No doubt when Gazans are finally reduced to cannibalism, the Usual Suspects will cluck their tongues and point to it as proof of the inherent barbarity of the Arab subspecies.
As long as Hamas' stated goals are the elimination of Israel, the only rational action for Israel is to ensure that Hamas remains sufficiently weak so it is unable to carry out its goals.*
As for Palestinians starving, I don't doubt it, but much of the blame must fall on Hamas. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, they left behind some state of the art greenhouses, but they were promptly destroyed by Hamas. And this is just one of many examples of Hamas (and other groups) doing the Palestinians a large disservice, and then blaming the Israelis.
As for the provocation of this raid, it would be foolish to assume that because it wasn't reported in the media that Hamas didn't provoke the Israelis. The vast majority of attacks against Israel are simply not reported. Attacks are almost a daily occurrence in some boarder towns.
* Obviously this doesn't excuse everything Israel does.
Jonathon Cooke gets it right again:
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/
...cook171108.html
Gaza has a border with Egypt - it is impossible for Israel to blockade Gaza.
When Israel pulled out of Gaza, they left behind some state of the art greenhouses, but they were promptly destroyed by Hamas.
Well, this doesn't rank up there with the Kuwait/incubator babies propaganda but what the hey, you justify crimes against humanity with the propaganda you have, not the propaganda you wish you had.
Israel shuts off water, dries Gaza greenhouses
After months of intense negotiations recently culminating in a deal allowing for the transfer of Gaza's high-tech Jewish greenhouses to the Palestinians, several former Jewish residents who briefly returned to their farms told WND they were shocked to find most of their produce has died because Israel turned off the water in the area.
Doesn't firing rockets at defenceless citizens -- who were not involved in previous events -- amount to collective punishment? Cherry-picking violent actions by either side is unproductive. What is the realistic basis for a win-win-or-no deal resolution to this crisis? You know, the kind of pragmatism which Dawg disdains when practised by other than the NDP?
beluga2: The Usual Suspects can hardly cluck about Palestinian cannibalism since, as Dawg's stepson recently reported, they already eat their babies. In a similar vein, it always puzzles me when the Usual Suspects are accused of being unconcerned about global warming. They clearly have a vested interest in preventing it since we all know that their policy is to exile senior citizens to icebergs.
I agree with you Dawg - not only is this ignored in the MSM, it is also ignored by the CJC and the BB.
Worse off is that Iggy who spoke his mind is now being rounding criticized for daring to express an opinion on Israel.
Odd though that "Lying Jackel" who works as a lawyer (honorary or otherwise) for the CJC has joined the Iggy camp.
I can't begin to guess why Warren is supporting Iggy. Liberal politics are a little hard to comprehend sometimes. A bit like trying to nail jelly to the wall.
Perhaps Liberal politics is hard to understand, but not Liberal politicians. Its obvious Special K thinks he's found a fight he can win. He doesn't usually fight any other kind.
Interesting link to WorldNetDaily, though...
I've visited this blog a few times, and had enjoyed Dawg's exposure of the "Speachy hysteria," but I'm quite disappointed in this kind of antisemitic propaganda appearing here, replete with a cartoon by the notorious Latuffe who received an award by the Iranian government for a Holocaust denial cartoon.
Why is it that hatred of the continued existence of Israel is considered "progressive?"
More on Latuff:
http://www.adl.org/
main_Arab_Wor...oon_contest.htm
https://israel.indymedia.org/news.../5543/
index.php
Emile,
You don't know this, but you've done me a favour. I hope regulars Sue, Mordechai and Geo have taken note.
There is nothing remotely "anti-Semitic" about this post, which addresses the suffering of civilians due to actions described in the Fourth Geneva Convention as a war crime. Israel is not exempted, last I heard, from international law. The cartoon is in no way anti-Semitic either: it graphically illustrates what the denial of food to civilians means.
I am neither a Holocaust-denier nor opposed to the continued existence of the state of Israel. But this is the sort of charge that criticism of Israel earns you these days.
Why doesn't anyone call Zionism what it is: National Socialism.
A "German State for German People"
A "Jewish State for Jewish People"
The "Master Race" needs "Living Space"
The "Chosen People" need "Settlements"
The underdog fights for its "Place in the Sun", using very real historical oppression as justification.
The ideology is equated with the people. Opposition to the ideology is opposition to the people.
Collective Punishment
"Purity of Arms"
It should be said that most Zionists these days are right wing Christians who don't seem to understand that their religion rests on a foundation of hatred of Jews.
David:
There are many Zionisms, and not all of them are socialist.
Israel is an oppressive settler nation. But the Third Reich it is not.
I'll just repeat what i said earlier. It is impossible for israel to blockade gaza - since Gaza has a border with Egypt. Let them bring in all the supplies they need from Egypt.
You fire rockets into gaza - you get what you deserve.
It's possible that Dawg really believed what he/she just posted.
But here it is.
1) Holding the state Israel to a different "ethical" standard than that required of other nations is racist.
2) Incitement of hatred against the existence of Israel is antisemitic because it does not permit Jews to be entitled to a collective cultural, religious or national sovereignty.
3) The left wing antisemitism that we see so much of these days is sophisticated enough to play as 'passive aggressive,' which is more effective at gaining sympathy from the uninformed and especially from those who presumably care about human rights.
4) The Middle east situation between the Jewish, Israel and the rest of the Arab world and Iran is very complicated. The hate Israel "interests" do their best to present simplified propaganda in order to win points for their cause.
This is not to say that everything Israel does is pristine and holy. I'm talking about crass propaganda that otherwise intelligent people like Dawg get sucked into and then repeat.
The was a truce of sorts for a number of months between Gaza and Israel, despite ongoing occasional UNPROVOKED MISSILE AND MORTAR ATTACKS from Gaza.
Technically, Hamas has always been at war with Israel. Especially since israel WITHDREW from occupation of Gaza. Hamas has never wavered from its charter which effectively calls for the eradication of Israel and the extermination of all Jews elsewhere in the world.
Because of this position, Israel hasn't been able to begin to normalize relations with Gaza. This is further complicated by the fact that Israel has allowed itself to be obligated to supply or channel international humanitarian assistance to Gaza AND make available emergency medical treatment to thousands of Gazans. In 2008, over 14,000 Gazans entered Israel for medical treatment. They weren't slaughtered. Presumably all returned safe and sound.
Since 2006, there have been less than 1,000 Gazans killed in hostilities with israel. Most of them were armed militants.
Why are these numbers so far apart???
Israel and the Palestinans of the West Bank are hedging towards normalizing relations. It's a very difficult and complicated situation there too. But somewhat better than with Gaza.
This is further complicated by the problems among the Palestinians themselves. Hamas and Fatah conflict with each other. Also, neither will accept the other to speak for the Palestinan people as a whole.So negotiations for statehood are stuck in limbo.
Have you no opinion on the Egyption border with Gaza, Mr. Dawg? If you are not anti-semitic, why not mention the fact that Israel cannot blockade Gaza all on its own?
At some point the people in Gaza will say, "Enough!" and they will hunt down the idiots firing the rockets and hang them from lamp posts.
At some point pro-Palestinian folks will actually notice the borer with Egypt and realize there is no such thing as a "blocade" with a back door. Are the Egyptians engaged in collective punishment?
I mean seriously Dawg, how can you pretend that the Israelis have sole control of the food and water flowing into Gaza. And, given the lively trade through the tunnels, how can you pretend that Gaza is on the brink of starvation.
GAZA IS NOT ON THE BRINK OF STARVATION!
Gaza produces its own basic food supplies of grains, lentils, meat,fish fruits and dairy products.
They import sugar, salt,tobacco and many other processed things, but they are not starving! That is a propaganda lie!
Another propaganda stunt was the "power blackout" a few days ago, when children were sent into the streets to hold lit candles for the international media. They have lots of fuel. Hamas has reserves, and controls its distribution and brings fuel in underground through extensive tunnels.
Here's a photo of one of the "Free Gaza" activists shopping for her daily groceries in October 2008, during her visit to the Gaza "concentration camp."
http://www.daylife.com/photo/025...hP/
Lauren_Booth
If the people of gaza were "starving," bags of grains and beans wouldn't be stacked up outside a well-stocked grocery store like that.
HATE HATE HATE. LIES LIES LIES.
I can't determine if people are serious about the "there's no blockade because there's a border with Egypt" claim, but Israel and Egypt have a peace agreement, and the latter doesn't want any trouble.
Emile thinks that photos from October have bearing on what is happening now in the middle of November. I can't help him/her there. But while you folks speculate, and pretend that Gaza is some kind of "paradise ghetto," this is what's going on at the moment.
When Emile says Holding the state Israel to a different "ethical" standard than that required of other nations is racist, he/she doesn't appear to realize that this is just what s/he is doing. Israel inevitably gets a pass for its war crimes where any other nation would be roundly condemned.
Dawgy, Dawgy, Dawgy.
antizionism = antisemitism. You bought into it. Now enjoy it.
"Israel inevitably gets a pass for its war crimes where any other nation would be roundly condemned."
Forget the UN. There are thousands of people dying of starvation and violence EVERY DAY in Darfur. How come we don't hear about that from the UN?
1) It's not a war crime to close your border against a neighboring population that is attacking you.
2) It's not a war crime to shoot back or take reasonable defensive measures to protect the population of one's country.
3) IT IS A WAR CRIME to shoot random missiles and mortars against a civilian population.
Ah, the Egyptians "don't want any trouble". So this is an Israeli-Egyptian "blockade".
Glad we got that cleared up.
Starving Gazans.
You mean like these children here?
Photo from FREE GAZA propaganda online collection. Posted October 31st.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/292...N02/3019419122/
Here's some news for you. Starving children don't look like this.
or this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/292...57608809747516/
They look more like this:
http://politics.wikia.com/
index....n_in_Darfur.jpg
or this:
http://www.fettan.com/images/
Eth...hildren_BBC.jpg
Jay:
This article may be helpful:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/...a-border-
breach
I think I was initially wrong about Egypt and its supposed motivation. Two points: 1) Israel is legally responsible for Gaza, and 2) most of what gets into Gaza in the way of basic supplies (food and medicine) comes from Israel.
When Israel embargoes Gaza, I'm not certain what Egypt is expected to do.
David: if Israel=Nazi Germany, can you give us a Nazi Germany example of the Arab Members of the Knesset? Please?
Or how about a Nazi version of the Israeli Labor Party? Or of any of the opposition groups that are not only NOT sent to concentration camps, but are very active and vociferous?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Seriously, how do people this thick actually learn the ability to type?
Dawg:
from the article you provided:
"-The border breach at Rafah began on January 23, after Hamas helped Palestinians break through sections of the wall and fence separating Gaza and Egypt, to the west of the official Rafah crossing, which remains closed."
- Egyptian border forces in riot gear have tried to maintain order on the Egyptian side.
- Egypt shares some of the blame for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, having largely kept its border with Rafah closed during the Israeli blockade
It would appear that "what Egypt can do" would be to, you know, NOT have a wall and fence separating Gaza and Egypt.
Unless its only walls built by Israelis that get your ire?
James:
Quite possibly Egypt does share in the blame, but my later point stands: most of what keeps Gaza alive comes from Israel, which has international legal responsibility for ensuring that.
So, sure: take down the wall on the Egyptian side. But that isn't going to create the supplies that need to flow through the breach.
Dawg, there is nothing to stop Egypt from opening its border. It was closed in response to the election of Hamas. The thing is they don't like Hamas any more than the Israelis do. The last thing they want are these people in their country.
As to legal responsibility: the Israelis withdrew. Gaza was Egyptian territory pre-1967 war. It was occupied by Israel (which gives rise to legal responsibility) now it is no longer occupied. Why Egypt has not asserted its former sovereignty is likely to do with its reasonable reluctance to take on a very troublesome bunch of Palestinians. But why this should be Israel's sole problem is more than a little opaque.
However, it is well past time to stop blaming Israel for using economic sanctions to respond to terrorists firing missiles at civilians. Blockades don't have backdoors.
So really, it's everybody's fault but Israel's that the current civilian population of Gaza is being starved of humanitarian assistance, in contravention of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Just amazing, isn't it, that Israel once again has run outside in a shower and avoided the raindrops? I'm amazed that whole country doesn't have a giant halo above it.
Meanwhile, this is life as a Gazan lives it.
Plenty of blame to go around, Dawg. Starting with the goofs firing the missles.
Speaking of halos....here's another one for your hero Latuff.
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2...04/02/
979.shtml
The image on this page depicts a row of Egged buses morphed into hand grenades on a blood red background.
This is no doubt to encourage and justify the suicide bombing of Israel civilian city buses to terrorize the people of Israel. It illustrates an article justifying such indiscriminate guerrilla warfare. Killing women, children, old people, poor people,sick people, Arabs, Jews, Christians... whoever used a bus. The end justifies the means.
Right Dawgie?
You appear to be veering over into troll territory, Emile. Kindly mind your manners.
Jay, Emile, et al,
This isn't about starving Gazans; it's about Israel. It's there and it shouldn't be. As I pointed out in one of Dr. Dawg's previous Israel=Uniquely Evil threads (can anyone recall the last time he criticized ANY OTHER NON-NORTH AMERICAN country on human rights violations?)...
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...3220476/
#199299
...the good doctor has a calendar in his computer which is programmed to post about Israel's racism/apartheid/inhumanity (and the hypocrisy of its defenders) every 2.684 weeks, rain or shine.
Make no mistake, this is NOT antisemitism; it's something different and these days - to my great dismay - seems to infect mostly leftwingers, a group to which I have belonged all my adult life. I call it IDS (Israel Derangement Syndrome).
In case you have difficulty identifying a person afflicted with IDS, here are some symptoms that I have found useful:
* The IDS-er is prone to quoting Norman Finkelstein/Ilan Pappe/Gilad Atzmon (or others of that ilk) as an authority on Israel or Zionism, and then, for bonus points, adds that he is Jewish and/or the son of Holocaust victims/survivors.
* The IDS-er loves to quote Jews on Israel. If the quote is anti-Israel/Zionism, it just goes to prove that being anti-Israel/Zionsim CANNOT BE ANTISEMITIC. If the quote is anti-Palestinian/Arab, it demonstrates how Zionism is racist.
http://www.z-word.com/on-zionism...te-
zionism.html
* He flatly asserts that Jews cannot be antisemitic.
* He sometimes argues that Arabs cannot be antisemitic because they are "semitic" themselves (notwithstanding all the evidence in the world that semitic, as a meaningful term, can only refer to language not race and that the term "antisemitic" was coined specifically for Jews in 19th century Germany).
* And, especially, he announces that the term antisemitism "has now been successfully drained of all meaning" because (pace the "Livingstone formulation") these days it is pretty much only used to "silence criticism of Israel".
http://www.z-word.com/on-zionism...hip.html?
page=2
Continued...
... Continued
I like reading this blog. On most things, Dr. Dawg is an excellent critic of hypocrisy and dogmatism in others. But he is obtuse when it hits closer to home. As I said in an earlier thread, he keeps prefacing every criticism of Israel as if it were a courageous act. It's not. He loves playing the victim and pointing out how EVERYONE is attacking him, when, in fact, anti-Zionism is by far the dominant position in certain milieux (e.g. academia) and is constantly being trumpeted in a wide variety of media. Dawg's stance is tiresome and dishonest at best. It's like rich white men claiming discrimination. It's laughable.
But the IDS-er is nothing if not persistent. So check back here in 2.684 weeks. Rain or shine.
And I take it that in 2.684 weeks we shall have yet another repost of this ridiculously dishonest ad hominem comment?
Note that in this very thread I was called an anti-Semite, by one Emile. Kind of makes crap out of your disingenuous "Livingston Formulation," doesn't it?
Firstly, I am not a 'crowd' and I take great offence at your attempt to smear me by suggesting I have ever promoted or participated in counselling a sexual assault against any political opponent.
I defy you to provide one post in which I promoted any form of sexual assault against any person or beast either at Dust my Broom, the Last Amazon or any other blog. And since you deliberately refused to acknowledge a link the post I will do so.
http://dustmybroom.com/content/v...nt/view/6009/1/
Of course, you too have blog friends who have counselled 'clubbling like a baby seal' anyone who disagrees with his political opinion.
My English name, Kateland Youngsam, is displayed under the title posting at Dust my Broom. If my English name is not enough for you I am also known as Jhainna in Romany and Shoshanna in Hebrew but all of these are my ‘real’ names, and unlike you, I do not seek refuge behind some imaginary made up moniker on the internet.
Take a good look at those Hamas approved and sanctioned those pictures for the Middle East Arab press which are posted at the DMB. Those pictures are not of events from October but this November. The only people going hungry tonight in the Gaza Strip are not going hungry because of any “Israeli” embargo but because they failed to fall in line with Hamas’ agenda -an agenda, in which you seem to not to possess the slightest qualm in publicly advancing. I believe another leftie coined a useful term for people like you. Lenin, nu?
And you who invoke the “Geneva Convention” so readily against the Israelis grow suddenly mute and deaf when Hamas violates articles of the ‘Geneva Convention’. Where is your bark for Gilad Shalit’s human rights? Hath Shalit not have eyes? Hath not Shalit hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same disease, healed by the same winter and summer, as you? If you prick him, does he not bleed? If you tickle him, does he not laugh? If you prick him, does he not bleed?
You posted at a site that has promoted sexual violence against women. That was your choice--not one I would have made.
Spare me the truly antiquated nonsense about my nom de plume, please. My real name takes about 10 seconds of Googling to detect--for those not already in a very wide loop. Not even Kathy Shaidle plays that game anymore.
Gilad Shalit is/was a soldier, captured after the killing of two brothers in Gaza by Israeli commandos. He was not a civilian denied food by an illegal embargo designed as collective punishment.
[PS: You should be aware that the speech you were paraphrasing is actually an anti-Semitic one, placed in the mouth of Shylock for an anti-Semitic audience, although in fairness not everyone has picked up on that. ]
And the two brothers in Gaza Dawg...what, pray, would have brought them to the notice of Israeli commandos?
Are you asking me to speculate?
The point is that a cross-border raid into Gaza gets explained away, while a cross-border raid in retaliation triggers a war that kills hundreds, destroys infrastructure that will take twenty years to rebuild, and renders a third of the population of Lebanon homeless.
But hey, that's OK. It was just Israel, a state that can do no wrong, "fighting" (as Terry Glavin put it)"for its life."
OK Dawg, let's try not to mix apples with oranges: Hamas in Gaza for no apparent reason grabs an Israeli soldier - apparently the two brothers you referred to earlier were playing tidley winks in an aggressive manner or some such. Meanwhile, in another part of the forest, Hezbollah grabs two other Israeli soldiers.
Israel, oddly enough, retaliates in each instance. I rather doubt that Hezbollah or Hamas were surprised. After all, Hezbollah had been digging into the infrastructure for about a decade in anticipation of precisely this outcome.
Bottom line, if you fire rockets into a nation and kidnap its soldiers you are likely to have that nation retaliate. Sometimes militarily, sometimes economically.
But I take it you concede that there is no such thing as the purely Israeli blockade you complain of in your post. Egypt is a party to any blockade and, if we are to wither on about such things is equally culpable. Egypt does, however, lack the excuse of rockets falling on its civilian population. Apparently it blockades Gaza from pure spite.
So, sure: take down the wall on the Egyptian side. But that isn't going to create the supplies that need to flow through the breach.
Well, Gaza seems to have enough guns and uniforms for the numerous militia and "government workers". All of whom look suspiciously well fed.
But don't worry: St. Obama will have this mess fixed by February.
Has the Gaza border crossings with Israel been closed or not?
Can anyone tell me what they think would happen to Egyptian-Israeli relations if the Egyptians opened their border?
Further can someone explain to me this: if the Egyptian border was already closed and the Gaza-Israel one was open and is now closed, isn't the proximate cause of whatever problems there are in terms of supplies that flow over that border the closing of it?
Can someone please show me where Dawg said "starving"?
Can someone show me where Dawg explicitly expressed support for firing rockets into civilian populated areas?
I wonder how long it will take for someone to call me anti-Semitic for asking these questions...
So really, it's everybody's fault but Israel's that the current civilian population of Gaza is being starved
That was easy...
And, no, I'm not going to parse the difference between "starving" and "being starved".
"Can someone show me where Dawg explicitly expressed support for firing rockets into civilian populated areas? "
Dawg never said such that I am aware of. However Dawg has used a cartoon from Carlos Latuff to illustrate the article that these comments are appended to.
Carlos Latuff is not merely an extreme far-left antisemite. Latuff is unabashedly pro-terror and a happy propagandist for the pro-genocidal and fascist fanatically religious Iranian regime....
Iran, for those who didn't know, is that "enlightened" place where they hang homosexuals from building cranes above public squares. It's president has called for the eradication of Israel. And wasn't joking either.
I have seen Dawg argue brilliantly and fearlessly against racism, prejudice and hypocrisy elsewhere in cyberspace. But sadly, I think Dawg is blind in one eye when it comes to the topic of the continued existence of Israel.
Dawg has called me a troll for saying this. But he /she is at least to be commended for allowing such posts (however disagreeable they are) to stand.
I'm done here.
"Can anyone tell me what they think would happen to Egyptian-Israeli relations if the Egyptians opened their border?"
Not much. The Egyptians closed it to express their dismay with the election of Hamas. they could open it tomorrow. Israel would whine a bit but, I suspect, be rather relieved as it would mean that the people living on Egyptian soil in Gaza were no longer their problem. Except for the rockets of course.
"Further can someone explain to me this: if the Egyptian border was already closed and the Gaza-Israel one was open and is now closed, isn't the proximate cause of whatever problems there are in terms of supplies that flow over that border the closing of it?"
Almost right. The Israelis were annoyed with the Palis who kept shooting rockets at Israeli civilian areas. They closed their border - to a degree as it appear that humanitarian aid is now flowing again - and the Egyptians kept theirs closed. It is entirely open to the Egyptians, in light of the alleged human suffering in Gaza, to open their border to the aid an anxious world is, no doubt, just waiting to shower on the Gazans. Israel's nasty collective punishment will be at an end.
So why aren't the Egyptians responding to the pleas of their Palestinian brethren crushed under the boot heel of the Israelis. Could it be that the Egyptians are not quite as gullible as pro-Palestinian Western lefties? Could it be that their very good intelligence apparatus is telling them that this is yet another version of the Hamas smoke and mirrors. Could it be that they know just how prone the Palestinians are to telling whoppers for political advantage?
Neither the Egyptians nor the Israelis are taken in for a second by the political Kabuki performed by the Palestinians for their Guardian reading supporters.
Speaking of collective punishment, here's a graphic example much closer to home: "The insane rage of the same-sex marriage mob".
(http://jewishworldreview.com/michelle/
malkin.php3)
Money quote: Corporate honchos, church leaders and small donors alike are in the same-sex marriage mob's crosshairs, all unfairly demonized as hate-filled bigots by bona fide hate-filled bigots who have abandoned decency in pursuit of "equal rights."
CN:
And this is "collective punishment" under the Fourth Geneva Convention--how, exactly?
Good grief, that Malkin is a hypocrite. Since when did boycotts suddenly become mob rule? Not when the Baptists were boycotting Disney. Since when did demonstrations become mob rule? The Right does this sort of stuff every day, without a peep from that vicious little twit.
And the excesses cherrypicked here could easily be matched with (for example) some of the anti-Obama stuff during and even after the presidential campaign.
Emile:
If I have to find character references for the artist/photographer every time I pluck an image off the internet, time will force me to reduce the number of my posts. The question you won't come to grips with is: was the cartoon "anti-Semitic?" Of course it was nothing of the kind.
James:
I should have said "threatened with starvation" as I did in the title. Mea culpa.
I also should add that the Palestinians have had years (in fact, many years) to build infrastructure with Egypt, so that the Israeli border crossing is not needed. They've had the money...but I guess that all goes for rocket factories, tunnel building, and suicide bomb vests.
Or, this report from the Jerusalem Post..
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Sat...icle%
2FShowFull
Palestinian Authority officials in Ramallah accused Hamas on Tuesday of staging the latest blackouts in the Gaza Strip in a bid to win sympathy and incite the Palestinian public against Israel and the PA.
The officials said that contrary to Hamas's claim, there is no shortage of basic goods, medicine and fuel in the Gaza Strip, largely thanks to the many underground tunnels along the border with Egypt.
This is not the first time that Palestinians have accused Hamas of staging Gaza blackouts under the pretext that Israel had cut off fuel supplies to the district's power grid.
Earlier this year, Palestinian journalists in Gaza City told The Jerusalem Post that scenes of Palestinian children and women holding lit candles in the dark had been staged by Hamas and some Arab satellite TV stations.
"There's no shortage of fuel in the Gaza Strip and the Electricity Company is continuing to function normally," said a PA official. "Our people in the Gaza Strip have told us that the blackouts are all staged as part of the Hamas propaganda."
Another PA official noted that Hamas's lies reached their peak last January when its legislators held a meeting in a darkened hall of the Palestinian Legislative Council - while light could be seen coming in through the curtained windows.
Dawg wrote:
"If I have to find character references for the artist/photographer every time I pluck an image off the internet, time will force me to reduce the number of my posts. The question you won't come to grips with is: was the cartoon "anti-Semitic?" Of course it was nothing of the kind."
Sorry Dawg. The Latuff cartoon you used depicted/symbolized starving babies victimized by the heartless Joos again. That makes it antisemitic.
It was a cynical propaganda distortion. In order to delegitimize the existence of Israel, and their right to defend themselves against terrorist attack. The children of Gaza are not starving. The "starvation" card is a cynical propaganda ploy by the Hamas.
No I won't say Palestinians Arabs.
You used it. You wear it.
I hope Geo, with his "Livingston Formulation," is paying attention here. Depicting an Israeli soldier in an unflattering light is now equated with "anti-Semitism." A soldier of a nation-state now is held to stand in for "the Jews."
Hate to say this, Geo, Mordechai, Sue--but I told you so.
Depicting a soldier with a star of David on his helmet to make sure everyone can see that they are unmistakeably Jewish.
See "Der Sturmer."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der...er_St%C3%
BCrmer
Oh, nonsense. The Israeli soldier is distinguished by the dominant symbol on the Israeli flag. It's an indication of nation, not ethnos. If his face had been caricatured, you might have had a point, but it isn't, and you don't.
Jeez, Dawg, this is getting to be like that blasphemy skit on Monty Python...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v...h?
v=vOdARZ3bs0k
One thing is clear: Latuff is a very nasty piece of work. I'm sure his second-place trophy in Iran's Holocaust cartoon contest sits prominently on his mantelpiece.
Dawg, you are fond of links when making your arguments, in particular those that purport to "connect the dots". Well, the dots are pretty clear with Latuff. I don't believe you have an antisemitic bone in your body, Dawg, but the heading of your post and the use of Latuff to illustrate it, was a big mistake.
"..The Israeli soldier is distinguished by the dominant symbol on the Israeli flag. It's an indication of nation, not ethnos..."
To you, Dawg, perhaps. But not to the folks behind this Starvation blood libel, or the artist who produced the cartoon.
The reason they issue such black propaganda is to delegitimize and eventually eradicate a majority Jewish state in the Middle east.
You bought into it, is all.
You're by no means alone. The stuff was meant to suck in well-meaning, erudite leftists.
I just think it's kind of a shame in your case, because I think you are quite intelligent and otherwise sincere. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything.
And while we're on the subject, I agree with Eamonn McDonagh's objection to Christopher Hitchens here:
http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/h...n-antisemitism/
I think the points made are reasonable too.
Incredible that Laffat is still doing the same worthless, stupid cartoonies he was years ago. He called himself an artist at that time.
That's Latuff. I have no doubt that he's being sponsored by terror interests to continue grinding out his stuff. It is all over Indymedia and Norm Finkelstein has a section of his site dedicated to Latuff's crap.
He is a unique, highly evocative and talented artist. If he chose to dedicate himself commercially, I have no doubt that he would be greatly successful.
Years ago, a cartoon series that he ran on Indymedia in Europe was the subject of an unsuccessful French human rights complaint.
It would be interesting to know how 'accidental' the choice of a Latuff cartoon was on this blog. Dr. Dawg has defended the above article rather stoutly, I would say.
Oh and for anyone who is mildly interested...yes I do have a legal background in Canadian Human Rights legislation, and the history of its application.
Emile,
You lost me there. Latuff is not being "sponsored" by "terror interests" (whatever that means). There's no conspiracy; he's his own man. Holocaust deniers do not need sponsorship. (Though I'm sure the acclaim from like-minded sympathizers and the purchase of his cartoons is not unwelcome.)
As for Dawg, he may be obtuse when it comes to Israel, but he's no antisemite or Holocaust denier. "If I have to find character references for the artist/photographer every time I pluck an image off the internet..." may be a bit weak as an excuse, but I hardly think that Dawg shares Latuff's baser obsessions. Your insinuations (if that's what they are, Emile) are out of line.
OK, everybody who thinks that baby in the cartoon is going to make it over the arm of that friendly looking soldier to enjoy his bottle of milk, please put up their hand. It's 1000-word meaning is crystal-clear -- Star of David and all. BTW, has anybody here ever come across the expression "Jewish-state"? One day it seems to be a sneering epithet; the next it doesn't exist.
Some would consider this cartoon to be far worse than the Danish Mohammed cartoons which supporters of CHRA Section 13(1) are keen to prevent us from seeing and discussing. You know, because we're not adult enough to have the kind of conversation happening here.
Geo,
I'll be the first to admit that I'm new here.
If I've misjudged or misread Dr. Dawg's intentions, then I sincerely apologize. Seems to me that you know him better than I, and if you think that this was an anomaly then I'll leave at that.
I'm become a little sensitive and maybe annoyed at what I would call incitement of hatred in the name of human rights...but isn't most hatred done that way?
There's been a wave of incitement against the existence of Israel sweeping University campuses in eastern Canada. And use this kind of material, and a similar piss and moan.
Change now,
the Latuff cartoon, skewed as it is does not in my opinion even begin to approach the level of invective that would qualify for a Section 13 charge.
If you went and read some Section 13 decisions which are available at the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal website, and see what kind of expression was "caught" by section 13, you might see.
Geo,
Thanks for the link to Eamonn McDonagh.
I'm still struggling with that one. Personally I am not opposed to the existence of Israel, because it's either meaningless or genocidal to take such a position. (It may, simply through demographics, become something other than a "Jewish state" in the future--I don't know.)
But--to establish a limit case--there are ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel who are anti-Zionist and opposed, therefore, to the existence of the state of Israel. They have religious arguments, of which I am sure you are aware. It seems a stretch to call such people "anti-Semitic."
On to the cartoonist. I had a look at his winning entry in the Iranian contest. He is comparing the misery of Palestinians to that of Jews in a death camp. That is a common trope.
I don't think such comparisons are remotely helpful, and objectively they don't measure up. So I am left asking myself, Who is the intended audience?
Latuff's cartoon (the contest one) is obviously not denying the Holocaust. It's going the other way--equating it to the situation of Palestinians in their occupied lands.
Obviously I don't agree that the two situations are commensurate. My suspicion has always been, when such comparisons are drawn, that there is a kind of appeal here to Jews (not simply Israeli citizens) to recall their own experiences when they deal with the Palestinians. There is also a sense of betrayal, akin, I believe, to that felt by some Prop 8 opponents when it turned out (allegedly, anyway) that a majority of Blacks had voted in favour.
The notion is that people who have suffered are somehow enobled, or should be, and that we have a right to expect, therefore, that their own behaviour will be better than that of others who have not been through the fire. More empathetic, more tolerant, more understanding. There might be a tendency, if you will, to hold people who have been victims themselves to a higher standard.
Unfortunately, that's not the case in the real world. If anything, suffering brutalizes or numbs a lot of people. When it comes down to a felt question of survival, they will think of themselves first, and tend to save their empathy for their own group.
So the rhetorical comparison will not likely awake any consciences, or prod anyone to have better feelings or be more compassionate. To some (like myself), it's over the top; to others it's yet another display of anti-Semitism. It's a failed tactic, then, if tactic it is.
On the cartoon I used in this post, however, I see no trace of this sort of thing. It simply depicts an Israeli soldier preventing an infant from obtaining food, the whole piece metonymically depicting the threatened situation in Gaza. The Star of David, i.e., the flag of Israel, simply identifies him as Israeli. Pretty common-or-garden stuff.
Emile: Sorry if I was unclear. Neither the Latuff nor Danish Mohammed cartoons warrant a Section 13 response. Just pointing out that, while Levant's publication of the latter spawned a complaint that took almost a year to throw out, many would consider the Latuff cartoon much more offensive.
Perhaps, one of Dawg's disciples could launch a human rights complaint against him just to demonstrate how painless they are. To make the experiment full-bodied, though, they would need to convince several others -- perhaps the CJC, RCC, RCMP and/or Kinsella -- to simultaneously pile on with defamation suits.
I should have said "threatened with starvation" as I did in the title. Mea culpa.
Just keeping you on your toes, Dawg. Its the copy editor in me I guess...
http://www.adl.org/
main_Arab_Wor...oon_contest.htm
Yes, Holocaust "denial" is probably the wrong term. But, I'm sorry, "I don't think such comparisons are remotely helpful" just doesn't begin to measure to how loathsome this trope is.
It is one thing to blast the Israeli government (half the Israeli population indulges in the practise regularly), or even Israel as a state. Invoking notorious dictators (Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, even Genghis Khan) in support of such criticism may be distasteful, but it, too, is accepted discourse. But this is never the case where Israel is concerned, is it? Have we ever seen say (to limit ourselves to reecent prime ministers) Barak, Sharon or Olmert compared to any of the above? No, it's always Hitler. For the star of David, it's always the swastika. For Israel it's always Auschwitz. Can we guess why? One hardly needs to be Jewish to be deeply offended by the juxtaposition of the symbols of the Holocaust and the Jewish people. This is not acceptable political comment. It is sadistic calumny. It's like something out of W.A.R. (White Aryan Resistance; I won't link to their site), accusing blacks and their enablers of enslaving the white race. No, the cartoons of Iran's Holocaust contest are not garden variety anti-Zionism; they are something far more vile. But some antennae are so hard-wired to anti-Zionism that antisemitism no longer registers.
So Dawg, bottom line: inaccurate but not anti-Semitic. With a cartoon by a noted anti-Semite. Nice.
Time will tell if the cartoon was "inaccurate" or not. Of course it wasn't anti-Semitic. And the cartoonist may or may not be, based on one or more of the numerous definitions of the word flying about this place like confetti at the moment.
PS: Guess I shouldn't have quoted T.S. Eliot on an earlier post, eh? Amazed some of you folks didn't jump all over that one.
Geo:
I don't understand the analogy with WAR. After all, they don't think Hitler was so bad. Ditto for some of the more brutish Islamists around.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that you are correct in your main assertion--it's all Hitler all the time.
Serious question: why is that? Could there be some merit in my earlier analysis?
Just a few points:
Comparing the Israeli state to the Third Reich obviously doesn't put the former in a good light.
It is overstated, and meant to wound.
But is that all? If people use such analogies simply because they hate Jews, why would they compare the latter to Hitler, who also hated Jews?
Moreover, as to the putative audience for that sort of thing, who is it? Anti-Semites, who love Hitler?
There is a logical leap here that needs looking at, I think.
Logic? Don't bother looking for it among antisemites. Racists (and/or conspiracy mongers) are never strong on logic. I remember a poll of some middle eastern countries where the large segments of the population denied that Islamists were to blame for 9/11 (in which case cherchez les Juifs) AND cheered the results. Similarly, antisemites will regularly deny (or deny the enormity of) the Holocaust AND applaud Hitler's efforts. It never happened, but if it did, well so much the better.
Of course there are those like Ahmadinejad who claim to be merely agnostic with regard to the Holocaust. "(I think) it is a myth... If the Holocaust is a reality, why don't we let more research be done on it?"
I'm back.
OK, Dr. Dawg wrote:
"..Comparing the Israeli state to the Third Reich ... is overstated, and meant to wound.... why would they compare the latter to Hitler...
... (who is the) putative audience for that sort of thing ..."
Hate propaganda of this sort is very political. But all hate propaganda boils down to 2 principle factors: dehumanization and demonization. Also there is often a grain of truth included around which are wrapped layers of distortion. And it is a classic technique to use inversion of metaphors to achieve the desired effect.
Comparing Jews/Israelis to Nazis is, for educated people, crude, violent, vicious distortion and a mockery of the dead and those who suffered under the Nazi regime. There is no reasonable comparison to the genocidal actions that were visited upon Jews and others by the Nazis, and on such an unprecedented industrial and bureaucratic scale.
By throwing out this inverted metaphor enough times, the purveyors are marketing Jews/Israelis as nazis. If enough people see a consistent message enough times, then the big lie is bound to produce certain results.
There are further inversive tricks that go along with this...if those afflicted by such or similar invective begin to take decisive action in response, the other half of this "passive aggressive" war is to cry victim of an organized attack on freedom of speech.
The mechanics of these tricks were well eviscerated by Dr. Gary Prideaux in the Zundel hearings.
A current example of this passive aggressive onslaught here in Canada are the folks afiliated with the "Coalition Against Israel Apartheid," and its variants.
They're very serious operators.
And they aren't receptive to reason. It's something we should all be concerned about.
http://www.jewishtribune.ca/Trib...t/view/1102/53/
Not interested in dialogue with pro-Israel groups, SAIA spokesperson says
Written by Atara Beck
Tuesday, 18 November 2008
TORONTO – Although the turnout at yet another anti-Israel campus event was insubstantial, it was worth attending for the clarification of three significant points. Last Thursday evening, at the final program of a series sponsored last week by Ontario Public Interest Research Group (OPIRG), Students Against Israel Apartheid (SAIA) focused on the new ‘re-branding Israel’ project launched by Israeli Consul General Amir Gissin.
Notwithstanding countless attempts made over the years by pro-Israel groups to encourage communication on campus, the anti-Israel students have no interest in dialogue, according to SAIA spokesperson Nadia Daar. In response to an invitation during the Q&A by Josh Xiong, vice-president of external affairs for Zionists at U of T, to hold discussions, Daar told the audience at University of Toronto’s Sidney Smith building that dialogue “doesn’t make sense. Blacks in South Africa didn’t dialogue with whites about apartheid.”
Second, a two-state solution to
Emile:
Haloscan has a character limit. Feel free to repost the last part of your comment.
Thank you Dr. D.
The link will suffice for now, I think.
It was of course to illustrate how entrenched, fanatical and just plain unproductive the "Israel Apartheid" people are getting.
I'm all for a viable two state thing. But overseas supporters of Palestinian Arabs should be building bridges and helping develop viable industries and eventual infrastructure in every field, especially tourism, agriculture, water conservation, banking and so on rather than simply being a protest movement pushing invective at every turn.
You'll never hear me say that the Israelis are totally blameless for the situation as it exists today. They aren't. Apparently there still is a land grab of sorts going on by settling movements in the West Bank, probably scrambling against the day that the lines will finally be drawn. It would have been more of a show of good faith not to do so.
The security wall and the stifling occupation of the West Bank is obviously intolerable. But these eventually can be sorted out. My own thoughts are that after the line is drawn, Jews on the Palestinian side would have dual citizenship. This way there isn't the pain and dislocation of being uprooted.
My own thoughts are that after the line is drawn, Jews on the Palestinian side would have dual citizenship. This way there isn't the pain and dislocation of being uprooted.
I wouldn't have believed this if I hadn't read it right here.
Wow. Just wow.
Explain away, if you will, the Jewish members of the Nazi war machine (Rogge, Grassmann, Blackenkohler, etc) but you don't have to because it is irrelevant. Prior to the Reichstag Fire there were many parties in parliament. There is not a complete parallel, as fascism has many forms, though the "garrison mentality" and the use of genetic pseudo-science in defence of "rights" are common ones, similar to the Loyalists of Northern Ireland. Not for nothing was the Zionist settlement called "A Little, Loyal Jewish Ulster". The heady days of "socialism" on the kibbutz vanished with the first Palestinian cheap labour. If I opposed the Armenian Genocide, it doesn't make me anti-Moslem. If I oppose the Chinese occupation of Tibet, no one says I am racist against the Han. As the good Doctor points out, Israel is given a free ride where another country would be condemned. When, by the way, is the UN going to impose sanctions on Israel and use military force to drive it back to its legal borders?
David,
'scuse me, but it Looks like you don't know the first thing about that Middle east conflict between the Areabs and the Jews.
That's OK, you've got good company.
Israel is actually the Only state in the world that was formally created by a majority vote of the United Nations in 1948. Simultaneously, another was also designated for Arabs. The Jews accepted theirs. The Arabs rejected their UN mandated state and declared a war of annihalation against the nascent Jewish state, which they lost.
During the conflict, the Jews seized as spoils of war, more territory.
To date, there have never been borders established demarcating Israel or Palestine. There are armistice lines. Presumably, this is what you are referring to.
Dr. Dawg, why are you so surprised at my suggestion?
It's unlikely that the Israelis will ever willingly pull back to the 1967 lines. It's doubtful that they would substantially divide Jerusalem too. In either case, the 300,000 Jews living beyond the 1967 lines would simply not accede to being torn up and moved, leaving huge investments behind. Also it would be potentially disastrous to leave Palestine "Judenrein," ethnically cleansed of Jews.
Look at the disaster in Gaza after the Jews pulled out.
If the populations could be encouraged to mix and normalize relations, even over generations, this , I think would be best.
Israel has a 20% Arab population. Why not a significant Jewish population in a sovereign Palestine?
"Jewish members of the Nazi war machine"
"Reichstag Fire"
"fascism has many forms"
"genetic pseudo-science"
Hey, David, you forgot the Protocols and Khazars!
David's rant is kind of dis-jointed above but He may have been referring to the fact there happened to be a few hidden Jews in Hitler's military machine..Whatever. it's off topic for this thread.
They weren't "hidden". In fact their superiors stood up for them and they served Germany well during the war. Admiral Rogge was one of the most well respected naval officers on either side, ending his career in the FRG navy. Anyway, how did we get off topic? Oh yes. The good Doctor was accused of heresy. Anyway, the situation regarding Israel-Palestine was summed up very well by Rahm Emanuel's father. Nothing more needs to be said.
"Free pass"?! It never ceases to amaze me how Israel's bashers can keep a straight face. Week after week, year after year, in scurrilous report after scurrilous report inspired by the world's "paragons of human rights" at the UNHRC, Israel is vilified as no other country in the world. Great swatches of the leftwing (and far rightwing) press disgorge a stream of vituperation that often knows no libellous bounds. Whole areas of the world wallow in the vilest of calumnies about Israel and the Jews and if Western liberals take any notice it is often only to pooh-pooh this virulent racism and engage in the most blatant bigotry of low expectations. (Talk about getting a "free pass"!)
This shameless projection recalls how in the weeks leading up the US elections the Republicans and the rightwing slander machine kept producing ad after ad promoting the message that Obama was a Muslim, a Marxist and a pal of terrorists, all the while complaining that he was getting a "free pass". Despite anti-Zionism having become the established orthodoxy in certain milieux (e.g. academia and the bien pensant left), every second criticism of Israel gets prefaced if it were a courageous act. It's not. It's tiresome and it's a lie. As I said above, it's like rich white men claiming discrimination. It would be laughable if it wouldn't have such damaging consequences.
That should read "free ride" not "free pass". And "swaths", not "swatches"... bad proof-reading.
More on Gaza. Um, "courageous".
http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/m...e-speaking-out/
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