This also explains why they feel comfortable with lying all the time. There is no shame in deceiving someone inferior to you.
Home run, bases loaded, bottom of the ninth, 7th game, world series.
I have read some of Guttman, and of course, he is on the money. What is fascinating to me are the conflicts educated/western Muslims must face. They face two equally devastating choices: Admit that their culture and society, on the macro level, is backward and deficient, and take the next step into the world of the living, or, they take refuge in that culture/society, so as not to have to make the choice- and thus avoid having to face their families, communities, etc., and what amounts to severing the world they know for one they don't.
They mimic/parrot well, but in the end, they have to relearn everything from values to interpersonal relationships to communications.
This is an excellent wrap-up of the shame culture. One important aspect that has been referred to repeatedly in all the failed peace efforts was the Palestinian/Arab child rearing. Overtly, the agreements always called for the Paleos to stop teaching incitement and hatred; of course the PA has never changed their educatinal methods. To change their blame based education risks accepting more responsibility on themselves with the results you write about. Covertly (unconscioiusly), the Arab habit of circumscising Oedipal age boys gives a tremendous boost to the shame side of the equation at the expense of the guilty side. Boys give up their attachment to the primitve mother in the face of fantasied castration; in the face of an actual castration-equivalent, regression to the pre-Oedipal shame configuration is almost assured.
Shrink-W, as I pointed out in a previous comment some months ago, boys who are circumscized also gain a greater fear of women through sexual arousal; it takes a week to recover from the procedure, and any boners experienced during that period will cause pain.
Something else: the West used to be much more of a shame culture centuries ago, under feudalism -- though accounts from the Crusader era make it clear that this never reached Arab levels, at least in the treatment of women.
I perceive the influence of religion and the necessity for conquerors to earn a living from the soil as key elements in slowly taming the descendants of the thieving brigands of the Roman Empire into gentleman. As monarchy increased its grip on the justice system, the influence of the feudal lord declined, and the influence of the King's Law and King's Peace grew. Naturally, guilt was a more useful ally to monarchs at directly influencing the masses than shame could be, so the clergy was directed - chosen by the kings - to emphasize this aspect over others.
I thank Dr. Sanity for helping me bring this all to the surface.
"Let me be clear that I am not excusing the behavior of Islam and Arabs toward women, Jews, Christians, and other cultures. I am merely trying to understand those elusive "root causes" that everyone talks about."
-Dr. S
not to be too simplistic about it,
but:
Mohammed+ambition+Torah(misunderstood)
+rejection as a prophet by local Jews
=Quran(=jihad=dhimmis=caliphate,etc,etc,etc)
why anybody is looking for any
"root causes" when there is a direct "script" to be read,i find truly baffling.
"That old saw about 'to understand all is to forgive all' is a load of tripe. Some things, the more you understand them, the more you loathe them."
(Robert A. Heinlein, "Starship Trooper")
Former Belgian-
How true! The more I understand about Islam, the more I loathe it.
I think this is very accurate, but misses one major factor. The shame involved is not restricted to the individual in Arab culture, but pours down on the entire family or, in some cases, tribe.
You approach this in the discussion of how Palestine is seen as a collective failure, but I think more needs to be made of it.
As an instance, the extended family of the killer of King Faisal, even though they were themselves of royal heritage, was driven to leave the capital because of the shame attached to a member's behavior. They remain personae non gratiae, 40 years after the fact.
I'd recommend David Pryce-Jones' The Closed Circle to see this in a particularly Arab context.
Dr s - great post as always. I would recommend reading Salmam Rushdie's excellent article - I thin k it was either in the new Yorker or the Atlantic .
MUSLIM DEMOGRAPHY RECAP: how widespread sociopathy arises from widespread endogamous polygamy and misogyny - and what can be done about it
Read my previous posts on the subject HERE http://astuteblogger.blogspot.co...ns-to-
have.html
and HERE
http://astuteblogger.blogspot.co...d-
polygamy.html
and HERE
http://astuteblogger.blogspot.co...-
matrimony.html
.
The facts in these posts make a pretty convincing case: these practices - the ethos which empowers them, and the social conditions which arise from them - are at the core of Radical Islam.
The ethos which has produced these anti-social social organizing principles enables and reinforces jihadoterror against the "infidel," for if you must marry within the family to retain property, and if you can reclaim honor by murdering a female family member, then you can certainly commit genocide against "infidels" with a clear conscience.
IMHO: We must force the backward nations which still permit the practices of endogamy, polygamy and misogyny to pass laws prohibiting them, and thereby begin to transform them from tribal societies based on xenophobia, to modern societies based on the rule of law and respect for the individual.
The internatonal communtiy could pressure these backward nations by withholding loans, insurance, and free-trade agreements from any country which allows endogamy, polygamy and misogyny. And we should also insist on an arms embargo, too. After all: these archaic practices are indefensible.
This aggressive but non-military plan is consistent with the UN's Declaration of Universal Human Rights. This document holds that ALL HUMANS EVERYWHERE are entitled to their innate, UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS.
(Just as FDR said in his famous FOUYR FREEDOMS speech.)
Just as we should intervene internationally to stop genocide or slavery, so to must we intervene to halt these archaic sociopathic anti-humane practices.
As free people, we have a duty to liberate our tyrannized brothers and sisters everywhere. As potential victims of jihadoterror, we have a duty to protect ourselves and and children.
AND, YUP: this should include Iraq. And Saudi Arabia, too! And Jordan. The whole lot of 'em!
Well done. I might quibble that while Euro society as a whole did not treat women as badly, the self-promoted elites came close. But then, I would have asked those in late Nineteenth Century England arguing that women were incapable of understanding by "virtue" of gender if they realized they were skirting treason in their implications about the Queen...
A society (Saudi Arabia subset) in which the pilot of a multi-engined jet aircraft is "protected" from driving a car is in obvious trouble. But members of such a society may not even notice the silliness, it is simply the way things are.
> After their armies had been defeated, their fleets sunk, their cities set aflame, and their home islands invaded, they launched the kamikaze bomber offensive, thereby committing a hi-tech form of hara-kiri, their usual remedy against intolerable shame. It is in this way that the modern Arab world resembles the Japan of World War II.
The difference between the Japanese and the Arabs? The Japanese KNEW they'd screwed up. It made them ready for change.
The Arabs are being told by OUR OWN PEOPLE that they are just victims. They continue to F*** up.
Clearly, the solution is to deal with our own people who keep telling them it's not their fault. After that they might actually start to figure it out.
> This also explains why they feel comfortable with lying all the time. There is no shame in deceiving someone inferior to you.
Actually, it depends entirely on how you approach the inferiority. If you consider them unable to help being inferior, then a generous soul says one should not do such a thing. It's only the slime bucket soul that thinks nothing of this.
It takes a total lack of pride to take advantage of a retarded person or a small child.
> I perceive the influence of religion and the necessity for conquerors to earn a living from the soil as key elements in slowly taming the descendants of the thieving brigands of the Roman Empire into gentleman. As monarchy increased its grip on the justice system, the influence of the feudal lord declined, and the influence of the King's Law and King's Peace grew. Naturally, guilt was a more useful ally to monarchs at directly influencing the masses than shame could be, so the clergy was directed - chosen by the kings - to emphasize this aspect over others.
Uhhh, hate to burst your bubble but the influence of the feudal lord faded as a direct result of the fading of agrarian society, replaced by industrial society. The primary organizing principle, the corporation, took the place of the primary organizing principle of the feudal system, the lords and ladies.
Methinks you doth read **too** much into that psychobabble crap.
I think there's a limit beyond which the psychological stuff starts to regurgitate gibberish via GIGO principles and recursion.
> "That old saw about 'to understand all is to forgive all' is a load of tripe. Some things, the more you understand them, the more you loathe them."
(Robert A. Heinlein, "Starship Trooper")
I tend to disagree with this. I think if you truly, deeply understood EVERYTHING, then you'd forgive all.
This is why God forgives.
If it doesn't work that way, then most of us are in deep, deep doo doo.
I think you should pray you're wrong.
(8-D
Uhhh, hate to burst your bubble but the influence of the feudal lord faded as a direct result of the fading of agrarian society, replaced by industrial society.
No, sir. Monarchs started dominating the feudal lords centuries before the industrial revolution. Early limited-liability corporations were organized around trade or the production of government-sponsored industry, and thus had nothing to do with "lords".
But don't take my word for it; do your own research and decide for yourself. This probably isn't the place for a history debate.
I note that you have not justified your statement that this entire line of reasoning is garbage-in-garbage-out. So just who is engaged in "psychobabble"?
Are you familiar with Dr. Nancy Kobrin's and Yoram Schweitzer's book, The Sheik's New Clothes: the Psychoanalytic Roots of Islamic Suicide Terrorism, re barbarous family and clan dynamics in childrearing before the youngsters ever even get to school?
I've blogged about it here: Arrested development
I appreciate the distinction between shame and guilt but do believe they are points upon a spectrum, and while the search for honor and avoidance of shame are fundamental to being human, being obsessed with honor and shame is associated with the psychological immaturity of adolescence.
Excellent post. Mencken wrote: "The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught," a quote I like enough to have atop my blog. Read in light of your post it seems like it describes favoring a guilt culture over a shame culture, doesn't it?
Im going to have to read this a few times. Very thought provoking.
The work of Silvan Tomkins and Michigan State University's own Gershen Kaufman (among others) makes it very clear that shame is experienced whether someone knows or not. And guilt has been reified as something quite separate from shame but it is actually a shame state. Before Freud, people spoke of shame much more than guilt.
If Jews blame Muslims for the acts, Muslims would blame Jews for the terrorist acts. So in that way, it's a vice-versa case where you cannot actually say who did it. Like you said - blame it on each other. Of course; who got blamed first?, is the question. I think we all know which religious affiliation was blamed first, hmmm?
-bassistX
Actually, lying is a sin and therefore they wouldn't lie because it's considered something pretty major. I mean, come on - making up crap, decieving people, yeah.. I think that's a sin.
-bassistX
you are a pseudo intellectual and your piece reeks of oreintalisim
,
a psychiatrist in Cleveland, oh
'liberalism' seems to be a shame/honor culture, non-liberals cast it as a guilt culture.
this explains why they seem deranged to us, yet understand their fellow travellers.
Well done!!
Mr. Guttman says, "Remember that the Japanese also turned to suicide tactics in WWII to evade the humiliation of defeat."
But it isn't the same. Consider that humiliated defeated Japan rapidly saw the futility of it's behaviour, and, by striving, soon became an economic powerhouse. The Arabs have had ample time to see the futility of their approach, and capitalize on the vast manpower and other resources at their disposal; and yet they stubbornly persist in their destructive ways. No. You can not compare Muslims with the Japanese, at all.
The reason I mention this is that if one believes they are the same, he might believe that as Japan was "saved from itself" so too will be Islam. I doubt it, because a "humiliated" Japan didn't hold a grudge, and accepted the aid provided by their conqueror. Compare that with the Arabs, who plummet to ever greater despondency and violence the more aid one tries to give them.
The danger in confusing the two groups is that we will be misled into looking for a solution that doesn't exist, thereby affording them more time to do vastly more damage.
bollocks
"But it isn't the same. Consider that humiliated defeated Japan rapidly saw the futility of it's behaviour, and, by striving, soon became an economic powerhouse".
Context: AFTER they were totally defeated to the bring of anihilation. IOW, they stood on the railroad tracks of reality and DID get smushed by the train.
Enlightening article. though I don't agree with many claims. I don't like the way some of the claims are presented.
I agree that shame has a lot to do with the fact that the arabs remain backward. Shame inhibits free speech and free thinking, because free thinking could be "offending" and can cause collective "shame". No free thinking and free expression = no new ideas = no evolution.
revolutioned.blogspot.com
..
absurd thought -
God of the Universe thinks
up ways to keep women down
..
Psychological theory, good as far as it goes. But what are we going to do, send millions of jihadists to therapy?
What creates a shame culture? Well, first, what created our guilt culture. Ten commandments and a scripture filled, absolutely filled with exhortations to righteousness - juxtaposed with stories about people falling short and God showing them mercy and favor for repentance. In other words, the Old Testament. Add to that the absolute forgiveness available through belief in Jesus in the New Testament and you have a culture that can handle guilt...because a solution to guilt is provided. Without that solution, guilt is too heavy to be faced. And yes, religious institutions have screwed things up quite a bit but the underlying thought structure is there; God is PLEASED with repentance. Forgiveness is possible and righteousness attainable through mercy. I submit that Guilt cultures have a worldview of Law, repentance and forgiveness.
Shame cultures just don't have that, and the resultant attempts to control and socialize behavior result in the results shown in the box/graph in the article. It's a different worldview. Self-worth is achieved by what others think of one, instead of what God thinks of one. It makes you dependent on other's opinion instead of your own assessment of yourself by an absolute standard (God).
Dare I say that there is a solution that is not directly psyschological, but religious? Change the worldview, you change the culture.
OK, I expect a storm of criticism, but think about it.
Dr. Sidney states without much discussion in referring to Mohammad that "the Koran is pretty consistent with what is known about his personality and style". Where have these characteristics been described and on what is the basis for these opinions?
Actually, lying is a sin and therefore they wouldn't lie because it's considered something pretty major. I mean, come on - making up crap, decieving people, yeah.. I think that's a sin.
If you're a Mohammadean, lying to the infidel is, uh, kosher 
Lol someone told me to read this. And I agree, I am a Punjabi Muslim. In the Arab Israeli wars. Pakistani pilots were used to down Israeli jets. The Pakistanis were so good, that even the Jews praised them. But the Arabs lost a war which should not have been lost. Any they lost it becouse of their arrogance and underestimating the Jews. It was simple, the Arabs had to blockade Israel, the Israeli would not have won a long wear. But the Arabs messed this simple strategy up. Saves the Arabs right if you ask me. Our Pakistani made nukes should not be pointing Indian cities says my dad, he says they should be pointing at every damn Arab country on the map.
Arabs have done absolutely nothing at all and I agree. Even the Qu'ran labels the Arabs as the must hypocritical persons on earth.
Having spent quite a bit of time reading and arguing with both Muslims and ex-Muslims, I don't buy this theses at all.
One wonders if Gutmann is familiar with Islam at all.
Certainly Arabs are ashamed, but what shames them is that they're not living up to their religion's expectation that they be masters and conquerers of the (literally) damned people of the inferior religions.
Look at Southern Thailand - not Arabs, yet they're fighting their neighbors.
To a certain degree it's not even right to say that shame is the problem.
There is no problem from their point of view.
We see war as a horrible thing, but they see Jihad as fulfillment of their duty. It's peace that is seen as an abomination.
... if you want to understand this, stop trying to psychoanalyze societies and start psychoanalyzing Mohammad.
how'bout armenians who've teaching incitement and hatred against Azeris for the last 100 years
armenians supposed to be christians, aren't they?
People open your eyes. You all sound like well educated and extremely knowledgable people. How can you believe the trash Gutmann speaks? Can you not pick up his prejudice tone? His entire article is biast and has no meaning. It has no facts, no proper sourcing, no logic. Do you truly believe that Arabs fear the rights of women? You all talk of Arabs as if they're barbarians. I ask you kindly to open the link to his entire article. Read it and read the comment I have written on it.
You are making huge and false generalizations. What you are discussing is not the arab culture. It is a small minority that arabs themselve despise. What you seem to forget is that those suicidal bombers, in Iraq for example, are killing Arabian people. We dont support they're causes or beliefs.
Another point I want to make is how can you believe that you now understand the Arab culture from reading one article. Many of you have not even been to the Middle East. What I want to understand is why you talk of Arab people with this tone of feeling superior to them. You speak of Arabs as appalling labratory subjects. I recommend you read the book "Orientalism" by Edward W. Said. It discusses why people like yourselves draw such conclusions on the Arabs.
Lets discuss this suicidal issue. I want to point out that the orientals (Japanese and Arabs) are not the only ones that commited suicide in harsh time. Do you remember Adolf Hitler? He, his followers, and the SS? Or is that all excussable because they were Europeans and Christians? Another thing is that when the Japenese, I refer to the Samurais, commit suicide because of shame, it is respectable and honorable. Thats why its an admired climax of a wonderful movie called "The Last Samurai". Why do you suppose that is?
Finally, I want to make a point on Islam. I myself am a Christian. I have several Muslim friends and none of them are how you believe them to be. They dont plot how to kill me in the night. They dont feel superior to me or insult me because of my religion. Neither do they pray for the death of Jews. Listen to me. You are discussing Arabs, and Muslims in particular, as terrorists. Those terrorists are weak-minded and influenced by those who misuse religion for their own personal reasons, just like Pope Urban II called the Crusades. I remind you agian, stop making these generalizations on the entire Arab culture based on these terrorists and minorities.
i posted a long comment before, it seems to have been removed, it didnt have any bad content, especially compared to what others have written
This is an extremely biased piece of writing. For one, the author should differentiate between arabs n muslims. not all muslims are arabs. To equate their cultural practices as common to all muslims is wrong.
I am a muslim woman, and find that most of these notions dont apply to me...
You cannot make any distinction in Islam between the religion, the culture, the law, the ideology or the government: in theory or in practice for one simple reason, Islam itself forbids it. So any distinctions we might wish upon Islam are in fact MOOT, and actually quite silly on our part. It is beyond me why nobody gets this.
ISLAM - Function: noun
Etymology: Arabic islAm - submission/surrender (to the will of ALLAH)
And there you have it; it’s just that simple.
You are a slave to the will of Allah.
You don’t choose Islam, you accept it.
The KEY is Shame vs. Guilt.
Freedom (heaven) can only be achieved in death.
Choice itself is the sin.
Islam views compassion as a weakness.
Totalitarian to the nth degree.
To be honest ‘slavery’ isn’t nearly a strong enough term to describe something so complete that it insures a damaged psyche when faithfully implemented.
Here is the KEY, Shame vs. Guilt: The Islamic culture does not recognize self-imposed guilt (can you say suicide bomber?) because YOU are a slave (to the will of Allah) and can't be trusted with ANY choice - not even guilt. Guilt comes from within; it’s up to you. But we’re talking “totalitarian to the nth degree” here. With Islam, nothing comes from within; SHAME, on the other hand, must be cast upon you (it ain't up to you). The metaphor is Stoning. People in the psychiatric community a lot smarter than me, will tell you that this aspect (the total absence of guilt) is what produces a severely damaged person, incapable of empathy. But hey, you’re a slave. You don’t need empathy. My definition of virtue is 'doing the right thing even when no one is there to see you'. With Islam, if no one is there (excluding infidels of course) to cast shame, then no harm - no foul. They do not fear guilt, they fear (the shame of) getting caught. WE keep agreements out of a SELF IMPOSED sense of honor. With Islam you only keep agreements (again, excluding with infidels of course, for whom agreements don’t count in the first place) to avoid shame. Islam is literally a religion/culture without honor or virtue. But hey, we don't need honor or virtue, we have Allah!
If you were a slave, what would be your definition of Heaven? I dare say it would be Freedom. With Islam, Freedom (heaven) can only be achieved in death. And we Americans are so naive, “Let’s just set them free”!
There is only one way to force a man to be a slave, and keep him a slave, that is to terrorize him. This explains why Islam and terrorism seem/are inseparable.
Islam views compassion as a weakness. But hey, you’re a slave - you don’t need compassion, you have Allah - compassion is his job not yours! Compassion is the Achilles Heel of western culture and western religion and should be exploited at every opportunity. Losers are always defeated by their OWN dogma, not the other guy’s! (Can you say Political Correctness?)
My religious faith has a congregational following of one, me, and up until recently, when it came to religion, I could say “I don’t have a dog in this fight”. But the mantra “Death to all Infidels” does not leave much wiggle room for you or me. I refuse to be a slave to anyone, including my own God, let alone somebody else’s. But when it comes to FREEDOM, I assure you, I don't have an Achilles Heel.
These days we lament the loss of individual accountability and personal responsibility, but guess what, Islam never had it, ever. And it was designed that way on purpose! So as you watch the events of the day unfold, and you begin to shake your head (as you often do) and you ask yourself once again: “What the hell were they thinking?” Now you know – All shame and no guilt, Totalitarian to the nth degree.
To the Author of the Article:
I would like to make a comment and say that the primary sources that you have used for your section on Arab culture are written by a person who does not know what he is talking about. He draws conclusions from his own predjudices and truly does not know the religion or the culture or even simple history. I believe that you yourself should look into the history of the region, the culture as well as the religion and draw your own conclusions from your own rather than draw conclusions from biased, predjudiced lies just because it seems to prove your thesis.
By quoting his sources, people who are not familiar with the subject matter are going to gain a very tainted perception of the subject. People read the article, trace the sources and gain nothing but predijudice, lies and misconception thus further damaging what really is and thus growing more racism and predjudice in an already fragile society.
thank you
I can readily take on board that in Japan soldiers and others committed suicide to defend against shame. How, then, can one explain the manipulation of others into suicide - that is, the use of suicide terror as a political weapon in the Middle East and elsewhere?
I can well believe that the handlers and recruiters of suicide terrorists are sociopaths, but if suicide terror were indeed a defence against shame, then why aren't these people leading by example? Is it that, being sociopaths, they are incapable of feeling shame?
What is the opposite of a shining light.?
Black spray paint who knows?
This is only useful for prejudiced and paranoid people, writer included.
Doesn't he know that Christian, Jewish and Islamic culture all have the same roots? With same underlying concepts of shame/honour/innocence and guilt?
What would have benefited me if he demonstrated if the current Arab culture is a deviation from the Islamic teachings in this area. But he obviously had another agenda.
From reading the articles on this site and seeing the list of links listed here,Dr.Sanity is a narcissist and a bigot.
Nuff said
WE CAN NO LONGER REMAIN SILENT.
Islam treats women like a bunch of animals.There exists enough space in the Qur'an in favor of gender equality.If the situation remains unchanged. Islam is an intolerant religion.We in the Netherlands are not going to bow to any persecutions and murders by the Islamic guerrilla regime.But fight back until Radical Islam is brought to a stop together with it's forces of primitive ideology of the Sharia's tyranny.I am Indonesian born Islam.But don't do this this massacres in my name not anymore.
My message to all Islam sufferers is:-
Islam hates you. Together we can fight
The Jemaah Isliamiah is an Islamic terror network synonyms with Indonesia.In their urge of revenge and hatred towards America. The stupid
Jemaah Islamiah bomb America in Jakarta and in Bali! Since when Islam turned it's war machine against this suffering nation battered by frequent earthquakes and natural disasters.
Amsterdam today, the 7th.October,2009.
My name is Listiani Lestari id:530971312. Converted from Islam by my Dutch husband.
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