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I blame this on the left wing bias media. Clinton was obviously behind this.
Hmm. I believe a scientific study on the effects of prayer is counter-intuitive. Prayer is a request to God -- it is neither a formula nor a magic spell.
Also, biblically, God disdains being "tested". Even Jesus said, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test". The higher rate of complications among the prayed for that were "tested" seems to confirm this.
Since prayer is a request and not a formula, you might as well be studying the efficacy of asking your friends for money. I think if your friend knew that you were only asking them for money as part of a scientific test to see if your friend would give it to you, they would be less inclined to give you the money. If God knows your heart, then you would not be able to hide from Him the fact that your request is just a test.
Lastly, if all the prayed-for were healed, would that change anyone's mind? Or would people only start coming to God and praying because they wanted something and not out of love or devotion. Consider how many people try to befriend the rich just for their money, and you'll get what I'm saying. God is not a miracle dispenser in which you put in your prayer and out pops the miraculous.
well said daniel.
This is why I pray for God's will be done. Untestable.
Makes sense which is why you see more family-less people die after an accident
what's trackback?
What's the point of prayer? If God has a divine plan, then why pray for your mom to live? God already knows whats going to happen to her.
The way I see it, if god is such a good soul and wants people to go to heaven, and you can't live a normal life and go to heaven (by my standard of normal anyway) then why would he also be untestable to further make him look like a hoax and make more people suffer? I think when they say "hey don't test this god you wont get results" it may be for other reasons than that god just has this thing where he wont answer prayers when he knows it might help spread christianity because its being closely watched. Sounds backwards. God will do anything to make people think he's fake and then Christians turn around and say God wants you to believe in him. Apparently God doesn't have a brain if this is so.
goddamned quiet insulting god
Sam, Zatheist - You don't seem to understand the nature of prayer. Prayer is not a series of words meant to "inform" or "convince" God. Prayer is a form of communication.
It is said that humans look at outward things (like words used, clothes people wear, colors of skin) but God looks at the Heart.
A true prayer is the outward expression of the cry of your soul. Let us ask ourselves, "What is a person REALLY saying when they pray to God and ask Him for help?"
Here are some things I think are going on in a person's soul when they cry out to God. They are saying:
1) This situation is beyond my control.
2) I believe that ALL situations are in God's control and therefore He has power to change this situation.
3) Experiences in my life have shown me that God cares about humanity at an individual and personal level.
4) I wish to share my WHOLE life with this loving, benevolent God - both the joys and the sorrows.
Finally, God wishes to interact with His creation. Part of interaction is communication.
What is the point of inviting your closest friend to a funeral of a relative if they already know the funeral is taking place? If you can understand the point of that - you will understand the point of asking God for providence.
specifically to Zatheist:
God has not been silent over the ages. Please read this parable and pay special attention to what Moses says towards the end:
http://www.biblegateway.com/pass...Luke%2016:19-
31
err. I mean Abraham.
(sorry for the triple post)
Well I think the whole study was a waste of 2.4 million dollars. No duh pray dosen't help surgery.
Daniel, I would disagree with Abraham on that last part. I know that I, for one, would convert to Christianity in a heartbeat if a truly miraculous event happened, and I think the dead rising from the graves counts either as miraculous or daemonic, depending on whether it's in true life or undeath. Anyway... by ressurection, I mean today, not long ago after any evidence of such an occurance has disappeared. You see, a true ressurection would be hard evidence of supernatural occurances, and that's what a lot of Atheists are asking for (or at least the ones I know, as I'm not one myself). I have no problem with the idea of a deity or deities, I'd just like a little more than someone's word on it before I commit my entire life to it. Does that make sense?
Still, the question remains. What is the point of praying for your mom to live, if God already knows her fate? Surely, God already knows what’s in the heart of the person praying. Does he just assume everyone wants their mom’s to die, unless they state otherwise?
Azrael,
No matter what, if a resurrection occurred in the present day, you would have to trust someone's word on it. It would be reported by someone, and that report would be called into question. The source would probably be ridiculed as a religious lunatic (as many of the apostles are accused of to this day). And consider if YOU were the reporter. How would the nations react to your report?
Sam,
Is knowledge of the road the same as driving down it?
You are thinking in terms of "statements" and "information". Jesus says, "Out of the overflow of your heart, your mouth speaks." Many people do not cry out to or turn to God. In these cases, God does not generally intervene in the natural course of events. Here are some thoughts on miracles by a smarter man than I am: http://drulogion.blogspot.com/20...ys-
miracle.html
One must also understand that praying for one's mom to live is just asking for a postponement of the inevitable. We all die eventually.
So in other words, god does not have a whole plan for you, you can control him and make him intervene with "outcries from the soul" but not "information". So you are gods boss. Understandable. God, make my balls shinier. Ding! Hooray! All I needed to do is know that driving down the road is totally different than knowing it! How could I be so stupid.
What if there really is a god and he wants no gullible people in his paradise so he created religion on earth to weed them all out. Sorry Daniel, all your pretending god is real is only going to lead you to the REAL god's punishment of living in a 5x3 foot room with mirrored walls for infinity.
But really, this god is totally loving and caring and totally loves everyone. He would practically bang us, even little babies, he loves us so much.
But since he created us he knows how easily he can recreate us so he enjoys his free time of not having sex with little babies by creating natural disasters and watching them in his big chair with a thing of Truman's Double Pop popcorn and sending jews to the mirrored rooms whether they are religous or not, and then just watching them. It's totally true. I had a sign. It was a miracle. That was enough to have me convinced of this, the rest of ya'll are non-believers.
Zatheist,
You obviously and intentionally misunderstand what I am saying.
I did not say that God does everything you ask Him for. Often, God answers our requests with a "no". As to the rest of your nonsensical rant, I don't feel I am obliged to respond.
I know it was totally ridiculous. I mean a god that totally loves everyone yet will sentence them to such torture for infinity? Nonsensical.
It still makes no sense.
I’m sure thousands of people prayed for Hurricane Katrina to hit where it wouldn’t cause much damage and death. However, it did anyway. The fate of the Hurricane had already been known to God. He knew what damage was coming. Everybody’s prayers failed to change anything and were a waste of time and effort.
I would imagine God would already know we didn’t want the hurricane to hit New Orleans? So what is the point in telling him so? And even when people told him, the hurricane still wiped the city out.
What is the point of prayer if God already has already decided what’s going to happen?
Sam,
What is the point of sharing with your friends things they already know? Let's say a tragedy has befallen you. All of your friends know you are upset about it without you having to tell them. Yet, you feel a compulsion to share with your friends the burden. It's the same thing.
God already knew the outcome of Hurricane Katrina, to be sure. We ALL know that we will eventually die. Why pray for the avoidance of disaster and grief?
Is it truly a waste of time or is there something gained from the simple act of sharing?
Not only this, but in the case of Katrina - through the act of prayer and meditation, one might be inspired to also help the victims in a practical way.
So in other words god didn't do shit but to make the hurricane and deny prayers, because it was in his "plan."
"Jesus helps those that help themselves" In other words even if Jesus was fake, the same outcomes would... outcome. Those that get far worked for it, those that don't get far, didn't work for it. Jesus has nothing to do with it. And God had nothing to do with Katrina. However we can all pretend.
God knows bad stuff will happen. But it seems like there are people assuming that we don't deserve bad stuff.
We are totally depraved. In fact, the idea of total depravity is for optimists. We are worse than that.
We all deserve much worse than a hurricane here and there. This including me *and* my three year old son. We are worse than totally depraved.
Pat Robertson is totally depraved. He and all of us deserve the worst thing possible, whatever that may be.
That's all. No happy ending. Oh, except that God looked through the tunnel of time, which he owns, and decided to pluck out a few of his elect for his own. The rest, he leaves to their depravity.
The ones who boast for being plucked by God are idiots. Those are the "Christians" who aren't really saved. They don't speak for the real ones.
The real ones are humble and don't get much recognition because they know they are totally depraved and have nothing to boast about.
God knows bad stuff will happen. But it seems like there are people assuming that we don't deserve bad stuff.
We are totally depraved. In fact, the idea of total depravity is for optimists. We are worse than that.
We all deserve much worse than a hurricane here and there. This including me *and* my three year old son. We are worse than totally depraved.
Pat Robertson is totally depraved. He and all of us deserve the worst thing possible, whatever that may be.
That's all. No happy ending. Oh, except that God looked through the tunnel of time, which he owns, and decided to pluck out a few of his elect for his own. The rest, he leaves to their depravity.
The ones who boast for being plucked by God are idiots. Those are the "Christians" who aren't really saved. They don't speak for the real ones.
The real ones are humble and don't get much recognition because they know they are totally depraved and have nothing to boast about.
By the way, haloscam is a poor commenting system. All I did is click refresh to see if more posts came after mine, and my comment got applied twice. Dur.
I saw this study reported on TV. Man! The journalists were harsh - they built up to it, like "huge prayer study following tons of people, so did it help? NO."
Does anyone know who funded the study?
I see what Daniel's saying - prayer being similar to when even atheists ask someone close to comfort them in a difficult situation. But I fear that most people who pray think they can induce supernatural intervention, which, as seen in this study, usually leads to disappointment.
So in other words prayer is actually useless unless it is for self therapy. God only answers very few prayers. However it is these certain god intervened events like someone getting ridding themselves of cancer that prayer worked for, and are not just natural occurences that would have happened without praying. No no, as soon as something good happens God takes credit, if not, than we must have deserved it.
Religion is retarded in so many ways.
Zatheist,
You don't seem to get it. Prayer is talking to God like you would talk to a friend. It's not about being "useful" or "efficacious". Sometimes God helps out through a divine act that is unexplainable by the scientific community - but usually He patiently guides you through the turmoil or brings you to a better understanding of what tragedy is and why we shouldn't inflict tragedy on our fellow human beings. God is like a good Father. He generally knows what's best for us better than we do.
Perhaps you don't understand the importance of communicating with your friends? I don't know. But, for a christian, it is important to try to align one's will with God's through introspection, study, communication (prayer) and through doing the work of Christ upon Earth. I don't understand why you think these things are "foolish".
take care,
about god!?!?!?
AGAIN!?!?!?!?
Jesus has let the people think they can get something if they talk to an emegenary(I know is noet spelled the good way) men/woman.
Yes he has really made people smarter....
things to him half the world is schizofrenic(ofcourse he didn't found religion, but he claimed to be the son of god)
"Perhaps you don't understand the importance of communicating with your friends?"
Yes I can see how the fact that I think praying to god is contradictory to other parts of an already ridiculous religion leads you to that conclusion.
"Perhaps you don't understand the importance of communicating with your friends?"
Of course I don't know the importance of socialising with friends if I'm not religous!
After all someone that doesn't talk to mythical figures with there hands in clapped position has got to have been brainwashed by some cult!
"emegenary(I know is noet spelled the good way)"
-Me
Close enough by my book. It's spelled "imaginary," related words being imagine (to dream), and imagination (someone's dreams or capability to dream).
"However it is these certain god intervened events like someone getting ridding themselves of cancer that prayer worked for, and are not just natural occurences that would have happened without praying."
-The Zatheist
Well, I didn't mean to imply that. I more meant that it was POSSIBLE that divine intervention took place. No one knows because it is an untestable hypothesis. Another untestable scenario is that aliens intervened with technology inscrutable to our detection. These are possible events, but since we cannot gather data on them, science does not make a ruling.
However...if we can elucidate mechanisms based on the laws of the universe that allow for recovery from cancer, etc., science can say that natural healing likely occurred.
daniel, the point seems to be that when you pray, the only person whom you are actually helping is yourself.
Can we all agree on this at least? If we follow through with your analogy that talking with God is like talking to a friend, then we see that talking to a friend about a horrible event does nothing to stop that horrible event, but it DOES help your inner turmoil.
This study, as well as the points that SamT made, seem to make a good case for prayer not actually achieving anything for the person or thing that you're praying FOR, but being beneficial to YOU (and if you say that God enjoys the conversation, I guess to God as well).
"God disdains being "tested"."
I just love this one... By saying that, the religious folks can invalidate whatever test results they don't like.
I bet none of them would say it though if the test had shown prayer HAD helped.
"I"
azrael
"do"
The Zathiest
"your mom"
Sam T
twas me.
2.4 million & no conclusive results.....
Lets spend another 3 million & see if toating oversized femir-shaped sticks through the desert will magnetically draw us to water!
Oh well, preying for health is equal to the BS of a doctor's bill. "I'll ask you some questions that I expect you to answer yourself, & you give me $250, m'kay?"
lai lai, 3 million on stick& water research... thats no a bad idea...
Lai-Lai - that's already been and being done:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing
Esn - for the most part, I agree. However, my personal experiences and anecdotal evidence from people I trust have lead me to believe that God does intervene on some occassions.
Mick - You're right. Some studies have shown prayer to "work" in some cases. Christians have generally embraced these studies. Human beings generally tend to embrace the things that support what they believe and denigrate all else. Even atheists do this.
Zatheist - Why are you so bitter and angry?
I was actually kind of surprised that this was the outcome of the study. Typically people's afliction will heal or worsen depending on their mental outlook. So you would think that prayer would help for the same reaon that laughter supposedly helps.
maybe god just hates them.
"So you would think that prayer would help for the same reaon that laughter supposedly helps."
-Future President
The authors of the study claimed that when groups came and prayed, the sick person felt social pressure to recover, which raised anxiety and decreased survivability.
Who would've thought. ; )
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