Yah, but. In my view, although you are totally on the mark about everything else under the sun, you are way off base regarding other animals . . . In my view, we exist on a spectrum, with each species having fine-tuned its responses to its own particular evolutionary environment. I know from watching my own two cats that they do, indeed, have an "intervening rational process between emotion and action." When they sense possible danger, they are all ears, eyes and sniffing the air, but there is a pause during which they decide whether it is something big or not really anything to worry about after all.
I forgot to mention, a related post at my blog the other day, "They neither recognize their mortal enemies nor have the skills to fight for their own survival:
. . . That seems to us to be what's wrong with the politically correct rhetoric of the left, both here and in the larger world of elite "thinkers" worldwide. Like zoo-born animals that have never had to deal with the vicissitudes of their natural predators and prey "out there," these reality-challenged folk neither recognize their mortal enemies nor have the skills to fight for their own survival.
http://sisu.typepad.com/sisu/
200...dent_kenne.html
"We are concerned that the terror apologists at CAIR may have succumbed to fear and prejudice based on the stereotyping of normal people who are rightfully suspicious of Muslim terrorists and their apologists. We call on the relevant psychiatric authorities to investigate whether improper psychological defenses are being employed by CAIR."
SCAIR (the Scouters of Corrupt American-Islamist Reactionaries)
Sissy,
There is an interesting book that came to mind when I read your comments: "Waking the Tiger" by Peter A. Levine. It is about trauma and it explores..... I'll quote from the blurbs: "...why are animals in the wild, though threatened routinely, rarely traumatized? By understanding the dynamics that make wild animals virtually immune to traumatic symptoms, the mystery of human trauma is revealed." (Maybe a little hyperbolic there, but well worth the read.)
Dr. Sanity,
This was a great post. This line caught my eye and I have a question: "This defense is notable because it is one of the only psychological defenses that can be voluntarily and consciously deployed." (re: Dissociation)
I always thought dissociation was subliminal. What is it, then, when one goes into a dissociative state without realizing it?
I'll give one of the most harrowing examples I have experienced and one which was explained to me as a 'dissociative state'.
I was visiting my parents for a day and left to drive the approximately 70 miles home. (My parents are the source of some trauma for me.) I drove out of a large city onto the Interstate, and about an hour later 'came to' just before my exit. I remember almost coming undone when I realized I had zero recall of the drive. I had to pull over to get myself together....from what, I don't know....other than it was precisely that I didn't know where I was for an hour while I navigated my way home.
Make no mistake this strategy will become more exploited by certain Muslims in our midst. Which is basically acting out borderline behavior in public situations to be able to point to the responses to it as racist. The strategy is to do just as you said, make people hesitant to acknowledge their fear or concern out of political correctness. A political correctness which has a first rule of "thou shalt not risk offending minorities". Its an attempt to push the envelope of acceptable behavior and acceptable response.
Ive about had enough of protecting minority "sensitivities" at the expense of the majority being silenced and placed in compromising situations as a result.
Im afraid of approaching stray Pit Bulldogs. Does it make my response irrational if the Pit Bull turns out to be friendly? We all play a game of odds in life. Thats why virtually all of us (finger pointing minorities included) would be less likely to approach a stray Pit Bull than we would a stray Golden Retriever. Its not fair to the friendly Pit Bull or to the unfriendly Retriever either. We do it because we are unconsciously playing the odds in any given situation. Its nothing that a little tail wagging by the Pit Bull or teeth snarling by the Retriever couldnt easily remedy on closer inspection.
If youre a passenger on an airplane in todays post 9/11 environment, heres a bit of rational advice. Try to be a tail wagger and not a teeth snarler.
To me, it's interesting that only 3 of the imams began to pray. If they were only doing it because it was the proper time for prayer for good Moslems, then why didn't the others do it?
If you deliberately act in a manner that causes innocent civilians to be afraid, then that's the very definition of terrorism. Terrorism doesn't require violent actions. It's the resulting fear that counts.
And terrorism is aimed at more people than those in the vicinity of the bomb or box cutter. Harm some, scare more. Scare some, remind many more that they should be afraid.
And if that was your plan all along when you got on that plane, then you are a terrorist. These imams should not be apologized to until an investigation has ruled out any malicious intent.
And if they claim it was just a joke, then remember what happened to all of those who "joked" in the past about hijacking planes or having bombs in their luggage. Maybe these imams need a reminder.
SteveH expressed my views perfectly. It's clear that these Muslims are trying to undermine our defenses by crying "racism, etc." and by purposely creating situations that are unclear. There were several similar incidents in the recent past--Muslims who wanted to teach kufrs a "lesson"in an airport; Muslims who rode a Florida school bus and demanded special attention; the famous Syrian band, who may or may not have been scouting for another hijacking.
We must TRAIN these Muslim supremacists that they cannot push us around.
By their acts, the ROP Muslims are progressively showing themselves to be, on balance, no more than mindless minions of the Islamofascists.
Their probing and testing acts must not be tolerated here. But Dem. Chicken Dhimmis are still Chicken Dhimmis and so will most likely not pursue even their own vaunted isolationist, non-military, wot.
As usual, it will be left to us.
BTW: it has been discovered that one of the imams is an organizer for a front charity, KindHearts, which raised money for Hamas. This adds another dimension, don't you think?
I think we are reaching a tipping point where tolerance for Islam will rapidly switch to disgust openly displayed about the truly disgusting things displayed by practitioners of that religion.
If the civilized world concluded that people should be ashamed to be known as Muslims, and if this were overwhelmingly obvious in the media of most civilized countries, what would be the effect?
This could turn the Islamic shame culture back on itself, with marvelous results. When (maybe I should say if) the west gets over its illogical attachment to multiculteralisn, this could happen rapidly.
Phoenix- the defense of dissociation often is not conscious, but it also often is. Many people choose not to "see" things that make them uncomfortable or conflicted. It's the "I don't want to know" kind of strategy.
OTOH, the unconscious can use dissociation to protect us from some overwhelming awareness that threatens our self (see my post--" A Classic Case of Hysteria" link in sidebar).
Right about fear.
Sometimes rational, sometimes not, but you can't always wait around to find out. That would be stupid, or suicidal.
Phoenix, in my own totally anecdotal experience it's not that uncommon for people to have zero recall for a familiar drive, or a part of it, while still accomplishing it competently. But it's always startling the first time you realize it's happened.
I've noticed it on one occasion and know other people who have reported it and were equally worried about it. In these cases there has never been a "trauma" to blame it on.
In other words, I see it as normal and benign until proven otherwise, except that you can't tell if you were driving as well as you normally would during the time you don't remember.
At any rate, I think that once you are aware of the possibility, you can prevent it. It sure scared the sh** out of me, too.
It's also happened to me on many "jogs". I can't prove to myself I even did them except that when I
'come to' back at the starting point, it's exactly when I would have otherwise finished.
>>Which is basically acting out borderline behavior in public situations to be able to point to the responses to it as racist.>>
I call it conditioning. It isn't the racist connotation they're trying to achieve, although racism is the claim they make in order to defuse objection, it's the objection in the first place. No reaction, all is normal is step one. Achieve that, and the next step is identification. After that is expectation, and after that is prosecution. Otherwise known as dhimmification.
Thank you for your comments. Without belaboring any boring details, I'll throw in here that I have complex PTSD. You would not know it if you met me.
I wonder about this: "..the unconscious can use dissociation to protect us from some overwhelming awareness.." If we substitute 'hypervigilance' (however subliminal) for 'overwhelming awareness', not that the latter does not lead to the former: I wonder if there is a biological function in the brain that says 'Enough, we are shutting you down for a moment.'
I ask this because from early childhood, I often find myself going into what I called 'stares'. My eyes would unfocus and lock, but I was perfectly able to talk, function, and in later years as a teacher, teach. I often got caught as anyone around me during these 'stares' would wave their hands in front of my face and mostly laugh because I was able to respond although I was sometimes unable to 'unlock' until I forced it.
What I found during these times was that I felt good. As I got older I recognized how ridiculous I must have seemed in that state, but I didn't care. The pleasure of the 'stares' was like an addiction and I couldn't stop them. Obviously, I've been in therapy, and no shrink or therapist has ever been able to 'name' what the 'stares' were other than to say they may have been brief moments of dissociation. But.... I was completely conscious and functioning and aware that I was in a 'stare'. Odd.
The biological point - I just wonder about that and how it might be that our mind is its own master at times.
That article says that they were praying in the airport terminal, not on the plane.
I'd say that throwing people off a plane for praying in the terminal is pretty damn irrational. I mean, there are over a billion Muslims who aren't terrorists who pray, so it doesn't make much sense to throw these guys out unless you have a irrational fear of all Muslims.
There seem to be conflicting reports about what happened. Some reports say the prayers took place in the terminal, others say on the plane.
I agree with Josh that praying in the terminal is not a reason (by itself) to take anyone off a plane.
I can understand that people would be alarmed if they really did stand and pray on the plane. I also agree that the imams should certainly have realized this would alarm people. If that's what happened.
However, I'm a little suspicious of that claim. When would they have been standing and praying on the plane? During boarding? Certainly possible, but I wonder.
Also, note that the imams claim they were never asked to leave the plane until the police arrived. They also deny that they chanted "Allah" while leaving.
AFAIC, the jury is out on this.
Josh, if thats the case it does change the situation. There are just too many variables that those of us not on that plane arent privy to. Like how many people were made uncomfortable and voiced concern? What was the body language and just how much fervor was in this supposed prayer? Was there courteousness exhibited by this group or a noticably taunting type attitude?
You may be right that the whole incident was irrational on the part of the passengers. Im going to give the airlines actions and the passengers concerns the benefit of the doubt since they were the ones there. The last thing i want is our airlines safety hamstrung by silly political correctness pressures to avoid hurting someones feelings.
Fear was a driving force that enabled me to become relatively successful in life. My parents were far too permissive during my developmental years, and I was really left pretty much high and dry as far as skills are concerned. I had no real local options when leaving high school, and I had to launch myself into the real world ALL ALONE.
I was not prepared, and I was scared to death. It was time to sink or swim. I chose the latter. Thank God I did .....
Running away from those crashing buildings in NYC has left me with a fear of all Muslims...I don't believe it is irrational. This fear is exacerbated by the fact that my silly government refuses to "profile" those who are most likely to kill me.
In any case if they were praying in the terminal, a secondary security search and interrogation should have been enough as long as they checked out. No need to let them board the plane then pull them off. Airport security should have been shadowing them in the terminal in the first place.
Am I an islamaphobe?
Wr_guy . . .
Political correctness has definitely exacerbated the situation. If we could trust the authorities to do their jobs, then we could relax. But we know that they're wasting time and efforts checking everyone and not using common sense in their checks. It's "common sense" that's needed in many more cases like these.
If I were brusque to airline officials, I know I'd be thrown off the plane. Why should "imams" get special treatment. They're the ones preaching jihad and conquest.
Fear of living on
- natives getting restless now
Mutiny in the air..
- got some death to do
Mirror stares back hard -
Kill, is such a friendly word
- seems the only way
for reaching out again....
Let 'em boycott USAir. Each and every last one of 'em. That would suit me just fine.
Promethea, where does it say that these imams are preaching jihad and conquest?
Alot of people seem to think that any time a group of Muslims are praying they are asking Allah to bless their next suicide attack. This is laughably irrational.
Caution is not irrational. It is a survival technique and the last few years have taught us to be cautious around Muslims. If they want us to start trusting them, it is up to them to prove themselves worthy of that trust and until they do we are fools to give it to them.
>>A lot of people seem to think that any time a group of Muslims are praying they are asking Allah to bless their next suicide attack. This is laughably irrational.>>
Why is it so irrational? They pray in Arabic, so we - at least most of us - don't understand what they are saying in prayer. They might be asking for their next suicide attack to be successful - or they might not. We don't really know. It isn't as if they don't ever _do_ suicide attacks - although they only do one. Still - 9/11 _was_ a suicide attack, and there are certainly enough of them done other places. Why do you think it's so irrational to assume that they might be done here? What do you think protects us from suicide attacks?
As for the jihad and conquest...yes. It's part of islam. If you haven't realized that by now, you're in denial.
Given a choice, I'd rather be subject to irrational fear than in denial. Maybe I'd still be alive at the end of the day!
Someone said you can't cook a frog in boiling water - he'll jump out the instant his feet touch the water. You have to put the frog in cool water and gradually raise the temperature to boiling. He'll just sit there till he's done. That's what I see them doing to us.
suek: Bingo! The imams' behavior and CAIR's defense is just another way to acclimate us all to shari'a. From within through escalating provocative behaviors and through manipulation of our laws, the proponents of the "Religion of Peace" challenge our culture and American mores.
All cultures, all nations have unwritten rules of acceptable social behavior. Respect for American pulbic cultural behaviors apparently is not in the Koranic playbook of these imams.
Josh, put your money where your mouth is. Get on a plane with a bunch of guys not sitting together start chanting. Don't freak out, don't talk to the stewardess, Josh, that's so rascist. Remember, you can't get upset until they actually start trying to take over the plane. Otherwise, everything they said and did has perfectly innocent explanations {/sarc}
Im tired of being an AMERICAN as defined by all these media talking heads and miscellaneous dysfunctional citizens. Im supposed to act and behave differently since im part of a successful culture? I have to show compassion for persons from hideously failed cultures that behave irrationally? Thats bullshit and i wont buy their bullshit if they scream it at me 24/7.
We're starving for American leaders with an American voice.
JPeden: Give your little "Dhimmicrats" cliche a rest. Please. No one here is talking about Democrats. Every Democrat that I know would for the most part agree with all of this.
Jeff, What planet you been on the last 6 years? You cant have Bush lied, no NSA spying, terrorist need civil rights, no Muslim profiling, no blood for oil, Haliburton is evil, record breaking economy is in shambles, Lieberman cant refuse the koolaid, Michael Moore and Oliver Stone are historians, swift boat vets are liars, Rove is a criminal, Rumsfeld is a war criminal and John Kerry is a war hero.....and say its not about the democratic party.
This blog youre reading wouldnt even exist if it werent for the dysfunctional behavior of the democratic party.
If I had seen a Pentecostal Christian speaking tongues whilst boarding a plane, I would have said something, even though I am unaware of any Pentecostal Christians using an aircraft to commit mass murder.
Considering that Islam is the only "religion" that promotes the mass murder of innocents as a path to paradise, the passengers had a duty to report the imams' bizarre behavior. It would have been grossly negligent not to.
The coverage by national media on tonight's broadcast news [ABC & NBC] that I watched did not mention the connection of the Imam Shahin to a Hamas "charity."
What a surprise!?!
Also, their refusal to accept the seats they were assigned makes it appear that they were acting as agents provacateurs, attempting to create a "cause celebre" to arouse radicalism in quiescent Muslims in the USA.
That wouldn't surprise me at all.
Why is it so irrational?
Because the vast, vast majority of Muslims aren't terrorists? There are millions of Muslims in the US and they pray five times a day as part of their religion, so it wouldn't be that odd to see a group of Muslims praying in an airport.
uek: Bingo! The imams' behavior and CAIR's defense is just another way to acclimate us all to shari'a. From within through escalating provocative behaviors and through manipulation of our laws, the proponents of the "Religion of Peace" challenge our culture and American mores.
Nice conspiracy theory. Do you honestly believe that these imams and CAIR are part of some cabal that seeks to impose shari'a on the US?
If so I would love to see some evidence.
Josh, put your money where your mouth is. Get on a plane with a bunch of guys not sitting together start chanting. Don't freak out, don't talk to the stewardess, Josh, that's so rascist. Remember, you can't get upset until they actually start trying to take over the plane. Otherwise, everything they said and did has perfectly innocent explanations
Don't misrepresent the situation. By all indications the imams were praying before they even got on the plane. That said, I don't think seeing some Muslims praying would bother me very much. Even on the miniscule chance that they are up to something, I don't think that they would draw attention to themselves by praying loudly in Arabic before they even get on the plane.
"Steve H",
I don't know if you actually know any Democrats. I am one. And, frankly, I do believe Bush lied, and that the "Swift Boat Vets For Truth" are liars, and that the war in Iraq is because of oil.
But all of that is irrelevant right now. I can tell you in all honesty that I, along with all of my Democrat friends, would see a big red flag if Muslim imams started praying on our plane.
For once, could we forget all the Republican/Democrat pigeonholing and talk to each other as fucking Americans?
Jeff:
Your side CANNOT act the way they did for the last 6 years (see above) and accept what you say in your previous post on face value. Are you that naive? Do you LISTEN to your elected leadership of the Jackass party?
Jeff, the swift-boat veterans told the truth, it was John Kerry who lied.
More from the "intervening rational process between emotion and action" front from this morning's London Times;
Smart school of fish expose stupidity of a popular myth . . .
Fish are not the brainless dolts they are often assumed to be. Scientists have discovered that they are actually adept learners, with distinct personalities that change as they pick up information about the world.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
art...2464852,00.html
I don't know Sissy, the fish around these parts here are pretty stupid. One time I caught and released the same fish 3 times in a row...the 4th time he bit my hook, I took him home and ate him.
>>Do you honestly believe that these imams and CAIR are part of some cabal that seeks to impose shari'a on the US?>>
Yes. Although I'd substitute "religion" for "cabal".
Ghost of Josey Wales: It sounds like that fish had a thing for you. Love is blind. 
I, like many others expressing viewpoints here wonder why we have to be cognizant of the Imam's practice of prayer (only three were praying? What did the other's do? Play "Old Maid?") than the Imam's should be equaly cognizant of the perpetrators of 9/11. Or do they still think it was the work of the neo-cons and Jews?
Now, where did I put my headache medicine?
Josh: "Alot of people seem to think that any time a group of Muslims are praying they are asking Allah to bless their next suicide attack. This is laughably irrational." Where is your evidence that a lot of people "seem to think that any time..." Laughable indeed!
I've experienced the forgetting of drive over a familiar course, I suspect that is a case of: perform a routine, nothing unusual happens, so nothing get committed to long term memory. Nothing new, nothing to remember.
I far different case happened to me once in collage. I went to the cafeteria for breakfast with a queasy stomach, and at the sight of the fried eggs, my vision blacked out. I knew there was no one immediately in front of me, so I moved forward in the line and my vision came back. I decided to skip breakfast that day. An unsettling experience.
Josh:
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/
Follow the links to get a feel about how broad the sources are.
Scroll down to the profiles of notable CAIR personages.
Nurture your paranoia. It needs cuddling.
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