Dr. Sanity

I sent this to Borders @
Customer Care
===========
regarding:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ar.../ a163611S00.DTL

You have now guaranteed that I will not be using your outlets anytime in the next several years.

This is not a SAFETY issue. THIS IS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE.

If people were threatening you with firebombing because you carried the writings of Martin Luther King, would you crumble?

If they told you they were going to ruin your stores because you carried a book critical of Bush, would you refuse to carry it?

SELF-CENSORSHIP is far, far more dangerous than CENSORSHIP.

I hope you go bankrupt. You have no business being a bookseller.
Oh Blutige Hölle | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 9:20 am | #

Good for you, OBH. I have done something similar. It is bad enough that our academic institutions have decided to support shari'a, that our bookstores would support those who want to stifle freedom of speech is unbelievable.
Dr. Sanity | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 9:23 am | #

The biggest threat to freedom in this country is the left who want to censor anything that hurts anyone's feelings. They have already taken over our so-called "institutes of higher learning" and are now training all the little K-12 minds to accept the leftist version of shari'a. Your are 100% correct, doc. If we don't aggressively treat this disease that the left has given us, it will surely be fatal to us and the values we hold dear.
LLB | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 9:34 am | #

No offense LLB, but the biggest threat to our freedom in this country is a political system where those with the money and the power (think Corporate America, for example) influence (buy) their way into making the rules the rest of us have to follow.
Robert | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 9:43 am | #

As usual the PC crowd are hypocritical in their professed bravery to 'stand up' against 'censorship' in the form of Catholic or Protestant Christians who beg to differ with a book or movie....but crumble the moment some thug really threatens their lives... in other words, they're brave whem bravery is not even a question, and cowards when bravery is called for.
John | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 9:54 am | #

If only there were a predominantly Islamic country or two where we could invade, set up governmental systems under which people could truly be free and relegate Shari'a to the private sphere.

Oh. Wait.
Lex | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 10:07 am | #

John: As usual the PC crowd are hypocritical in their professed bravery to 'stand up' against 'censorship' in the form of Catholic or Protestant Christians who beg to differ with a book or movie....but crumble the moment some thug really threatens their lives

Roderick: LOL, John who has threatened our lives?

A few two-bit terrorists do not a religion make.

I guess you haven't heard that MO wants to make Christainity the state's 'majority religion'.

As for the cartoons, I don't think they should be published because they are very disrespectful to other persons' religion.

I guess you missed what happened to the tv show "Book of Daniel"
It was cancelled because a lot of people called the local tv stations and voiced their displeasure about the way Jesus was portrayed in the story.
Roderick | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 10:36 am | #

You know, it sounds all nice and dandy to blame everything bad that happens in this world on the PC crowd, the left, the media, etc.. However, in this case, I have not seen a single leftwing site where they have justified the suppression of these cartoons in the name of political correctness.
Maybe the sites I visit trend towards a more libertarian oriented bent, and that accounts for it. But still. Sometimes you gotta question whether or not your assumptions are not belied by the actual facts.
shingles | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 10:38 am | #

Sorry Lex, but this was a war started by Bill Clintin- and a justified one at that.

"First, we must be prepared to use force again if Saddam takes threatening actions, such as trying to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction or their delivery systems, threatening his neighbors, challenging allied aircraft over Iraq or moving against his own Kurdish citizens."

"...And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.

Because we're acting today, it is less likely that we will face these dangers in the future."

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/s...ts/ clinton.html
sigmund, carl and alfred | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 10:40 am | #

It's all Clinton's fault!
shingles | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 10:43 am | #

This is an unpalatable reality.

Why is it unpalatable?

I'll tell you why. It's because you are worried about killing them.

And when I say them, I mean muslims. All muslims or as many as it takes.

And why are you worried about killing?

I'll tell you why. It's because you have some confusion about the immotal holy soul. Yours and theirs.

So we come again to religion.

Religion is the problem.

But it's your religion that prevents a solution to a problem caused by theirs.

Religion, tsk, tsk, tsk.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 10:45 am | #

"They have already taken over our so-called "institutes of higher learning" and are now training all the little K-12 minds to accept the leftist version of shari'a."

Which is why the number of self-identified conservatives is consistently double that of self-identified liberals. Seems like all this PC-ness is actually creating MORE conservatives.

Statements like the above just end up making conservatives look silly.
shingles | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 11:00 am | #

we shall overcome.
herpes | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 11:04 am | #

Sick religion that comes directly from the middle ages?? You mean, like fundamentalist christianity? There are plenty of sick bastards in America who want a theocracy, want to execute sinners, and so forth. Anyone who talks about 'Western Culture' but fails to grasp the basic tenets of enlightenment rationalism--which is to say all evangelical christians--should have no voice in the public debate in this country.
Jaybreel | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 11:39 am | #

Wow, the moonbats really came out to play on this one. Did Dr. S get linked to DailyDross again?
Michael Andreyakovich | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 11:54 am | #

Clinton acted well within established international law. And even if he hadn't, how does that claim address my question?
Lex | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 11:58 am | #

"this sick religion that comes to us straight from the middle ages"

How ironic, Christianity has in the past at least had no problem being as bloody as Islam is today, and Christianity predates Islam by about 600 years.
Fred | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 12:51 pm | #

Resolved: Islam is for sickies.

A proposition I shall be happy to defend...

Although it seems self-evident.

Regards
Good Ole Charlie | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 12:56 pm | #

Re. the Borders and the blasphemous shelf placement of the Koran.
How do we know this story is true?
Its based on a letter from a "Borders employee". Which reminds me of the whole Christmas stamp nonsense a while back, which rapidly ping pong-ed around the rightosphere and then turned out not to be true.

This might indeed be true, and if so, all involved should be roundly condemned and forced to listen to Celine Dion at high volume. However, I find it revealing that without any confirmation of this story's veracity, you immediately assume that it is true, mainly because you WANT it to be true. Because it proves your point.
shingles | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 1:34 pm | #

How ironic, Christianity has in the past at least had no problem being as bloody as Islam is today, and Christianity predates Islam by about 600 years.
Fred | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 12:51 pm | #

Emphasis added.

Christianity has grown out of its bloody period. We haven't had a major religious war in the West since the 17th century. That is what distinguishes us from Islam. Because of this key difference, any arguments for moral equivelency fall flat.
JonBuck | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 2:06 pm | #

"JayBreel" or whatever the hell fake name you picked, libtard:

As a God-loving, patriotic fundamentalist Christian who loves everyone, just doesn't LIKE everyone, you don't know what the hell you are talking about!

Talk about sick and prejudiced! You people reveal your true selves with each passing hatepost.

Dave D.
Dave | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 3:35 pm | #

So, the leftist's want to censor Christian's who exercise their right of free speech, but not Muslim's (and their supporters) who actually burn cars, embassy's, businesses, and kill people.
This post is about Islam and censorship, and the first thing out of the lefties is PC history of Christianity, or they called in and said they don't like a blasphemous TV show (which NBC can still air, regardless, but it was getting abysmal ratings anyway).
These remarks by the left, once again show where they stand, and it's not on the side of liberty and freedom.
Ben USN (Ret) | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 4:29 pm | #

Fred and JohnBuck:

Can only hope that it doesn't take Islam another 600 years to get as far as Roman Catholic Church has today. Would be pleased to see, in my lifetime, Islam reformed to extent that a little illicit clerical hanky-panky is WORST we can expect from them.

But, then, what are the odds?
Rorschach | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 4:32 pm | #

Addendum:

RCC grew out of its kill-everyone-who-doesn't-think-like-us phase. Took couple centuries, but eventually got through their thick skulls that wasn't best way to carry out business of Almighty.

Islam, being 600 years younger, is still stuck in that phase. And unlike Catholic Church, Islam would rather self-destruct than mellow out.
Rorschach | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 4:34 pm | #

You know what? you are correct about Islam and the threat it poses to Western SECULAR societies. Here in America, we face a similar threat from within - Christians who wish to establish their own religious doctrines as law. Bashing liberals doesn't stop the spread of Islamic fascism because liberals aren't the catalyst for its resurgence.

this ain't the crusades people, this is an enemy who is happy to DIE to achieve victory. your religious convictions will never be that strong.

Who is intimately involved with the Wahabi-ist regime of Saudi Arabia and cousin Bandar? Gee, looks like the BUSH CLAN... Can women vote in Saudi? Drive? Where did the majority of the 9/11 hijackers come from? SAUDI ARABIA.

Again, I agree with the premise - but the political leaders you hold in such esteem are truly in bed with these nutjobs.

Saddam was a secular dictator. Now what do we have over there?
jake | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 6:36 pm | #

This makes me an ex Borders customer. They sell both Mein Kampf and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Which might just be a sign that they are anti-censorship if not for this latest. In this case, it just makes them bigots.

They will be getting a letter from me.
Defense Guy | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 6:38 pm | #

Amazing how quick this thread about Borders putting on the burqa turned into Christian-bashing...
Ken | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 7:11 pm | #

It's amazing to me that we have a company that is sacrificing freedom of speech to fear & Intimidation by islamists and a number of people on this thread would rather rant about what "fundementalist christians" are doing or have done in the last 600 years. One question, dear readers, do you believe in freedom of speech or do you not? Please check out the magazine that is being censored.

http://www.freeinquiry.com/

A magazine about secular humanism for Christs sake! No pun intended.....

Has Borders censored this magazine because they are equally critical of Christian thought? Any takers? Can any of you liberals motivate your brain stems enough to explain to me why some cartoons of the prophet Mohammed should make any difference on whether Borders stands bravely on the 1st principle of our Bill of Rights or why it decided to crawl off to a corner to adjust it's cloak of "self-protection".

You liberals are not stupid, so quick acting like it, because if your prior posts are the best argument you have for defending Borders decision, then I have to conclude that current liberal thought is best defined in the phrase - "a mind is a terrible thing to waste."

When Lutherans riot in the streets because Martin Luther is perceived as a sheep lover, when Catholics slit agnostics throats for renouncing their faith, and when Protestants stone women for showing an ankle, get back to me with your arguments, because until the above happens, you are blowing smoke out your a**.

And by the way, I'm a libertarian Christian, not that theres anything wrong with that. (With apologies to Seinfeld)
Doug | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 7:52 pm | #

> No offense LLB, but the biggest threat to our freedom in this country is a political system where those with the money and the power (think Corporate America, for example) influence (buy) their way into making the rules the rest of us have to follow.

What, Robert, you mean like the speech codes on just about every US Campus that wouldn't stand for 60 seconds in the corporate world??

Yeah, I can see exactly where you're comin' from...

"Planet Ten", is it, John Robert?

WHACK!
OBloodyHell | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 10:56 pm | #

> A few two-bit terrorists do not a religion make.

Yeah, yet those "few two-bit terrorists" seem to be causing all sorts of problems for the nation of Iraq -- blowing up children, cutting off the heads of pacifists -- that sort of thing...

They seem to be causing all manner of problems for France, burning cars, buildings, etc.

They are creating all sorts of difficulties for Denmark -- making death threats, killing people in cold blood...

They keep creating issues in Scandanavia, where incidents of gang rape by roving bands of Islamic thugs -- sorry, "a few two bit terrorists", my mistake... -- have jacked up the rate of multiple sexual assaults by a factor that is simply not to be believed.

> As for the cartoons, I don't think they should be published because they are very disrespectful to other persons' religion.

Well, then, do us ALL a favor and move to FUCKING EUROPE where that sort of shit flies. This is AMERICA.

"A function of free speech under our system of government is to INVITE DISPUTE. It may indeed best serve its high purposes when it induces a condition of unrest, creates dissatisfaction with conditions as they are, or even stirs people to anger. Speech is often provocative and challenging. It may strike at prejudices and preconceptions and have profound unsettling effects as it presses for acceptance of an idea."
- Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas -

You see, at various times in our history, the notions of birth control, women's suffrage, slavery, civil rights -- all have "offended" one group or another.

Fortunately, the efforts to suppress or hide these ideas failed, and America is a better place for that fact.

The problem you fail to grasp is the obvious one -- who, exactly, do you trust enough to give them the right to say, "This may not be said"?

Oh, the vorpal pen goes:
Whack-whack-whackity-whack!
OBloodyHell | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 11:08 pm | #

> Sick religion that comes directly from the middle ages?? You mean, like fundamentalist christianity? There are plenty of sick bastards in America who want a theocracy

Yep, there are a percentage.

You know what? They've got even less of a chance than the Islamic Goons.

After all, the entirety of the Left in America, and all of Europe, stand against them.

The same clearly cannot be said for Islam -- The Left, etc., **most definitely** stand FOR them.
OBloodyHell | Email | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 11:12 pm | #

Ya know, I had something relevant to say about this whole Borders thing, but the morons with their "Christianity is just like Islam" crap have ruined it for me.

When we have Presbyterians marching into preschools with six pounds of C-4 in their three-piece and shouting "Praise Jesus" before they hit the detonator, when we have hundreds of thousands of girls in prisons for "immoral acts," when we have pogroms and purges and inquisitions, and when we have time travelers delivering nukes to 12th-century popes, then you'll have a point.

But that isn't happening, you don't have a point, you're just spiteful little trolls who would rather derail an internet discussion than have a civilization. Which is unbelievably pathetic.

How do you get up in the morning if all you have to live for is being against something? And something so innocuous?

I guess it's easy to pick on Christians, since they don't kidnap you and cut your head off when you criticize them.
Merovign | Email | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 12:02 am | #

I only posted that once. I swear. WTH?
Merovign | Email | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 12:07 am | #

Nice case of Bush Derangement syndrome there, Jake!
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 12:18 am | #

YOU want to know the ultimate irony of this PC rejection of the enlightenment principle of free speech?

NOT all Muslim's observe the prohibition against depicting Mohammid. Shia's in Iraq for instance freely depict him. Why not? Because unlike Sunni's, they do not strictly obeserve the haditha, the collected sayings of Mohammid. In fact, on the streets of the capital of the "Islamic Republic of Iran" you can buy picture postcards - POSTCARDS! - of the prophet Mohammid.

NOW see who looks pig ignorant. The speech-supressors themselves
Orson Olson | Email | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 5:32 am | #

> As for the cartoons, I don't think they should be published because they are very disrespectful to other persons' religion.

Well, then, do us ALL a favor and move to FUCKING EUROPE where that sort of shit flies. This is AMERICA.

O bloody hell! Where to start …

1. You don't understand the basics of our constitution, its history, and how it works.

A quick ninth-grade civics lesson: Our rights are good against the government. the first amendment as originally envision, protected an individual from censure by -- and this is important -- the government. Originally, you had no "rights" against individuals -- rights exist to protect the individual from government -- in fact, only the federal government. The states were originally free to abuse its citizens to the extent that the state's constitution allowed. True story. Of course, the 14th amendment changed all of this, but the fundamentals remain.

Let me give you an example. You come in to my bar and start spouting off about the Redsox. I tell you to get the hell out, and you leave shamed. I have not violated your right to free speech. In fact, what is funny here, is that I am the one who has just exercised the right of free speech in this vignette, albeit negatively -- i.e. I exercised my right as the owner of the bar to exclude opinions therein I find offensive (with certain exceptions not met here).

2. You have a malformed sense of irony.

You do realize that it is Borders in the ongoing discussion who is exercising its right to expression in the merchandize that it carries or does not carry. This may be cowardly, it may be shortsighted, it may be a lot of things, but that choice is not infringing on the free expression of Free Inquiry by keeping it from Borders' shelves. Not an iota of text or opinion is changed. Borders has chosen to express itself by distancing itself from the magazine.

Of course, in our capitalist society, you are free to walk to the next newsstand and purchase a copy there, but again, this is a separate issue. You could go, and buy all of the copies you can, and you can burn them in your backyard if you choose, and you could go to bed tonight secure in the knowledge that you have not violated the any rights … unless you are the mayor … and you are using public funds … but you get the idea.

The problem you fail to grasp is the obvious one -- who, exactly, do you trust enough to give them the right to say, "This may not be said"?

Again, where to start …

They have the right because they own the place. That's what gives them the right. They are the bartender here. They haven't said "This may not be said." They have said that "This must not be said IN MY FUCKING STORE! Go somewhere else if you don't like it!" But of course, they are likely to cave to the hubbub stirred up by their business decision …

Try again.
Saltmeat | Email | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 2:47 pm | #

Salt

You are right of course, regarding the censorship issue. Borders has every right to sell what they wish to sell.

Of course I am well within my rights to call them bigots for their selectiveness in which materials they find too offensive to stock and enablers of violence by showing that threats of violence are the way to get what you want in this world.

What a great company. Imagine what a better world we will all live in when other groups start adopting the practice of using violence to get their way. Violence, it gets things done.
Defense Guy | Email | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 3:39 pm | #

DG -

Here, here! Make signs. Picket. Teach them the power of the almighty dollar. The intersection of capitalism and liberal democracy.

On a separate note: I like "Violence, it gets things done," for a moto. It can scare craven booksellers, and establish democracy in far off lands.

This is nothing new. It is the oldest trick in the book. We would be as important as we are without our big toys that go boom?
Saltmeat | Email | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 4:25 pm | #

Let's pretend that there are differences between the threats of violence against private interest and the use of violence as an extension of foreign policy. Like we are capable of nuance or something.

You are, again, right that without violence none of the western free nations would be free. So, you know, kudos on that.
Defense Guy | Email | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 5:08 pm | #

The issue of reforming Islam and its relations to the state will soon come up more clearly.

The "national sovereignty" protection that states have are under some threat from Human Rights issues. The resolution will be that those states which do NOT accept free religion and fairly free speech, will NOT be granted "national sovereignty" protection. Meaning they will be fair game to be invaded.

If there is a coalition of willing to do so.
Tom Grey - Liberty Dad | Email | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 7:39 pm | #

I would be careful with the implications that Islam itself is what in inimical to our civilization. The same arguments could be made against the Judeo-Christian culture that our modern civilization evolved from.

People were forced to convert by the sword under Charlemange.

And I'm sure you know that in Spain, Jews were forced to convert to Christianity. And those who were accused of secretly still practicing as Jews were often burned to death. Very little different fromt he current situation in Afganistan.

Go read some of the laws in the Old Testiment. Wearing clothing made of mixed fabrics was a stoning offense.

On the other hand, during Islam's golden age, they were extremly tolerant of other religions and cultures and encouraged the developemnt of new mathematics and sciences while Europe was in the Dark Age.

The West has evolved well past these religious extremities, I think, to a new height of civilization, while some Muslin countries are reentering dark ages. But that says nothing about the underlying religions, only the cultures practicing them.
peteathome | Email | Homepage | 04.02.06 - 7:56 am | #

Commenting by HaloScan.com