Here, Here! Nice work, ED!
"Like it or not, the Carolina program was built upon a foundation of winning games, winning together, and letting the championships come as they may." (Please.)
"To the contrary, most Tar Heel fans absolutely believe that consistent winning for extended periods is the MOST important thing for the program at this time." (Yeah right.)
Clearly you directed this column at my arguments, Ed. But you are still spinning your wheels.
This "it's OK to settle for second best" argument still explains nothing. Winning games is a means to an end, and that end is winning titles. If you're just out there to play hoops and win consistently, why bother to play in the tournaments? Every sport is ultimately about taking home the trophy at the end of the season. That's WHY they play the games. Otherwise the season is meaningless.
You convince me of nothing. And I have made clear that I don't particularly have any great feelings for or against Carolina. What I DO care about is attitude as part of sport. Sport is competition. And competition has only one goal: success. And the ultimate success is championships. Anything less than that debases sport, particularly at its highest levels.
You can have your mushy "winning program." But ultimately, what does it mean without hardware? Competition for competition's sake is for those who want fun in sport. Fine.
Being the champion is for those who believe in the REASON for sport: ultimate victory over all foes. That is what sport is for me. That is why we'll never agree.
Careful Mike, that Maryland trophy case isn't looking too full. I know the NIT might have been some small consolation if you could've won, but that didn't happen. Did it? Sustained excellence is what makes any fan happy. You did make one good point, however, and that is that a program does have to win a title every once in a while to keep the fans happy, and Carolina is about due. Being a Carolina fan I would be happy with the Final Four every season, and a title occasionally. Even mighty Duke doesn't win it every year. Programs like UNC, Duke, Kentucky, and Kansas have enough pressure yearly without the win it all, or your season was worthless. Any Carolina fan out there would be happy to tell you that they consider this season, especially, as a great success, whether or not a National Championship is the outcome.
Why does every comment come back to Maryland not having trophies? My whole point is about striving to win them. That is why this season was so disappointing for Maryland fans: we had the feeling that the team really didn't care.
Regardless of what is in anybody's trophy case, I am making a general point: games are played for the purpose of winning titles. Certainly it's fun to have a "winning program," but why content yourself with falling short every year?
If you're a fan of UNC, I would have to believe that it hurts to have such a history of regular season success but so few national championships in the last 25 years. And I am talking about national championships relative to regular season excellence and expectations. We all know you have a few. But is it the failure to seal the deal more regularly that has resigned you to the attitude of, "well, at least we won a lot of games"?
Again, general concept: seasons are played to qualify for the post season and a chance to win a title. If that is not your goal, and you're content to "let[] the championships come as they may" rather than focusing solely on winning them, why bother showing up?
"So few" national championships? If I recall correctly, UNC is tied for the second MOST in the last 25 years--only Duke has more. It doesn't seem like they're "falling short" any more than anyone else--it's just HARD to win championships, and UNC fans would rather be 30-4 or so in years they don't than 21-9 (like, say, UConn). Nothing wrong with that.
I count two. One more than Maryland.
http://www.warrennolan.com/baske...l/
ncaachampions
And that's going back 30 years. Three if you go back 50 years.
Heck, go back nearly 70 years and UNC only holds three national crowns.
I count two as well (over the original 25 years)...again, tied for second most, with MSU, Indiana, Kentucky, UConn, and Louisville. Although you could go back a little farther and Kentucky and Indiana would slide ahead.
I agree UNC fans would be happier with more championships, but to label the team as one which doesn't get it done in the postseason--well, unless you're a Duke fan (over 20 years) or a Kentucky or UCLA fan (over 40+ years), I don't think you're in much of a position to talk. Maybe Indiana too. But not many are in that echelon.
Mike C,
The comments were directed at fans of Carolina who would be attacked by haters this weekend. You smell suspeciously like one of the hater crew!
Your position, based upon the facts surrounding the Carolina program, is indefenseable. It is clear: the Carolina way of doing things has worked, and worked well for the University. You call it playing for second best, I call it playing to be the best no matter what a trophy says about you.
However, check the facts: A focus on consistent winning brings championships. Carolina Basketball has more hardware then EVERY ACC program.
I pose the question to you: Would you rather do it how Carolina has done it and have 4 Nat'l titles, leading the conference in tournament titles and regular season 1st place finishes, Final Fours every 3 or so years, and international admiration for your coaching alum and top players to show for it? Or, would you rather have it your way and have what every other program in the ACC, save Duke, has?
You and everybody else know the answer. It's not that this way of doing business is wrong. It is just very different from 95% of college basketball teams because it can be. There aren't any Kentucky fans crying in their soup today b/c they KNOW they will get another chance very soon. Everybody wants to win. These players and this coach want to win: it's just not the end all for the future of the Carolina Program, and that's what it is about.....the Program! Always has been, always will be. Program-Team-Player. That's the deal!
Sorry....I'll be disappointed but take 30-5 every day of the week so long as we have another chance to get it done (especially with this group of players). Absent an NC State style program collapse, Carolina will always have that chance.
I'll take my mushy winning program (along with the National Titles, ACC Titles and 1st place finishes, and international repute for doing things the right way), and you can have your Championship focused Terps program. I'll take that bet every single day of the week (and so would your coach!)
Sorry.
Mike C,
You said: Certainly it's fun to have a "winning program," but why content yourself with falling short every year?
I know others have addresed this, but what on earth are you talking about? Dude....you need some sleep or something. Count the titles (ACC, 1st place finishes, and NCAA's) at Carolina and then try that statement again. There is nothing that indicates Carolina is content with falling short every year.
Geeez
All I have to say is that its nice to see people hating on someone other than Duke for a change.
Ed,
This conversation started originally regarding the NCAA's. I haven't said too much about ACC title or regular season titles because that's not what is at issue. Apples and oranges. I'm talking about contenting yourself, as the #2 team in the nation and a #1 seed, with less than a national championship, and in your case, a loss in the Elite Eight. National championship shots, as you could see from the link I provided earlier, are hard to come by. When you are in prime position, as UNC is, you should desire nothing less than to be the last to cut down the nets.
Falling short and being content is for seasons when expectations are low. When you're #2 with a legitimate argument for #1, you're kidding yourself if you feel fine losing before you even get a shot to play for the trophy. Give me a break.
And regarding your "hate" towards the Terps program, it's a red herring to deflect making a real argument. The Terps have never been at issue in anything I have said. But the years we did have a chance to win it all, you better believe I wasn't content to have a "winning season" with no trophy.
If you define success by the number bandwagon jumpers around the country wearing Carolina gear rather than national titles, that's your call. That's merchandising, not sports.
Mike C has already admitted he will bever understand.....and that doesn't bother me a bit. If he thinks college basketball is ALL about winning a title it should come as no suprise to anybody that he supports Maryland and their probation-rich history. If he won't accept that many Carolina fans are happy ...well I can live with that.
"When you're #2 with a legitimate argument for #1, you're kidding yourself if you feel fine losing before you even get a shot to play for the trophy."
No one is really suggesting that they "feel fine losing" (at least that's not how I took Ed's original statement)--they are suggesting that the season, if it ends right now, is a reasonably successful one. And that is true. Every good team has years their fans feel they "should have" won it (for example, Duke in 1999, the aforementioned 1984 UNC team, and so on), the bottom line is, sometimes it doesn't work out that way, and Ed's right that you should cherish the successes you have. If you have a great program, the championships will come.
And that's my final word on the subject. I can't believe I've wasted so much time defending Carolina (I'm a junior at Duke!), but UNC is a great program. Melvin Scott, Jawad Williams, and Jackie Manuel should be damn proud, regardless of whether they win two more games this year.
Geez, please stop appealing to other teams' trophy cases or envy as if that's a valid argument. Would Mike or I rather have had Carolina's success over the past 30 years than our own? Of course. Do we think that Carolina has a great program? Of course
We just don't like smug-sounding appeals to the "Carolina Way" and pretending that championships don't matter. And if championships really don't matter to followers of the Carolina Way, then we don't like that part of the Carolina Way.
Every other team is playing with the goal of championships. When you say you don't care about championships, please understand that it reeks of sour grapes, whether that's true or not.
It is one thing if you're arguing that the "Carolina Way" will yield more championships in the long run, but I don't see you arguing that.
As Mike has noted, it just sounds like you're making excuses before the game is played.
-Hater
As a life-long, hard-core Colts fan, Ed, I cannot even begin to comprehend your argument. Perhaps UNC is tied for the second-most titles in history, but as I've heard reiterated in the sports world so many times, "What have you done for me lately?" Now back to my comment about the Colts. Sure, we have one of the toughest offenses in the league. And we clearly have the most talented quarterback, arguably in NFL history. But we've never won a Super Bowl. Were Payton to retire tomorrow (God forbid), even though he broke the NFL total TD record last season (among others throughout his near-perfect career), he would be remembered as one of the greatest QB's in history - to never own a title. There would forever be that flaw on his resume. "He was great, but..." You know, we all do, that great sports teams and athletes don't go down in history for having "great" seasons (great being subjective) or winning seasons, or for going to the Elite 8 or the AFC Championship game. But they're remembered by winning it all. The objective #1. Therefore, and it seems this is where we differ, that for powerhouse teams like UNC or the Indianapolis Colts, "almost" shouldn't count.
http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/ba...e/
accchamps.htm
Just for fun, I count 15 ACC Tournament championships for UNC since 1954. And two national titles. Sounds like a lot of hard times in the tournament for all the crowing I hear from the Carolinians.
Also, just for fun, since 2000, Maryland has more ACC Tournament championships and national championships than UNC. Like N. said, "What have you done for me lately?"
No wonder "y'all" are so full of yourselves. That's some track record of post-season dominance. Close, but very little cigar. But I guess you're alright with that.
OK, you dragged me in for one more thing. "What have you done for me lately?" from a man who's team almost made the NIT finals this year may not be the way to go.
Steven,
If UNC doesn't win the national title in a couple of days, we'll both have won as many tournament tournament trophies this year. Chew on that.
Plus, I reiterate: UNC has fewer national and ACC titles since 2000 than the Terps. The trophies in our case are a little shinier than yours.
Thank you.
Mike, that is silly and you know it.
williamo:
Shhhhhhh!!! 
Only 2 teams get to end their season with a W. Dave Odom's crew is one of them. Congrats to them, but would you trade an NIT trophy for a slot in St. Louis with a chance to win it all? Would anyone??
The idea that every other squad in the country had a lousy, disappointing or underachieving season because they went out on an L instead of a W is ludicrous.
So Go Heels. We'll be proud of you even if you don't bring home another trophy. And we'll be proud of you if you do. (Plus, we'll be wearing a smile all summer long that will drive the haters absolutely crazy.)
Here's a question:
Why is Coach K considered so successful, and Dean Smith looked at by so many people as not being able to win the big one?
I mean, there's only one NCAA championship seperating the two, and Smith owned K head to head. Why are Coach K, and the Duke program in general not questioned about being able to win the big one. If I'm not mistaken, they have lost way more Final Four Games than they have won(don't have the statistic, but would love to see it). I would say that you'd probably be hard pressed to find a Duke fan that is unhappy about their teams successes. In the end there are only 2 D1 teams that end the year with a win each season, and 1 of those actually has the right to be called NCAA Champion. Why do you think it's been so long since anyone repeated. That's the only reason that Wooden is considered one of the great coaches. Not because he won so many games, but because he won so many Championships consecutively. It's also something that will never happen again because the playing field in college b-ball is so spread out and there is so much parity. Almost any team can beat any team on any given night. Michigan State is a perfect example of a typical team these days. Struggle all season, make the tourney as a dreaded 5 seed, struggle against ODU and Vermont before finally outlasting them, then get hot for a weekend and beat Duke and Kentucky(which no matter the seedings, weren't typical Duke and UK teams this year). Does MSU consider this an unsuccessful season if they don't win the tournament? Of course not. Did they start the season with expectations of a National Championship? Of course they did. Is this a program that's used to success, especially recently? I don't even think I need to answer that.
Cont.
Point is, Championships only define success to a small degree. The only true judge of a program is this: Do you have the opportunity to bring home a championship every year? That's what the Carolina Way is all about. Playing as a team, winning games, and if everything goes right bringing home the title. That's what we Carolina fans have missed for the past few years, not Final Fours and Championships.
John:
"That's what the Carolina Way is all about. Playing as a team, winning games, and if everything goes right bringing home the title."
All style and no substance, right? Sounds like what Brazilian soccer fans say when they come up short of a World Cup trophy: as long we play a "beautiful game," it's all that matters. Bullchips!
Also, your argument about MSU is off. In your words, they struggled all season, came in as a 5 seed, and made an exciting run to the FF. UNC spent the season in the top 5, and came into the tourney #2 in the country and a #1 seed. MSU fans have every right to be excited. How many of you have them in the FF? At the same time, how many of you have UNC in the finals or as national champions? Yet going out without the trophy or even in the finals is fine? The expectations for UNC and MSU do not compare.
It boggles my mind that the Carolina fans on this site, with the championship within their grasp, collectively take the attitude that they're not resolved to win it all this year...but OK to slink back to Chapel Hill with nothing but a nice souvenier program from St. Louis.
I can't believe the Parris Island is located in NC. The Marine Corps might want to relocate to a manlier state.
Can't we all just get along?
Marines relocating -- ROFLMAO
Acronym Finder
First Mike C, then Matt:
Mike C,
I've made my argument pretty clearly and I certainly have the majority in agreement: There is more to sport than a national title. Carolina Basketball has been so programmed and has had great program success on a national and conference level. The results speak for themselves. Call it what you like: the basketball world and sports fans generally (besides you, Matt, and the haters) call it "highly, highly successful" by any measure you choose to apply.
I define success by results supported by facts. Not sure what measure you are using but if it’s NCAA championships, then everybody is playing for second to UCLA, case closed.
More on that at the bottom.
Matt:
A UVa guy calling ANYBODY "smug- sounding". The irony of it!
I'll try this one more time: I never said that winning (including championships) doesn’t matter? Your argument seems to be that championships (National) are of primary importance and all that matters in measuring real success. If you admit to desiring a program like Carolina's (historically speaking), then you MUST understand and accept how such programs are made and maintained. Duke, Carolina, Kansas and Kentucky are elite b/c they win ALL OF THE TIME, championships or not. The championships come naturally with the winning. You guys want UCLA of old: I don't!!!
When Carolina was in their slide, it was my biggest fear that the program would become like UCLA: A big name that everybody had to pay homage to, but not really feared on the national stage in today’s game. The reason they suffer that indignity is b/c they haven't done it like Carolina, Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky have since Wooden left: They haven’t won big consistently, even in seasons where there was no championship of any kind. They didn't handle home and the Pac 10 now belongs to Arizona, Washington, and maybe Stanford.
Query this (yeah, Birkel):
If UCLA had been in 95% of the tournaments since Wooden retired, averaged between 24 and 28 wins per season, won at least half of the Pac 10 titles rarely finishing out of contention, and won 0 NCAA titles, we would all look at them differently than we do, no? The National Championship in college basketball is of secondary importance to consistent dominant regular season play. Your rep is made over the long term during the regular season. Winning the NCAA title only adds jewels to the crown.
UCLA has a more recent NCAA crown than does Carolina. Now tell me, which school has the better rep with recruits, analysts, and the public at large?
Championships make your rep now. Consistent winning over the long term makes your rep everlasting and unassailable.
I'll take unassailable and give you UCLA.
Out~
Oh, Ed. I guess it just depends on how you do define success. Most people define it on how they're remembered. People remember great teams from winning championships. I bet a very small percentage of Americans can name all 8 teams in the Elite 8 last year. But everyone knows who won it all. So yes, I'd have to agree that success = championships, when you're the #2 team in the nation.
Get it straight, Mike C, I would like nothing better then for UNC to win the National Title, and I won't say there's not going to be some short term disappointment from being so close, but not quite getting there. The fact is that this season, no matter the outcome, has been a huge success and a huge turning point for the UNC program. If the title doesn't come this year, then rest assured at least 3 of the 4 players that could leave early will be back to try it again. If that happens, I would be very disappointed with no title next year, as that would be inexcusable with that much talent and experience.
N,
I remember a great UNLV team that never won. I remember a group of five players at Mich. that never won. I remember a certain Georgetown team better than the Villanova team that beat them. I remember a great St. Joes team last yr. Do you remember those NCSU teams with Corcianni and Gugliotta, or the Wake teams with Childress and Rodney Rodgers, or the NC teams with Carter and Jamison, or Stackhouse and Wallace? Of course you do. That argument doesn't fly.
N,
Pro sports and college sports are geared a little differently. I think your argument for individual stars on the pro level works, and is true. Some of that has to do with expectations that the public places on the backs of very well paid PROFESSIONALS. No more kiddie (college) games: earn your check by producing championships or shut up.
My point is true as well: The Lakers are STILL the Lakers no matter what. Winning a championship at this point is not as important for them as is finding a way to retool and get back to consistent victories. They can go for 5 seasons and not compete for a title and it won't diminish the historical status of the franchise. Let the Kings win one and then disappear for 5 years and they have a real issue.
I think, on the pro level, our points can co-exist. It really is a cut throat business and winning big, even with the giants (Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, primarily) is always going to be lurking. In the NBA, that is the case even if you win consistently during the regular season. With those teams, over the long haul nothing matters but the rings. There is such a separation with conferences giving teams more recognized and defined possibilities for validation, the pressure to win it all in college at the elite schools is not the same. You can win a preseason title, a reg. season banner, a tournament title and still lose in the Elite 8 and be considered to have had a highly successful season. Not quite like that in the pros, and so, the pressure to win is a bit different. Utah is the lone exception to the rule in the NBA. They have missed their opportunity to win it but have a high regard for the coach and so he stays. Had they won 2 or 3 championships, they would be the closest example of how my theory regarding Elite college teams would work on the pro level.
They had to deal with Jordan so people give them a pass.
Don't think the Colts comparison works, but I like your point. Thanks for stopping in.
Mike C,
Carolina just gave you a 30 pt a$$ whoopin' lately!
Since you spoke on UM: One NCAA Title win means nothing to Elite level programs, especially when you stink the joint up two short years later (and, really, last year to). Win the ACC 16 times and the NCAA 4 times......any four times. Stop losing to Clemson "thrice" in the same season and then get back in this game!
Thanks for playing 
John, thanks for setting me "straight." Finally someone came out and said they wanted UNC to win it all without qualifying their statement. There no doubt you have had a successful season, and I never questioned that in terms of wins. But the attitude that championships don't mean anything as long as you win games doesn't jive with me. Ed's position is that he cares about winning for winning's sake, or having a reputation for being a school that simply wins a bunch of games. I'm more from the school of thought that the regular season is for qualifying for tournaments. And tournaments are where success is determined. Not believing that winning them is important, as Ed argues...that they're mere icing, has to be a minority position. That 5 Carolina fans on this comment stream agreeing with him I don't think constitute a scientifically representative sampling of the viewpoints of most sports fans. Lots of meaningless wins versus championship titles. I think most people would agree that titles are what they want.
Nice try Ed. You keep going to that Maryland well to refrain from making any real arguments.
Regarding the Lakers, you think their "historical reputation" was built on just winning games, or perhaps winning an ungodly number of championships?
Ed,
I have lost track of what we are arguing about, but I am not trying to argue that national championships are all that matters. What I am arguing is that current results matter a lot, especially for a team that has hands down the best talent in the country.
And if you lose and say "well, we're STILL Carolina," it really sounds like you don't care much about current results but instead are happy that guys like Michael Jordan once went to North Carolina. And I just think that's strange, perhaps because most sports fans do not have that option regarding their own teams.
Plus, there is the sneaking suspicion that such an attitude isn't totally honest, like a rich kid who has his favorite toy taken away but then says he didn't really want it anyway and his other toys are just as good.
Carolina has a had great season, no doubt, but a loss to Mich. St. would be extremely disappointing.
and yes, I do see the UVa "smug" irony...I'd say this puts me in a great position to recognize it when I see it...
And for the record, I really don't hate UNC that much; they are no higher than 4th on my list of most hated ACC teams.
N,
Ahhh, but most Americans define historically succesful college basketball programs in 1 of 4 ways all of the time despite very recent championships: Kentucky, Carolina, Kansas, Duke. Notice that a certain from College Park that just won dosen't make that list.
Hmmmmmmm.
Matt
You said "And I just think that's strange, perhaps because most sports fans do not have that option regarding their own teams."
Exactly right. I admit that we are in a strange, yet wonderful position as Carolina fans. I also understand that irritates folks like Mike C. Just how it is. Here me now:
I would like Carolina to win it all. Period.
I believe the season is still highly succesful if they don't.
Period.
Mike C thinks he's jerking my chian, but I only keep responding to drive up page views
Later!
Matt: Thanks for your comments. Remember that we are swimming amongst sharks, here. The argument did begin, at least in my perception, that when championships are within reach based on the talent and coaching available, you shouldn't settle for anything less. Glad to have a supporter on this from our southern neighbor.
Ed: I finally agree with you on something - "Mike C thinks he's jerking my chian, but I only keep responding to drive up page views". Same back atcha, brother. Part of the fun of sports is the debate. Good luck to you and the Heels this weekend.
Shoot, it's look like we're all friends here.
But I still think "highly successful" is stretching it a bit. And yes, UVA fans would be euphoric if UVA made it to the Final Four and would consider that "highly successful," but UVA is not UNC, and that's kind of the point.
If you've got a big gun, aim high, which i am sure Roy and the boys will do this weekend.
A FEW FACTS!!
TO HELL WITH ALL SCHOOLS EXCEPT UNC...
DOOK, WEAK FOREST, EASY CAROLINA, FREE SHOE UNIVERSITY, MOO U, REDNECK U, THE OTHER CAROLINA, THE STUPID TURTLE, ETC. I HOPE ALL UNC FANS FEEL THE SAME WAY..
I HATE DOOK!
GO HEELS AND TO HELL WITH THE REST OF YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For the record I want UNC to win it all.
And Duke can win it next year.
Thank you.
Matt,
We always shoot high and achieve great things most of the time. I just don't see how 30-5 and a final four trip would not be highly succesful, especially for this group all things considered. Oh well, I guess you have to be "inside" to get it.
Mike C, I lived in Brazil and you do not even know what you are talking about when you bring Brazil into this, so back off.
First of all, Brazil has won it far more than anyone, five times and they are they only team to have won on a different continent, twice.
The statement that you used out of context means not that they are happy when they win. Rather, it means that they are only happy when they win and play beautiful soccer. Actually, this is not that different from many of us Carolina fans who have won 9 of 10 but the Heels have not looked that good doing it.
"I can't believe the Parris Island is located in NC. The Marine Corps might want to relocate to a manlier state."
Mike, you might want to relocate yourself back to geography class. Parris Island is in South Carolina.
North Carolina has Fort Bragg and Camp LeJeune.
Mike C,
I was gonna let it go, but.....
Re: Parris Island. Whoops. Wrote that while at work and didn't fact check. Guess they won't have to move the island. Camp LeJeune is another story.
Heels and Illini looked great last night. Should be a real war Monday. The key to the game for the Illini might be making sure they remember how many timeouts they have left in the waning seconds...
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