This is a tough issue that has too much emotion on both sides (what else is new?) I like the idea of a 1-2 year stand-down or moratorium on all immigration to focus on the borders and stopping the illegals first; then coming up with solutions. It would be a good time to do a few studies and see the impact it would have on the economy--both locally in places like CA -- and nationally.
anon2 | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 2:40 pm | #

Bill Frist's Ancestors Came From The Moon.........
Paramendra Bhagat | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 3:40 pm | #

I, too, welcome the legal immigrant who wants to come here to be free, work hard and become American. But we need to start asking what they can do for us, as a country (and I'm not talking about 'doing jobs Americans won't do'), not what we should do for them.

All this talk about "immigrant rights" is fallacious; what rights do illegal aliens have to demand anything at all except to be told to leave?

And sorry to disagree with you about 'we're all immigrants'. Michelle is correct: we are not all immigrants. I was born here, she was and so were you, regardless of where our parents came from. I am not an immigrant, I'm native born. Anyone else here legally is a guest until they decide to become citizens with all due rights AND OBLIGATIONS. Those who come illegally have already broken the pact and should be made to leave.

With all the talk of a guest-worker program, I have yet to hear anyone address what happens when our 'guests' have their anchor babies here. Then what?
Cindi | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 4:07 pm | #

>>...that the recent marches in favor of illegal immigration will only have the result of stricter laws being passed. >>

I hope so! I hope someone was taking names - and pictures! Did you notice that the majority of the people that you see in the LA protest were wearing white? How was that coordinated??

I don't know the answer - I know a number of hard-working people from Mexico who may or may not be legal. I've never asked them their legal status, because our contact was not one that required it. I respect them because they work hard to make good lives. One older man has 8 kids...he speaks no English although he understands it. He's earned a living all these years by running his own nursery of ground cover plants, and has put 6 of the 8 through college. I wasn't clear whether the college was 2 yr or 4 yr, but either is an accomplishment.
Initially, I'd suggest that we close the border. Use fence, troops or whatever it takes. Then address what we have at that point. If it's true that business _needs_ the labor, then adjust the immigrant levels higher. I think (not positive) I object to the worker permits proposal...I'd rather see us accept people - preferably whole families, not just the man - for potential citizenship. It seems to me that having guest workers is just asking for abuse of one sort or another. If we _don't_ have a labor problem, then we know that all that blame of business is just so much noise. Another alternative is to open the border, but issue national almost impossible to forge ID cards which would be necessary for jobs and welfare. Stop paying SS money to non-citizens (have to look this up, but you _can_ draw money without being a citizen if you lack income - SS Suplemental?) In other words, stop the tax supported goodies - then we could return to the days when the borders were open. Watch the IRS get involved _then_...all that under the table economy just _waiting_ to be taxed!!!
suek | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 4:16 pm | #

Great post, as always. Trackback didn't seem to work. Here's my take:

Shell game
Sissy Willis | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 5:15 pm | #

"Watch the IRS get involved _then_...all that under the table economy just _waiting_ to be taxed!!!"

If the Fair Tax Amendment is passed, the cash economy will be taxed and the IRS eliminated.
A win/win IMHO.
debass | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 5:38 pm | #

We are a nation of immigrants and at least 12 to 15 million of them are illegal. That number is increasing at a yearly rate of over a half MILLION.

Now, this is just a Sunday discussion to most Americans. They don't know and really can't be bothered with it since it doesn't affect them.

(Just like the war on terror or the Iraqi war doesn't affect them.)

But you should come on down here and live a while where there are illegals running (for real) every where. Running, hiding, stealing right along with trying to find work. They don't get a very nice reception here when they are caught, but its like trying to catch rats that look like all the rest of the rats in a room full of rats.

Most just work enough or steal enough to move on north or east.

To us living in the middle of this mess, we want action, strict actions taken now, not next year and damn sure not another "guest worker" program. The last two didn't work and they are unenforcable anyway. You know its bad when even the Illegals that have been here for years are turning in the newly arrived illegals.

That's the other part of the story. Once turned in, they recieve a summons and never show up for it or if they do (or are caught again) when their all expense paid trip back to Mexico or whereever is paid for by you and me, they just turn around and come back.

So...what are we to do. I say, after the second free trip. they go to jail on the border. A tent jail (like the one in Arizona) where they will be put to work 12 hours a day building the tallest, best fence ever built since the Chinese built their's.

I say the fence should have mine fields on the U.S. side and be a "shoot to kill" area as well.

Let anyone wanting to come visit, work or stay, do it the legal way or stay on your side of the border.

Work on making conditions better where you are, if you can't peacefully, then revolt and take responibility for your own faith and country.

The United States can't be the saviour of every poor person in the world, not even our part of the world. We have our own poor and downtrodden to take care of.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
Papa Ray | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 6:18 pm | #

The only long-term solution tends to be the hardest. Until Mexico's economy attracts its own most ambitious, they will work very hard at coming here.

That is not to say we should do nothing, of course. I lean toward some more dramatic and restrictive measures, myself. Raising the "cost," in the largest sense, of trying to illegally enter the US is important. But as long as Mexico has an inefficient, corrupt economy, smart Mexicans will look wistfully over the border.

I hope that massive deep-sea oil they just found in the Caribbean helps.
Assistant Village Idiot | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 6:35 pm | #

Papa Ray...
Like your idea! Specially the open air prison accomodations part! Be sure you include mugshots and fingerprints in those requirements! Think you'll like this link if you haven't been there already! (pasting once as it appears, and then again as a tinyurl because links have disappeared before and tinyurl worked!)

http://www.weneedafence.com/

http://tinyurl.com/fmuej
suek | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 7:57 pm | #

suek, thanks for posting link, yes I've already signed the petition and gave a donation. If fact I gave a second donation when I read about the Mexicans putting out Hit money on our law enforcement people.

Which brings up something most people don't know. Our Border Patrol is being shot at by drug runners and by Mexican Army and/or Mexican Police. Who is paying who and who is who doesn't matter one damn bit to me or my friends. We want them stopped and fenced in.

I could type an hour telling you the reasons why this situation is more dangerous to us than even the terrorist threat. Its not just drugs, gang members, criminals or the known effects on our education and medical systems, its much more than that.

I'll give you a hint. Texas is now a majority Mexican State. They are everywhere and in everything. They have actually taken over Texas.

Yea, we are a nation of immigrants and we will soon be a nation overrun by illegals who do nothing but take from our Nation and send it home.

None of these people by the way have taken "The Pledge of Allegiance to our Flag", altho if we gave them the chance most of them would, but it would not stop their behaviour or their allegiance.
Papa Ray | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 9:53 pm | #

Sanity, yours is an essay to admired.
I also understand the grievances aired in the comments.

What I ask is why a reasoned debate that produces answers is not underway?

Who or what stops the discussion from occurring? the legislation from debate? the undertaking of necessary actions?

Who benefits from the current stalemate? And why?
jg | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 10:04 pm | #

I, too, wondered about the presence of so many white tee-shirts in the crowd. Wondered more about the Mexican flags and chants of "Mexico, Mexico." These things made me wonder about the sincerity of the participants' desire to be "part of the American dream." it indicates to me that we have a new demographic to deal with - a politically significant mass of people who live in our country but do not consider themselves Americans, or even hyphenated Americans. Unlike the Dr's. European parents, these people do not consider American citizenship something to be proud of - they just don't care. They are not potential citizens, merely expats. They work here, they pay taxes here, but their first loyalty is to Mexico or wherever they came from. If the US didn't have a solid economy, they'd be working somewhere else.

I have no idea whether this is a real problem or just a new reality to which we have to adjust. But one thing the demonstrations...um, demonstrate is that the number of immigrants involved makes any sort of crackdown politically and logistically impossible. These folks are here to stay, whether we like it or not.
Sam | Email | Homepage | 03.26.06 - 10:48 pm | #

> If the Fair Tax Amendment is passed, the cash economy will be taxed and the IRS eliminated. A win/win IMHO.

debass, I like the concept, but, despite what they tell you, it does not -- repeat NOT -- currently tie to a repeal of the 16th amendment, which is what allows the FIT to occur.

As a result of that, while it calls for the abolition of all current legislation regarding the FIT, it does nothing whatsoever to prevent the re-establishment of it on top of the "Fair Tax" at some future date -- and, let's face it -- this is the government we're talking about. If it's not absolutely forbidden, it is going to happen (as a matter of fact, it may happen even if it is forbidden -- but at least then it requires a lot more tap dancing to make it so).

Considering the size of the national debt and the looming issue of social security financing, I think it is not the least difficult to see some problem occurring down the pike which might lead to a requirement to "re-establish the income tax -- just for the duration of the current emergency, you know...".

So: While I agree the notion of the FT is a potentially good one, I believe EVERYone should demand -- demand -- that it be directly tied inextricably to a repeal of the 16th Amendment or "forget about it".

Do NOT trust the government to exercise restraint.

If they could, we wouldn't be having this discussion -- the IRS would consist of 1000 part-time employees and the Federal Budget would be in the low double-digit billions.
OBloodyHell | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 2:13 am | #

Wow Doc! Another excellent post and such lively commentary...
I agree with everything you wrote and the poem you included is one of my all time favorites.
However I also appreciate the remarks of Papa Ray who represents I believe a growing American consensus. His concerns are indisputable and even tho he speaks with considerable experience and authority, I question the ultimate functionality and expense of building and maintaining a wall at U.S. borders. Would that really make a difference and at what cost?
One thing is for sure,until employers and consumers reject the goods and services provided by illegal immigrants, America will always have them.
ljmcinnis | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 2:59 am | #

We should secure our border's and crack down on businesses that hire illegal's.
This will mean a price increase on fruit's and veggie's, but that is more acceptable than the cost of providing free medical, educational, and social services as well as legal costs for a growing number of illegal's, who know how to exploit the system.
I believe we should withold federl tax dollar's from any state that support's illegal's in any way.
They are not only helping illegal's, bu are hurting American's economically, politically, and socially from within.
Cities like San Frncisco providing a 'sanctuary' for illegal's must be stopped.
Ben USN (Ret) | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 7:58 am | #

>>This will mean a price increase on fruit's and veggie's, but that is more acceptable than the cost of providing free medical, educational, and social services as well as legal costs for a growing number of illegal's, who know how to exploit the system.>>

Maybe...John and Ken (rabble rouser talk radio show in the LA area) commented about this last week, and the fact that when the bracero program was ended, the same threat was made. After the program ended, though, tomato growers developed a tomato that could be picked by machine. Labor was no longer a problem. Of course, the tomatoes aren't that great, but nothing beats home grown anyway! So, who knows? The threats are made, but it's still an unknown. It could be right, but I still say let's find out and then take whatever action we need to deal with the results. Maybe it would mean that we significantly raise the number of immigrant permits we allow for Mexicans - so ok...do it. But I still say, only accept those people who want to become _citizens_ of the US, not those who are just temporary workers. Bring _families_ in, not just single men.
By the way - check out Michelle Malkin's site (link below) today - she has pictures of some of the signs at the LA demonstration...these folks don't all _want_ citizenship - at least not US citizenship.

http://tinyurl.com/rjtl4
suek | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 1:10 pm | #

> After the program ended, though, tomato growers developed a tomato that could be picked by machine.

Suek, the problem is that said tomato has no flavor at all. They bred out the flavor in their search for the invulnerable.

Most Americans have never even tasted a real tomato.

About 20 years ago one wag noted that the average tomato can hit a wall moving at 20 miles an hour and suffer no damage, while regulations only make that a car is able to hit same wall at 5mph and suffer no damage. He said we should stop driving cars and drive tomatoes instead...
Oh Blutige Hölle | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 2:25 pm | #

I think the issue of immigration is comparatively simple:

1) Register them -- but until they have become citizens (keep the standards high), no bennies, but they get taxed all the same.

2) Tighten the borders, but let more through on temp visas. Make staying here on an expired temp visa something *particularly* undesirable -- like, oh, getting your balls removed for guys (Inhuman? Unfair? All they gotta do is LEAVE on time!)


The simple fact is that these people mostly do jobs which the "rest" of the people don't want to do -- ten years ago they were busing people into Boca Raton from Miami because the teenagers there wouldn't work in the McD's or BK, despite the fact that they were offering $10 an hour).

The terrorist threat is the only real reason for concern, as they can clearly slip through our porous borders.

We also ought to enlist the mexicans to help -- a permanent visa to anyone who calls our attention to any known terrorist (or demonstrable one) attemptting to slip into the country.
Oh Blutige Hölle | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 2:36 pm | #

Yeah...I call them "plastic" tomatoes. There's nothing quite like a right off the vine dead ripe tomato(preferably still warm from the summer sun). On the other hand, though, what you're talking about is the salad tomato...the Roma tomatoes are what they harvest by machine and use for tomato sauce, paste etc. I live in a "salad bowl" area - it's interesting to see the different types grown...there are the Romas - they're an on the ground bush like plant that just looks green from the top. All the tomatoes are underneath. They come in with machines and pull up all the vines to harvest the tomatoes. There are the salad tomatoes...acres and acres of stakes put in and vines tied up to them. These are picked by hand - I think they're the ones usually labeled "vine-ripened"(even when they're not!). Lastly come the hot house tomatoes - but I don't see those...they're in greenhouses even in our climate! I know they're there, but I don't see them.
Suek | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 2:43 pm | #

"Who benefits from the current stalemate? And why?"

Good question. I tend to think that our esteemed lawmakers are just too bloody timid to take a stand - on _anything_! If Tom Tancredo ran for president, I think I'd vote for him - not because I think he'd make a great president, but because he's not mealy-mouthed. That is really a relief. We don't even need new laws - all we need is to _enforce_ the ones we have now. Why isn't it being done!
Suek | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 2:47 pm | #

Here's another interesting read...

http://tinyurl.com/zfjhv
Suek | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 4:06 pm | #

Great post good Doctor. I wish I had your talent for writing. My talent's run more along a bull in a china shop.

What is terrible about this issue is we may find something much worse than illegal immigrants working here undocumented. We may see this great nation do something so inhumane it is unthinlable: we may see people rounded up and pulled from home, work and school because they do not have proper papers to work here.

Some yahoo in DC picks a number and claims this is all the guest workers we need. When that number is too low, a lot of good people who would provide excellent membership in our communities are determined to be 'criminals' because their job was not included in that all powerful number from DC.

And yet we let in all sorts of people who break our laws and sit in our jails because they did get a job with a number less than the magical number and we let them stay here.

That number means nothing, but people use it as pretends judge and jury to convict people of evil intent, with the penalty they should be frogged marched out of this country.

That damn number of allowable guest workers is not nearly as morally pure as people seem to use it.

It is disgusting.
AJStrata | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 9:08 pm | #

I think Malkin is over the top on this. I did not agree with her on the Dubai deal, much hsyterical chest pounding there... and I did not agree with her on her support for the Japanese Internment Camps in WW2. Talk about going out of your way to rub salt in a wound. More and more she is making the right looked unhinged. It is just one hissy fit after another.

I think that we should remember that we have an unemployment rate of about 4.8% and 1 in 20 of these illegals are working. The idea of physically transporting 11 million people out of the country is just ridiculous, if not impossible. That is the state of Ohio.

Besides that, these people are not in hiding. They are right out there in the open and most of them do not have any desire to turn the US into Mexico, quite the contrary.

I hope a compromise will be reached between the Senate and the president on this. I have lost all respect for the xenophobes in the House who seem bound and determined to demagogue the issue for personal political gain. This situation did not come about over night and it will take a long time to get a handle on it, but I think it can be done through a temporary worker program, increased border security and more law enforcement of existing law.

BTW Tancredo has said he will run on this himself in 2008 if he has to. When it was pointed out to him that the outcome of that could split the party and hand the WH to the Democrats his response was "So be it". So much for loyalty. At least Bush admits there is an immigration problem and wants to deal with it, I doubt very seriously if the Democrats would even try, after all Hillary said the GOP would make a criminal of Jesus. And yet the great champion of the anti immigration crew says So be it to her being the next president.
Terrye | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 11:32 pm | #

Papa Ray, they are not rats.
Terrye | Email | Homepage | 03.27.06 - 11:34 pm | #

Illegal immigration is the one-world corporatists way of undermining free-market capitalism. Not only is illegal immigration inhumane, it's un-American. We don't do slavery.
syn | Email | Homepage | 03.28.06 - 7:35 am | #

The one really legitimate question that I have seen raised is one from a radio caller yesterday...he was brought into the US illegally by his parents when he was 5 yrs old. He has never known any life other than life in the US - but he's illegal. He says there doesn't seem to be a way for him to "get legal". Of course, he _could_ join the military, but that could be the only way other than going back to Mexico, which for him is unrealistic.
Those that are here and have been for many years even though they're illegal are a problem...but _certainly_ we should be able to stop more from coming in as a first step! After the inflow is stopped, we can deal with those that are here.
suek | Email | Homepage | 03.28.06 - 12:27 pm | #

Unity and Diversity, "core culture" and "multi-culture", must balance each other.

Unity without Diversity (core culture overwhelmes all) gives you the New Soviet Man.

Diversity without Unity (multi-culture overwhelms core culture) gives you Yugoslavia and Rwanda.
Ken | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 7:31 pm | #

So your grandmother was first a lawbreaker (she stowed away) and most probably an illegal immigrant. I wonder how was her knowledge of English, what kind of food she cooked? burgers and french fries? i doubt it. probably meals that she felt were culturaly superior..And your people were dumped on and discriminated against just like your doing to the Mexicans now. You don't like them demonstrating? Why don't you do a column on the Italien anti-defamation league? Unless your name is something like "walks with the eagle" you've no business trying to keep anyone out of America in the name of "pure american culture"
revdocken | Email | Homepage | 04.02.06 - 10:24 am | #

For your info, Mr. know-it-all (aka revdocken); My grandmother learned English within a year and became a citizen of the US in record time. She couldn't wait to become an American and considered it one of the greatest achievements of her life. In fact, she never went back to Italy again. I don't know where you got the idea that I do anything in the name of "pure american culture", but basically, you can get stuffed. Your ignorance is showing and its not a pretty sight.
Dr. Sanity | Email | Homepage | 04.02.06 - 11:38 am | #