Shivers go down my spine when I think about socialized medicine. The government can't fix potholes...
Washington | Email | Homepage | 03.14.06 - 8:22 pm | #

There is a joke that socialized medicine is great -- until you get sick. But that is true on a serious and not merely cynical level. It is comforting enough to know that there is a safety net of health care, that one can avert one's eyes from its serious limitations. The health care in Romania was barbaric under Ceausescu: because needles were reused it had the highest children's AIDS rate in Europe. When our medical teams fist started going there after the revolution, they felt they had stepped into the 1930's. Yet the older people, especially in the villages, miss the old system. There is a comfort in being cared for, even if cared for badly. In England people are indignant that Americans don't have something like the NHS. It seems so backward, cruel, and unsafe to them. Yet if you catch them on another day, they will tell you how bad the NHS care actually is.

Also, once you have an accurate diagnosis and prescribed treatment, who wouldn't want socialized medicine? The ads for universal health coverage always put exactly this sort of patient forward: "My heart medication costs $272/month. If I didn't go to Canada to get it I wouldn't be alive..."

But what if you didn't know what your heart condition was, or what would treat it best? Would you still want to go to Canada then? Of course not. For that, you want the American system.
Assistant Village Idiot | Email | Homepage | 03.14.06 - 11:07 pm | #

Living on a border town with Canada, and having a spouse associated with the medical system here in Michigan I get a unique perspective of the situation.

And your right, it is not pretty over in Canada.

There is a rumor floating around that there may be some sort of supplemental insurance concept that might be offered over in Canada (or perhaps just in Ontario). So much for the single tiered system, eh?
DonaldMac | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 6:03 am | #

We hear a lot about the health care systems in Britain and Canada, but what about countries like Sweden, Germany, France, etc. Are they better, worse?
Jim in MI | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 7:33 am | #

As a Canadian I am thrilled that America keeps its private health care system.

The only reason why Japan chooses to make cars in Canada is because of America's crippling health care cost on the business community. Its our one competative advantage.

Sure American health care is double the cost per procedure, and sure 40 million people without insurance use the emergency room instead of the much cheaper preventative care, and sure America spends more GDP on health care than Canada...

...but atleast America can claim it kept true to its strict ideolistic economic model despite the obvious crippling effects.

Incedently, how America's debt-to-gdp ratio these days?

Face it. For every one negative story of socialized health care there are ten negative stories of private health care. At some point, we have to be pragmatic.
JordanR | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 7:58 am | #

And as a Canadian, yes there are long waiting times for certain surgeries such as knees and hip replacement.

But I had a nasty motorcycle accident, lots of surgeries, and the treatment was great and I didn't go broke.

It was worth not having a private room!
JordanR | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 8:00 am | #

Sorry JordanR, but you are full of it. You've got it backwards, too. To the extent that there is mandated health "coverage" by employers, then we too have a degree of socialized medicine. That is what has been and will continue to drive our costs up. People need to learn that they gets what they pays for--except of course when they pay it to the government and they get much less. Private health care with the consumer making the choices in consultation with the doctor was and always will be the best possible option compatible with freedom. If health care is so important, then the last group that should run it is government. If I were you, I wouldn't be so snarky about the breakdown of your own health care system. I'm sure you think its the best until you can get access to something better. The Cubans are under the impression that theirs is superior too.
anonymoustoo | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 11:56 am | #

Canada's already *got* a two-tier system: local care and treatment for not-too-serious stuff for everybody, while for anything truly serious or mysterious, the poor are stuck in Canadian waiting lines and those who can afford it go to the US.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 12:14 pm | #

The simple fact is that socialized health care is more efficient than private health care. You can argue against socialized health care on idealogical grounds all you want--although, I'm quite certain I can come up with more horror stories about private medicine in the U.S. than you can come with for socialized medicine in a comparable industrialized nation (sorry, no comparisons to Cuba then)--but you expose yourselves as the idiots you are when you try to argue that private health care is more efficient (and by "efficient," I mean cost effective).
nate | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 2:13 pm | #

If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait until it's free.

Government-rationed care would to do to healthcare what government schools have done to public education, namely mandate mediocrity at exhorbitant cost.
GnuCarSmell | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 2:47 pm | #

Socialized medicine, like socialism, is dead. It doesn't work. Failure. The influx of Canadians coming across into the US for major procedures is a testament to that.
Washington | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 3:25 pm | #

Italy is worse, women are told in labor that they can't have medication because it would cost money for the govt. You have to bring your own food, linens, and even tp to the hospital. There are two systems there too, the national system for the masses and the private system you pay even more money for. Free? The tax rate is over 60%.
kat | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 3:54 pm | #

only in the magical thinking of liberal dems can this, or any other, gov't run healthcare. we already have at least two gov't health systems in the us. one, the va, is perpetually short of money and cutting benefits, but is paying for chiropractic, because of political pressure. two, medicare, which refuses to acknowledge the true costs of care and asks the providers to subsidize it twice, once with taxes and once with reduced fees.
in my little town of 15k 90 miles south of the canadian border, we have 6 canadian drs. two gave up marriages so they could practice here and make a living. one of them believes in a national healthcare system for the us. i wonder how far south he's willing to move. he'll be marching with penguins before he figures out that gov'ts can't run healthcare.
mike christian | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 6:53 pm | #

Socialized medicine will only shift money to highly paid "administrators and paper pushers" while those who provide the care (doctors, nurses, technicians) will continue to to be cut to the marrow of bones. 176 vacant nursing slots accounts for the poor nursing care, not a few staff eating pizza on their break.
Pat in NC | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 7:36 pm | #

Socialized medicine, like all socialism, is more of a religion than an ideology, which is why arguing is somewhat pointless. I say "somewhat" because it still has to be done, even though we're arguing with a wall.

The same BullPuckey gets dragged out every time. I love the "more efficient" one, BTW, the Post Office says that too (snicker).

There are some people for whom the word "incentive" has no real meaning, and they CANNOT be made to understand its importance, even if that importance is blindingly clear in their own lives. I don't understand why it happens, but it happens often enought to drag dozens of countries through tens of millions of innocent deaths without figuring it out, and hundreds of millions of lives full of suffering.

Russia wasn't poor because of lack of resources, just as North Korea isn't poor because of overpopulation. There's a common denominator that some people are unwilling to see because it means their ideals are not only wrong, but immoral.

And that's just too much to bear.
Merovign | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 8:27 pm | #

nate and JordanR both put forward the notion that there are 10 horror stories about private health care for every one about socialized. Also, that socialized medicine has proven more efficient. I doubt those strenuously. I recommend the work of Theodore Dalrymple, and the frequent health-system articles over at TCSdaily to your attention.
Assistant Village Idiot | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 10:30 pm | #

I can tell that not too many of you are doctors or heath care professionals of any type. Myself, i'm a pediatrician, and I'm here to tell you: the US system is bankrupt, soon to collapse, and not providing adequate care to most children.

Pat in NC has it entirely backwards. Private insurance companies have many more layers of bureaucracy between patient and provider than Medicare or Medicaid does, and have lower administrative costs--you could, as they say, look it up, though I doubt you will. The one private insurance system with comparably low administrative costs is Kaiser, and they're as close to national health as we've got in the US.

When health care is run to maximize CEO profits, the results are predictable. Of course, for those who worship the provate sector, no amount of evidence will suffice.
DocAmazing | Email | Homepage | 03.15.06 - 11:46 pm | #

I know this is unusual in a debate, but perhaps we can look at "facts and figures"

How much of America's GDP is dedicated to health care versus Canada's? (Answer: 14% vs 10%)

Which country has a longer lifespan and lower infant mortality rate? (Answer: Canada)

How much administration cost exist for a major health plan in a midsize U.S. state? (Answer: More than all of Canada's administration cost combined)

I am a capitolist pig. But I am not ideolistic enough to endorse private health care when it is an obvious failure.

I am not saying that Canada's system doesn't have problems. But compared to "give every test we have so we don't get sued" American health care system, its damn bloody effecient!
JordanR | Email | Homepage | 03.16.06 - 4:31 am | #

> Yet if you catch them on another day, they will tell you how bad the NHS care actually is.

AVI, this is the typical leftie position, bereft of wisdom of any kind. They can't -- or won't -- learn from mistakes.

Socialized Medicine is a mistake, pure and simple. The problem is, they cannot grasp that -- they are CERTAIN in works ("Pay NO attention to that economist behind the curtain!!") and that all it needs are some "tweaks" to fix the problems with it.
Inferno Sanguinante Dell 'OH | Email | Homepage | 03.16.06 - 8:57 am | #

That comment approaches on religious fervor - dogmatic insistence that you hold the absolute truth, insulting the opponent, and dismissing the opposing arguments without any application of evidence or reason, and without even touching on the merits or issues. Sometimes that approach reflects a height of arrogance, sometimes it reflects a depth of stupidity, but it never contributes to the discourse.
Aaron | Email | Homepage | 03.16.06 - 11:57 am | #

Government-rationed care would to do to healthcare what government schools have done to public education, namely mandate mediocrity at exhorbitant cost.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamihe...th/ 14106584.htm

Luckily we get to pay more for less access and still get mediocre health care!
Betaray | Email | Homepage | 03.16.06 - 5:14 pm | #

Funny you should mention public education. the powerhouse medical and life science institutions here in California are UCLA, UCSF and UC Berkeley, with the other UC medical schools (Davis, Irvine and San Diego) accounting for most of the research and medical education that's left. All are public schools--despite the fact that pharmaceutical companies keep the patents when they contribute some token amount to research done on a university campus. Most nursing education is done in public schools, as well; I'm not sure what the portion of dentists in our state are trained in public schools. All residency training is funded by Medicare--another public program.

Fact is, pretty much every medical professional you've ever run across had some public education--most had quite a bit. Hope it wasn't too mediocre, for the sake of your health.
DocAmazing | Email | Homepage | 03.17.06 - 1:34 am | #

As long as the doctors guild is running the story in Canada and America you're only shifting chairs on the Titantic.

The unspoken reality: medical colleges are not expanding to meet demand. The guild controls them. In essentially every other profession, America exports talent to the world. Not so doctors. We import a staggering fraction of our medical talent.

How you fund health care is irrelevant and a waste of debating air: supply is constrained. Relative to all other wages, MDs have seen steady relentless advances.

Entering a profession to do good, they always end up doing well.

You can find the exception to prove the rule; but virtually all doctors retire as multi-millionairs.

Having a medical license is easily the most valuable certificate in the Americas.

So neither country has a free market by any stretch. The performance advantage bounces back and forth depending on the specialty. The American system greatly advantages the elderly (heart surgeries), Canada is much better for the young. ( prenatal is great )

The true solution: take the guild down ... create more doctors.

We saw this before with airline pilots in the 1970's: they had incomes like doctors. With free markets: their relative wages have declined. They have not flown their craft into the ground, nor fled the profession. It's still a great paycheck and life. ( 80 hour months, tons of autopilot -- doctors wish they could do it! )

Remaining medical professions, attorneys and the insurance industry all pile onto the doctors payroll. That makes doctors wages high powered wages: they are the craft benchmark for all fellow travelers.

Naturally, these crafts constantly bicker as to their relative wage rate, even if their competitive merit is nil. ( hospital janitors )

Once the government created an exalted priesthood out of the guild, all was consequential.

Without lancing this boil, there is no hope for the Federal budget in the out years. The heart of all dilemas: unexamined beliefs and idols.

MASH, Marcus Welby, Dr, Kildare... you've done us in.
blert | Email | Homepage | 03.18.06 - 6:42 am | #

Hey, DocAmazing, you're conveniently forgetting the medical schools at USC, Loma Linda, University of the Pacific, and Stanford, not to mention the various dentistry, nursing, and pharmacy programs at private schools across the state. Plus the scientific research at Caltech. I'm sure all that just slipped your mind as you were making your point.

And hey, folks on the anti-socialized medicine side, you're all conflating systems where the government pays for medical care with systems where the government directly provides the medical care. There are salient differences.
Adam Villani | Email | Homepage | 03.20.06 - 5:29 pm | #

My mistake - UoP doesn't have a medical school. They do have a pharmacy school and a dentistry school.

FWIW, there are 6 accredited pharmacy schools in California. 4 of them are private (UoP, LLU, USC, WUHS), and 2 are public (UCSF, UCSD).

3 private medical schools (USC, LLU, Stanford), 5 public (UCSF, UCLA, UCI, UCD, UCSD).

3 private dentistry schools (USC, LLU, UoP), 2 public (UCLA, UCSF).

UC Berkeley does lots of scientific research, but doesn't have a medical, dentistry, or pharmacy school.

The only broad category dominated by public schools is 2-year nursing programs, which are mainly at community colleges. Bachelor's and Master's programs in nursing are spread out fairly evenly between public and private institutions.

Overall, medical education in California is pretty well-balanced between public and private institutions.
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