You can see this acquired narcissism all around in areas like politics. Although, I have to say, some of the politicians and movie stars have quite a bit of narcissism to start with--even more than their talent would suggest. Narcissism is not the same thing as self-esteem.
Sorry to insert this Dr. Sanity, but ther is no e-mail link. Although I read blogs like yours, I don't write them. Here is a $40 blog program that is free for today only. Please delete this on reading, don't want to mess up the discussion. Thanks
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link-
http://www.giveawayoftheday.com/
Dr Sanity, I would like to speak with you about doing a possible interview. Please email me back a good contact number.
Don
That astronaut is also a mother to three children. I use the term 'mother,' loosely.
How she could do what she did- and not think of her kids before the fact, is beyond me.
Her story will resemble that the Palestinian terrorist that gets caught, and then claims to be a good parent, and how much they miss their kids.
Wanna bet her lawyer offers to send her to rehab?
I believe much of this comes under the heading of "When you seek to deceive people the only person you deceive is yourself." It is why you see those in the Arts and Politics stumble so badly when the truth comes out.
Actor are touted so heavily for less than quality work continously by an industry that lives on spin just as politicians do. It gets to the point that one begins to notice that never have so many people given themselves so many awards for so poor a product. Ask yourself how many good to excellect movies have you seen in the past few years? If you are honest the number is exceedingly low compare to 50 years ago.
The same can be said for politicians. How many principled politicians have you seen in the last few years? If your are truthful the number is so low that if it were not so prevalent we should be embarassed as a country. I am not sure what draws such poorly qualified people to these professions. Maybe it is insecurity that requires constantly being reassured by those who would make you think you are better than other people. It might even explain why Hollywood type spend so much time putting down the country and those who make them stars. A sort of any country or people who would think we are good cannot be worthy of respect.
Through the grapevine, you "heard about it the other day." Really? You must be clairevoyant--I thought it happened just yesterday?
Monsters? Seems a little harsh. Just because you don't [seem to] like them doesn't make them monsters. And where are the other incidents (and don't cite "inside sources", I'm just as inside as you ever were) that qualifies the use of the plural?
And, I guess you were more or less asleep at the wheel during your time at NASA; it isn't the "Agency" that makes these folks out to be superheroes, it's all the people (like you) who want to get to do the things they do, but can't, that make them into Uber-humans.
Get some perspective, Pat.
Saw the booking shot for this woman, and thought - "Dang. She looks like she's been on crack or something."
Seems like she's really spun off the deep end.
J.
Space madness takes it's toll. I mean look at your comments about astronauts being celebrities...other than Armstrong, john glenn and sally ride...and the people involved in this mess, I bet nobody can name an astronaut without looking!
"it isn't the "Agency" that makes these folks out to be superheroes, it's all the people (like you) who want to get to do the things they do, but can't, that make them into Uber-humans."
anon 10:01 am.
Merely pure projection, anon. And btw, malignant narcissism is as monstrous a condition as is the very same condition which your mirror tells you you have.
Why do you like to see your reflection also in print?
I sorta hate that the media is making such a huge deal out of this. It's like they're happy to see "one of them" fall from grace--just like a politician or celebrity. I mean this kind of nutty stuff happens all the time, but it's a HUGE deal because she's an astronaut? I guess it's newsworthy, but not to the extent it's become.
Anonymous: Why should anyone believe you're an insider? You're ANONYMOUS. Your idea of "inside," for all anyone knows, is that you cut the grass at an astronaut's house. Yard boy.
"...I bet nobody can name an astronaut without looking!"
madmatt
I can't name many Hollywood Stars, either, O Mad One. Does it follow that they don't exist as Stars?
"...I bet nobody can name an astronaut without looking!"
madmatt
Speak for yourself. And ditto what J. Peden said as well. Nobody said they're celebrities, anyway--they were COMPARED WITH them. RTFP.
"...I don't do psychological consulting for NASA anymore." You never did. You are a fraud.
""...I don't do psychological consulting for NASA anymore." You never did. You are a fraud."
Devil's Advocate
Well, at least the Devil's Minion has himself covered by his moniker.
I suspect the sad Fliberals here do but lament a fallen comrade, known by her acts. Yet do narcissistic children authentically grieve? Let's watch.
"Anonymous: Why should anyone believe you're an insider? You're ANONYMOUS. Your idea of "inside," for all anyone knows, is that you cut the grass at an astronaut's house. Yard boy"
What you, or your moronic ilk, believe or don't believe is of absolutely no consequence to me.
"Merely pure projection, anon. And btw, malignant narcissism is as monstrous a condition as is the very same condition which your mirror tells you you have"
And, Mr. J Pederast, I frankly don't give two rats asses about astronauts; they're just people, and people make mistakes. I don't idolize them, and I certainly wouldn't want to be one. That help with your misplaced aspersions?
"That help with your misplaced aspersions?"
Anonymous
No. Thou hast been protestingeth too mucheth ab initioeth.
What you, or your moronic ilk, believe or don't believe is of absolutely no consequence to me.
So Yard Boy, it begs the question: why are you even here running your mouth? Do you actually think anyone cares about what you believe? Sounds like that "projection" remark was spot-on!
Mr Anonymous- no one expects Uber-humans from NASA- no one.
In fact, what makes astronauts and the space program so appealing is that the rest of us see through the image. The only ones who don't know you put your pants on, 'one leg at a time' like the rest of us, are the NASA people themselves.
NASA has been promoting and nurturing the 'I am a humble Superman' myth for decades and too many astronauts and other NASA apparatchiks believe that crap.
On the inside, NASA is just another government agency, prone to producing the same monuments to pettiness and mediocrity as every other government agency.
The only difference between NASA and the DMV is that NASA isn't answerable to the people who pay their salaries.
I suspect NASA would implode if they actually had to be held accountable.
"You are a fraud."
Let's stop being childish here, shall we. If you're jealous, start your own blog.
Attn., noble Fliberals: you'd get closer to the target if you tried to hit it with the first shot, rather than telling us all about yourselves.
"On the inside, NASA is just another government agency, prone to producing the same monuments to pettiness and mediocrity as every other government agency."
s,c,&a
I saw the cat come out of the bag when NASA decided to take lay people into Space. At first I thought it had to have been a poor joke. Soon, however, the DMV-like humor sunk in, and very similar to that of the Faux Liberal posts above.
There was an episode of "The Simpsons" where Homer went on the shuttle, with predictable results.
Dr. Santy, if you were still with NASA this person would probably be your patient, is that not so?
This story got a LOT of airplay on local (Los Angeles) morning drive-time radio. A lot of on-air speculation re the inventory she took with her to "scare" the other woman --
BB pistol, four-inch knife, rubber tubing, garbage bags, and adult diapers. Lots of comments re the adult diapers.
IS ISLAM THE SOLUTION?
In response to negative publicity, NASA has hired an Islamic consultant to help re-train it's female astronauts to ensure that this never happens again.
Upon completing the program, graduates will receive a certificate, a can of Kibbles'n bits and a chewable squeek-toy.
It appears NASA did a better job of selecting astronauts before the psycho experts entered the process.
____ 2007: A SPACE ODDITY ____
** EPISODE TITLE "99.999% SANE" **
When I saw the movie, "Martian Chronicles" after the Ray Bradbury S.F. novel, I didn't think it was terribly realistic because of the way the astronauts were portrayed as having some very petty and violent disputes. Surely, I thought, a profession that is so demanding would virtually completely exclude such unstable individuals, and the LIKELYHOOD that they would go pshychotic and violent could be considered to be nil. Guess I was wrong.
It's that .001% that'll get you, every time.
Thank G-d she didn't go over the deep end when they were upstairs.
My first thoughts when I read about this was, "how embarassing". Does this woman have no sense of shame and embarrassment?
Then I read that she has a husband and three kids. What about them, especially the three kids?
This just blows my mind.
Mind you, I am no social conservative or a prude, but the people you have the long-term relationships with are supposed to be the ones you think about when conducting your day-to-day life. This is just basic common sense.
I am still trying to wrap my mind around this one. As the church lady would say, "This is very special".
Amour fou. Crazy love. It can hit anyone, even naval officers.
And it gives everyone else the chance to pronouce how THEY would never act that way, oh no...THEY would never choose to loose their grip, their balance. THEY will always be good.
This is like a bunch of baby chicks pecking to death the one with a deformity.
"Dr. Santy, if you were still with NASA this person would probably be your patient, is that not so?"
You sure your last name isn't a little more Arab-sounding than Solomon?
A remarkably insensitive treatment of this otherwise accomplished woman, without benefit of examination. Sort of akin to Frist diagnosing Schiavo via videotape.
Why don't we wait and see if maybe she is suffering a legitimate medical condition before we brand her as an insufferable narcissist?
Varifrank had an interesting comment regarding this story:
"My first thought when I read this is that at Mess Halls around the world and in the galleys of Aircraft Carriers are men and women who were turned down by NASA, who after reading this story realize that their slot into space was taken, not by a better pilot or aviator, but by a crazy woman. You will be able to tell who they are because they will be rather animated in their speech patterns and perhaps a little more honest than usual about their assessment of other pilots. I'd stay away from them today if I were you. They are likely to be a very bad mood."
Link
Sorry... my link to Varifrank's page is a bit hard to see in some browsers. Here's the URL:
http://varifrank.com/archives/2007/02/
astronaut_love.php
Rel Repub-- off hand, I can't think of any medical conditions that make you go on long drives with a gun, pepperspray, etc to chase after the girlfriend of someone you have a crush on.
"This is like a bunch of baby chicks pecking to death the one with a deformity."
IanC
Regardless of the exactness of your analogy, that's how Nature culls the mutants, Ian.
"Why don't we wait and see if maybe she is suffering a legitimate medical condition before we brand her as an insufferable narcissist?"
Reluctant Republican
She's probably already one of the most health-inspected people in the World. I'm sure her lawyer will turn up something, though - perhaps Fliberal "love".
But I would like to know how she votes, you know, just for the sake of "Studies".
I realize your specialty is pretentious, bubbleheaded doggerel, but this effort is a truly remarkable.
The NASA celebrity culture--like the Washington political culture and the west-coast Hollywood culture--creates these monsters by the uncritical adoration and reverence they give to anyone with a certain job description.
There's not a damn thing in this story even remotely suggestive of celebrity culture or Hollywood excess or a sense of entitlement. Though this behavior is obviously a reflection of some kind of obsession and desperation, only some ideologically driven nutjob could somehow turn it into a story about "west-coast Hollywood culture." Oh, and that's still not enough vapid speculation; let's toss in "narcissism" "sociopathy" and "psychopathology" to boot. After all, who cares about those silly criteria of examining or speaking to or knowing a damn thing about a patient, when you can provide a highly specific psychological diagnosis based on a three-paragraph newspaper story.
I think we can all agree it's a good thing that no one has any interest in having you conduct psychological evaluations for NASA. Based on your talents and analytical skills, I'd say you ought to play to your strength: pet psychic.
Oh, yes, and you're quite right that "astronauts private lives [should not] be the subject of Hollywood gossip columns." Kind of like the one run by Fox News-owner and rightwing pornographer Rupert Murdoch in his rancid cesspool, the New York Post. You know, the one that featured an item the other day about octogenarian Marlene Dietrich singing for some guy while he spanked the monkey.
I'm hardly what you call a liberal, so you can't characterize me that way, but this "acquired narcissism" is just pure pycho-babble.
Astronauts treated like they were celebrities? Get real, if one of them walked into me I wouldn't know. However, I'm sure I would realize if Jennifer Anniston walked into me.
The woman went crazy in a jealous rage, it happens. You don't need to find a category to put it in. Crazy happens, to everyone.
I'M NOT A DOCTOR, NOR DO I PLAY ONE ON TV
. . . but I do have 2 cents to spare.
"People who suffer from paranoid schizophrenia often maintain well in school, work, or social situations until delusions, often persecutory in nature, cause them to act out in violent ways."
http://www.publications.ojd.stat....us/
A108593.htm
"Murder and attempted murder in the setting of a stable marriage was almost invariably the result of serious psychiatric illness."
http://www.publications.ojd.stat....us/
A108593.htm
Well, that's my guess, anyway. It may not be exactly right, but I would wager it's close.
"I realize your specialty is pretentious, bubbleheaded doggerel, but this effort is [a] truly remarkable."
This drivel, coming from a lawyer, no less.
Clearly, there is no shortage of pomposity and ill informed wind in the legal community.
Thank you for reinforcing the well deserved reputation for shallow mindlessness in the legal community.
You do not qualify yourself as intelligent when opining on matters that are clearly out of your sphere of comprehension.
If you do that in your legal profession, you are not serving your clients.
Then again, you are an attorney. Why would that bother you?
that had to leave a mark.
"The woman went crazy in a jealous rage, it happens. You don't need to find a category to put it in. Crazy happens, to everyone."
J.R.
Even the diapers? Speak only for yourself, pretty please. But what kind do you use, just in case the urge strikes me to go kill someone?
legaleagle: Thank you for your pretentious, bubbleheaded doggerel.
J. Peden,
What are you talking about? Who the hell cares or is referring to diapers. Grow up already. No one treats astronauts like Hollywood movie stars. That statement is just garbage, pure and simple.
This story makes me glad I don't do psychological consulting for NASA anymore.
... As terrifying a thought as has ever been posted in the blogosphere. What happened, did they catch on to your political abuse of psychiatry?
I think we can safely file this all under "News of the Weird".
"Because people are people, and the world is full of tricks and twistiness yet undreamed of."
-- Space Colonies, by The Whole Earth Catalog
POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE OTHERS, AS WELL?
"All three members of the triangular relationship sketched by NASA astronaut Lisa Marie Nowak are military officers and could face consequences in their careers if facts emerge that document improper fraternizing or sexual behavior."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story....de/
4530330.html
"What happened, did they catch on to your political abuse of psychiatry?"
Why don't you just keep talking concerning things you know nothing about? Do you think psychiatrists are supposed to be touchy feely left wingers?
Even for the amateur psychologist, the postings on this thread are a treasure trove. Such wild swings...
The job title "astronaut" is just that: a job title and description filled by...a human being. I have come to know three, and I have treated all of them as I treat everyone else: with dignity and respect. They have responded in kind.
But they are only human, and Lisa Marie has succumbed to something which is often known as a "middle-aged crisis". I managed to survive mine, and it was equally senseless as hers has been.
Having the benefit of having had it 10 years in my past gives me the above perspective...and my child support payments attest to my willingness to accept responsibility for my actions while I was busy being stupid.
My greatest fear is that after she comes down from all of the adrenalin, she looks in the mirror, says "My God, what have I done?!!" and takes her life.
Attempted murder is a very serious charge...this is not fun and games anymore.
"Everyone goes south
Every now and then..."
"The Stranger", Billy Joel
"Rel Repub-- off hand, I can't think of any medical conditions that make you go on long drives with a gun..." Foxfier/Sailorette
And it's precisely such off-handedness based on ignorance to which I so strongly object.
Some of us actually can name a few medical conditions. At this point nobody can say with any certainty whether she does or she doesn't have one. I'm merely suggesting we wait until the predictable media sex/murder/astronaut frenzy dies down long enough to find out what's really happening here.
Or, if you have some axe to grind, you can go ahead and rush to judgement. Either way.
I knew a girl who was into mallets, diapers, garbage bags and outer space. But maybe this isn't the the right website for going into more detail..
Rel Rep
It would be more believable were she not part of an elite program where such things are screened for.
Now, if she were an elite support technician----well, let's just say the customers pushed her to it The physical and mental health screenings for my job are....less stringent.
I feel sorry for her parents if theyre around. In one day they went from a daughter whos an astronaut to a daughter thats a nutcase in jail. Thats quite a range!
Wonder if they'll serve her Tang for breakfast?
OK, here's a topic where maybe I can throw in something. No, I'm not a psychiatrist. But I have trained quite a few astronauts and cosmonauts. (Dr. Santy, if you want, email me, and I will be happy to verify this.) And I've written crew procedures and training manuals for astronauts.
Back when I started the first training program I was involved in, I made a decision that turned out to be a lot more critical than I realized at the moment. My decision was this: training astronauts was going to be just another job assignmnemt for me. An interesting one, to be sure, but still just a job. And that meant, among other things: No photographs with them. No asking for autographs, or souveniers, or any such. Just go in and do the job.
And you know what? I think they appreciated it. Not being treated as a star, that is. We were able to cut through a lot of the crap and get right to the job. I honestly think they get pretty sick and tired of the star treatment. Maybe there are a few that like it, but not any of the ones that I met. I did observe one thing about them: once you become an astronaut, your life is no longer yours. Every astronaut I met had handlers who had their entire day mapped out to the minute, every day. They had no time to themselves at all. And an awful lot of their day consisted of things like publicity appearances and press conferences and so forth, where they had to repeat the same stichk over and over again. They all seemed to appreciate an opportunity to talk about the experiments and the underlying science and re-connect with their whole purpose for being in the astronaut biz in the first place.
I agree with Dr. Santy that NASA tries waaaaay too hard to micro-manage their reputation and the reputations of the astronaut corps. I guess we've now seen proof that it really is enough to drive anyone crazy. Seriously, it is about time to let the astronauts be people again. After all, you never know what kinds of personalities will respond positively under any given situation. I recall one astronaut a few years ago who was more or less black-listed by the astronaut office for being a bit too much of a free spirit. But when the chips were down, he really came through.
Extraordinary work requires extraordinary personalities, and sometimes that can mean extraordinary vices/problems. Now, these are REALLY extraordinary! I suppose that line of work may pre-select for obsessive types, but still...
As far as the Pampers goes .., she's not a man, who can stop the car and reflect that the universe is his urinal, and scorpions are no worry unless they have learned how to fly.
Still haven't figured out what she planned to do with all that. Shoot me with pepper spray, then point a BB gun at me, and I suspect I could make things interesting, and make the BB gun go places that nature did not intend. Not to mention that most people, upon being followed by a strange looking person in a trench coat, might have some slight suspicion. And upon the strange looking person running up to them, shouting strange things, might be a bit defensive, or reach for that .45 in the glove compartment before continuing the conversation. Or at least commence to run (very hard to do much good with pepper spray against a person who is fleeing, since the user themselves is running into the cloud).
Tho I must say, if I were the victim, I'd be asking the prosecutor to dismiss, or at least drop things to a misdemeanor. I mean -- this lady may be pretty strange, but her entire life has been ruined by it. She's going to get fired from her chosen career, probably divorced, unemployed and unemployable... give her a weekend in jail and time with a professional (like a year or two) and some public service (because she'll not have any money to pay a fine by the time this is thru).
We'd be a lot better off as a nation if people thought twice before they did something destructive that would hurt their families - their parents, siblings, spouses, and especially their kids. Knowing that your family respects and depends on you used to inhibit all sorts of excessive, selfish behavior. Not anymore. Now our parents, siblings and spouses are there to make excuses for us and our kids are reduced to mini-me accessories.
Dave Hardy,
I think you've taken one too many tolerance classes.
It seems quite well planned.
Diapers so she can drive there fast enough that she later claim an alibi.
Fake gun and pepper spray to threaten the victim and make them incapacitate themselves.
Rubber tubing to bind without rope burns.
Gloves to avoid fingerprints.
Plastic bag to kill them with after they are incapacitated.
What would have happened if the victim hadn't been lucky?
Found in car in canal in a few days. Time of death not totally certain. A colleague had made verbal threats, but she would have had trouble getting from Texas to Florida and back in time. Besides there are no witnesses saying they've seen anyone of her description in Florida.
I'd expect her to be smart enough not to leave easily recovered traces of the planning on legal pads or hard drives either.
I'd say its more than 50/50 that she would have gotten away with it, more like 75/25. The only things against her were bad luck and unforseen circumstances.
"Dave Hardy,
I think you've taken one too many tolerance classes."
They work on road rage too...
Referring to astronauts as "monsters"? I think any rational person would agree that Pat Santy is a complete idiot. This is indicative of an inferiority complex from someone who was around others who had accomplished more in their lives than she. This tragedy for CDR Nowak is probably the best thing that has ever happened to Pat Santy.
Now she can finally get back at all those astronauts she's always hated so much.
Ursus Maritimus, I think you are right on the mark, no rest stops means no witnesses, and a realistic-looking pellet gun has no paper trail. It seems she wanted more than just a verbal confrontation with her rival.
Astronauts have always been about putting forth a public relations image for NASA. Moreso today than ever. If robots looked better in group photos they would probably be the only space station residents.
Why is it that the legal system is allowed to get away with postulating assumtions?
Could it be that it's because it's not a legal system anymore but a revenge system?
In Pennsylvania, you can be sentenced to life in prison without a body or proof that a murder has occurred.
What would Perry Mason think?
How controversial is it to suggest that Astronauts are human beings first, and subject to the same emotions and problems that all human beings are? The attacks on me are completely over the top. I am discussing the NASA culture which promotes a superstar image that could pervert even the most normal of people if they believed they hype. Of course all astronauts are not "monsters" (that term is used because it goes with the idea of narcissism gone berserk)--they are extremely capable and intelligent individuals--but they are definitely human. Like all toxic cultures that cater to the destructive side of narcissism (and NASA is certainly not the only one), the NASA culture emphasizes the narcissistic traits (we all have them, people) of this one group and does a great disservice to them and to us (the public). Cousin Dave has it right in his comment. Most astronauts are perfectly aware that they are not very different in personality motivation or skill than other workers at NASA and are uncomfortable with all the attention. But some do suck it up and actually believe the hype.
NASA's hype has come back to haunt it in the public reaction to this tragic story. Would we have had all the headlines splashed all over the national media if this had been a fireman or police officer (both heroic occupations, I think) who acted so strangely? When you base your justification for funding and public attention on the idea that astronauts are perfect specimens of humanity, then your fortune will rise and fall in accordance to public perception of those same astronauts. NASA has managed to focus the dream of space exploration into the personality of the astronaut. The public has bought that image and the romance surounding it. However, I would have to say that almost all the dedicated people at NASA--the one's you don't hear much about: the flight controllers, the engineers;the scientists; the trainers--are equally essential to the realization of that dream.
Isn't this a bit of an overreaction to one incident? My observation has been that astronauts, as a group, do seem to be more accomplished, stable and mature than the general population.
Would we have had all the headlines splashed all over the national media if this had been a fireman or police officer (both heroic occupations, I think) who acted so strangely?"
If the policewoman or firewoman were wearing diapers we would!!
I agree Dr. Santy, that Astronauts are human, but I would hardly say they are treated like stars. Maybe inside the confines of NASA they are, but outside they would easily go unnoticed to the general public. It is news because you wouldn't think someone of such intelligence (and of which there are so few) would succumb to such basic instincts, essentially throwing her entire life away in the process.
Apparently, whenever a woman - astronaut or not - does something unexpected like this it becomes a huge news item. Remember the Runaway bride? Or the teachers that got involved with their male students? We are so used to expect certain behaviors from women in general that anything out of character gets all this attention.
Reluctant Republic- noted, normal, polite conversational responsed are not to be used with you, only bile and bitterness. My bad, my folks raised me with manners. Shall you start NAMING these medical conditions?
Humans are (mostly) hardwired to vie for the affection of the opposite sex. Put men and women together in a workplace and this will occaisionally happen, regardless of edicts produced on parchment. Something like this will happen again. Someday. As others have said, how sad for the kids.
“narcissism and sociopathy”
I’ve known only two women who I’d place into Nowak’s category – driven, accomplished, charming, liked by casual observers but with serious, even scary, moral issues. But both of them had a bit of dragon lady reputation which preceded them and you could spot the sense of self-entitlement if you got close enough. So far, Nowak’s bizarreness is really out of the blue – a surprise to everyone. Maybe time will tell..
Morning drive-time talk shows are still having a field day with this. Latest headlines: "Astronuts" and "Lust in Space" (the latter being a Fox News lead).
KFI 640-AM uses both headlines, with a bumper and background music of Lost in Space theme or Space Cowboy.
Ursus Martimus:
You forgot the "newly-purchased steel mallet" she was packing besides the four-inch knife & BB pistol.
As in:
"BANG! CLANG!
Nowak's Silver Hammer
Came down upon her head!
(doo dee doo dee doo)
BANG! CLANG!
Nowak's Silver Hammer
Made sure - she was dead!"
(Sick, huh?)
Her career on this planet is over. Period. Not even a discussion point. Her sordid actions are already on world outlets like wikipedia that won't fade away like what we say on current events blogs... . Once the 'NET' has you, it's game over.
She has one thing to worry about now - and it isn't kids, ex-husband, an infatuation with somebody else's boyfriend, or the National Organization of Italian American Women (NOIAW) - it is minimizing her prison sentence. To do that she will need lots of money, lots of smoke and mirrors lawyers, and she'll need her gloves back so she can show a jury that they don't fit.
She has hurt her case a lot already by her police statement. Not much of a chance in totally dodging the attempted kidnapping charge, which in FL comes with a stiff behind bars sentence.
Best case scenario? She can beat the attempted murder rap if she gets the fat cats in the US legal system to argue for her - which shouldn't be too difficult in this case, and play the mental illness card heavily.
Indeed, methinks when all this is sinking in for her, her real lifelong battle will be depression of a depth few of you can fathom. One that never goes away... that never diminishes with time... that makes one essentially dysfunctional on many of the dimensions that people who excel need fully functioning and unencumbered. The shame she has brought down on her family, the disappointment to NASA, the joke she has become to many... the loss of everything she was will be an incredible weight for her to shoulder... She will be labeled a criminal, a felon... an all-American girl and former space traveller nolonger able to freely travel or even vote. "Friends" who haven't already deserted her, will... in droves.
I would be very concerned about her committing suicide...
Tom Gaylord
"Most astronauts are perfectly aware that they are not very different in personality motivation or skill than other workers at NASA and are uncomfortable with all the attention. But some do suck it up and actually believe the hype." -- Dr. Sanity
I thought that was clear enough from your original post.
I was a little surprised that some people were arguing against the superstar image because THEY don't see the astronauts as such. But it doesn't matter how they see them. It's only important how they see themselves.
And even though that in itself isn't going to cause them to implode, it certainly can activate/enhance an underlying condition in someone who has it..
If a system is hovering just below some critical threshold, it only takes a small push to overshoot that threshold. Then, like the o-rings which otherwise work just fine 99% of the time, they fail, and the failure is catastrophic.
Well, I understand where J.R. is coming from. The answer is that although today's astronauts may not be regarded by the general public as celebrities like the Mercury Seven were, they are still big fish in a small pond. I'm sure that all of the astronauts know perfectly well that they aren't going to get asked for autographs in the grocery store. However, within the NASA framework, they are very much played up. Every day, everywhere they go while on duty, they wear uniforms which mark them as astronauts. PAO sends them out for publicity appearances and does their darndest to play up their reputations. Each astronaut is surrounded by an entourage supplyed by PAO and the crew office. Astronauts are surrounded by an unreality cloud, and there really isn't much that they themselves can do about it. When you are surrounded by people who constantly whisper certain things in your ear, after a while you just might start to believe it, even though you know in your heart of hearts it isn't true. It's actually a sort of passive-aggressive form of indoctorination. And with that, they get loaded onto them responsibility for a lot of things that they don't have any control over. They are expected to be able to answer for all of the manned space flight community on any subject, and that's not at all fair to them.
And Dr. Santy, I might suggest that this topic merits an expanded treatment on the blog. Starting with Nowak as a touch point, we could go into some of the "culture" issues that were touched on right after STS-107, before the discussion got overwhelmed by ignorant politicians and media people.
Headless Unicorn Guy: "You forgot the "newly-purchased steel mallet" she was packing besides the four-inch knife & BB pistol."
That does speak against my theory actually. A mallet means all kinds of evidence: blood splatters on her skin and clothes that cant be guaranteed to disappear with showers and washing.
"It just keeps getting weirder and weirder."
-- Johnny Bravo, Baby!
I read that you no longer do consulting for NASA but I thought you still might have contacts to get a message to some one in mental health services for NASA.
The space agency seems to be unaware of an accidental discovery of a ‘conflict in the physiology of sight’ related to the vision startle reflex.
This problem was discovered when it caused mental breaks for knowledge workers using the first prototypes of close spaced office workstations, 1960’s. The cubicle was created to deal with the problem, 1968.
Today the phenomenon is believed to cause only a harmless temporary period of confusion and psychotic-like behavior. A grad student in Design from Australia emailed me and I learned the correct title for the problem is Subliminal Distraction.
The current story of Captain Nowak is evidence that the close-spaced living and training arrangements is causing exposure for some astronauts. The too-small single-room arrangements on space stations and orbital vehicles/capsules provide the opportunity for exposure from SD. There was a full psychotic mental break on Soyus-21.
Simple precautions can provide a level of protection similar to Cubicle Level Protection available in business offices. Handout pictures from NASA taken on the Space Station show that nothing is being done along those lines.
I posted a site so that I would be able to quickly update material and would not have to type long letters of explanation.
Organized on a topic basis it is not intuitive. Email me if you need an outline
Check recent US Navy history about situations like this and you may find a different common denominator here.
USAF does not get off the hook on the same subject, either.
.
The Army and Air Force are attempting to get control of serviceman and pilot suicides. The Navy has a unique problem called "Screaming Seaman."
I've been searching for the common demonitator for Subliminal Distraction in these situations. It may be allowing computers in "dorm room" style living arrangements without warning occupants or providing Cubicle Level Protection.
There is a suspicion that college suicides are somehow connected to computers. It isn't the computer it's the workstation where the computer is used.
Foxfier, forgive me. No bile intended. It just strikes me that "Offhand, I can't think of any..." as a rather poor argument.
Question. Do you consider mental illness to be a medical issue? Someone else here brought up schizophrenia, which is what I specifically had in mind also (having some experience in dealing with patients so afflicted).
Just for the record, however, my money is riding on a good old fashioned mid-life crisis. Don't underestimate the effects of hormonal changes if you haven't been there yet.
I dunno, I'm seeing Anne Heche in the Shipman role. That's who I flashed on when I saw her pasteled picture in the purple beret yesterday.
Dr. Santy,
I'm with Cousin Dave -- could you give us more information on some of NASA's "culture" issues that were touched on following STS-107?
Also, regarding narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder, how might a narcissistic boss or co-worker affect the mental and emotional health of other co-workers/subordinates? What kinds of behaviors might we see from those who are around people who have narcissistic personality disorder?
Mr. Tucker,
What sort of computer workstation should one use to counter Subliminal Distraction?
It would be advantageous to know more about NASA's "culture" issues that were touched on following STS-107.
I'm also interested in what little I can learn about narcissists in our space program.
RR-- that's because it wasn't an argument; it's a common north-western way of saying "You really think so? That doesn't sound right to me... back it up, please? More information is dearly needed." without the insult that such a statement can give.
Astronauts are deeply probed (bad pun there somewhere....) for mental problems, even more so than normal Navy etc. If she had a disease, it should have shown up before this-- and I don't consider every general evilness of people to be a sickness. That devalues human choice, since we CAN choose to be evil.
I lost a cousin to suicide (manic depressive) and knew a girl who *might* have mild schizo, but she was out of the Navy(with lifetime psych treatment) before anyone could find out.
I'm figuring that for whatever reason, she just chose to do something horrific like this-- thank God and all his angels that she got caught before there was a body count!
RR-- reading over that, it's not totally clear: I'm agreeing with what you're betting on.
Foxfier/Sailorette or anyone else who may be interested -- Have you ever read
"People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil" by M. Scott Peck, M.D.? Dr. Peck suggests that evil can be diagnosed, and he describes it as a form of narcissistic personality disorder. Interesting read.
Emotional Affair = 2 families broken up.
"We're just friends."
"She's my best friend."
"You are being selfish."
"You have an evil mind."
And finally .... insanity and attempted murder.
"Not Just Friends."
Foxfier - It is very easy to misinterpret the intent of other posters on forums such as this, isn't it?
I don't believe that astronauts are evaluated as frequently, as thorougly or in the manner many people here seem to believe they are. That being said, it's a sure bet that NASA will do something to avoid another such black eye in the future.
Pilots and military officers have historically been high achiever types with strong personalities. It might make an interesting theory that NASA actually screens IN people who are more than likely to have narcissistic personality disorders. It certainly makes more sense than an "acquired" personality disorder because, for one thing, there are simply no studies that support a professional predilection to NPD. In fact, it's more likely to be inherited.
Even with emoticons, tone just doesn't work-- I figure the hand gestures are missing, but that may just be my family..... ;^)
I know that as military members, they're *supposed* to be watching for signs of anything wrong-- we got four-times-yearly training on it by mandate of the CNO, and I was just enlisted. (up to a month ago, so very fresh info)
Makes sense to me, a little. Folks tend to respect type-A personalities (used purely in the common slang meaning) so long as they're on the same side....
If this had taken place between two marketing managers for Ford, the buzz would be about how this was responsible for Ford's current state of affairs. It would have vanished as quickly as it appeared.
Sociologists will tell you that despite our state of technology, Homo sapiens is still the same basic creature as it was 40,000 years ago, with the same basic instincts and desires. From office romances to road rage, we're still the same.
Even 40 years ago, things were vastly different. It has been theorized that had Kennedy lived in today's world, his perception by the public would be much different because all of his affairs would have been out in the open.
I marvel at the fact that in my address book there are the addresses of astronauts and music industry icons. And yet I belong to neither of those worlds. Like one of the posters above, I treat everyone with a basic respect and dignity...start fawning over people and you'll creep them out.
I learned this from my job, field service. Astronauts train as a team for years, I used to be sent to a jobsite with strangers and given 45 days to complete the job. I saw an engineer snap on a job in Yugoslavia in 1983, so it happens everywhere.
So now I read that Oefelein has requested time off to be, as the story goes, with his girlfriend in Florida. Back in the day, everyone involved would have just discreetly disappeared for a while, but "inquiring minds want to know" everything. Are they staying together? Is there a webcam in their "love nest"?
Are they having a good laugh about this?
Who cares? I don't. But the tabloid industry makes a fortune from feeding the finger-wagging tongue-clucking masses.
STS-116 is scheduled to launch next month. Prepare for the media to use it as a springboard for all sorts of sordid stories.
As far as Type-A personailties go, they're the sort of people that thrive on the type of antisocial behaviors that fuel road rage, such as driving up a closed-off lane to the merge point, then forcing their way in front of you.
"A" stands for...well, you know.
Dr. Santy:
Interesting morning, googling one of my past professors, after seeing you on CNN website.
Delighted to see I'm not the only conservative psychiatrist on the planet.
Thank God!
Check out the website I've been doing for my father-in-law, Lindsey Williams, a lifelong conservative writer (http://www.lindseywilliams.org/)
If you get some time, email me for an update.
David Hager, M.D.
P.S. - My faint hopes of every annotating that paper about psychiatric diagnosis in a Japanese cultural context (for the Space Station) were ultimately blown thoroughly away by Hurricane Charley.
For those of you who would cast aspersions at Pat, read this and weep:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17049013/
How do you like your crow...?
If Pat was as smart as she thinks she is she'd figure out how they could run a mission to Mars or moonbase without a shrink/Counselor Troi/armed security having to go along.
Maybe Gene Roddenberry's concept of the Galaxy Class Enterprise wasn't so far afield after all.
The concept was of a vessel able to carry families, and able to have a facility able to recreate familiar surroundings, the Holodeck.
Pat, could you tell us if the Navy has done any studies in the nuclear submarine service that could possibly relate to what NASA is suddenly experiencing?
I have been having an "argument", and I say that because it's a polite disagreement, that I believe that the "flight" part of "spaceflight" should be abandoned, and that the submarine paradigm must be embraced instead. Modern nuclear subs can stay submerged for more than a few months, and as such the Navy has certainly instituted screening programs and other real-time methods to preclude its sailors from "being human".
Someone should have seen this coming and taken the responsibility to tell someone in proper authority.
No one is immune to personal problems and some are adept at keeping them off the radar. A good psychiatrist might or might not have uncovered novaks instability if she was as smart as an astronaut should be.
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