bomb, let alone a nuclear warhead?
Iran's nuclear program was started back in the 1960's by the US, and they are signatories to the NPT, whivh allows them not only the right to have nuclear facilities for civilian energy, but also the right to ask other NPT countries for aid in setting up the nuclear facilities.
It also means that despite rhetoric to the contrary, Iran's nuclear program was not a secret to the IAEA and the Western governments. Bombing a nuclear facility is not an answer to stopping the spread of nukes, as countries will learn to place them underground, or spread them out over a large area, while technician, scientists and the program will still have retained all knowledge of the process. In addition by bombing a civilian nuclear facility, you are instilling a belief that the acquisition of a nuke is not only a preferred method of stopping aggression against it, but a necessary one. I would suggest removing the need for nukes would be a far better alternative, less expensive, and have a more positive aspect on the regions of the World, than simply bombing facilities with no idea of the purpose behind them.
back for a little r& r.. The one thing about Iran that you seem to assume is that they should be happy that the USA who gave IRAQ/Saddam gas to use on them. And that they should fall in line cuz the very same people who exploited them and then used chemical weapons on them are now not being listening to. Now you seem to be a pretty good writer, I am not, but what part are you missing? I have a very good friends in Iran who use to have a peaceful life there until the likes of you started to shoot your mouth off about their human rights, which has made the extreme left more radical - to the point that my friend's wife and daughter are often pressured to dress accordingly. This was not a problem before my fellow human rights Muslim haters started to shoot off at the mouth. So you see, you cannot dictate everyone’s life. YOU need to open your eyes to their reality. The west exploits the middle east. We gassed Iran, and then when they are fed up we say they are the axis of evil. What we need to do is look in our own back yard. Shit would you believe we have people in this wonderful country who hate Muslims, who hate people cuz of where they come from or because they are not stupid enough to believe in that story about god. YOU see I believe in free speech, but I do not believe in stupidity. Yes I live by a double standard, but I do not walk around killing people as a justification for my ignorance.
A little post I offered on Jay site. I do appreciate that he has allowed me to post random thoughts on his blog - mighty democratic of him.
Just to show there is more than meets the eye and logic only works when it is laid out in a complete manner.
I first quote jay to give reference to the data I have included below his post.
I quote Jay from his blog - http://jaycurrie.info-syn.com/na.../#comment-
69995
"
jay
January 7th, 2009 at 23:53
Reply | Quote | #9
Filcher, I checked out the link you supplied “A total of 223 rockets and 139 mortar shells were fired during the period of calm, most since November 4, 2008” apparently divided into 28 attacks or 7 per month. More than enough for Israel to have a right to respond.
It is very clear the Israelis are taking steps to minimize the deaths of innocent civilians; it is equally clear that Hamas is happy to shoot rockets and fire mortars near those civilians. In my view it is the Hamas habit of firing from or near civilians which places those civilians in danger. And, of course, had Hamas fired no rockets at all there would be no danger as the Israelis would not have had any reason to bomb or invade. "
================================
And to follow up his comments about justification for using force.
I quote Jay
"More than enough for Israel"
HAMAS
"to have a right to respond."
Anyway since we are counting I figure we should count the real numbers wrt. shelling civilians and the number of deaths due to the shelling. I am waiting for jay or whoever to provide the death states from the rockets fired from the Nazi concentration camps of GAZA. How many Israelis have died from all those rocket attacks exactly since you seem to be counting?
Just to help you count…
Data taken from the UN link listed below.
"
During 2006, Israeli Security Forces fired some 14,000 artillery shells into the Gaza Strip which were responsible for killing 59 persons, almost all of them civilians.
1) Deaths from the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
Of those killed, 4,228 have been Palestinians, 1,024 Israelis, and 63 foreign citizens. For every person killed, approximately seven were also injured. 3/
Of the overall number of children killed, 88% were Palestinian and 12 % were Israeli.The trend of child deaths mirrors the total rate: the number of Israeli children killed has declined markedly while that of Palestinian children remains high.
In contrast the total number of Palestinians, both civilians and combatants killed by the Israeli security forces or Israeli individuals, remains relatively high. In 2007, for example, for every one Israeli death there were 25 Palestinian deaths compared to 2002 when the ratio was 1:2.5.
In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to
In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month.
It is considerably more difficult to distinguish precisely who amongst those Palestinians killed were civilians. Since September 2000, of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces, whose status was known 7/, 59% were civilians and 41% were engaged in hostilities at the time of their death.
I just wanted to help you with your math …. Since we are so concerned with those bad guys who come over and make trouble in the corm fields. I am also waiting fore the numbers for ho many have died from all those rockets you have so clearly stated as unacceptable.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF...72!
OpenDocument
And just for the record from the source.
Israel admitted to firing mortar rounds at the school but claimed its actions were justified, because Hamas militants were using the school to fire rockets. But the UN said there were no militants at the school.
John Ging, the director of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency: “We very carefully vet anybody seeking shelter in our locations. We have experienced, long-serving staff who are managing those facilities. We are hugely sensitive to the integrity of our facilities at this time of conflict. And we have zero tolerance for any violations by any of the militants. And so far we’ve not had violations by militants of our facilities.”
OK enough. There is simple point and you either get it or you don’t.
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