Comments on Elizaphanian
Whoever chose the colours and text size on this site must have strong young eyess. But he said he was a priest! Clearly there is some misunderstanding here. A priest cannot be young. Something's fishy. What gives. What the --
I am a visitor from RunningOnEmpty2. I post cornucopian reasoning there, and am generally ingored.
Sorry, that should read, generally ignored. Really, this preview window is hard to read.
Thanks, Sam. I agree with your analysis. We are debating the nuts and bolts, mostly. We do wax philosophical and political at times.
Though it's true - we emphasize the material too much. That's because it was used against us in order to brainwash the masses.
There is a much greater issue at stake here - the immortal soul.
I've changed the comment format - hopefully it's a bit easier to read! Thanks for all the comments.
I appreciate your thinking. There might also be cause to distinguish between Doomers and “Apocalyptic Outsiders”. Doomers tend to believe www.dieoff.com — as you have rightly asserted. But some of them campaign for awareness anyway… they are 90% convinced that they will have to watch their loved ones starve to death, but campaign on the 10% chance that somehow it will only be the “mother of all Depressions”.
Other Doomers that seem to rejoice in the coming catastrophe I refer to as the “Apocalyptic Outsiders”. They cheer on the Mad Max scenario, and can’t wait for the horde of “Road Warriors” to clear away the “chaff” of the old civilization. They see this as some sort of planetary salvation from mankind’s industrial era, and can’t wait to see us crash back to the stone age!
As both a Christian and a peak oil campaigner, this is what I write regarding the tension peakniks meeting to campaign, and the more extremist Doomers meeting for a social chit chat and a bit of a heckle of any with hope. And just for clarity I have a lot of sympathy for the Doomer position, and I still have moments where I fear the Doomers are right. Even if they are, I will go down fighting this insane situation. Not all Doomers are the same.
Apocalyptic Outsiders
Some members may become disruptive to the group, and have such extreme views that it might be helpful for the group if they were asked to form their own social group... in other words, not come to your group!
Unfortunately peak oil attracts some unusual types. This is where peak oil knowledge has become a cult-like pathology. In cults the extreme views of members have placed them outside the mainstream. Because they feel alienated and judged by the mainstream of society, they return the favour and judge society. As such, extremist cult members like the Branch Davidians of Waco, Texas have been referred to as Apocalyptic Outsiders.
I have noticed the tendency for some extreme Doomers to even want to keep peak oil to themselves. This is not characteristic of all Doomers, please don't take offense if you hold little hope for civilization at the end of the oil age. I am speaking about a very specific mindset. It seems that the Apocalyptic Outsider has too much of their identity caught up in their end of civilization belief system — to the point that if society did Powerdown successfully, these individuals would be saddened and disappointed.
In other words, if civilization did not come crashing down after the peak, who would this person be?
The characteristics that mark the Apocalyptic Outsider are:-
_. a tendency to gloat smugly over the coming destruction of civilization.
_. a judgmental attitude to the uninitiated (and even non-Doomer Peakniks are scolded for their inferior position.)
_. a tendency to kick back and enjoy esoteric discussions over the end of civilization — rather than actually doing anything about it
_. very harsh criticism of those who do try to mitigate peak oil and do try to raise awareness to prevent dieoff.
_. Is different to a Doomer Socialite who might only be there to share the angst — this Doomer is obstructive, critical, destroys group moral, and is ultimately attention seeking.
This navel gazing mindset can be a waste of time at meetings. Not only does little get achieved with this critical attitude present, but it stifles brainstorming and destroys activism. This version of the Doomer wants to fatalistically congratulate themselves for their clever perceptions rather than campaign, or even set up a Lifeboat as many other Doomers would.
The irony is that these Apocalyptic Outsiders often object to the term Doomer as derogatory, but are the very people that might make the term derogatory! The more balanced (but still understandably anxious) Malthusian Peaknik would love to see the best of civilization preserved and dieoff prevented, and probably has a tongue-in-cheek appreciation of the term Doomer. The Apocalyptic Outsider is so precious about their Malthusian nightmares being the only correct hypothesis that their zeal makes them over react to a playful term.
Your group leaders may have to discuss whether or not the Apocalyptic Outsiders should form their own social group. (IE: Leave your group!) It's harsh to have to spell this out, but peak oil awareness is too important to let this clouded and self-obsessed thinking interfere with meetings.
http://eclipsenow.org/campaign-
s...calyptic_anchor
Also, I think you’d LOVE an article called “Peak Freaks” to be found
HERE
Lastly, if you are a peaknik check my site out for the free posters. I am slowly developing a range of posters that advertise a range of peak oil websites… from the nuttier to the more academically credible. Free, no strings attached. Take your pick!
Cheers, and thanks for your time and effort in understanding peak oil.
Sorry, that reference did not work.
Try this link, or google "Peak Freaks
BY AARON NAPARSTEK"
http://www.freezerbox.com/archiv...icle.php?
id=385
It's a very entertaining read!
Sometimes one just has to laugh at the peculiarities of one's own movement.
GREAT article - I especially liked "Petrocollapse is a secular, left-wing, non-fiction version of Tim LaHaye's Christian Apocalyptic "Left Behind" series" - I think that's exactly right.
I'll have a rummage on your website - that analysis of the outsiders seems spot on.
Thanks
Hi Sam,
You seem to be into this end-of-fossil-fuel thing in a big way. I agree doing nothing is not an option, and doing little personal local things - like planting a tree - or simple reductions in ones own consumption - are the place to start.
As you know I'm in the oil-industry up to my neck, and I like to think my small contribution to raising the awareness of how lousy political decisions get made, and how it doesn't need to be that way, is part of the same movement - whatever ones metaphysical basis for the morals involved.
Good stuff,
Ian
We live in a unique time. A time of literal quantum reality, of total interconnectedness. A time of super technology, atomic weapons, instantaneous communication/propaganda and yes, overpopulation.
A time when everyone is affected by every negative event. The chaos theory or butterfly effect!
As distinct from the past when disasters were more or less local.
A time when all the Sacred Scriptures of the entire Great Tradition of Humankind are freely available on the internet. And all the artifacts of every culture are more or less available to everyone who has the money.
These related references give a very sober assessment of the state of the world and what we have to do to righten the situation.
1. www.coteda.com
2. www.dabase.net/coop+tol.htm
thanks for this. very helpful
i'm way way happy with james alison AND i stuck my toe into publishing (inspired by Wright's take on apocalypse) with a book called _Everyday Apocalypse_.
trying to figure out how to word myself well.
enjoying your work,
jdd
I appreciate the perspective of the author, but I happen to believe that he is missing the point. Peak oil will result in enormous changes to human civilization, including the restructuring of societies. For better or worse, we exist in a global economy that is absolutely dependent on abundant and cheap oil. When it becomes clear that peak oil has occurred, that system will collapse under its own weight. However, that does not mean that the human species will devolve into a miserable stone-age existence. Chances are, we will adjust. The adjustment, however, will likely not be smooth or without pain. Facing this reality is not denying God. In fact, it takes the courage of faith to face and prepare for the challenges ahead. Oh, for what it is worth, I was once served in the Presbyterian Missions.
Once again a misguided person who points out that just because human civilisation has negotiated big upheavels in the past it should therefore be able to do so this time. Well sometimes civilisation don't (Mayan, Roman etc). Plus then throws in some bible quotes for corniess.
What you call peak oil doomers do not believe that the world will end, just that civilization as we know it will end. I don't know what the normal carrying capacity of the earth is but it is not unreasonable to suppose that without the short lived bounty of fossil fuels the, world will go back to its normal carrying capacity. You give the impression that doomers say that this means almost everyone will die. So you mischaracterise the doomer stance.
The doomer stance has been well reasoned in many publication, both on-line and written. To compare it to theology (by which I assume you mean religious belief) is bizarre. Religious belief is not reasoned, it is revealed (or usually instilled during upbringing). Peak oil doomerism is, therefore completely different from religious belief.
Lastly, you claim that peak oil doomerists offer no chance of salvation. However, many of them envisage, eventually, the possibility of a sustainable world. So again, you misrepresent doomerism.
Tony
Wrong, on all counts.
How about looking at the data instead of indulging in "bad poetic science" (Dawkins)?
You see a few similarities, thus you think peak oil warnings and biblical claptrap are identical.
The point is not even peak oil, but lack of preparation.
The world is NOT going to end. "God" should be so generous. Living beyond peak WITHOUT PREPARING FOR IT is going to make some people WISH the world would end.
I have no patience for these stupid=ass disputes involving either religion or psychoanalysis.
LOOK AT THE DATE.
Of course there is another theological perspective, one born from a community much more in touch with the land. If the people of Israel failed to give the land its sabbath's rest... "You shall eat the flesh of your sons and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. And I will destroy their high places (Cities in our context?) and cut down your incense altars and cast your dead bodies upon dead bodies and my soul will abhour you. And I will lay your cities waste... Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate... " Lev 26:27-39
We are not the first civilization to abuse the land and suffer the consequences. To be clear, I am not a doomer... Things will not be good, perhaps I'm a doomer-light. Sometimes there is nothing for a prophet to do but sound the warning and, near the end of his life, lament.
I believe that much of what the peak oil people think and postulate is reasonable. It is unlikely the earth can sustain the current population without the vast quantities of oil we need to support modern agricuture. Also, a severe shortage of fuels for transportation will limit the amount of food that can be shipped internationally; it could even limit shipments between states. The problem we face is we will not prepare for this, until it is likely too late to avoid dire consequences. We can always adapt, and who says the post-oil economy would be all that bad? Modern capitalism would be gone of course, since continuous growth would be a thing of the past. Economies would become much more local to cut transportation costs; food would largely be organic, cattle (where raised) would be range-fed, people would have healthier diets. It might be like the High Middle Ages, but with better science and medicine.
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