Israel is also racist -- they won't allow Jews and Palestinians to marry and live within Israel.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 8:50 am | #

I call bullshit on that.
sgtted | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 9:23 am | #

It's curious that so many of our fellow Americans amongst elites on the left side of the aisle -- many of whom presumably have more than a passing acquaintance with psychotherapeutic concepts -- are so blind to their own pathologies.
Sissy Willis | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 9:29 am | #

Another way of looking at this phenomenon is human laziness - we tend to seek out what is easy and avoid what is difficult and complicated (hence the popularity of simple moral plays in movies where there's at most only one plot twist, and simple good guys vs. bad guys - not at all the complexity of say, Russian novels with 200+ characters and intertwining plots...)

It's simply easier to assume that the USA is the ONLY force at work in the world, that we REALLY control both sides of any war, that if only we wanted to, utopia would spring out of the ground. That makes blaming one's political opponents manageable - it keeps the fiction going that since all is a conspiracy, if only a new set of 'enlightened conspirators' got in charge all would be well.

This is also why, despite the constant barrage of 'bad news' on the weather and natural disaster front, most Americans aren't stockpiling food, water, gasoline, medicines, guns and buying solar power panels and generators... we simply choose to believe the disaster we daily are told of won't happen to us or if they do, they'll be of short duration. It's easier to continue believing the myth that bad things happen to others than to do all the heavy lifting to prepare for tragedy ourselves.

Besides, should some bad thing happen catching us upprepared we can engage in magical thinking that if only FEMA wanted to, they could instantly and magically restore power, food, water, and other services.
John | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 9:49 am | #

"What we are witnessing is a psycholgoical defensive maneuver"

Please.

What we're witnessing is folk who don't want to see Israel OR Hezbollah commit crimes - especially when dozens (hundreds?) of children are the ones being maimed and killed.

This is nothing but a desire for law and order and outrage when children are killed. This is a normal and healthy phenomena.

I'd suggest what we have happening HERE on this page, Doctor, is a bit of defense mechanism known as rationalization. It is an effort to ease the guilt of supporting actions that are resulting in the deaths of innocents and is less than healthy, in this case.
Dan Trabue | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 9:50 am | #

Well said, Dan. What the pro-America and pro-Israeli voices on this page have a hard time doing is turning their insightful and rigorous critique of Islamofascism onto themselves. No, they won't find the same degree of primitive and psychotic processes, but there's a lot that we need to look at to. If we don't, expect even more Abu Ghraibs, more Hadithas, more Qanas.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 10:01 am | #

Dan,

How come the demos are always against Israel and the US? Why not against the Sudanese, Hezbollah, Iranian executions. The problem is that we aren't dealing with serious analysis of complex problems that recommend changed behavior from both sides of a conflict. We are seeing childish wishful thinking.
expat | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 10:03 am | #

sgtted, what do you call "bullshit" on? Here is the article from the Independent (UK) reprinted on CommonDreams, which shows that "Israel's High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with their spouses."

That's racism. http://www.commondreams.org/head...s06/0515- 05.htm
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 10:04 am | #

Actually, expat, all around the world, in America as well, gays and lesbians and transgendereds gathered to mark the anniversary of Iran's brutal state-sponsored slaughter of two gay teenagers -- put to death for the crime of loving one another. All across America gay Americans stoof up for freedom and condemnded the barbarism of Iran.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 10:05 am | #

"...more Abu Ghraibs (minor humiliations), more Hadithas (doubtful there was a crime), more Qanas (completely caused by Hezbollah hiding behind babies)". In actuality, what our ever-hopeful press is belatedly finding after naively reporting atrocities by the West is one Arab scam after another, such as "the Jenin massacre" which was primarily deaths of Israeli soldiers, the "gaza picnic massacre" which was a complete fraud, the "UN Post massacre" in which the UN had allowed Hezbollah to hide in their laps, and the "Qana massacre", in which Hezbollah sent rockets from apartments of warned civilians, and about which there is also doubt about the actual reality of the circunstances and causes of the deaths. Indeed, there is a very great deal to look into and I strongly recommend that we all start now. Thank you, Dr Sanity, for helping with that start.
Mifouf | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 10:17 am | #

Anyone defending Hizb'Allah's military tactic of holding women and babies hostage is sick.

Kohut

I live in gay capital NYC and haven't seen one gay protest against Iran. NOT one.
Exactly where across America did these protests take place.
I know one was held in London several months ago but only about ten people showed up.
syn | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 11:13 am | #

It's so bizarre to read posts like Mifouf's. Why do you think Israel halted air strikes after Qana? It recognized that its "unconscious spoke" and that it had revealed to the world an irrational destructive element to its military action. Mel Gibson did the same thing this weekend: the world got a glimpse of his unconscious and he immediately realized he had to make a strong statement that showed he was aware of just how hateful he had revealed a part of his psyche to be.

To minimize Haditha or Abu Ghraib shows the opposite of Israel's admirable self-restraint: Bush should have fired Rumsfeld after Abu Ghraib but instead did the opposite, praised him even more. We see where all this praise has gotten us -- into a civil war in Iraq. Our own military is aghast at the "denial" this administration has shown. And the military's own report points to major problems with the way Haditha was handled.

I think you guys need to go back to the beginning and read Freud's Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 11:15 am | #

Actually Expat

The demos are For Isreal when they can pander to the Jewish vote...then when they are elected into office they enjoy having dinner with Jew killers in order to show the International community's idea of peace, love and understanding man. It's all about the money and illiberal collectivism.

(Dr. Sanity I'm sorry for my level of anger at the moment, the hate propaganda from the NY Trash riles my senses to no end)
syn | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 11:19 am | #

Syn, here is a link to the "International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission" website which details a meeting recently held in New York to respond to global hatred against gays, particularly state-sponsored killings like those in Iran. This was part of a worldwide recognition that the Arab world's hatred towards gays and women must be addressed.

http://www.iglhrc.org/site/iglhr...id=5& detail=650
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 11:19 am | #

Kohut

You are a liar.
syn | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 11:22 am | #

Syn, I'm not a liar. And learn how to spell "Israel."
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 11:36 am | #

We are spiraling into the perfect war, a conflict in which a forced choice will have been made by everyone in the world, with no middle ground remaining; where there is a clear and unambiguous line between good and evil, and each side is passionately committed to total victory by necessity, and necessity is law.

The tools at hand to prosecute this war are nuclear, biological and chemical; and there are already enough of them at hand to destroy most life on Earth.

The old city and plain of Har Megiddo (aka Armageddon) is about 50 miles southeast of Haifa, near Nazareth, and Hezbollah rockets have already fallen there. Does anybody detect a pattern here?

Did you hear Ahmadinejad say that the West and Israel is, "a cancer that must be destroyed"?
M.Capulus | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 12:05 pm | #

A lot of comments in these threads lead me to believe a lot of people here might be diagnosed as having "histrionic personality disorder." When you say that this is a war between good and evil and that if evil wins, there will be no commerce, no literacy, etc etc... you are dramatizing what is a very complex problem into very simple terms -- exactly what I see on the couch with my own histrionic analysands. Dr. Sanity herself has admitted that she is "grandiose" and there is a grandiosity in the way she frames these foreign policy dilemmas. It reminds me of Mel Gibson's grandiosity, actually. This is what analysts call "multi-determined." In part it is a realistic response to a realistic threat, but it is also SO MUCH MORE. And it's that "more" that we all need to focus on. Us AND them -- not just THEM.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 12:20 pm | #

Kohut/Kernberg: "Israel is also racist -- they won't allow Jews and Palestinians to marry and live within Israel."

Learn how to read. It's not Jews and Palestinians ..... it's Palestinians and Arab Israeli citizens.

"Citizenship Law which outlaws "family unification" in Israel between Palestinians and Arab citizens of Israel."

In your zeal to hammer Israel with that now useless term (due to it's extreme overuse) "racist" you forgot to actually read the article.

Go away
darwin | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 12:58 pm | #

Dan, the comment specifically addressed that whatever wrong has been done here, it is orders of magnitude different fro Nazi Germany, and thus so hyperbolic for someone closely familiar with WW2 to make the claim that it suggests some pathology, and not mere disapproval.

Also, wait and watch what information comes out about Cana. The first draft of our info is seldom correct on these things. There are already serious questions about the info received.

Kohut, if you come in late to the game you may not be aware of the ongoing conversation about the defense mechanisms we have here. As any number of us earn our daily bread dealing with diagnoses and defenses, you should hesitate before making broad claims. You will find that as dramatic as some of the claims are here, they are buttressed with considerable supporting data. With the caveat that individual defenses have unknown applicability to groups, there are nonetheless behaviors and responses which are highly suggestive.

Next, in response to the complaint that there were few or no demonstrations against Israel's enemies, you responded by identifying a meeting that was scheduled a few weeks ago. I think you just proved the case against yourself when you produce something so minimal. Also, the Palestinian-Israeli marrige question was a court case to determine whether there was an absolute right, not whether permission was ever granted. You made it sound like the latter. Again, you argue well against yourself.
Assistant Village Idiot | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:00 pm | #

Klueless Kohut/Kernberg: "Us AND them -- not just THEM."

Well then you go over there and teach them your touchy feely ways. Western civilization has bent over backwards to the point of kissing it's own ass to appease these brainwashed cultists. We've done plenty of "soul searching" on our part. No more "Us" now ..... just "them".

Stay away
darwin | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:03 pm | #

PROJECTION ILLUSTRATED

Dr.S.' first reference above relates that
"...a symptom of a wider unreality about the Middle East, one that now dominates ... permeates every report by the BBC."

I remember when the BBC used to be the pre-eminent news source in the world. I don't remember when that changed, or how long it took, but it is only too clear that it has., and that the BBC is only millimeters away from being a Western AlJazeerah.

I bring this up because unless one can see the pathology in action it may be difficult to see how the Dr.'s analysis applies, especially if you don't already know it's there. Here is some independent confirmation of the general loss of objectivity at the BBC:
http://www.bbcwatch.co.uk/index.html

Specifically, as this applies to Israel, we have the following...
http://www.honestreporting.com/ a...cumentaries.asp

...and here's a blog I just found that documents BBC bias, by commenting on specific BBC articles
http://www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com/
See the Friday, July 28, 2006 comment on an article about Israel for an all too accurate illustration of the Dr.'s point, where the commentor says...
"Thorpe's mindless caricaturing is representative of the BBC's coverage in general. How this happens amidst the BBC's luxuriant resources overseen by an army of pretty well-qualified people is a source of fascination."

Evidently, he hasn't read Dr. Sanity's comments, or he would know what is going on.
ytba | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:13 pm | #

You're right, Darwin, I wrote my post quickly and substituted "Jews" for "Arabs."

I take issue with your idea that the west "has bent over backwards." Actually the west has been interested in the Middle East for its oil and has built a foreign policy around economic interests. This has really come back to bite us. I won't go through the evidence because I am sure you know it already. What has been GOOD about the neo-cons is that they have seen DEEPER reasons to engage the region other than economic; what has been bad is their MESSIANIC and DELUSIONAL certainty about how to spread democracy, a totally ahistorical and infantile perspective.

Well, if you think getting thousands of gay people all across the U.S. together to protest Iran is "minor" then so be it. Getting gay people to protest against a country that is part of George Bush's "axis of evil" is a real achievement.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:20 pm | #

The New York Times has announced that the entire world is outraged at Israel’s behavior in bombing Qana. So it must be true. Or is it?

Nothing is more heartrending than the suffering of children. Emotionally we all want to put the blame on the bombs, the bombers, and those who ordered the bombing. And yet that is obviously a twisted perversion of reality. Because it is the explicit policy of Islamist terror groups to hide behind children, shooting missiles at Israeli civilians all the time. The gains to the terrorists are enormous. Israelis inevitably feel guilty about the unwanted casualties, but they don’t know what else to do in the face of constant attacks on their own children at home. The Muslim masses are predictably outraged because they only hear one side of the story. And the Leftist media continue to lie—- there is no other word for it—- about who is choosing to expose children to danger.

So the seeds are planted from the beginning. The BBC and the New York Times have labeled the black hats and the white hats for years and years. We are seeing just another replay of Leftist propaganda since Stalin—- who was the innocent victim of Western aggression until decades after his death, when a few old Lefties sheepishly admitted his crimes. Communism killed some 100 million innocents in the 20th century, according to the authoritative Black Book of Communism (Livre Noire du Communism in the original French).

And yet, the most famous intellectuals of the 20th century served this murderous ideology. We are simply seeing a repeat today, with the usual suspects on the Left siding with Islamic fascism just as they took sides with the Leftist fascism of Stalin and Mao.

The Qana story is just a replay of Abu Ghraib, the myth that Saddam had no WMDs, the Wilson-Plame bedroom farce, and on and on. It has just become a kind of reflex of the Left: Israel and the United States are always wrong. Everything is set up for the same mendacious narrative.

Hezbollah killed the children of Qana, just as it killed the children of Haifa. Hezbollah is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his fellow criminals of the mullahcracy in Tehran, who created the Hezbo monster with malice aforethought to “wipe Israel off the map.” There’s no mystery here. They are dead serious about a second genocide against the Jews of Israel. There has never been any effort to lie about it on the part of the Khomeini cult in Tehran. So we know who is responsible.

And yet, the “liberal” media always blame the good guys. There is something twisted and perverse about the media narrative, some sense of delight in enabling the overt malice of the Islamofascists. Because the media know. They know what’s going on. They are just playing dumb, trying to turn their easily-led audiences against those they hate the most. The media take an almost sexual delight in facilitating the murderous malice of Nasrallah and Ahmadinejad. In the calculus of moral responsibility, the New York Times and its ilk must therefore be held to blame in equal measure with the aggressor. “If it bleeds, it leads,” is their working slogan, and it is hard to evade the thought that the biggest “journalists” and editors have learned to enjoy that game, that sense of importance, that arrogation of power. They are co-conspirators in the slaughter of innocents.

The Leftist media will now tell us who won in Lebanon. They know, because they make the rules. When they announce that Israel lost, a frisson of delight will shiver the Left around the world. Muslims will hand out candy in the streets. And the world will become much more dangerous.

Yet our permanent Ruling Class will cling to its power, sneering at time-serving politicians with undisguised contempt. When George Bush and Condi Rice are history, Pinch Sulzberger and the BBC think they will still be there, exercising their monopoly on permissible thinking in the world.

Yet everybody knows that if Hezbollah did not exist there would be a solid peace between Israel and Lebanon, just as there is between Israel and Jordan. Both countries would thrive on peace, just as both are suffering today.

There are only two obstacles to a true and lasting peace: Tehran and the worldwide Left. Both must be defeated, if children on all sides are to live and thrive, and enjoy normal lives in the Middle East.
J Lewis | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:22 pm | #

I lived at Earth People's Park in Norton, VT, and worked at the World Trade Center, NYC. I have certainly met with people from all varieties of human life. Folks, these crazy Islamos want us dead, and the time for negotiations are through; it's us or them, and our internecine disputes serve no purpose.
Tom TB | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:25 pm | #

You people are so perverse. You filiter everything through your "we are good, they are bad" perspective, and then accuse the mainstream media of doing the same. Don't you ever think about applying your critique of others to yourself?

And if there are a lot of analysts here, I recommend another round of analysis. There is a lot of black or white thinking going on here.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:30 pm | #

Kohut/Kernberg: "what has been bad is their MESSIANIC and DELUSIONAL certainty about how to spread democracy, a totally ahistorical and infantile perspective."

What? You can't be refering to our efforts to establish some sort of sane, coherent government in Iraq. You must be refering to the MESSIANIC and DELUSIONAL efforts to spread the cult of death around the globe. You know, islam.

AS far as oil goes, people always tend to think it's the west that's really dependent on Middle East oil. The Middle East has absolutely nothing to offer but oil. No trade, no industry, no technology ..... just oil. They are as dependent on selling it as we are on buying it. The only catch is we have the capability, initiative and the innovation to perfect energy sources other than oil.

Once we do, it's back to tribes, camels and sand. We should really make that a priority, starve their income. Then they couldn't afford to spread the disease of islam around the world.
darwin | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:43 pm | #

K/K dare's lecture the brilliance of Dr. Sanity. Ha! He isn't qualified to lick her shoes.

But I'd be willing to bet she's getting prettly good chuckle out of his comments. Any takers?

And really, you simply cannot describe folks like K/K and his ilk more brilliantly than this:

"The dynamic of displacement goes a long way to explain the remarkable and sometimes lunatic appeasement of Islamofascists aggression and violence by so many individuals and governments and around the world, even as they trash the US (and particularly Bush) and Israel. Denial and displacement give you the illusion that you are in control of the situation and that the solution is simple.

The only problem is that reality doesn't go away simply because you have found a way to satisfactorily (and temporarily) deflect it; and have managed to hide the unpalatable truth from yourself."

That's our super-selfrightous, high & friggin' mighty, Kermit/Kornbread (are latest oppositionist) to a tee.

Why don't you slink on back to the DU. Your brand of thought might play well on campus but around here, you come across as nothing more or less than a bleeding-heart-liberal-sissy-man/girl who's in need of a large doses of reality in massive quantities.

Good luck with that panty-boy. Dream on and please, spare me your sophmoric clinicians. If I were on your couch I'd reach over and jam your pencil where the sun doesn't shine.

Huzzah!!
The Dude | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:43 pm | #

Do you think there is any question that Hezbollah fits into the "Bad" category Kohut? Is that in doubt for you?
DG | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:45 pm | #

Actually, The Dude, I am anathema to people on sites like Democratic Underground, where to use the term Islamofascists automatically makes me an evil neo-conservative. Yes, on THAT board I am attacked for attacking Islam, while on THIS board I am attacked for attacking U.S.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:48 pm | #

DG, Hezbollah is unequivocally "bad." Hamas slightly less so but yes, still very "bad." Iran? Evil. Syria? A little less so but still evil. North Korea? Forget about it.

America? Much much better. NO COMPARISON. But to me that means we have to be even more rigorous in interrogating ourselves. "We are better" does not equal "We are good." Making The Passion of the Christ is not the same as conducting a Holocaust, but that doesn't mean that Mel Gibson, just because he isn't Adolf Hitler, doesn't need to address his anti-Semitism.

All I am really saying is WE HAVE FLAWS TOO and I believe we need to focus on those flaws. All this time and effort wasted attacking Islam on blogs should let us know that it's really something IN OURSELVES we are attacking. Something about our own unconscious we want to kill off rather than face
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 1:50 pm | #

I'd love to see Kohut/Kernberg transported to the last days of Rome, telling his patients how delusional they were for thinking that the Huns and Vandals were any real threat; or that their nightmares of a Dark Age were merely "histrionic personality disorder... dramatizing a very complex problem into very simple terms". Nine hundred years of darkness? What a preposterous notion!
M.Capulus | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:03 pm | #

Islam is not being attacked any more than is worthy do to the actions of some of it's adherants. The Jews went through it once upon a time, as did the Christians, and now its Islams turn. All because men had corrupted G-ds word to the point where action had to be taken to correct it.

It's an actual fight, and unless we win it, we doom many more generations to a bastardized lesson of G-d centered around hatred of specified others.
DG | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:04 pm | #

Well hells-bell K/K, you just can't win for losing now can you?

Do you wonder why that is? Is it some kind of jerk of the knee instinctualism you posses wherein you must regard yourself the opposition to every discussion you entertain?

Oh wait, don't tell me...it's your "collective unconscious...filled with primitive tribalist nonsense" hard at work. Yes?

This little nugget should be framed and hung on the wall (maybe already is on yours K/K?):

"Something about our own unconscious we want to kill off rather than face"

Wow, that's deep man. Not!
The Dude | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:04 pm | #

First of all, anyone who claims that Islam threatens Western Civilization is idiotic. They threaten ALL of civilization. Meaning, if they're ever stupid enough to nuke us or Europe, then they will get nuked. They will not win this war. We have too many resources. So enough with the "days of camels" rhetoric. It's idiotic.

I do have a contrarian steak, Dude -- it's something I have to be conscious of. But most people fall into black-or-white thinking, and anytime someone comes along who says "Things are more complex" he gets attacked. So be it. I will still ask people to look more deeply, like Freud did. This was my training. No one who calls himself an analyst, who believes in the unconscious, will ever take ANYTHING at face value.

I believe this is a "war" that we have to "win" but like the Cold War it cannot be fought through violence. It must be fought through diplomacy and the markets.
Kohut/Kernberg | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:20 pm | #

Fight through "diplomacy! And "markets"! Get a clue, KK. Islamofascists are not like the old Soviets in any substantive way. They want to die gloriously for Allah; unlike atheist/materialist communists.
M.Capulus | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:31 pm | #

Dan Trabue's propaganda template

Poor Mr. T. has been programmed well. His formula is a simple one, easy to adopt because it requires no critical thought, only submission to one's nonrational self.

"What we're witnessing is folk who don't want to see Israel OR Hezbollah commit crimes - especially when dozens (hundreds?) of children are the ones being maimed and killed."

By putting Israel first, he says that Israel is the guilty party. (note that he HAS to add Hizbo., here, because everyone knows the ARE guilty, which makes it somehow ok to now TRANSFER that guilt to Israel. He uses it to inject the idea that someone is guilty, then drops them from the docket. Perfect illustration of Dr.S' point. )

Then he proceeds to invoke the deaths of "innocents" (many are terrorist larva killed when their parents have 'work accidents' as almost certainly the case here.) in order to refocus our attention on something that generates a visceral response so that our emotions will interfere with rational thought
.
Note also the way he conflates the number of dead, by implying they are probably far greater than reported, in order to maximize the effect of this assertion and the uncertainty it engenders.

"This is nothing but a desire for law and order and outrage when children are killed. This is a normal and healthy phenomena."

Ahh, who doesn't want "law and order" and who but a callous fiend feels no "outrage when children are killed"? BUT he deliberately leaves unanswered the question, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE? because he might risk proving that it isn't Israel. Shhh, better imply rather than be specific.

And, what does the "This is nothing other than.." refer to? Probably to what the Dr. calls "a psycholgoical defensive maneuver?" And how is it "healthy?" to be angry at the victim, when the aggressor's children are killed, most often at the hands of terrorists than by Israel's action...
(as the case in Qana:
http://powerlineblog.com/archive...ives/ 014850.php )
He leaves that unexplained, because it would prevent readers from responding with a sense of guilt and shame he attempts to ellicit with his screed.

Then, he takes a potshot at the Dr., accusing her of "...an effort to ease the guilt of supporting actions that are resulting in the deaths of innocents and is less than healthy, in this case." Again, note how he injects a visceral, not rational, argument. He implies that the deaths are Israel's fault, not Hizbo's and hopes your anger at their deaths will undermine what the Dr. says, and by extension condemn Israel.

This is a typical boilerplate that is being used over and over. Once one learns to recognize how they operate, though, it is easier to defend against their lies.
ytba | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:35 pm | #

KK: "But most people fall into black-or-white thinking, and anytime someone comes along who says "Things are more complex" he gets attacked."

And sometimes issues ARE just black and white. You're bleating on about something perhaps in your own subconscious you want to kill off rather than face.

KK: "I believe this is a "war" that we have to "win" but like the Cold War it cannot be fought through violence. It must be fought through diplomacy and the markets."

Isalmists have declared, on more than one occassion that the intent of islam is global domination and the conversion or death of the infidels. They have repeatedly engaged in horric violent acts to accomplish these ends yet somehow, as clear as they have stated their intentions, you insist we reign in any desire to wage war and win thru diplomacy and markets?

Taking a black and white issue and muddling it through some faulty analysis sounds to me like a death wish.
darwin | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:40 pm | #

correction

"Note also the way he conflates the number of dead"

Should have been,

"Note also the way he inflates the number of dead"
ytba | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 2:58 pm | #

For some reason I'm reminded of a recent statement by a friend of mine: "I'm not trying to be racist or antisemitic, but what the FUCK is Israel thinking?"
Michael Andreyakovich | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 3:25 pm | #

b"h

Winning war with Islamofascism by use of diplomacy is delusional.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/316

"The Koran tells how Mohammed made a peace treaty with the Jews of a certain city in the Arabian peninsula. But within two years, he found a pretext to suddenly break the treaty, attack his surprised victims, and then behead all the Jewish men in the public square. Mohammed's tactic is held up by the Muslim Arabs as a hallowed model. It is enshrined in Muslim legal practice which has it that Muslims are not obligated for long to honor peace treaties with non Muslims -- infidels.
We can readily see the application of this doctrine in Arab-Israeli agreements. The Arabs simply don't honor their agreements unless they are forced to."
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/...aug97/ basch.htm

But, then, that is part of the problem I hear the Dr. talking about.
"The entire purpose of displacement is to gain control over the conflict. By focusing on something you have some control over, the psyche is much less threatened."

We have some control over setting up, attending and getting signitures to agreements at "peace talks" and so we think we are in control. But, when one party (ALWAYS the Arab) breaks the agreement, Israel (this applies to the US at times as well) is blamed for whatever retaliation they take (and which was permitted as a PART of the agreement); where do you suppose they look for a solution? That's right, MORE "negotiations". Never mind that they have never worked, or that they only make the problem worse in the long run.

The talks, not the outcomes, are what can be "controled", and so the false belief that one is making progress continues to be touted, as long as "diplomacy" can be invoked and they can keep pretending "progress" is being made.
ytba | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 3:46 pm | #

Cahoots/Conbird spew their excrement, "2", in support of Tradue's "innocent victims" despite the fac that...
"If a location is a legitimate military objective, it does not cease to be one because civilians are in the vicinity. As Article 28 of the 4th Geneva Convention provides:
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."
http:// vitalperspective.typepad....nding_to_t.html


"...there's a lot that we need to look at to[sic]. If we don't, expect even more Abu Ghraibs, more Hadithas, more Qanas."

Abu Ghraib:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp? ID=13453
http://powerlineblog.com/ archive...4225.php#014225

Haditha:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Arti...le.asp? ID=22801
http://powerlineblog.com/ archive...4225.php#014225

Qana.
http:// vitalperspective.typepad....nding_to_t.html
http://powerlineblog.com/archive...ives/ 014845.php
http://powerlineblog.com/archive...ives/ 014850.php
***for more on Arab "work accidents" see the 90 entries that span 6 years found on Arutz Sheva when searching the terms "work accident" start here...
http://www.israelnationalnews.co...accident& from=1

And, let's not forget, Gitmo "to"
http://michellemalkin.com/archiv...ives/ 005639.htm

I guess these foolish malicious leftist terrorist sycophants don't realize that if the terrorists were to win, G-d forbid, then THEY would be among the first ones beheaded
ytba | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 5:20 pm | #

KK,

"All I am really saying is WE HAVE FLAWS TOO and I believe we need to focus on those flaws."

No kidding we've got problems to deal with. The question is one of priorities. The various issues with Western civilization and its imperfect implementation of its core ideals are not going to kill us, or reverse centuries of social progress. Saying or suggesting that we need to perfect our own house before dealing with the threat of radical Islam is like decreeing that the fire stations have to be in perfect, inspection-by-your-mother-in-law order before they can send anyone out to deal with the wildfires sweeping the countryside. While we can deal with both, right now it's the external threat that takes priority.

"First of all, anyone who claims that Islam threatens Western Civilization is idiotic. They threaten ALL of civilization. Meaning, if they're ever stupid enough to nuke us or Europe, then they will get nuked. They will not win this war. We have too many resources. So enough with the "days of camels" rhetoric. It's idiotic."

I'm not so sure about the likelihood of the West retaliating with its own nukes to a nuclear attack by an Islamic group. First problem, assuming it comes by truck or boat rather than by missile, is figuring out where it came from. Do we strike at all of the Muslim world? How many of those killed would be "innocents" like those in Lebanon, and if you did catch the guilty party, would it ever be known or acknowledged? How fair or "proportionate" would it look for the United States, with the world's largest economy and so many nuclear weapons, to incinerate the mostly innocent people of a backwater third-world nation who were "only" expressing their anger at being taken advantage of by the evil First World (or some other such rot)?

Frankly I have my doubts that the nuclear arsenal could ever be used against a state smaller than Russia or China and seen as a justified response. More to the point, do the Islamists think we would retaliate on a scale to destroy Islam itself, or do they think we would stay our hand?

Not to mention that there are other ways to overrun a culture besides direct attack. For example, taking advantage of high immigration rates into that culture's geographic territory along with the inhabitants' tendency to bend over backwards to accommodate immigrants' practices and values while decrying, disavowing, and deconstructing their own culture and values beyond recognition. Head over to Gates of Vienna and read through Fjordman's posts for a look at the immigrant situation in Europe, particularly Scandinavia. While I'm not sure I agree with him on the level of organization behind what he describes, the possible outcomes are troubling.

"I believe this is a "war" that we have to "win" but like the Cold War it cannot be fought through violence. It must be fought through diplomacy and the markets."

I say it will take a mix of both. Short of annihilating Islam (yes, I think it's a ghastly proposition too), we're left with either isolating Islam (good luck filtering out the moderates from the radicals; we'd probably have to quarantine the entire region) within its current borders (which will lead to humanitarian disaster for Muslims and economic disaster for the oil-deprived West) or try to accelerate a reformation within Islam, if such a thing is possible. We'll need diplomacy and markets to infect the region with values like real tolerance (not dhimmi pseudo-tolerance), women's rights, and democratic self-governance, but we'll need force to protect those seeds from the radicals who will commit any atrocity to stop them from growing.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 6:06 pm | #

First problem, assuming it comes by truck or boat rather than by missile, is figuring out where it came from. Do we strike at all of the Muslim world?

No, you just pick a Middle Eastern country, claim it has WMDs and had ties to 9/11, then take it over. And anyone who doesn't think this is a good idea is a "libtard moonbat".

Also you throw in some tax cuts.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 7:18 pm | #

"WE HAVE FLAWS TOO"?

Yeah, BUT they aint nothin compared to this..
http://www.sullivan-county.com/w...w/ cul_death.htm

So, where is the Muslim outrate?

Where is the Leftist outrage?

Islamofascits and their Leftist enablers are scum.
QED
ytba | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 7:21 pm | #

Gutless Anonymous: "And anyone who doesn't think this is a good idea is a "libtard moonbat"."

And you somehow think this is a bad thing?
darwin | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 7:22 pm | #

> All across America gay Americans stoof up for freedom and condemnded the barbarism of Iran.

... after voting for Kerry in the last election.

Oh, yeah.

HEY, let's all grab hands and sing "Kumbaya!", everybody!!!

THAT will solve the world's problems!
Oh Bloody Hell | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 7:31 pm | #

> sgtted, what do you call "bullshit" on? Here is the article from the Independent (UK) reprinted on CommonDreams, which shows that "Israel's High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with their spouses."

That's racism.

...Or it could be common sense.

Israel is a Jewish state. They aren't saying they can't marry. They aren't saying that they will be KILLED for marrying someone not of the Jewish faith.

All they are saying is that if you are from the place where everyone is attacking them from, they aren't allowed to move there simply by virtue of marriage.

Given that 1/6th of the population is currently of Palestinian/Arab descent -- and given that said people are often NOT decrying the actions of Hezbollah -- even when they have their own children killed by Hezbollah's rockets!!! -- I can't say that I'd find them to be likely candidates for being "good upstanding citizens".

ANY nation has the right to exclude from entry someone they deem undesirable, and, while it may represent a specific class in some cases (for example, the USA could certainly have done the same with Germans, Italians, and the Japanese during WWII, and no one with sense would have had an issue with it) -- that does not make it "racism" -- or at least, not in the sense of "mindless racism" which is the real issue anyone with SENSE (yes, this excludes most liberals) cares about.

When you have an implaccable enemy extolling the desirability of your extermination, you don't invite him into your home simply because your daughter was foolish enough to marry him. Take him out to dinner, yes, by all means, give him a chance to earn your trust on the individual level -- but ask him to spend the night?

NO.

Hell No.

.
Oh Bloody Hell | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 7:41 pm | #

The problem is that you've been raised to this foolish lack of the basic grasp of terminology.

"ALL Racism is wrong"

"ALL Discrimination is bad"

Really? You don't think discrimination can EVER, EVER be a good thing?

OK, I'll tell you what. I've got this shiny new dollar bill. I'll trade it with you for that dirty fifty dollar bill in your hand.

What? You don't want to? You can't do that, you're discriminating between pieces of paper just because they've got different numbers on them!!

Oh, I see. So SOME discrimination IS acceptable to you, then?

So perhaps the Israelis are discriminating not because they have a problem with Palestinians for being Palestinians, but ARE discriminating against them for the fact that most Palestinians are -- by their own choice -- sworn enemies of Israel. Now, if someone of Palestinian descent were already an Israeli citizen, somehow, it would not be (ahem!) kosher for them to discriminate... but to choose not to allow in someone *likely* to be your sworn enemy?

GET REAL.
Oh Bloody Hell | Email | Homepage | 07.31.06 - 8:00 pm | #

KK,

There is no universal right even here in the USA for a foreign born spouse to be allowed entry into the country. Surprise! Is that racism too?

If, say, Mexicans were blowing up busses in Los Angeles, do you think we would have a liberal attitude towards cross border migration of any kind?

If my country were under daily attack from a "country" like Palistine. I would demand that none of them be allowed in MY country using a flimsy cover like marriage to gain entry to possibly commit terrorist acts.

Funny how you don't bitch about the lack of Jews in Muslim countries yes?

Funny how you come here and misrepresent a news article to call Israel "racist" when the very nature of modern Islam is racist, mysoganist, homophobic bigotry in action, to include lots of dead Jews.

Quite frankly you are a moral retard.
sgtted | Email | Homepage | 08.01.06 - 9:14 am | #

> First of all, anyone who claims that Islam threatens Western Civilization is idiotic.

At this precise instant? Or in the general run of things, with their fanatical "join or die" attitude and incessant grasping for nuclear arms?

Are you really so idiotic as to be unable to extend into the long-term the meaning of events such as the rioting in France, the cartoon controversy, and the Iranian race for arms into a future where nothing is done to stem the tide which those events presage?

I realize that may be too many unusual words for you to understand, assuming you really are that idiotic, but if so, I think it quite clear who the dimwitted idiot is...
Oh Bloody Hell | Email | Homepage | 08.01.06 - 9:03 pm | #

> Also you throw in some tax cuts.

Ah, you mean those ones which have reduced the increase of the federal deficit even more rapidly than the Bush Admin predicted?

YEAH!! Let's have more of those!!

(and I note here that I'm being honest about the effect -- unlike during the Clinton Admin, where the same thing occurred and it was claimed as "reducing the Federal deficit", which is another ball of wax entirely -- and the "conservative media giants" didn't argue with the misuse of terminology at all.

Whack, mr. whacko.

Come on back for more, y'here?
Oh Bloody Hell | Email | Homepage | 08.01.06 - 9:07 pm | #

"reduced the increase of the federal deficit?"

What the hell kind of nonsense is that? Reducing from spending like REALLY drunken sailors, to spending like moderately drunken sailors, does not a healthy economy make.

Whack this, asshat.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 08.01.06 - 9:23 pm | #

what a nice blog. thanks dr. sanity.

ytba, thanks for your thoughts and refs also. i appreciate.

m. Kohut/Kernberg, your interesting posts. Freud references. cool.

i appreciate the many thoughtful comments here.

m
meaux | Email | Homepage | 08.10.06 - 8:05 pm | #

All nations have racist and bigoted policies and laws, including those that keep people in lower classes. Israel is no exception, but neither are the nations in the European Union, or the United States for that matter. We call India the world's largest democracy, yet they maintain the caste system.

It serves no one to label Israe racist, and to pretend that other nations are not. To do so is to only defend the point that people are holding Israel to a standard that most Arabic and Islamic nations are nowhere near capable of.

Further, you cannot speak of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict in isolation, as if it is occurring in some sort of bottle. The Palestinian side is supported on all sides by countries who desire the immediate and permanent end to Israel. You can argue whether Israel should have been placed there to begin with (50 years ago), but that seems pointless. It is now home to millions of Israelis.

The true conversation must be centered around how these people will live in peace, and to that end, I have much more faith that, with peaceful means of change, Israel has a greater chance of moving and ending its bigoted policies and practices than I do in its neighbors.
Tony O'Rourke | Email | Homepage | 09.25.07 - 3:32 pm | #