The Education Wonks
I don't usually take the liberal side on any issue, but here I am forced to do so. I certainly would not have lit a flag on fire myself, but I don't think the teacher should be fired for doing so. The teacher accomplished something that many teachers don't have the ability to do, the teacher got his students fired up (pun intended) and thinking. I hope that the district looks at the rest of this teacher's record.
Andrew Pass
http://www.Pass-Ed.com/blogger.html
Yeah, I think you're missing the boat on this one. It doesn't seem clear what safety precautions the teacher took, but there are ways to use fire safely in a classroom. He should probably have cleared the demo with his principal first, but he was engaging in a form of constitutionally protected speech as a way of getting students to tackle a controversial issue in writing. He didn't take a stance himself (from the sound of things) and try to influence student politics. And he certainly got everyone's attention. While this demo isn't for everyone, I definitely don't think it's worth firing him over it, and it's nowhere near some of the other stuff teachers do to qualify for a Darwin Award...
I appreciate how you didn't really take a stand on the issue.
I actually saw some emails that were sent to my local NBC affiliate and people were pretty outraged. But lets review...Current events and those involved (namely the administration) have used scare tactics to invoke these kinds of feelings in Americans.
It's also easier to be outraged than to think about the situation and make an education conclusion.
So much of education is feed--spit back up I'm glad to have any means that allows students to think for themselves. I never really understood that until I got to college. I would have fared better had I been more intellectually engaged.
Thanks for letting me know that becoming a teacher will also include a voluntary resignation of my constitutionally protected freedoms of speech and expression.
I guess the decisions of SCOTUS have little impact as long as there are closed minded parents (and bloggers) to do their job for them.
Don't get me wrong, there's a Darwin Award in here, but it's not for Holden...
Isn't "flippin' the bird" also a form of freedom of speech? Try that in class and see where it get you.
Burning the flag in the role of a teacher is just as insulting...
Oddly enough, I agree with the first two comments. He wasn't badmouthing his country, according to your report--he did something designed to inspire emotion for a legitimate classroom purpose.
As much as I can't believe it, if the facts are as you've reported then I stand with this guy.
We have the right to do all kinds of things, but there is such a thing as using good judgement. Doing things that are outrageous and offensive to a lot of people in order "to get them to think" might be appropriate in a college classroom, but doing this in a K-12 classroom shows a complete lack of common sense.
Do teachers who do things like this realize how much damage they are doing to the rest of us and what we're trying to do? I was watching good ol' John Gibson on Fox News a little earlier, and do you think he isn't having a field day with this? How about all those swell folks in the "Exodus Mandate" whose goal it is to get a million parents to take their kids out of public schools? Does anyone think they won't use this for everything it's worth? They already preach that public schools are part of a plot to indoctrinate kids into communism. This ought to help them convince a few fence straddlers.
Part of having rights includes using good judgement about when and where to exercise those rights. This was a case of incredibly bad judgement. If I can't get my kids fired up about a subject like this without actually burning the flag in my classroom, then I need to find a new profession. What's next for this guy? Maybe he can find an obstetrician who's willing to perform an abortion in the classroom. Hey, that ought to really get those kids to think!
Darwin Award for sure.
One more point. (This one's got me fired up!) I'm wondering if the people who support what this guy did would also think it would be okay if he'd have burned a Koran in a classroom made up largely of Muslims? Or would it have been okay if he'd have worn a Ku Klux Klan robe into a classroom made up largely of African-Americans?
We purposely did not take a stand on this one, (not having all the facts in hand; only the MSM spin on the matter) although we think that firing the teacher would be an over-reaction on the part of the district.
I do agree with Andy Pass that the teacher used incredibly bad judgement (considering that the nation is currently at "war") as he is working in a K-12 environment where he needs to be aware of the community's standards.
Guessing, I would say that there will be some sort of discipline metted out to Holden.
As teachers we do not check our Constitutional rights at the door.
But as employees of an organization we need to be aware of our employer's expectations.
First of all, buring anything in the classroom is usually illegal and will get you nailed by the admins. It is a serious no-no that I've seen teachers fired for.
As for buring the flag, although I'm for the protection of a person's right to burn the flag, the classroom is not the place to do it. I understand the frustration about "leaving our rights at the door", but I think that this is more of an argument for common sense. Is showing pictures of aborted babies, and then having kids write about it acceptable? What about buring religious books (as stated before)? Throwing darts at a picture of the President (I'm picking Carter)?
For the record, I would not burn the flag, but I agree that we are protected to do so as a form of protest. However, as teachers, we need to have more common sense than to simply act out on really extreme ideas to engage our kids.
Alternate idea: Show video of someone buring the flag. Recap the situation behind Texas vs. Johnson (which is hilarious in itself- a man burns a flag at the Republican National Convention, in Dallas- he's lucky to be alive). Read parts of the Majority Opinion in Texas vs. Johnson. Comment on that.
You don't need to burn the flag.
I don't really have an opinion yet on this particular case, but I have one quibble so far: people need to realize that freedom of speech is NOT absolute. Blasphemy, you say? C'mon, it should only take a few seconds to come up with a few examples...the most popular one being shouting FIRE in a crowded theater.
A kindergarten teacher who swore constantly in front of his students would be dismissed, and I don't think many people here would have a problem with that. Teachers are not allowed to do or say anything and everything under the protection of the First Amendment.
I like EdWonk's bifurcation of employee rights and employer expectations. I'm usually one who stirs the mud, but not by doing something like burning flags.
To be fair, I saw a story yesterday (I was sick and didn't bookmark it) about a GEOGRAPHY teacher who was fired because he had non-US flags displayed in his GEOGRAPHY classroom. That is surely just as idiotic as this.
I (A almost three year student Of Stuart Middle) Although I do not persnoly know Mr. Holden think that he had a strong point that he felt he needed to make...
Maybe making it the way he did, was NOT the most responsible or smart choice he could have made but, Those student who Have been past students of Mr. Holden seem to think that there was some point to this attempt to inlighten his students...
There have been sevral people to say that maybe he should have shown a movie on Freedom of speech...
While this might be true, lets go back on what sevral students have said about Mr. Holden "He always shows movies, there must be a REASON in NOT showing a educational flim on what he was trying to say."
Think about it, a teacher who Suposably shows movies/films often for a cahnge of pace decided to make a point without the help of a pr-writen script...
It was all HANDS ON.
And why do you think that is?
I personaly do NOT think that Mr. Holden should be fierd...
For reasons I have already made obviouse.
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