Elder of Ziyon - Comments here do not necessarily reflect the opinions of EoZ
Here's the Barghouti indictment.
From the JPost (June 7, 2004):
Out of the 37 murders with which Barghouti was charged, the court only found him guilty of five: the shooting attack on a gas station in Givat Ze'ev in January 2002, which claimed the life of Yoela Cohen; the murder of three Israelis in the March 2002 Seafood Market shooting attack in Tel Aviv; the murder of Father Georgios Tsibouktsakis, the acting superior of St. George's Monastery who was killed in a drive-by shooting on the Jerusalem-Ma'aleh Adumim highway in June 2001; and the attempted car bombing at Jerusalem's Malha mall.
So the 3 others he was accused of killing are:
Mar 5, 2002 - Police officer FSM Salim Barakat, 33, of Yarka; Yosef Habi, 52, of Herzliya; and Eli Dahan, 53, of Lod were killed and over 30 people were wounded in Tel-Aviv when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire on two adjacent restaurants shortly after 2:00 AM. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.
Elder,
this is one of your best ever posts, I think. Thank you.
Thanks, Hettie.
Soccer Dad, thanks for the correction of who he killed; I over-relied on Wikipedia and corrected my statement that he was only convicted of killing Druze police officers.
Your assessment makes a lot of sense logically but emotionally it is as hard to free him as it was to free Kuntar.
There is no escaping the fact that the left wants to free him, my only suggestion would be to use his remaining time in prison to do some behavior modification on him. Make him into the Manchurian Candidate. In fact we should do that to all terrorists with blood on their hands, since they like killing at least let them kill the ones who need to be dispatched to Allah and the 72 virgins
My point wasn't to free him (although a straight-up Shalit for Barghouti swap would probably be worth it.) My point was just to use him as an example of how even the most mature, promising Palestinian Arab leaders are still bloodthirsty terror supporters, if not terrorists themselves, and this is the major problem with Palestinian Arab society at large that the world ignores.
As Soccer Dad's link points out, Barghouti said that fighting would begin in September 2000, making it look likely that he was an architect of the second intifada, not just a participant.
You forget perhaps the most underrated man in Palestinian politics - Fayyed. He's a bean counter and a bureaucrat and IMHO so far the only leader who can make a Palestinian state work. He's also not a terrorist with blood on his hands.
He's not a hero, but he's what Palestinians need. Given the level of support for Fatah and Hamas as governments lets hope thats what they'll want as well.
Once Kuntar was released, it was clear that Barghouti was next.
I looked up the info, because I remembered about the Greek monk. (Most news reports mentioned the monk by name but don't include details about the other victims.)
BTW, today's Barry Rubin column is quite apropos. It's essentially the same argument you made.
I thought about him, but he is extremely unpopular. He has no native support, only from the West.
Regular PalArabs only get excited for the murderers.
Don't be so sure - Fatah polled very low as well. He's also in a position to create key administrative positions and fill them with his own people - and by that I mean technocrats who can actually do the job.
As I said - he's underrated and he's establishing controls on the civil part of the civil service. He may be everyone's 2nd choice which is what makes him very attractive. He does not have blood on his hands. I think he deserves a closer look.
We need a strong Palestinian leader like we need another Hitler.
Because that's exactly what we'll get, as history shows. Anything the Palestinians have that can further their cherished pseudo-national goal of genocide will be so used.
Who knows? Maybe Barghouti will be able to unite them and create a strong Palestinian economy... so that they'll have more organized terrorists and better weapons to kill the Jews with.
Give them nothing.
I did not know where to post this, and I could not find "contact" link on this blog. Still, please post this picture on your blog. It is precious: Muhammad hanged on the road sign at the entry to Danish city of Aalborg!
http://www.siad.dk/img/mo_pic1_.jpg
The sign on his chest reads:
"Pedophile
highway robber"
Other Muhammad figures have been hanged on free-way overpasses in Denmark. I have not seen this reported in regular media.
http://siad.wordpress.com/
The Muhammads have been hanged in response to Muhammedan violence against Danish Greenlander minority. The Danish state, has relocated the peaceful Greenlanders instead of deporting the violent Muslims.
Greenlanders have been
SAY NO TO "PALESTINIAN" CONFERENCE THAT DENIES ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST!
The so-called "Popular Conference for Palestinians in the United States," a large Arab conference, is planned to take place in Chicago between August 8-10 of this year, at the Wyndham Hotel near O'Hare Airport. This conference is not a mere social gathering - instead, it is a showcase for the most radical Arab "Palestinian" agenda.
This is particularly important this year when Barack Obama, from Chicago, is running for President, and many concerns have been raised in the Jewish community and among supporters of Israel about his commitment to Israel's security. That this sort of event is taking place in Obama's hometown is a travesty!
We must say no to this conference that denies the right of Israel to exist! This conference has a set of "points of unity" that attempt to delegitimize Israel's right to exist. On their website, they say that the conference is dedicated to: "return of the refugees to their original homes, lands, properties and villages; and End of Zionist occupation and colonization of Palestine, including Jerusalem." They promote the so-called "one-state solution," otherwise known as the destruction of Israel, and they are hosting workshops on infiltrating churches and schools - including "inserting Palestine into high school curricula!"
Many of the organizers of this appalling conference have been involved in similar efforts in the past. They have rejected all of Israel's moves for peace and they have been involved in every effort in the past years to deny Israel's legitimate right to exist and defend itself. These organizers have promoted anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel. They are also glorifying Sami al-Arian, the jailed terrorist!
Apparently the Palestinian community in the United States chose to be "united" on this issue - Denying Israel's Right to Exist! And we must be united on this issue - Affirming Israel's Right to Exist!
That such a conference is taking place nearly unchallenged here in the United States while Hamas and Hezbollah and their fanatic brethren continue to threaten our people in Israel and Arabs here pledge allegiance to their same destructive aims, is horrifying! This is the kind of rhetoric that is being promoted and supported by the murderous Iranian regime, coming to America!
The voices of the Jewish Community and defenders of Israel must be heard! Obama must hear from us that he must take a stand against this abominable conference taking place in his hometown. We cannot ignore such events and stand silently by while those who wish to destroy Israel organize their ranks and plan to infiltrate American institutions. It is essential that our voices are heard wherever the ugly head of anti-Semitism can be found, and this conference will be a haven for the most radical Arab voices as well as the left anti-semites that so frequently populate "anti-war" demonstrations.
Please pass
Why can Betancourt be freed, but Shalit not?
I have tried for many many years to voice the facts of " THE JEWS EXPELLED/ETHNIC CLEANSED FROM ARAB LANDS"
I still do not understand why the Jewish displaced has never been used as a weapon to counter Arab demands from their Right of return and for their lost lands.
Torah can only be relevant if it has a people to practice it, that is why
Hebrew National Identity, language, culture and self determionation go hand in hand, We are a united nation with a home land no longer a people divided in exile!
Zionism is again being attact as a racialist ideology and often compared to Nazism, Cor Fascism, we need to explain it's true meaning; A Jewish Natiobnal Liberation movement.
The whole of World Jewrys' efforts in the diaspora and in Israel, should be focussed NOW on giving the " JEWISH NEGBA" the same puplicity and exposure as the Holocaust has been given.
The Arab/Muslim properganda machine has been working and is on full steam whilst the Israel/Jewish organisations and agencies have alowed this most important fact of our " rights of Nationhood" to get side lined and forgotten.
I do not want to play the Ashkenazi Vs Sephardi/Mizrahi card! But we need some hard hitters to ensure the whole & full story is told to ensure the refugee issue of the Middle East is not reported to be just an Arab problem caused by Jews.
Most non Jews are given to understand that Jews came to Israel from Europe in 1948 and took over an Arab country called Palestine expeling the population, stealing their homes and land, This needs to be put right!
Most non Jews and even some Jews think Jews are a religious monority and not an Ethnic group of Semitic racial origins who are rooted in the Middle East! this Identity crises is also part of this Nationhood problem.
We are up against terrible miss information and tons of lies being spread by our enemies to undermine all our rights to self determination and state hood, We must shoot down all the lies, not with clever talk but with real facts, real numbers and real people.
We need to show the evidence, the personal stories, the individuals and the history behind these ancient communities, the full Megilla!
We have Holocaust museums all over the world but not one place telling the story of the plight of Middle Eastern Jewry, all 1,000,000 of them that today represent 3.5 Million people!
We need a Sephardi or Mizrahi " SPIELBERG" to initiate a world wide campaing for "Justice for Jews of the Middle East" backed up with museums and other initiative methods to educate an ignorent public, just as we do with the Holocaust Educational trust.
The Holocaust made it clear that Jews needed a home Land, but it has never been made clear who and where the population of Israel today came from and who Jews actualy are!
Lets ALL get involved in as many ways as possible but we need a central data base of facts and figures etc to ensure our story is factual and truthfull.
There was expulsion and massacre in 1948. Refugees who were not physically expelled still had a right of return.
Both Palestinians and Jews from Arab countries had a right of return. The way I have heard it,Jews in Israel were not demanding a return to the Arab countries.(Arab states that didn't drive out Jews were not answerable for it).
Perhaps my biggest difference with EOZ is the belief that the bad things have been fairly rare exceptions. I've cited examples and sources that show otherwise. If we join Mark and Teddy in declaring it all fabricated,we may as well say that Arab terror is fabricated--we rely on sources for that too,unless we witnessed every single episode ourselves.
It is to the credit of Israel that some people have been prosecuted for these things,and that they have been less often celebrated than among Arabs.
Aaron, part of my family fled Iraq after 1948. They are refugees. Your story is baseless.
"It is to the credit of Israel that some people have been prosecuted for these things,and that they have been less often celebrated than among Arabs."
I understand what you are saying and it is still maddening. There is simply no comparison. Just like Jordan's prosecution of the man who murdered seven schoolgirls in 1997 was the exception that proves the rule, so are the very few who celebrate Baruch Goldstein.
The fact is that the mainstream of Israelis simply do not celebrate the deaths of Arabs, period. They didn't in 1948 and they don't now. Israel doesn't have a holiday to celebrate its victory in 1967; rather it celebrates the reunification of Jerusalem. The visceral disgust towards Jewish terror is evident in the Palestine Post archives just as it is today.
On the other hand, mainstream PalArab thought does indeed celebrate murderers and it celebrates dead Jews. I am talking a majority of Palestinian Arabs who, in poll after poll, support terror attacks against civilians. 84% supported the Mercaz Harav massacre!
This is not a difference of degree, as you characterize it. It is a profound difference in worldview, in values, in humanity. And that's why it is frustrating to see arguments of the "both sides do bad things" variety. They are not remotely comparable.
How exactly does the expulsion of Jews from Iraq demonstrate that what has happened to Palestinians is "baseless"?
Or does Suzanne think I denied the existence of Jewish refugees? That would be just as untrue as Teddy saying--over and over--that I support Sami Kuntar.
By the way, I'm touched that you feel sorry for me because I think Arabs have rights. When I become a proper racist like Teddy,I'll lose the pity.
Mark,old man, I already said that
Jews from Arab countries had a right to return(children of Jewish refugees can claim as much right of return as Palestinians born after 1948.)
I myself don't think a national identity requires a state. A number of people-Serbs,Czechs,Albanians and,for that matter,Jewish Zionists--had a sense of nationhood when they didn't have a state.
Mark Israel:
Jewish refugees from Arab countries get no sympathy for the same reason that Jewish refugees from the rest of the Diaspora: where dispersal and occupation are generally deemed a human rights crime where the rest of the planet's peoples are concerned, it perfectly OK for Jews. Why? Because despite centuries of systemic discrimination, mass expulsions, forced conversions and even and a genocide that killed off about a third of the world's Jewish population nearly 70 years ago, we manage to regroup, thrive and brace ourselves for the next major assault on our existence.
The bad things done by the two sides ARE comparable. Doueimah, Safsaf, Quibya, Khan Yunis,Kafr Kassem,and the Egyptian schoolhouse in 1970 are comparable to Qiryat Shemona, Maalot,the Coastal Road,Munich. The deliberate and indiscriminate bombardment of civilians is comparable to suicide bombing. The deliberate killing of Arab civilians in the intifada(cf.Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International)is comparable to at least some of the killings of Israeli civilians. That fewer Israelis celebrate these things has nothing to do with the nature of the acts themselves. Zionists have to stop pretending that none of this ever happened(or that the numerous incidents are rare exceptions).
The distaste isn't quite as widespread as you suggest. There has not been a flood of remorse over the atrocities mentioned above. Nearly a third of Jewish Israelis approved of the Jewish terrorist ring in the 1980s.(a difference of degree). If Israelis don't celebrate terror that often,they have celebrated the terrorists (Begin, Sharon, Shamir,Meir Har-Zion,the killers of Lord Moyne).
The children of Jewish refugees who were driven out of Arabs lands have the same right of return as the children of Arabs that were driven out of Israel, that is to say none at all. It was a fair exchange.
It is upto the individuals to make the best life they can under the circumstances. You cannot return to some place that you have never been.
Then they should change the name of the Law of Return.
The 1948 events cannot be looked at with today's sensibilities. As bad as they were, they were in context of a war where the Arabs were killing any Jews they could find. To judge them by today's standards is unfair, especially since there were contemporaneous Arab assaults and offenses, often on the same day. And even then, they weren't a source of pride, but rather embarrassment.
The 1970 schoolhouse bombing was certainly not a deliberate targeting of civilians by Israel!
HRW and other sources you cite cannot be considered an accurate source of determining motivation, claiming that these were "deliberate." Happily taking credit for a massacre indicates deliberateness; denying it does not.
I stand by my statements - there is no comparison.
Would that be an expo facto law?
The truth of matter is that the false perception that they might be able to take the land from Israel has done a great injustice to the Palestinians. They can not go foward and they can not go back. They are stuck in a hell of their own making. It is true that they had help arriving at their current circumstance, but they remain there by their own doing.
Your statement that "there is no comparison" between Arab atrocities and Jewish atrocities because Israelis celebrate them less often is logically and morally untenable. How others feel about the acts has zero to do with the morality of the acts. Even worse is your suggestion that the killings cannot be deliberate if Israelis don't celebrate them or acknowledge them. The lawfulness of the killings under the Geneva convention is determined by the circumstances,not by anyone's psychology. This is an inhumanity I didn't expect from you.
If we want to consider mitigating circumstances for atrocities,okay,but this applies to Palestinians too. Arab killing in 1948 was as much "in the context" of Jewish violence as vice versa and there has been a context to Palestinian terror since.
The bombing of Egyptian civilians in 1969-1970 was deliberate and the Meier government didn't say the schoolhouse attack was an accident(they said "only military targets" were hit).
How others feel about an immoral act is directly related to the expectation that they might or might not participate in such acts.
If an act is denounced by the majority of the people then the majority of the people are stating that they have drawn a line that they will not cross.
If an act is view favorably by the majority of the people, then they are all ready participating in the immoral act.
You are missing my point. I am not justifying massacres because they aren't celebrated; I am saying that one cannot compare the morality of a people who celebrates deliberate massacres of civilians with those who find them unacceptable. (That was the original context of my comment on your statement I quoted above.)
Similarly, it is obscene to compare when Israel bombs an Egyptian schoolhouse - clearly without knowledge that there were innocent children inside - to, say, Kiryat Shmoneh where the children were the deliberate targets.
(Geneva does not define morality to me. I've pointed out [especially during the Lebanon war] cases where Geneva ends up, de facto, helping out terrorists. Geneva only is effective when both sides accept the rules of war, Geneva's inability to penalize parties who do not accept Geneva to begin with puts the other side at a serious disadvantage. But that's another discussion.)
Then we agree that the acts are comparable and that they aren't rare exceptions. I am much more concerned with the acts themselves,but we have a healthier society when people are less happy about it.But many Israelis don't find them unacceptable(evidenced by the data above,Mordechai Gur's 1978 interview and Mark's defense of the slaughter of Libyan air passengers)and American hawks accept a lot of butchered civilians,if they don't delight in it.
It is far from clear that Israelis didn't know that they were attacking a civilian structure,the bombing of Egyptian cities was indiscriminate.
If it comes down to my country dies or the other guy's country dies, then I will do everything possible to make certain that it is not my country that dies. I see no problem in granting Israel the same rights.
Every war that Israel fights is a war for survival. War is a process in which you bet the life of your country and the lives of the citizens of that country. Israel has enemies who will butcher civilians. It is their stated goal.
It is always better if an act of God is what decides the issue. Today the issue is which of two countries Israel or Iran will be the one to survive. You may not agree with this assessment, but then it is the religious fanatics that run Iran who have already made the decision. They have not asked for anyone elses opinion.
Anything that clouds the issue is a fruitless effort. You fight to win, in Israel's case you fight to survive.
" I am much more concerned with the acts themselves,but we have a healthier society when people are less happy about it.
Aaron Carine | 07.24.08 - 6:11 pm | #"
Aaron's "concerned" about these acts, unless they're committed by the ultimate sick society known as the 'Palestinians'. Then and only then, anything's allowable, and don't you dare try to talk about it! Care to explain why Israeli society draws such outrage & condemnation from you, but you just want to ignore 'Palestinian' heroes such as Sami Kuntar?
Aaron,
Please just answer my fair Question;
What do you think should be done with the Jews expelled from the Arab lands that today represent 3.5 million people most of whome live in Israel?
And
If the World expects Israel to absorb ALL the decendents of Arabs from former Palestine returning, Where are all these millions of People going to live?
And
If an Indipendent Palestinian state is to come about in the Future , why would Arabs ever want to go to Zionist Israel anyway? and not their own new Arab state and be joined by Israeli Arabs who we are told are treated as second class citizens in Israel!
NU?.....
It seems that Palestinian Arab identity has been created as a weapon to destroy Israel via a "back door" or "Trojan Horse" scenario.
If Palestinians realy were intent on creating a state, they would unite, drop violence and get Israel and the rest of the World behind them as parters in peace to realiase it.
The potential economic needs for any new Palestinian state would surley be a close relationship with Israel with joint ventures in Industry and Tourism, The Arab states are not the answer in times of peace and have proven to only support Palestinians if they can be used as the spearhead for armed struggle against Israel.
unfortunatly Islamist are the ones preventing this, appart from denying Israels right to exist they are also preventing a future state of Palestine, as it will not serve the purpose in greater cause of Pan Islimification and Hammas clearly have no interst in any Palestinian Identity and like Hisbolla share the Islamic vision of one vast Islamic Khalifa state stretching from Marrocco to Iran under Sharia Law.
Mark, I answered the first question
twice already. See the posts at 10:53 AM and 1:11. And I think we know there are not 3.5 million Jews in Israel who want to leave Israel and move to Arab countries.
It isn't possible for more than a handful of Palestinians to go to Israel(and maybe another handful to the West Bank)but many Palestinians can claim a right of "return"(not in a literal sense if they were born after 194
even if the right cannot be implemented. If Jews born elsewhere have a right to go to Israel-and they do-we can't say there is no such right for people one or two generations removed from the place.
A Palestinian state won't fully nullify the right of "return" just as a Jewish state didn't nullify the right of Jews driven out of Iraq and Libya to return.
The Palestinian Arabs main problem is that they claimed a lie "the right of return" and have lived with that lie for 60 years.
A handful of Palestinians will not return to Israel, instead more than a handful will be driven out. If an Arab can live in peace with Israel then it is right that he live in peace. If an Arab cannot live in peace then he should be driven out.
Ezekiel 47:22 And it shall come to pass, [that] ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Aaron,
stop stating the obvious and be realistic regarding the situation today The Jews could never return even as tourists as Jews are not even safe to visit Arab areas in the West bank never mind Iraq etc, they would be killed as you know.
Israeli Arabs ARE safe and free to travel, live and work in Israel and Arabs can visit family in Israel too, that is a major differece between the 2 people.
The whole right of return for Arabs into Israel should be droped as we all know will be an obsticle to achieve a real peace settlement.
would you expect the Israeli Arabs to live in a new state of Palestine or remain in Israel as Israeli Arabs,As I cant imagine why they would choose to live among Jews who they claim treat them so badly or would they be treated worse by their own people?
Do you agree with a compensation package for losses to be awarded to both parties? As I belive if this was implimented many families from both side would feel a sence of justice had been awarded to them and a better understanding generally among both peoples.
but I cant imagine the Arab league giving billions of $$$'$ for the material losses encured by 1,000,000 Jews, they dont even give that much to their own people!
your thoughts..
The bottom line is Israel will remain as a home land for the Jewish people excersizing the right of Nationality based upon the right of return(for Jews)into Israel
A Palestinian State will also be a home for Arabs (#23)and will excersize the right of return for Arabs into Palestine.
* There must also be recognition to allow Jews (who wish) to live in Palestine as Palestinian Jews based upon Arabs already living in Israel.
However it is funny that an Arab nation with no Jews is acceptable, but Jewish state with no Arabs is not! why is that?
We were talking about the Palestinian diaspora,not about Israeli Arabs. You asked "what should be done" about Mizrahi Jews in Israel and I said they want to stay in Israel. Now you tell me they want to stay in Israel. Why tell me what I know?
I said it was impossible for more than a handful of Palestinians to "return" and now you tell me it is impossible. Again, you are telling me what I know. Let us not quibble over whether it is "a right that can't be implemented" or "no right".
There isn't an equivalence between Jews having a right of return to Israel and Palestinians having a right of return to the West Bank rather than to places from which they(or their grandparents) were removed.
There also isn't an equivalence between Israeli Arabs and settlers in illegal settlements. But I guess the settlers will have to be allowed to stay in a Palestinian state since no Israeli government will drag them out.
I am for compensation to both parties.
Aaron,
I would still like to know if Israeli Arabs who I assume support the idea of a State of Palestine would go there and be part of it.
As I said before we hear constant stories and reports that Israeli Arabs are subject to dicrimination and treated as second class citizens etc, and if that was the case why would they not want to live in a new Palestinian state in 100% freedom.
If people are prepared to become terrorists to achieve their goal of statehood, it does not realy sit well in the case for Israeli Arabs to remain umder Jewish control in Israel by choice.
Palestinians claim they want to live in their own state and it has been the centre of their strugle , so why does that not include Israeli Arabs who as you pointed out regard themselves as Palestinians.
If an Israeli Arab renained in Israel opting not to leave it would mean they either prefer living among a Jewish Majority or was willing to wait and possibly be part of a full Liberation of all the land of former Palestine.
Would Arab/Muslim world realy respect a situation of two states or continue the armed strugle, knowing they were already half way in suceeding in their ultimate goal, Israels destruction!
by the way, I just love your term of " The Palestinian Diaspora"
" Next year in Jerusalem " has been used I cant wait for the Arab term
what about " Mazzel tov" next
Are you aware that the Jews were also described in the way.
They are part of the Arab diaspora!
This is why after 60 odd years the term refuge and Palestinian realy do not go together any more.
The vast majority of Palestinians Arabs are decendents of refugese as Jews are or possibly 70% of the US population. but not current or post generations.
As for Palestinian Arabs right of return to a new Palestine are they aware that the Lebanese, Jordanians and allot of Syrains could equaly claim Palestinian rights as these places were also Palestine up until the early 1920's
I could think of a couple reasons why Israeli Arabs would not want to go to a Palestinian state. 1)They know the Palestinian Authority/Hamas is more repressive than Israeli society in the pre-1967 borders 2)They want to live in the place of their birth,like many people do,and have equal rights there.
I think we can assume that Egypt and Jordan don't intend to destroy Israel. Syria was a part of the Arab League summits at Beirut and Riyadh that declared willingness to sign a peace treaty,but perhaps Syria wasn't sincere.
I still cant get my head round this, If statehood was my # 1 goal and I was living among the "enemy" I would do anything to live among my own people and culture.
Your words of Hammas/PA/Fateh being more oppresive than Israeli society speaks volumes and makes the reality of a state of Palestine run by their current leaders not at all appealing.
Would you then agree that a better solution could come from the Israeli Arabs and find good responsable leadership from within their society due to their close relationship with Jews and their better understanding of democracy.
So all this talk of oppression, Apprthied etc that we hear about mainly from Anti Iasrael groups ,should all be correctly directed against the Hammas/PA & the Arab world and not Israel at all.
If the "FREE PALESTINE" mob realy wanted to give these people freedom & indipendence, why do they support these groups who are more oppressive than those who they regard as the Enemy?
Mark, I realize how reasonable you are after dealing with Teddy.
Israeli Arabs might want a Palestinian state for the sake of their kin in the territories,rather than because they don't want to live in Israel.
They can't have freedom and independence under occupation. It is looking like they won't have much freedom in a Palestinian state,but they will at least have independence,and people care about that.
A better solution would be a one state solution,but there isn't much hope of that.
a one state solution would only suit the Arabs, but in reality a state of Arabs and Jews already exists namely Israel, but the Arabs do not want to recognise it.
We all know the only one state that Arabs/Muslims would recognise would be one with an Arab Majority.
Think out of the circle for just one second, It is a crazy idea to expect Israel to move to pre 67 borders until the whole Muslim and Arab world recognise Israel, it is too dangerous just look at Gaza-Sedrot.The problems with Palestinians is they have to be united before they can even think of statehood, look at Gaza.
The best option has to include Jordan and Israeli Arabs in creating real Statehood for Palestinians, They should not be represented by 2 warring groups who put their own self interst above that of the people they say they represent.
as those Arabs in charge will always find excuses as they are in a comfortable possition of power and money, they dont care about the poor majority.
Occupation, settlement building etc... are all excuses, as other nations have been formed under much much worse situations, Israel it self is one example.
The current term of "Palestine" will only continue to exist as a tool of war to use agaist Israel, not as a refrence to a future Arab state created to benifit it's population and it's Jewish neibours.
The whole fiasco revolved arround " Palestinian" Arabs is based upon Israels destruction, if it was not The Jews themselves would welcome the reality as they did with Egypt and Jordan.
Jews do not welcome the fact their sons and daughters need to go to war or serve the best years of their lives in uniform but we accept it, I only wish I could say the same of the Islamists who each day are becoming stronger and are wiling to sacrifice all they have as they welcome death as a victory and salvation.
The only thing preventing peace and a state called Palestine along side ISRAEL are those who deny Jewish rights to self determination and the Islamo Nazis who prefer to let their Children die killing Jews than have live together as it is un-Islamic.
Israeli Arabs hold the key to denounce the lies spread about Jews and the ones with leadeship skills.
Not to get into the debate about right of return going on, but I wanted to make a comment about something else in Elder's article. Part of me cannot believe I am saying this, but here goes.
Elder, you make the point that Israel should not treat with the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza if their leadership continues to be dominated by terrorists turned "heads of state" (for lack of a better term. The problem with this, if you believe that Israel should negotiate at all, is that you have already pointed out that any Arab leader in the territories who has not been involved in terrorist operations (do they call them matyrdom operations or something?) has no street cred. In the case of Barghouti (whom I do not believe should be released), you have pointed out that he may be the best option but for the fact he is a terrorist.
I think it has to be mentioned, that Begin and Shamri were terrorist (or committed terrorist activities). Had the Egyptians taken the position that because he was a former terrorist, then no deal could be possible, there never would have been the deal with the Egyptians. Despite the land swap involved in that one, that deal has turned out well for Israel for the last two plus decades.
If Israel is going to continue on a course of negotiating with these regimes, then I think the simple test of "is he a terrorist?" has to be laid aside. The question should be, different and not a single one. "Is he a terroritst?" should be considered, as should "Is this a person who we can do a real deal who can enforce it on his own people?"
To make an agreement with people that you hate, as the Arabs in the terrorities hate Israel, then there has to be someone leading them with the credibility to be trusted. In my opinion, if Israel is to continue to negotiate, it needs to look beyond the terrorist label. If the terrorist-turned-negotiator is strong enough within the territories, and willing to accept to Israel's right to exist and Israel's control over the Old City (under whatever formula is eventually arrived at), then it might be worthwhile to talk with the person.
I'm not saying release Barghoutti. I'm not endorsing any acts committed by those people. What I am saying is that the litmus test needs to be reevaluted.
It is of course possible for people to be reformed terrorists. The problem with the popular Palestinian Arab leaders is not only that they aren't reformed, but that they still do not accept the legitimacy of Israel.
So while it is indeed important for anyone Israel negotiates peace with with to be trustworthy about following through with their agreements, it is more important that they accept Israel as legitimate. Otherwise, Israel is only negotiating its own eventual surrender.
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