The cartoon gets it right.

But why are both riflemen left-handed?


.
The Machine | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 1:44 pm | #

Hot damn! We really are resonating with the same nonlocal cosmic attractor. "I Don't Mean to Start a Rumpus, But What's With the Left's Broken Moral Compass?"

http://onecosmos.blogspot.com/20...rumpus- but.html
Gagdad Bob | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 1:46 pm | #

"They're not bad - they're just drawn that way..."
JLawson | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 2:02 pm | #

You are presuming a capability, Dr Sanity, not always in evidence.
sigmund, carl and alfred | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 2:04 pm | #

I love the left handed comment, I hadn't even noticed that part before.
Fistandantalus | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 2:46 pm | #

One of my commenters yesterday wisely asked: if the two captured soldiers are no big deal - if it is disproportionate that Israel be so upset about them - then why doesn't Hezbollah just give them back? Hmm?
Assistant Village Idiot | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 3:02 pm | #

Pretty good.
drdisaia | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 3:27 pm | #

AVI -

Think of Schrodinger's cat - right now their health (or lack of it) is indeterminate. And that state is about the only one that'll allow Hezbollah any wiggle room.

If they're publically proclaimed as alive, it becomes Hezbollah's responsibility to KEEP them alive.

If they're dead, then not only does Hezbollah lose a BIG bargaining chip, but the world's going to be notably unsympathetic toward them when the Israeli tanks come a'knockin' at their front door. They will have screwed themselves royally.

And I, for one, will have zip as far as sympathy for them goes.

J.
JLawson | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 4:21 pm | #

Do you really think that such a complex moral situation can be reduced to cartoon?

On second thought, it's not complex at all.

The deliberate targeting of civilians in Lebanon by the IDF is a war crime. The deliberate targeting of civilians in Haifa by Hezbollah is a war crime. I don't see why either instance is excusable.
Josh | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 6:20 pm | #

Then Josh, you are an idiot. If you know anything about Israel, they keep their military installations as far away as possible from civilians. Whereas Hizballah and Hamas purposefully hide within civilian populations using them as human shields, as a propaganda tactic for pacifists such as yourself and the willing liberal MSM. If you know anything about history of the region, the 'diplomatic' line for over 30 years has been "Israel, you will get peace if you give up land (namely S Lebanon and the Gaza strip)." Well, Israel gave up the land, and see how they have been rewarded? It is clear that Syria, Iran and all the Islamofascists in the region will only except the entire elimination of Israel. Nothing less. That will never happen. So the only possible course of action available is the complete destruction of Hizballah, Hamas, and all the other terrorist thugs in the region. It is good to see this time around that the 'civilized' Arab neighbors finally 'get it'. Let's hope it gets done quickly.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 7:00 pm | #

"Then Josh, you are an idiot."

no, u r.

"If you know anything about Israel, they keep their military installations as far away as possible from civilians. Whereas Hizballah and Hamas purposefully hide within civilian populations using them as human shields, as a propaganda tactic for pacifists such as yourself and the willing liberal MSM."

I'm not a pacifist, and everything you just said was more or less true. I'm not saying that Hezbollah or Hamas is morally superior to Israel. I am saying that Israel often targets civilians unnecessarily, and that that is wrong.

"If you know anything about history of the region, the 'diplomatic' line for over 30 years has been "Israel, you will get peace if you give up land (namely S Lebanon and the Gaza strip)." Well, Israel gave up the land, and see how they have been rewarded? It is clear that Syria, Iran and all the Islamofascists in the region will only except the entire elimination of Israel. Nothing less."

Yep. Which justifies Israeli targeting of civilians how?

"So the only possible course of action available is the complete destruction of Hizballah, Hamas, and all the other terrorist thugs in the region. It is good to see this time around that the 'civilized' Arab neighbors finally 'get it'. Let's hope it gets done quickly."

I would love to see Hezbollah and Hamas eliminated, but if you think that any military strategy that includes targeting masses of civilians is going to succeed in doing so you clearly misunderstand the nature of these movements. If Hezbollah doesn't gain more political power and support as a result of Israel's latest military action I'll eat my hat.

People don't like when you blow up their houses and kill their neighbors. People tend to dislike that so much that they end up supporting the party with the most hardline stance against whoever's doing the bombing. Historical examples of this effect are plentiful. The London blitz didn't make the English people want to surrender, but resulted in opposite feelings of increased hatred and resolve to defeat Germany.
Josh | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 8:17 pm | #

I would love to see Hezbollah and Hamas eliminated, but if you think that any military strategy that includes targeting masses of civilians is going to succeed in doing so you clearly misunderstand the nature of these movements.

Actually, Hezbollah is pretty darn lucky that Israel isn't targeting masses of civilians. They aren't even hitting rockets which are stored in people's houses. (Only going after them when they can reasonably limit the surrounding damage).

If I were in charge, then you would see targeting of masses of civilians. (Remember, Israels job is not to protect the Palistinians, Israel's job is to protect Israel.) Palistine and Lebanon would be nuked/carpet bombed into the ground, until Israel becomes and island! You have a hard time supporting an insurgency when the country that you operate out of is a sea of craters.
Aaron | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 8:49 pm | #

If I were in charge, there would be a sea of glass visible from space over there by now.

Josh pushes moral relativism to absolute limits, never mind who killed civilians, and lots of them, FIRST. Never mind that Israel has the capability to make that sea of glass happen yet has shown remarkable restraint over the years. Never mind that Israel clobbered the hell out of three of those countries years ago yet did not occupy oil-rich nations that they had thoroughly defeated in battle. All they want is the right to exist in peace. All the surrounding Muslim nations want, and they have stated as much many times, is the annihilation of Israel and all her people.

Josh, you are on the losing side.


.
The Machine | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 9:00 pm | #

Just how the hell am I a moral relativist? I'm the one saying that the killing of civilians is always wrong no matter who does it.

Is the point of your post that killing civilians is OK because Israel is in a morally superior position then its terrorist adversaries? If so, the who is the moral relativist here?

Once again, I'm mostly on the side of Israel, who has every right to track down and kill/capture the terrorists who attack her. However, it is wrong for Israel to deliberately target civilian populations in the process, which it is quite clearly doing in Lebanon.
Josh | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 9:12 pm | #

Josh, how is it clear that Israel is targeting "innocent" civilians? As the cartoon implies (and is 100% spot on, btw), these subhuman Hezbolla fighters use human shields. It is up to you to 100% prove that Israel is targeting INNOCENT civilians. Those civilain deaths are the result of Hezbolla's cowardice.
HappyInTheMiddle | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 9:31 pm | #

Josh - You are confused. The Israelis never, ever target civilians for the sake of targeting civilians. That is what Hezbollah and Hamas do. The Israelis target terrorists who -- in their depravity -- hide behind civilians.
GnuCarSmell | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 9:37 pm | #

Josh, how exactly is Israel "targeting civilians"? There is a huge difference between accidentaly killing civilian that happen to be in an area where terrorists have been hiding weapons andthe intentional killing civilians simply because they are civilians.

I can already hear you complaining that there is no difference, that a dead civilian is a dead civilian. While that is indeed true, the intention is the important distinction. Here's an example that's a little removed but I think can illustrate effectively.

Let's say that we're at a baseball game, I'm up to bat and you're in the stands. You're turned to the side and not watching the field as I hit a ball that accidentaly hits you in the temple, killing you. Now lets rewind and instead I walk over to the stands and hit you over the head repeatedly with a bat, killing you. The results of the two actions are the same; you're dead. But morally, ethically and legally they are two completely different scenarios. That's the difference between the two sides in this war.
Jeff | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 9:37 pm | #

One protecting the innocent and one hiding behind the innocent. So true.

The blood of the innocent Lebanese who have died in this war is on the hands of terrorists who started it, even if it was an Israeli weapon that killed them. The Jihadists have given Israel no option except attack or surrender. Surrender is out of the question.

Only a fool wants war. Only a coward avoids it at all costs.
Shoprat | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 9:47 pm | #

But the Israelis are clearly hitting targets that they have no good reason to think are Hezbollah.
These are Lebanese apartment buildings. I wonder how many of those apartments contained something militarily important. The reason they were bombed is because they are in a Shiite area of Beirut, where Hezbollah draws much of its support. How many innocent people lost their homes simply for living in the wrong part of town?

Unintentional civilian casualties are one thing, but what Israel is doing is quite another. You seem to like analogies. What if there was a crowd of 20 people, one of whom was a terrorist. Is it ethical to gun down everyone, killing 19 innocent people? Ah, but the terrorist was using the crowd as a shield so it must be A-OK. The Israeli approach is comparable. They know that Hezbollah has been active in a particular village, so they proceed to bomb the entire village.

Israel is also attacking infrastructure that is vital to the civilian population. Bridges, airports, and power plants, among other things, have been reduced to rubble. What value did these buildings have to Hezbollah except in the most general sense? The loss of these things have inflicted incredible suffering on the Lebanese people.
Josh | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 10:00 pm | #

As a psychiatrist, I find your manipulation of psychiatry to promote your ideology/politics very irresponsible
Its a very fine line between when you start pathologizing your enemies and from becoming like the psychiatrists of the ex USSR and China, who "treated" political dissidents.
You do a great disservice to psychiatry
I wonder how someone who is filled with so much anger and hate can even function as a competent doctor, yet alone a psychiatrist.
You just re enforce the stereo type in the medical community that people who go into psychiatry are a little unstable themselves.
I wish you INSIGHT...
lycanthropy | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 10:03 pm | #

Josh:

What if there was a crowd of 20 people, one of whom was a terrorist. Is it ethical to gun down everyone, killing 19 innocent people? Ah, but the terrorist was using the crowd as a shield so it must be A-OK. The Israeli approach is comparable.

What you're doing here is blowing the context. And it's because you have a simple and guileless, mindset.

You do not realize that Hizballah has started a war. And the context is war, not law enforcement, not anything but war.

In war you destroy the enemy, you don't arrest him, you are not concerned with justice per se,but only victory. Wictory, so that the awful thing war, can end.

The people in and around hizballah get more than fair warning, and they have had time to know hizballah's nature as well.

So they are not in any way completely innocent.

But regardless of this, their deaths fall to the responsibility of hizballah for starting the war.

War's a big shitty bitch, that's just the way it is.

Credulous idiots like you prolong wars. And that's bad.

A mind like yours so pitifully weak is something I don't expect to correct or effect in a paragraph. But if I can break you a little, that's fine too.

Because the truth is, you should shut up or be shut up. Either way is alright in such a serious situation as a world war.

You are, in fact, a menace to all good people.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 10:24 pm | #

Josh:

Obviously, Israeli intelligence determined that those apartment buildings housed key Hizballah members. Israel didn't blow up those buildings just for the hell of it.

Terrorists deliberately surround themselves with civilians in a thoroughly cynical effort to ensure that there will be civilian casualties when their positions are attacked. The terrorists can then use those civilian casualties for propaganda purposes.

It's sad that so many people in the West are so eager to buy into the propaganda; that they are so willing to believe the worst about Israel, America, and Western civilization in general. I guess we can chalk it up to decades of Marxist indoctrination in our educational system.

Back to Hizballah: It's one thing to callously murder enemy civilians. History is replete with examples of that behavior. But I can't easily recall any culture that welcomes and even facilitates civilian deaths on one's own side--just to make the other side look bad.
rickl | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 10:24 pm | #

On the subject of the left-handed soldiers:

If the Israeli soldier is firing an M16A2, the weapon has an integral brass deflector to keep the hot brass from hitting left-handed firers. Earlier versions of the M16 are able to accept a clip-on brass deflector for left-handed firers.

As for the Palestinian Arab with his AK-series rifle, I don't know of any brass deflectors to protect lefties from being hit by hot brass. As far as I can tell, this lack, in this case, is all to the good.
AuricTech | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 10:31 pm | #

The cartoon makes an excellent point, Dr. Sanity, and it's evident you have aptly named yourself.

Your commentor named "Josh" is part of the problem; not in any way part of the sollution. It's a shame that so many people in this country do not understand that if Israel doesn't win this, we will have to. And those who don't stand with Israel stand with the enemy.

Blessings and thanks.
Gayle | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 10:32 pm | #

Josh;
If these civillians were all that innocent they would have taken steps to either rid themselves of Hizbollah through political/social action or gottne the hell away from them. The fact is that these civillians support and encourage the Hizzies argues powerfully against their innocence.
I live in a gang infested area. I act against the gangs when I can. When a gang thing is going down I make a point to be elsewhere. Failure to do otherwise is to be complicit in their undertakings. And many of these civillians are complicit. Plus, Josh, I bet you didn't know that on occasion in war accidents happen and ordinance lands at other than its intended target. No, really, its true. Not every civillian death is a deliberate act on the part of the Israelis, which stands in stark contrast to Hizbollah.
Tamquam Leo Rugiens | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 10:36 pm | #

Josh:

Israel is also attacking infrastructure that is vital to the civilian population. Bridges, airports, and power plants, among other things, have been reduced to rubble. What value did these buildings have to Hezbollah except in the most general sense? The loss of these things have inflicted incredible suffering on the Lebanese people.

War is hell. Didn't we destroy German and Japanese infrastructure in World War II? General Sherman likewise did the same to Confederate infrastructure in the Civil War.

When we bombed a German aircraft plant, no doubt there were assembly line workers who became unemployed, if not dead.
rickl | Email | Homepage | 07.21.06 - 10:46 pm | #

There's a certain species of argumentative troll, who doesn't really care about the morality of the arguement they're putting forth - what matters is a perception of 'winning' the arguement in their mind. Nothing else matters.

And to that end, they'll go to interesting lengths. Establish a false premise ('that no matter what, civilians must be protected' for example) and then argue that, since civilians have been killed by Israel, the IDF is no better than (and arguably worse than, because they should KNOW better) Hezbollah and Hamas. And as such, they ought to pull back and rebuild what they've broken.

All the while they ignore that Hezbollah and Hamas have ALWAYS targeted Israeli civilians, and have mastered the use of human shields...

Why can't they look at the situation and see which side is trying to AVOID targeting civilians, and which side is intentionally targeting them? Which side is warning civilians, and which side is trying to slaughter them?

Yeah, I know - 'good' and 'evil' are such old-fashioned, nebulous concepts that they can't be understood by today's 'nuanced' thinkers...

But I'm thinking in the end, if the Jihadis get their way and the US goes Islam and Shari'a - it won't matter one bit whether the folks arguing against the WoT were against it or for it. Because they're infidels, they'd be given the choice to convert or die.

Do you think that at that point they'd understand what they were arguing against?

J.
JLawson | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 12:09 am | #

rumaging around in the WTC ashes
for the "peace dividend" still,Josh?


9/10 is gone...time to MoveOn.org
gumshoe | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 12:16 am | #

JLawson -

somebody once called them
"mouth warriors".
gumshoe | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 12:19 am | #

Very well put JL. The November election is very important! Even though I think the current Republicans are incompentent, they are 500% better than the alternative. Think carefully in November, and please vote!
Mark | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 1:21 am | #

> What if there was a crowd of 20 people, one of whom was a terrorist. Is it ethical to gun down everyone, killing 19 innocent people? Ah, but the terrorist was using the crowd as a shield so it must be A-OK. The Israeli approach is comparable. They know that Hezbollah has been active in a particular village, so they proceed to bomb the entire village.

Not at all, Josh -- you said it yourself, it's a shiite village where they draw much of their support.

So let's try your analogy again, but accurate:

What if there was a crowd of 20 people -- one of whom is a terrorist, three of whom have given him help finding arms, five of whom have given him money to buy arms, seven of whom have openly advocated for his actions, nine of whom have agreed quietly that what he is doing is perfectly ok, 12 of whom have never said a bad thing about what he does to anyone -- oh, and three of whom have spoken ill of his actions, but despite knowing what he does remains in the crowd -despite the unquestionable bad association? One guy is, well, truly innocent -- he's 12 years old and has to stay with his parents even though HE thinks it's incredibly stupid.

(in case it wasn't obvious, there's a lot of overlap between those groups).

Now, is it REASONABLE to demand that Israel's need to defend itself be suborned to the injustness of the suffering of one innocent?

Put MORE directly -- why does the right of millions of Israelis to live in peace fail to match the right of that one innocent Lebanese?

No, it's not nice, wonderful, just, or fair!

Welcome to THE REAL WORLD, Josh!

Sometimes there ARE no solutions which are fair to all. Often, even. Particularly where EVIL runs amok. Like Lebanon. Like Iran. Like Iraq under Saddam.

Sometimes, in THE REAL WORLD -- you have to decide which is the worst of two evils, and act against THAT one.

Allowing Hezbolla and Hamas to act without serious concern for repercussions -- THAT is the clear and evident greater evil. It has allowed them to grow in power and gain support in places where power is often the ONLY thing which is appreciated.

And the end result has been nothing but and endless cycle of violence and bloodshed. Because NOTHING ever gets resolved.
Oh Bloody Hell | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 3:39 am | #

A picture really is worth a thousand words...
jimmyb | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 6:11 am | #

"The cartoon gets it right.

But why are both riflemen left-handed? "

Maybe because the left hand is for the dirty work in life according to Islamic culture.
They do not take food with the left hand and they do not clean themselves with the right hand.

For what it's worth here's a another picture on the same theme:
http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/ ...of_israel_1.jpg
Cynic | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 8:09 am | #

Josh said:
"But the Israelis are clearly hitting targets that they have no good reason to think are Hezbollah.
These are Lebanese apartment buildings. I wonder how many of those apartments contained something militarily important."

But then Josh did not see Lebanese TV show the bombing of Zilzal missiles (those can reach Haifa from Beirut)
in Hezbollah's South Beirut 'precinct'.
I believe Israel's Channel 10 showed the video because upon exploding one of the rockets shot up into the air and as it came fluttering down appeared to those on the ground like a plane about to crash. The talk on the airwaves until the TV showed the remains on the ground was that it was an Israeli jet.
There were also pics of the motorised rocket launchers among the trees in a residential neighbourhood.
Cynic | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 8:22 am | #

Thanks to "rickl" (at 07.21.06 - 10:46 pm) and and "Oh Bloody Hell" (at 07.22.06 - 3:39 am) for saving me from having to type roughly the same thoughts with this itty bitty PocketPC keyboard!
Dr. Sanity, my first time here via GagDad Bob's site - well done.
To Josh, no you're not an idiot, just ideologically impaired (which may be worse), you Want the world to conform to your wishes, instead of the other way around. Here's a tip: It won't. Learn to look through your discomfort, it'll be worth it in the end.
Van | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 2:31 pm | #

Follow this link please:


http://www.btselem.org/english/ H..._Beit_Hanun.asp

Now you will say that these are far left kooks and this is simply propaganda. Let me remind you that these are Israelis that have invesigated and verified these claims.
Robert | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 3:05 pm | #

How about this picture of a Palestinian boy tied to an IDF jeep?

http://www.pngo.net/GIPP/images/ ...uman_shield.jpg
Robert | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 3:14 pm | #

Wierd thing is, Robert - if it were the Palestinians, that boy in the second link would be dead, and all you'd see would be his head.

The 'human sheilds' in the first link would have their throats cut. The picture you link, sans context, is pretty much worthless.

As you well know.

I used to have a fair bit of sympathy for the Palestinians. At this point, having watched their stupidity and stubborn insistence on turning their children into one-shot weapons-delivery systems, my sympathy-meter's pegged hard to the left and is starting to smoke. In all honesty, I admire the IDF for not descending to the levels the Palestinians plunged through long ago, because they've sure as hell had sufficient provocation to do so.

Here's a little test for you, Robert. Go to Israel, go into any IDF office, hand a sharp knife to any IDF member, bare your throat to him and tell him you're a Palestinian.

Then do the same with Hamas or Hezbollah, but tell them you're a Jew.

I'd recommend doing it in the above order - because if you go to Hamas or Hezbollah, you'll get your throat cut. The IDF member would likely just look at you as if you were insane, keep the knife, and push you out the door.

But hey, I'm probably wrong about that, eh? Evil Jews and Good Hamas and all that...
JLawson | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 4:27 pm | #

The photo was quite famous, I assumed anyone following the Middle East closely would have seen it.

Context:

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/ ...man_shields.htm


http://www.ipc.gov.ps/ipc_e/ipc_...004_04/ 111.html



I don't recall issuing a challenge regarding who is the most barbaric player in the region. Obviously both sides are willing to kill innocent civilians for political purposes.

I was speaking to the above cartoon. Doesn't the fact that Israel does use human shields mean that you should take down the cartoon and issue a retraction? Or, since I loathe censorship, at least a small disclaimer stating that it has been brought to your attention that in at least two instances, the IDF has indeed used Palestinian civilians as human shields.

That would be the honest thing to do.
Robert | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 5:11 pm | #

I just see some kid sitting on a military vehicle. I magnified the picture several times and see no bonds or chains on him. This picture is being misrepresented as propoganda and Robert is assuming we are stupid enough to fall for it. I see no reason to believe the kid is even a Palestinian. Try again Robert.
Shoprat | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 6:50 pm | #

Hey Robert, check out this one from just a few short days ago. HERE

For Hamas and Hezbollah and Al Qaeda etc. this is SOP.
Star | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 6:54 pm | #

Count the number of bombed out apartment buildings (if you can make it that far down the pics...).

this is "precision bombing"...

http://www.correntewire.com/ snow...m_faraway_lands
A Hermit | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 7:49 pm | #

Yeah, that's about what I thought.
Robert | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 8:38 pm | #

Sorry Robert, but you aren't thinking at all, it seems. Nobody has ever claimed that the Israelis --or any one for that matter-- are perfect. They aren't. But Hezbollah is not only not perfect, they are evil. They wish to enslave or destroy. Whatever their faults, the Israelis just want to live normal lives in peace. Do you really imagine that is what the terrorists want? If you do, then you haven't been paying attention these last few years. They would rather die than let the Israelis live in peace. They would rather kill you than let you live free from their oppression. If you don't see this; if you don't understand the difference between them and us, then you deserve to live under their boot. Enjoy.
Star | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 9:12 pm | #

Robert:

Sorry, but after having watched for years if not decades while the Palestinians have gotten more and more nihilistic and less and less able to hide their behavior from the world with the advent of instant communications, I suppose you can't understand why I'd simply say "I don't care about the Palestinians." They have become perpetual victims, and expect the world to rescue them from their own behavior. To pay for their upkeep while they do nothing but plot war and descend further into savagery. I watched the news when Arafat - when offered 95% of what the Palestinian people supposedly wanted to make peace with Israel - turned it DOWN and started the Second Intifada and started sending suicide bombers into Israel.

I do actually feel sorry for the Palestinian people. They've been lied to for the last 40+ years and fed such a load of 'victim' crap that they don't see their leadership has screwed them out of any chance of joining the 21st Century.

Look at it another way - Israel got dumped where they were in '47. Despite having enemies on all sides, they made the desert bloom and they turned Israel into a high-tech heaven in the ME.

The Palestinians have sat on their asses, aside from a brief attempt to take over Jordan. They've waited for grudging handouts from their Arab neighbors who used them in a proxy war with Israel. The ultimate cannon fodder - their leaders and Arafat eventually persuaded the people to strap on explosives in the hopes of taking out a few Jews. Hamas and Hezbollah don't count it a good day unless an attack kills a Jew or two.

And there's not a one of those nations that's anywhere near so productive as that tiny strip of land that Israel's on.

Hate isn't good fertilizer, Robert. If they'd accepted Israel there in the first place, the ME would be one hell of a garden spot by now. Look at what Lebanon was like before the civil war there, before the Palestinians decided to make war. That's what the ME could have been like.

But instead of being a hell of a garden spot, it's simply hell. The Palestinians have a damn black thumb.

J.
JLawson | Email | Homepage | 07.22.06 - 11:02 pm | #

Let me try this again because you are intelligent and welcoming people....

The cartoon implies that "soldiers of Palestine" use human shields and that Israelis do not. I have demonstrated that on at least two occasions Israelis have used civilians as human shields.

Therefore the cartoon is false. That was my only point in this.

"Sorry Robert, but you aren't thinking at all, it seems. Nobody has ever claimed that the Israelis --or any one for that matter-- are perfect"

Nowhere in my post did I claim that anyone was perfect. But the cartoon implies that one group, say Hamas, hides behind civilans(which they do) and the other group, say the IDF, does not.

But they do.

J Lawson: "Israel got dumped where they were in '47."

Really,J? Is that how it happened?

Just dumped there?

http:// www.jewishvirtuallibrary....King_David.html
Robert | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 12:03 am | #

Troll.
JLawson | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 12:32 am | #

Sorry to be rude, Robert - but I gave up moral equivalence a long time ago. Have a nice day, and don't forget to floss.
JLawson | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 12:36 am | #

> How about this picture of a Palestinian boy tied to an IDF jeep?

TIED? Where is tied? His shoelaces appear to be tied. That's about the only tie in evidence.

You ask us if WE've seen the picture...

HAVE YOU?

The only possible thing that "might" be a tie in that picture could just as well be a black armband.

And IF it were a tie, it's not a very effective one -- the body tends to move all over the place when you have only one extremity pinned -- you DID perhaps notice the utter lack of any similar thing on the other arm? Try it sometime. See how much you can still move about by keeping one hand on a the corner of a chair.

OTOH, if they were detaining the kid for being somewhere he shouldn't have been -- or even doing something he shouldn't have been -- then all they would be doing is looking to keep him from running away without having someone sit on him the entire time.

For THAT purpose, then a single restraint WOULD be effective -- perhaps you've seen it in movies and TV shows, inside a police precinct -- where they handcuff someone to the arm of a chair or another fixed object?

NAWWW. They MUST be using him as a SHIELD. Certainly, they are clearly ready to go into action!

In fact, they already ARE in action!!

They are clearly in the first stages of planning to use the technique The Left expects the IDF to use against Hezbollah and Hamas -- They're going to talk them to death!!!

So, if you BELIEVE that claim, you're a fool.

If you don't but STILL tried to pass it off here -- you're a liar.

Oh, and BTW --
WHACK.
.
Oh Bloody Hell | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 1:00 am | #

Oh, and, by the way -- citing the "Palestinian National Authority State Information Service" as your source does NOT suggest, oh, how should I say it?... Any sort of grasp of what is a reliable source and what is not.

For example:

Agency France Presse -- not reliable.

ABC News -- somewhat reliable

Fox News -- fairly reliable

Mark I Eyeball -- distinctly reliable

God -- Totally reliable

Any organization composed totally of members of Islam, when they are the sole source for information about a subject, and they have, as members of Islam, a vested interest in people believing them as a source -- generally ranks about as far below AFP as AFP ranks below God.

Capisce?

*Now*, perhaps, you can go search for some useful information to back up your point of view -- and actually find some, if there is any to be found.

If you can't, then -- hey, who knows -- perhaps your point of view is wrong, then, hey?
Oh Bloody Hell | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 1:15 am | #

I'm just reading this whole screed for the 1st time, so excuse me for trying to summarize. Seems the best point of all is surprisingly "anon" at 7:21 who blows up Josh's (not that others hadn't) analogy to smithereens. If Cuba started lobbing missiles into Fla from elementary school playgrounds would most of our citizens say that there's nothing we can do- we can't fight back cause even though we're getting shelled, we can't strike back when innocent kids are in the area? Israel is not targeting innocent & we wouldn't either, but we're not going to watch innocents in our country killed just because the instigators are gutless. Crazy as it is on my art, but Robert apparently gave up & I hope it is because he learned something. (tho he was hopelessly outclassed and more importantly, hopelessly wrong!)Secondly Robert has nothing but isolated conjecture to try to prove his point. I'm no expert on this, but I'd like to see Robert make a case of equivalency on both sides- Hezbollah uses human shields & Israel does also to the same extent. I don't think it's even close. I do respect the liberal mindset showing up here to debate- Robert & Josh are dead wrong but we should appreciate their input. On the liberal lefty sites, when they are beaten down by logic & facts, they just start namecalling & bashing. Robert & Josh didn't do that.
Chunky | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 1:33 am | #

"Oh, and, by the way -- citing the "Palestinian National Authority State Information Service" as your source does NOT suggest, oh, how should I say it?... Any sort of grasp of what is a reliable source and what is not."

And then....sorry, I can't stop laughing, and then you say:

Fox News -- fairly reliable

and then...sorry...

God -- Totally reliable

Oh you're right. I know when I've been bested. Who can argue with such an incredible array of logic and common sense. I will slink back from whence I came, muttering those words "God-Totally reliable"
Robert | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 2:16 am | #

OK-if the bottom line for you is that God being totally reliable is some kind of bad logic, then bye-bye & I'm sorry to hear that!
Chunky | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 4:06 am | #

Israel is under a microscope, being watched by all the left-wing hand-wringers and bedwetters in the world, who would love nothing more than to embarrass Israel. The absence of any credible reports that Israel uses human shields speaks for itself.

American soldiers in Iraq have told of instances where the jihadists have fired upon coalition patrols from behind groups of civilians, mostly women and children, of course. The holy warriors often have cameras rolling on the civilians, hoping to record a massacre which they themselves orchestrated. When fighting such scum, sadly, there are civilian deaths, but the blame lies squarely on the enemy.

Israel must take out every single missile-launch site, and because Hezbollah put them in homes and other civilian locations, Hezbollah alone is responsible for any civilian deaths.
GnuCarSmell | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 10:52 am | #

It's just like when North Vietnam used to put anti-aircraft guns on top of schools and hospitals.
Shoprat | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 12:23 pm | #

Robert's just an atheist moral equivicator. Very sad outlook on life on planet Earth too, I might add. I really feel for folks like Robert who have this view of death and the afterlife (or lack thereof in Bob's case).

I'm mystified by their complete lack of faith in anything but themselves.

Very sad.
The Dude | Email | Homepage | 07.23.06 - 1:01 pm | #

I'm sorry, but did Robert ever do anything to indicate his religious beliefs?
Josh | Email | Homepage | 07.24.06 - 2:16 am | #

Yeah dumb-ass, if you would've clicked on the fargin' link I provided you can read all of his pathetic whining.

Go ahead Josh, CLICK THE DAMN LINK AND READ ALL ABOUT ROBERTS BELIEFS. It's right there for all the world to see.

So don't be sorry, just remain stupid.
The Dude | Email | Homepage | 07.24.06 - 10:55 am | #

I'm sorry Robert but you are comparing Anomaly with Routine and hence your comparison is without value.

It is equivalent to saying that since sometimes it rains in the Sahara, Robert does not bother classifying the climate there as different from the Amazon Rain Forest. Robert does not understand why different animals and plants live in each location, because he knows that people who think the climates are different are lying- it rains in the desert, it rains in the jungle, it rains everywhere.

An anomaly, or three, or ten, proves nothing and says nothing except that there are anomalies. We know. Thankyou. The Cartoon, on the other hand, illustrates standards.

Ben
Ben | Email | Homepage | 07.24.06 - 11:11 am | #

If the left can get away with saying that Israel is 'targeting civilians', then we should be able to say that the left wants hezzbollah to be able to stay in a position to fire missiles.
niceandeasy | Email | Homepage | 07.24.06 - 1:13 pm | #

I was just asking. No reason to be an asshole about it.
Josh | Email | Homepage | 07.24.06 - 4:48 pm | #

It's obvious from the graphic that the Israeli soldier is callusly and deliberately firing at the innocent child that just happened to be in front of the valiant Palestinian freedom fighter.

We can also see from the cowardly position of the Israeli baby, behind the Israeli soldier and well out of harm's way, that the ordinary Israeli population does not support the IDF in their terroristic assualt on the freedom loving people of Palestine.

/sarc off

for Josh and Robert: when I first posted this on Jlawson's site I forgot the sarcasm off tag. This time I made sure to include it so even trolls like like you two would know that I am really making fun of the trollish attitude that Muslim's can do not wrong in a war against Israel and Israel can do nothing right.

Otpu
Otpu | Email | Homepage | 07.24.06 - 5:32 pm | #

"I am really making fun of the trollish attitude that Muslim's can do not wrong in a war against Israel and Israel can do nothing right."

Yes, because that's my exact position. I've been saying this whole time that Hezbollah has done nothing wrong. Jesus Christ.

From an earlier post:

"Once again, I'm mostly on the side of Israel, who has every right to track down and kill/capture the terrorists who attack her. However, it is wrong for Israel to deliberately target civilian populations in the process, which it is quite clearly doing in Lebanon."

So is straw cheap this time of year?
Josh | Email | Homepage | 07.24.06 - 6:53 pm | #

Josh - Re: post on 7/24 @ 4:48pm

LOL! Sorry man. I really can be an asshole sometimes for sure.
The Dude | Email | Homepage | 07.25.06 - 1:45 pm | #

Josh. The issue is your attempt to conflate some sort of moral equivalence between Hezbollah and Israel. Even the UN calls Hezbollah on their cowardly and inhumanly despicable behavior: (From Yahoo News today)

---------------
"BEIRUT, Lebanon - The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of “cowardly blending” in among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.

The militant group has built bunkers and tunnels near the Israeli border to shelter weapons and fighters, and its members easily blend in among civilians.

"Jan Egeland spoke to reporters at Larnaca airport in Cyprus late Monday after visiting Lebanon to coordinate an international aid effort. ...

“Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children,” he said. “I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don’t think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.”"
-----------------------------

No human or group of humans is or ever will be perfect. The people that make up Hezbollah though represent the worst of what human beings can become. If the people of Israel were 'morally equivlent' to Hezbollah, tens of thousands of Lebanese civilians would now be dead. Israel easily has the military capability to essentially decimate the population of Lebanon in a week or two. They are clearly not attempting to do so. However Hezbollah is at the same time doing everything possible to maximize civilian deaths - on both sides...
OneUvThem | Email | Homepage | 07.25.06 - 8:21 pm | #