She hurts so much, Annie. That's all I can think of, is how much she hurts.
I agree she's in a serious amount of pain, all of which she's blaming on prolifers. No doubt she's been taught that we're the reason she hurts, and the fact that there are some pretty mean and nasty "prolifers" out there doesn't help any.
I feel for her. I commented to her before about my rape and pregnancy scares and she had NO compassion for me. SHe is going to hit the wall eventually and shes gonna hit it hard. I just hope that she developes the compassion for everyone else that she demands we have for her.
Wow. You could choke on the hostility of that woman. I will pray for her, that she can find some healing and let go of all the anger and pain she is holding inside.
I know (from reading this blog and others) that denial can last a long time. I do hope that eventually hers will come to an end, and the true recovery from her ordeal can begin.
Oh...isn't this nice...
You could choke on the hypocrisy in this thread, that's for sure.
"Annie" chimes in with her two cents in response to me about how she's all about loving women, and then opens up this thread here so you can have a little hate-fest about me behind my back.
Charming.
And how typical. You people show the truth about yourselves every time you pull this kind of crap.
Sorry I won't let you use me to further your agenda. Sorry I get angry when people play armchair shrink as if they could possibly know anything about me from a couple of posts on the internet.
Why I must be totally wrong in my feelings! Why, I'm not even a human being to you people. I'm just a thing you can use and lie about and talk about. I'm just something you can play your little manipulative games with.
I don't even exist as far as you're concerned. You care more about the unborn child of some evil monster than you do about me. I'm just a means to an end for you. If you all had penises, you'd be holding me down and gangraping me yourselves.
What the FUCK is the point? You don't listen to me. You just twist my words to make it look like I fall into your biased and unscientific little statistics, that's all.
You don't even see me as human. How are you any different from my FUCKING father who told me, the day I was raped, that I could no longer hope to marry since I wasn't a virgin anymore?
I'm not even real to you. I'm nothing to you.
What will make you happy? You want me to jump out the window and then you can blog about that and blame it all on the abortion and not the fact that it's people like you and your assumptions and disregard that are pissing me off? Is that what you want? You want that? Good.
I was raped, I had abortions. I was militantly pro-choice once. I have never felt more welcome and loved as a woman than by the women on 'afterabortion' and by 'pro-lifers.'I've been validated and encouraged to heal from the insanity, hurt and rage of my past. I was a victim and I turned around and victimized others (my unborn children included). It's a vicious cycle, the hate and blame. I was so angry you couldn't touch me! I wouldn't listen to reason. I wouldn't let myself be loved by anyone. The fire has gone out--- forgiveness and peace have replaced it. Thank God there is another way to live--- this love and forgiveness. I even forgave the man who abused me (he's in prison for life). Talk about a weight being lifted and a new freedom. This is my experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything. Thank God there's another way to live, or you can bet I wouldn't be here today.
P.S. for '1st anonymous:' thank you for coming over here and posting. I haven't walked in your shoes, but have suffered my own. Peace to you.
Jillian, I presume this is you responding. You are very real to us and we don't want any harm to come to you: one reason why we really haven't inflicted it. I'm wondering, maybe it isn't something you're familiar with here, but we don't tolerate or instigate hate of any kind here, whether it comes from prolife or prochoice folks. I realize you may not ever believe anything I or we say but we do have prochoice friends regularly commenting here on this blog (Achro, are ya there? Sarah?)
We're really not doing what you think we're doing here, but I don't know how else to say this. Really. I know you don't know us well or at all, but we're really not. I never said you were wrong in your feelings. I find it hard to understand how you took what I said to mean the opposite, but I guess it's your past experiences with hardcore and nasty prolife people that lead you to believe we're all like that. Yeah, they do exist, sadly, but I've had my share of fights (yes, verbal shout fights in person) with that type, and I wish they could be silenced. They do much harm, and little good. And further, because of the hatred they spewed your way in the past, you naturally assume we're that way too. But, really, we are not.
Our words are not written in hate, condemnation, smugness or impersonal ideology. If you read about "Who we are," http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...delines-
to.html ...it's in there, how we make it safe for anyone coming here to be vulnerable. MANY have come here on the defensive as you are, some have stayed long enough and somehow were able to find out the truth, that they don't have to remain defensive, while they're here.
You see, about one-third of our visitors come here from Google searches, having entered phrases along the lines of "depression after abortion", "suicide after abortion", "trouble coping after abortion", and "why does my wife hate me after abortion".
We offer this place where these seekers can get useful information--the realization that there are resources, others who have gone through the same difficulties, and hope for the future.
Emily and I believe that compassion is the appropriate response, that compassion shouldn't be conditional on whether or not someone perceives her abortion through the same cognitive and religious eyes as ours, AND that compassion isn't pity or self-righteous, condescending, smarmy falseness. We mean it.
We also don't allow use of labels like "anti-choice" or "pro-abort". We require all commenters to respect the dignity of others.
We don't diminish, minimize, or invalidate the pain and grief experienced by an unknown number of men and women after abortion. By the same token, we don't imply that men or women who say that their abortion experience was positive are in denial.
If someone elsewhere did criticize or condemn you for aborting after a rape (no one did here or at the other blog), you would rightfully be upset. We would be too. I don't know
... I don't know why--when some DO refrain from hate and instead see you as a human being with feelings and show genuine concern (I know it's hard to know what's real in black and white on the Internet, but what purpose would it serve for us to try to con you by faking a genuine openness and welcome?)--you see them as hypocrites and hateful attackers. I'm not a shrink, never pretended to be one, nor do any of us commenting here. The attacks you're seeing from us just.aren't.there, Jillian. Girl, we do care about you, not just the unborn babies. We just aren't like the prolife people you've interacted with, ever before. The only way to know that is true is to find out for yourself.
I wrote about this because of all the people coming to our blog looking for help. Because of the possibly many women out there like you reading these things and wishing for someone to point them toward a good rape counselor (see below) since they recognize their feelings in your words, but they're afraid to ask anyone. Talking about this isn't for exposing you or telling you we wish you'd jump out a window, it's because we give a damn about you personally, and all like you, as EQUALS (regarding abortions). Em and I both aborted our children. I know you might never believe that (that we care about you and/or that we aborted too), but that doesn't make either thing any less true.
I'm wishing somehow to find the words that will show we aren't hatemongerers or that we don't listen to you. But so far, you're not listening to our words so how to find the right ones? I don't know. We agree to disagree all the time with several prochoice people right here, but we do it without condemning anyone. Just because we disagree on some things doesn't mean we want you dead or don't give a damn about you. Please try to read what we've said knowing and accepting that, even as a leap of trust. OK?
For the benefit of any others not commenting here, I'll repeat the hotline contact info that Rachael had:
RAINN, 1.800.656.HOPE , 24-hours, tollfree and confidential and not affiliated with us or any abortion-related group at all.
National Domestic Violence Hotline
1-800-799-SAFE, (1-800-799-7233)
http://www.ndvh.org
National Domestic Violence Hotline TDD
(for the hearing-impaired)
1-800-787-3224
INTERNATIONAL contact info found in links here: http://www.rsnider.blog-
city.com...al_hotlines.htm
Caleen, in this same vein, the guidelines remind that "please don't imply that men or women who say that their abortion experience was positive are in denial. If people are in denial, that would be because of an event that is too traumatic for them to process in the light of reality. If you really believe someone is in denial, why would you want to add insult to injury?"
Annie, thank you. Jillian, like you, it bothers me when someone plays armchair shrink and presumes to say that if I am not upset about something they think I ought to be upset about, then I must be in denial.
It really does add insult to injury for someone who is pro-life to say that someone who is not upset about an abortion must be in denial because not only is the claim made that the abortion was wrong, but an additional claim is made that the person doesn't know her own mind.
Anonymous, Jillian? I was told that I had to abort my child because no man would want to marry me if I had a child.
I can feel those words that you write - those ugly words your father said to you.
You are worth so much more than words that anyone says to you - you are precious.
Blessings - Lee Anne
This girl has been put through a DEVASTATING double-whammy. She is BADLY shaken, and needs compassionate understanding.
well I commented. I thought that there were some serious flaws.... I also think that Jillian was feeling victimize again.
I don't think the phrase "forced to choose" was a good one. I also think that most of the time they give rape victims the morning after pill or one like it (at least out here in my area) so they never know if they are preg. And from my own talking to people who are victims of rape they say that the evdence gathering is far far the most invasive part aside from the rape.
What I found intersting was that last year a girl gave birth to a child of rape and the rapist sued for visiting rights....... Now as I sit here listening to Bill O Rilly he is talking about several cases of child molestion that either got less then 4 yrs to probation for their assults on 12-13 yr old kids..... old enough to have children... wonder if they could get custody to... it is so apparent that we don't care what happens to these people these victims. It must feel like another person trying to harm them when a prolife person says what they should or shouldn't do about a preg.
I agree that it must feel like another person trying to harm them when a pro-life person says to trust God. For one thing, the occurance of pregnancy following a rape is low. That does not mean that it does not happen...obviously it does.
The evidence gathering must be excruciating for a rape victim -
I want to know how an abortion, though - the process of an abortion, would be anything easier than the evidence exam? Yes, the DNA of the rapist is removed, but it seems to me that the woman in violated all over again.
I am speaking in generalities here...not specifics and definitely not aimed at anyone.
I do think that it is important for people to realize that the killing of a child through abortion does not eradicate the rape. Nothing can do that.
The child of rape is half of the woman's DNA. It is not conceived willingly, but it is a child, none the less. What happens is that the half that is the woman's is also killed - not just the rapist's half.
Blessings -
Achromic,
I would like to point again that my post wasn't just about Jillian, it was my personal observations and opinions about abortion and rape in general. I have since, at Jillian's request, removed her quote and generalized the post so it's not specifially about her. The post is that of a senstive topic and upsetting nature to those who may have experienced rape. Maybe it might to be a good idea avoid discussing and debate this topic with others if one hasn't reached healing and found peace with the rape. I only say this because I don't want someone to become further hurt.
Could you please explain some of the major flaws you found in my entry? I will review and try to understand where you're coming from. I would like to try to understand why a victim might feel that the pregnancy is a second violation. What's your insight on this?
A commenter on my site did address the issue of rapists receiving parental rights. This is a flaw of the law systems. You would think that because the man was a perpetrator of violence that no court would award him custody. I'm not exactly sure about rulings and laws on this and it's something I'll need to further research and I may address in my post (since it is a concern of rape victims). I would totally be in favor laws which mandate stricter sentencing of convicted rapists and child molestors.
"The post is that of a senstive topic and upsetting nature to those who may have experienced rape."
Uh, oh, that might of not come out right.
I ment to say, "The post is that of a senstive topic and may be upsetting to those who have experienced rape."
Rachel I never thought the post was about Jillian..... The part that I quoted about being "forced to choose" was in a comment made by you to her... I assume that since the comment said it was to Jillian then it was about her..... am I msitaken?
Why would I feel that a preg. was second volition? Did I say that? I don't remember saying that.
I think being told that you are a bad person (or feeling that is implied) because you choose to abort a child of rape is a bad thing.
I think that when a prep. can revolite that person that they forcably impreg. by forceing them to go back into court to fight custody is insane.
I think the morning after pill means that the abortion is far less invasive then either the rape or evidence collection. So I thought you misspoke by not keeping up with the times. Abortion no longer nessacarly means sticking anything up anyone.
I would also say that abortion from rape is probably pretty low. Preg. from rape is probably uncommen. Considering that there is only a small window in each month that we can get preg. and how many people use BC like the patch..... I'd say that your more at risk for AIDS, herpes, and other STDS. But I donno... I havn't done the research on how likely you are to end up preg. from a rape.
Achromic,
I think I addressed the concern of the "forced to choose" coment in a response over to my blog.
No, you never said that you feel that a preg. was second violation. I was just asking for your opinion and getting your prespective from a pro-choice view.
"I think being told that you are a bad person (or feeling that is implied) because you choose to abort a child of rape is a bad thing."
Well, I certainly hope I haven't said or even implied that she is a bad person for choosing rape. Where in my post and how have I come off this way? It's the opposite of how I wish to approach her.
In one of my recent comments, I tried to say it best: We oppose the act of abortion, but that doesn't mean that we judge or condemn you as a woman. Meaning my opposition and dislike is to abortion, not the women who choose it. But perhaps it didn't come off that way.
I haven't researched this extensively but this is what I have read on the numbers: from the article "Abortion’s House of Cards" by Pamela Pearson Wong, Jan/Feb 2001, Family Voice, found here online:
http://www.cwfa.org/familyvoice/...01-01/14-
20.asp
These pregnancies are more common than previously thought.
For years, the pro-life movement has accepted studies that say only one or two pregnancies result from every 1,000 assault rapes. Based on figures from the U.S. Department of Justice, that means only 170 to 340 pregnancies a year, or 1 percent. Many attribute this low number to a combination of factors, such as prior contraceptive use by the women, infertility or sterility of the man or the woman, the trauma of rape, and timing of the woman’s cycle.
However, the latest statistics point to a far greater problem. In 1996, research published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology estimated that as many as 32,000 pregnancies may result from sexual assault each year—with about half occurring in teenagers under age 18.
Kay Zibolsky agrees that the number is much higher than generally thought. As founder of the Life After Assault League, she has counseled more than 2,000 victims of rape or incest.
“You cannot have statistics on unreported cases. Most of the women I counsel do not report [the rape or incest],” she says, “[Although] I always urge them to.
“From date rape to drug rape to stranger rape, when there is a pregnancy, families and young women just deal with it. It’s a lie ... that few babies are conceived this way. Even if it is just one, it’s too many that are aborted.”
I put in my opinion, and got edited. Perhaps I failed to heed Annie's advice about treading lightly. 
Everyone is going out of their way to accomodate Jillian's pain. That shows a sensitive heart, which speaks well of you all. Unfortunately, accomodating all of this pain drowns out any other input into the discussion, most significantly: the plight of the child.
Underneath the pain, there's a reality. Reality is that abortion takes an innocent human life. No amount of pain can justify that. I apologize if this sounds harsh, but that's the way I see it. If we declare "open season" on rapists' children, where do we draw the line? I was emotionally abused by my mother; does that give me the right to kill my wife if I think it would help the healing process?
Anyone who knows me personally would back up the following statement: I will do anything that I can to help a hurting person. But I won't kill someone else, and I won't tell them that it's okay to do so.
Ah ok Rachel... I will give my opinion just a sec while sip my coffee. And I donna think you said she was a bad person... I think she felt that it was implied because she is over sentive. It is obviouse that she is in tremedouse amounts of horrible pain. I only hope that what ever G*d is out there can find a way to reach her.... I think that perhaps that is the worst part about tragity is that we can feel so cut off from G*d......
" I would like to try to understand why a victim might feel that the pregnancy is a second violation."
Put that up there so I can stay focused and not go off on a tangent (er not that I EVER do that). I think that some people.. even some men who have had loved ones raped feel that it another slap in the face from G*d. They feel as tho' they have been burdened with all of this pain that they donna understand how a preg. can be allowed to have happened to them. I think that they dehumanize the fetus even if before they were prolife (which I actually find very sad for someone that holds a prolife view because I think the guilt and shame comes back double fold latter on). Also some women do not have an easy first trimseter..... if that it the case they may feel as if the fetus is causeing all the sickness and pain that she is in.
I don't think abortion should be legel because it might help someone that has been raped. I think abortion should stay legel because it is the right thing to do. I do think you make a good point about a woman being in bad condition to make any descion... I think that it is a good reason for the abortion pill to be used as this way she doesn't ever have to know if she was preg. as well as the physcial aspect of being voliated again is not there.
I think that it is a good reason for the abortion pill to be used as this way she doesn't ever have to know if she was preg. as well as the physcial aspect of being voliated again is not there."
A - my cousin's daughter was raped when she was 14 or so...by a family "friend". When my cousin found out, they took her to the ER and they gave her the morning after pill. My cousin's daughter is now forty and has just had a hellish life - she does not know if she indeed was pregnant and has many emotional problems. She has repeatedly chosen men who have not treated her well.
I see a connection between the rape and the pill and no counseling for this precious woman.
Although you see abortion as good - what is good about taking the life of a human being?
blessings - Lee Anne
Naaman. RE: "I won't kill someone else, and I won't tell them that it's okay to do so."
Neither did I or those of us against abortion tell her it was ok to do so, so I'm not sure of your point.
achromic,
Morning coffee, is that better? :D
Right, Jillian is definatly hurting, so I've been careful to try to avoid hurting her further and have tried reaching out to her. But I think she might have a hard time seeing through the pain and the political differences right now, and that's ok. I do hope that someday she can find peace.
LOL, on the tangent comment. I think we all do that at one point or another *grins*
Ok, thank you for this insight. It's given me a better idea where a woman might be coming from when she says she feels a pregnancy is a second violation.
"I think abortion should stay legel because it is the right thing to do."
Unfortuantly, this is were we have political differences. Keep in mind that not all women feel they may have made the right choice and there are women who grieve after their abortion.
"I do think you make a good point about a woman being in bad condition to make any descion..."
Ok, I'm glad we understand each other on this.
"I think that it is a good reason for the abortion pill to be used as this way she doesn't ever have to know if she was preg. as well as the physcial aspect of being voliated again is not there."
Are you referring to the Emergency Contraceptive Pill or the Abortion Pill RU486? RU486 has with it many risks (and has been black labeled by the FDA) and so the health benefits and risks should be weighed very carefully before it is administered in ERs to rape victims. However, I have no problem with emergency contraception being given to rape victims in ERs, since it might prevent a pregnancy from occuring in the first place. And like you've said before I believe, the chances of a woman becoming pregnant would probably be pretty slim based on where she is in her cycle, if she is on any kind of contraceptive, and if she is infertile from previous health complications (endometriosis, Asherman's Syndrome, PCOS, etc.) Still, my article was focused on providing positive solutions for the small percentage who do become pregnant as a result of rape.
Naaman,
I will reply to your e-mail soon. My e-mail is having glitches and I hope this will be fixed soon.
Rachel, I think that is the thing... rape victims don't want any postive solution... Really, it hurts them in such a way that to imply that anything postive may come about because of it may make them feel that someone out there can justify that rape. Not saying that you are trying to justify rape... but I could see how someone would feel that way.
There is no solution to rape after it has happened. Nothing is gonna make it better or make it go away. An abortion is not a solution nor should it take the place of good conseling which btw won't do more then apply a bandaid to the gaping wound in your soul. But I think that it is inconsivalbe to most women to think that they are gonna be forced to carry a rapist baby for the next 9+ months. I don't think most consider the baby as theirs because they didn't choose, anything at that point. To imply that they should brith the babies in question ... it sounds... it could sound like you are saying that G*d met the rape to happen so this baby could be born.
I don't think that just because you greive that a wrong choice was made. That is something that confuse me, because I do see it being said/implied here a lot.. that because they are hurt and greiveing that means they made a mistake. I greive, but I do not think that I made a bad choice... I just think that being sad about it is actually very normal and it when people are not sad about that is disturbing.
I know the FDA bowed down to the right wing political pressure to ban certian drugs. That is too bad. I have not figured out the diffrence between the emergency contraception pill and the RU whatever pill.... it was my understanding that you folks were against both and didn't think there was any good to come from either... am I wrong?
Lee Ann, that is a sad story about your coisen. However, you will never know if perhaps it would just be a diffrent thing she would choose to focus her anger and her hurt on. Just because something doesn't work for one person doesn't mean it doesn't help someone else. I'm not saying that anyone that does have a problem with doing it should.... Infact I think that one of the wisest things we can do is really think about what choices we want to make should that be laied in our lap and share that with someone we love and trust. We might change our minds when G*d forbid something like that happens but at least then we have a better chance of being able to hold on to what we feel are our values.
Achromic says...
it could sound like you are saying that G*d met the rape to happen so this baby could be born.
I agree, there is the danger that it sounds this way, and we have to be very careful to avoid phrasing that could lead to that conclusion. G*d doesn't --- cannot, almost by definition --- will evil to happen, even in order that a greater good might occur.
But what can happen, is that when evil (by definition against G*d's will) happens, G*d can use that evil to bring about a good thing, and that good thing might be intended by G*d to help ease the ill effects of the evil. Thus when evil acts have a good result, we need to speak of the good result as created by G*d in the face of evil, so that evil itself may have good results and thus be defeated.
So wording must be careful: G*d does not do evil that good may come of it, but G*d is capable of bringing good out of some evil committed without G*d's will.
It is a fine distinction, but an important one as it also speaks to human acts. It is wrong to do evil that good may result; but it is right to extract what good one can from a evil situation.
hummm my defintion of evil is not against G*ds will.
Annie B:
Neither did I or those of us against abortion tell her it was ok to do so, so I'm not sure of your point.
I apologize for expressing myself poorly. It is true that no pro-lifer told Jillian that abortion was OK. It is also true, unfortunately, that very few of us were willing to tell her that it was wrong. We hinted at it, sure, but we never really said it.
We portrayed abortion as a second violation, which it probably is to many women.
We portrayed choosing life as an opportunity to heal, which it probably is for many women.
We quoted the Mahkorn study, which was done some time ago, and is not the strongest research methodology. Even though it is the only study of its kind, it's still not a strong support for any pro-life claim.
We included lovely stories about children of rape who were not aborted and grew up to have good lives.
We proclaimed our desire for tougher rape laws, new custody laws that would not give any parental rights to rapists, and better alternatives for women who have been raped.
Here's my problem with this approach: none of those points really make the argument that abortion is wrong. How can I say that? Well, let's invert them all. What if:
* Abortion actually helped rape victims heal.
* Carrying a rape-caused pregnancy to term really did cause further psychological damage to the mother.
* The Mahkorn study was totally wrong.
* Rapists' children were likely to grow up to be scumbags like their fathers.
* Rape victims were all alone, abandoned by society, and helpless to prevent their rapists from inflicting further damage by seizing custody of their children.
Imagine for a moment that all of the above statements were actually true. Does that justify abortion? If not, why not?
Most importantly, if none of the above statements would justify abortion, then that implies that there is another argument against abortion that would trump all of them. And there is: the innocent life of the child. So why aren't we presenting that argument as the centerpiece of our case? Worse yet, by failing to defend the child's life in a clear and forceful manner, are we not implicitly agreeing with the pro-choice propaganda?
Achromic:
I know the FDA bowed down to the right wing political pressure to ban certian drugs.
Which drugs? Both the abortion pill (RU486) and the morning-after pill are available in this country. They are FDA-approved.
However, the FDA did recently delay its pending decision to make the morning-after pill available OTC, without a prescription. You can still get the morning-after pill, but you need a prescription to get it. Planned Parenthood dispensed the morning-after pill to over 700,000 women in 2003....
Naaman,
Forgive my rambling and moving off topic, but you raised some good questions. 
It is true that no pro-lifer told Jillian that abortion was OK. It is also true, unfortunately, that very few of us were willing to tell her that it was wrong. We hinted at it, sure, but we never really said it.
I think that there is a good reason that no one came out and said that abortion is wrong. This does little good to someone who has either already had an abortion or is contemplating abortion but does not feel that it is wrong. You can talk until you are blue in the face about how wrong abortion is, but if the other person has a different view than you, it doesn’t matter, and your opinion is only going to push her away from your seemingly judgmental view. In Jillian’s case, the abortion is over with, and she emphatically does not see it as being wrong. What is your telling her it was wrong going to do for her?
Most importantly, if none of the above statements would justify abortion, then that implies that there is another argument against abortion that would trump all of them. And there is: the innocent life of the child. So why aren't we presenting that argument as the centerpiece of our case? Worse yet, by failing to defend the child's life in a clear and forceful manner, are we not implicitly agreeing with the pro-choice propaganda?
In this case, the abortion is over with. The only thing that is left to do is befriend the woman and let her know you care about her, using this as a way to share God’s love with her. Starting off by telling her she was wrong and acting like you care more about the baby than you do her is not a great way to start the conversation. I have made this point here: http://theprowomanprolifer.blogs...tians-
cite.html and here: http://theprowomanprolifer.blogs...ffer-
agape.html.
It’s difficult to remember that, while the child is innocent and deserving of protection, the woman is the person we need to reach. The easiest way to do that is to find out what is keeping her from giving birth and work on that angle. For most women, that is not going to be a discussion about her unborn child, which is why using this as the centerpiece of your case is going to backfire. You will have a much better impact if you put her concerns first. Deal with those. If she can’t feel okay with parenting, she’s going to look to abortion as a solution. Defending the child’s life in a “clear and forceful manner” is going to push her soooo far away from you that you won’t stand a chance to help. You’re not agreeing with pro-choice propaganda by doing this, you’re simply using a strategy that works. She does have a choice. No amount of forceful defense is going to make that go away.
All this is just my humble opinion of course. 
We all have different approaches. This is what I have found works the best with the women I work with.
Forgive my rambling and moving off topic, but you raised some good questions.
Thank you for taking the time to respond, and for doing so in a thoughtful manner.
I think that there is a good reason that no one came out and said that abortion is wrong. This does little good to someone who has either already had an abortion or is contemplating abortion but does not feel that it is wrong.
I will admit that I am not experienced in the field of crisis pregnancy counselling. As far as I know, I have never once convinced anyone to refuse abortion, and I will yield to your greater experience in this area. Furthermore, I hope to volunteer with a CPC in my area some day (if they'll take me), so I will be happy to learn from you.
However, that's not Jillian's case, as you mention later....
You can talk until you are blue in the face about how wrong abortion is, but if the other person has a different view than you, it doesn’t matter, and your opinion is only going to push her away from your seemingly judgmental view.
Here, we most emphatically disagree. Firstly, it is not my opinion that abortion is wrong; it is fact, and I am prepared to prove that case. Describing the wrongness of abortion as a mere "opinion" is accepting a large part of the pro-choice rhetoric, even if that's not what you mean to do.
"Your opinion is one thing, mine is something else, and you have no right to force your opinion on me!"
Secondly, the whole point of debate is to present differing arguments, support them, and seek a conclusion. If nobody is willing to tell a pro-choicer that his/her views are wrong, then they will never have the opportunity to change. Looking back, I am very glad that there were people (especially my wife) who were willing to tell me that my pro-abortion views were wrong. It didn't accomplish much beyond fighting at first, but the cumulative effect was to wear away at my stubborn heart until I was ready for conversion.
That said, one must always, always be respectful when debating. You are absolutely correct that nothing is gained by shouting and name-calling.
In Jillian’s case, the abortion is over with, and she emphatically does not see it as being wrong. What is your telling her it was wrong going to do for her?
As you've said, her abortion was over & done. Furthermore, as her previous comments indicated, Jillian was neither questioning nor seeking with an open heart. On the contrary, she was fighting, ranting, kicking, and screaming.
Please forgive me if this seems too paternalistic, but such a person does not need sweetness & sympathy. She needs to be (respectfully, of course) confronted with the Truth until something penetrates her defenses.
(More response later; must dash!)
Naaman, I understand your zeal. I have to agree with Annie and the other women here, though, that Jillian is not ready to hear our arguments for the life of the child.
Archbishop Sheen put it this way: "No person is ever made better by having someone else tell him how rotten he is; but many are made better by avowing the guilt themselves."
In the internet forum, I think we have a responsibility to discuss right and wrong, and the immorality of abortion - in general terms, so those who have ears to hear, can hear.
But, when we are confronted with an individual who is suffering as greatly as this one is, we are abusing her again if we "get in her face" by adjudging her actions as right or wrong. Right now, she is steaming with justifiable anger, violation, and rage. I am an amateur - I have no words that will help her, and so I think it's best if I don't even try.
I will, however, take up the subject on my blog someday, I'm sure. And I will probably do it very much the same way Rachel did, by reporting on studies and testimony; and someone will be inadvertently hurt by me for doing it. I hope to take from this the knowledge that the internet audience includes people like Jillian, whose wounds are open and bleeding.
PW....it is excatly your type of argue that has at times struck my heart... it is true that I have not changed my mind but it is your way of argueing that has tugged at my heart the most.
Naamen I like you but sometimes you make me want to just keep finding more ways to prove you wrong... because your rightousness is sometimes ... harsh. However you have confused me more then once I do admit. You have made me learn about my postion more and more. Such as with the pills... I was sure that they were still illegel.... I'm now feel very unsure of the whole subject because I havn't looked it up, but I will.
I honsetly think there was no right way to fight/debat with Jillain.... she is to hurt, to heartsick, still there in her head. There isn't any good ways to talk with someone that is still fighting with the demons in thier head. They will only demonize you and that does nothing.
Thanks for the response Naaman. I can understand your zeal too. I did things much the same way you did when I started. Your heart is in the right place.
Here, we most emphatically disagree. Firstly, it is not my opinion that abortion is wrong; it is fact, and I am prepared to prove that case. Describing the wrongness of abortion as a mere "opinion" is accepting a large part of the pro-choice rhetoric, even if that's not what you mean to do. "Your opinion is one thing, mine is something else, and you have no right to force your opinion on me!"
Yes, it is fact. You’re right. But to someone who does not see it as fact, it isn’t going to make it fact by you just telling her it is. She is going to view it as your opinion, and it is going to be the wrong opinion to have in her eyes. She will end the conversation or go on the defensive. She will not trust you to help her, because she is still considering abortion, and you aren’t going to allow her to think that option through.
Secondly, the whole point of debate is to present differing arguments, support them, and seek a conclusion. If nobody is willing to tell a pro-choicer that his/her views are wrong, then they will never have the opportunity to change. Looking back, I am very glad that there were people (especially my wife) who were willing to tell me that my pro-abortion views were wrong. It didn't accomplish much beyond fighting at first, but the cumulative effect was to wear away at my stubborn heart until I was ready for conversion.
I think I’ve found the issue. We cannot debate with someone who is considering abortion – even if you are doing so respectfully. Never, ever, ever. This is much more delicate than a debate. The stakes are much higher. She is in a much too sensitive, emotional state for debate. So was Jillian, and so are many post-abortive women. A debate would be perceived as an attack, a fight, a judgment, an “I’m-better-than-you argument” rather than what you want it to be – a “My way is truth while yours is not.”
It’s much different if you are in a debate forum or if you are not a pregnant or post-abortive women, as it was in your case. I can debate my pro-choice friend and make good points, hopefully win. I have done it before with pregnant women to watch it backfire. You need a much softer tone when helping a woman before or after the decision.
Please forgive me if this seems too paternalistic, but such a person does not need sweetness & sympathy. She needs to be (respectfully, of course) confronted with the Truth until something penetrates her defenses.
I think there is a way to speak truth with sweetness and sympathy in a way that goes deeper than “abortion is wrong.” The word “confront” is another no-no in working with women in this setting. What does a confrontation do but provoke defense? Wouldn’t it be better not to upset her and turn her away from you?
"Wouldn’t it be better not to upset her and turn her away from you?"
God is the One who changes hearts - we do not. We are challenged to speak the truth in love, and sometimes that truth is not well received.
Our lives are a journey - sometimes our journey has bumps in the road. Some are boulders and one of those boulders can be abortion. If we deny that abortion is bad for women, even to a woman who has had an abortion, then we are denying that the abortion is wrong in all cases. We are saying, in essense, it is better that you like me than you turn away from me so I will not speak the truth because I fear I will not be liked.
Christ did not mince words - and we are called to be Christlike...those of us who are Christians, that is. We must gently, lovingly and kindly help people with understanding the truth.
God will do the rest.
Blessings -
Julie:
Naaman, I understand your zeal. I have to agree with Annie and the other women here, though, that Jillian is not ready to hear our arguments for the life of the child.
It is my opinion that Jillian was not ready to hear anything that disagreed with her. Look at the way she tore into those of you who were trying to be "nice" and non-judgemental. Look at how she tore into Rachael, who practically tied herself into a knot to avoid offending! Look at the one comment that she added to this discussion.
Jillian came to the discussion ready to fight. That's totally obvious from her words & behavior.
She's wounded by her past. Please believe me, I get that. If she had been looking for help, or healing, or just a place to cry out the anguish of her heart ... I would have posted differently. Actually, I probably would have remained silent.
Instead, she came out swinging. If she wants a fight, I don't see anything wrong with giving it to her. I don't really expect to change her mind. As Lee Anne pointed out, the Holy Spirit changes hearts, not us.
Archbishop Sheen put it this way: "No person is ever made better by having someone else tell him how rotten he is; but many are made better by avowing the guilt themselves."
Not to be rude, but the Archbishop must have been mistaken. The whole point of the Law (as Paul explained in Romans) is to hold up a mirror to mankind's depravity. Yes, true repentance requires accepting the truth of one's own sin. However, I am uncertain how such acceptance will occur if we are not willing to confront others.
But, when we are confronted with an individual who is suffering as greatly as this one is, we are abusing her again if we "get in her face" by adjudging her actions as right or wrong.
I understand that Jillian has suffered greatly. Again, she's clearly not listening to the "soft" option either. Might as well give her some hard truth.
Also, actions are right, wrong, or neutral ... and Christians are called to judge them as such. I am not judging Jillian's heart, because only Christ can do that. Her actions were wrong, and her continued & strident defense of them is also wrong.
I hope to take from this the knowledge that the internet audience includes people like Jillian, whose wounds are open and bleeding.
Here is the root of our disagreement, I think. If I had seen any "bleeding wounds", I would have held my tongue.
Jillian's wounds are real and deep, but they aren't bleeding. Her wounds are covered by years of protective scarring. One day, those wounds will bleed. If not in this life, then they will bleed in the Judgement to come, when all of us (myself included) will be called to account for our deeds.
Achro:
PW....it is excatly your type of argue that has at times struck my heart... it is true that I have not changed my mind but it is your way of argueing that has tugged at my heart the most.
You're different from Jillian. Surely you can see that? Even when I get you mad, as I did on the "pro-abortion" post a while ago, you still keep a basically open mind. You're willing to listen, even if you passionately disagree with much of what I say.
To put it another way: If your comments were like hers, I probably would've banned you from my comments after a few terse warnings. Instead, I often find myself writing precisely to read your response.
Naamen I like you but sometimes you make me want to just keep finding more ways to prove you wrong... because your rightousness is sometimes ... harsh.
I'm not righteous, and I've never claimed to be. I do have a problem with arrogance sometimes, which tends to give a similar impression....
By all means, please prove me wrong! If I'm wrong about something, I want to know that. Who wants to remain in ignorance?
You have made me learn about my postion more and more. Such as with the pills... I was sure that they were still illegel.... I'm now feel very unsure of the whole subject because I havn't looked it up, but I will.
That is the difference about you, Achromic. Too many people are unwilling to question themselves.
I honsetly think there was no right way to fight/debat with Jillain.... she is to hurt, to heartsick, still there in her head. There isn't any good ways to talk with someone that is still fighting with the demons in thier head. They will only demonize you and that does nothing.
We agree completely, except I would also add angry to your description above.
At the risk of being redundant: Jillian was clearly not listening to the kind & gentle approach. Why not confront her with the truth? Even if she doesn't get it, maybe someone else who reads the discussion will get it.
PWPL:
Thanks for the response Naaman. I can understand your zeal too. I did things much the same way you did when I started. Your heart is in the right place.
Thank you for the compliment.
Yes, it is fact. You’re right. But to someone who does not see it as fact, it isn’t going to make it fact by you just telling her it is. She is going to view it as your opinion, and it is going to be the wrong opinion to have in her eyes.
Well, I am prepared to prove that it is fact. I certainly don't expect anyone to take a pseudonymous blogger at his word.
She will end the conversation or go on the defensive. She will not trust you to help her, because she is still considering abortion, and you aren’t going to allow her to think that option through.
Do you honestly think that Jillian was looking for help? She started attacking with her first comment, and didn't let up no matter how nice you were.
I think you're absolutely right about your approach to a vulnerable woman who is considering abortion. She needs gentleness, and one false word can send her right into the nearest Planned Parenthood clinic. But that's not Jillian's situation.
I think I’ve found the issue. We cannot debate with someone who is considering abortion – even if you are doing so respectfully. Never, ever, ever.
Again, I will defer to your superior expertise in this area. However, Jillian wasn't in that situation. She came out swinging, and y'all ducked.
She is in a much too sensitive, emotional state for debate. So was Jillian, and so are many post-abortive women.
Emotional, yes. Sensitive, no, not in Jillian's case anyway:
"When you get raped and someone steals your body and your fertility and enforcibly impregnates you, you get to choose what to do. To deny another woman in the same situation a choice is as bad as raping her all over again. You are essentially her second rapist."
"You may not like her choice, and you may never choose what she did in that situation, but you'll never be her and you'll never be in her particular situation. Therefore the choice is never yours to make, nor is it right for you to persuade her to do anything other than what SHE chooses to do."
"I'm not having a hard time dealing with the rape. I'm having a hard time dealing with the *content removed by site owner* people like you who think you can speak for me, who think you can trample all over my real feelings and my real experiences by claiming they're false and that I would have been better if I'd done what you would force me to do."
That's just her first three posts. She came out ready to fight. Fine, let's fight.
I think there is a way to speak truth with sweetness and sympathy in a way that goes deeper than “abortion is wrong.” The word “confront” is another no-no in working with women in this setting. What does a confrontation do but provoke defense? Wouldn’t it be better not to upset her and tu
Dang, got cut off....
I think there is a way to speak truth with sweetness and sympathy in a way that goes deeper than “abortion is wrong.” The word “confront” is another no-no in working with women in this setting. What does a confrontation do but provoke defense? Wouldn’t it be better not to upset her and turn her away from you?
Lee Anne answered this point nicely:
"God is the One who changes hearts - we do not. We are challenged to speak the truth in love, and sometimes that truth is not well received."
Well -- this has been a most interesting discussion. I have been silent -- partly because it is a bit too close for comfort.
My pregnancy that ended in abortion was a result of rape -- probably the type of rape that goes unreported as the victim blames herself for being stupid enough to allow herself to trust. My rape was done by someone who seemed nice -- we drank -- we danced -- we laughed -- we drank -- then when the gal that was supposed to give me a ride home -- cause we went to this event together -- was no where around -- I asked this nice gentleman for a ride home.
I was distraught when I found out I was pregnant -- ashamed, embarrassed, angry at myself for being so stupid -- didn't want to shame myself or my family. Did I say I was distraught?
I was pro-life -- still am -- and all those I reached out too -- said abortion was my best option.
Abortion was traumatic and I was a mess but I do remember feeling much like Jillian for a while. I felt like a good person -- it was not my fault -- and everytime the abortion issue would come up I would defend it -- but really I was defending myself -- my worth -- my value.
I think this debate at times is done focusing on one side or the other -- I don't think much progress is done unless both halves are acknowleged -- the truth about the humanity and worth of the child and the truth about the worth and hurt that the woman has endured -- or at least for me.
I say this cause my husband told his sister about my abortion and I was mad -- because my sister-in-law in my eyes was a religious nut and I knew she would just hate me.
Well we were having this family gathering -- after my mother's death which was the same year OJ murdered his wife -- my mother-in-law said Nicole deserved to die because she had had several abortions. My sister-in-law took a look at me and said "let's go walk" I was thinking great -- it's time to fight and defend my worth. I was all ready for the same fight I had been having for years.
My sister-in-law looked at me and said "I can't even imagine how much pain you must have gone through"
What? With that one compassionate sentence my walls of defense all came crashing down -- yes -- I hurt -- yes -- it was hard.
That one statement of compassion started me on the road to healing.
Lee Anne:
God is the One who changes hearts - we do not. We are challenged to speak the truth in love, and sometimes that truth is not well received.
I quite agree. Although I think that serving the truth up in a way that the individual person is more likely to understand is better than using the same approach for each person.
Our lives are a journey - sometimes our journey has bumps in the road. Some are boulders and one of those boulders can be abortion. If we deny that abortion is bad for women, even to a woman who has had an abortion, then we are denying that the abortion is wrong in all cases. We are saying, in essense, it is better that you like me than you turn away from me so I will not speak the truth because I fear I will not be liked.
Not at all. Abortion is always the wrong choice. You will never hear me say otherwise. This isn’t about being liked at all...it’s about breaking through to a person who is in crisis – ready to jump off a bridge for instance. Do you reach out to that person on your terms and in a way that you can understand? Or do you reach out to the person in a way that she will understand, using the things that are important to her?
Christ did not mince words - and we are called to be Christlike...those of us who are Christians, that is. We must gently, lovingly and kindly help people with understanding the truth.
Amen to that.
Naaman,
I think you're absolutely right about your approach to a vulnerable woman who is considering abortion. She needs gentleness, and one false word can send her right into the nearest Planned Parenthood clinic. But that's not Jillian's situation.
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I was not referring to Jillian in the majority of my responses. I was referring to any woman considering abortion, but I do feel that the same gentleness should be used with any post-abortive woman. Jillian is obviously scarred from the rape, and she needs to work through the emotions that are tied to her rape. I don't think that anything anyone said could've gone over well with Jillian, as she needs a professional therapist.
Instead, she came out swinging. If she wants a fight, I don't see anything wrong with giving it to her.
I do have a hard time with this. I don’t feel that this is either (1) Christlike or (2) going to do a bit of good. You think this is a good idea because someone else might read what you've written and realize that what they did was wrong?
Sensitive, no, not in Jillian's case anyway.
See, I think she was hyper-sensitive. She came out swinging because Rachael struck a nerve, and she felt she needed to defend herself. “Fighting” with her in return only pushed her further away, and could have further made her believe the lie that "pro-lifers" are "against" her.
Susan G,
Thank you for sharing your story. I am so glad that your sister-in-law was able to be compassionate to you. Those defenses can melt away in the face of gentleness and love.
I just talked with someone I had known years ago. We just recently started to catch up with each others lives. She told me her sister is raising the child she conceived from being raped and is very happy to have this child. She, at first went through hell, but with the support of her family and friends she is now leading a very happy and healthy life.
In her case her child saved her....
Like anothe poster mentioned, Jillian has some raw wounds and my post uninentionally hurt Jillian further. Wherein I'm usually straight-forward with my pro-life beliefs, I felt in Jillian's case, where she's hurting, it'd be better to respond with a compassionate approach, rather than confrontational, so that we could earn her trust to try to reach out to her. However, like someone else also said, she wasn't looking for comfort or healing, she came in with her defenses up and was ready to fight (essentially in fight or flight mode). I do think confronting her would of only further pushed her away and furthered the impression that all pro-lifers are women-hating and judgemental. But I also think that she is too hurt, and understandably her defensive wall is up, to where she is not ready for the truth, to trust others, and or find healing. Perhaps, hopefully someday she will find peace.
PWPL - "Do you reach out to that person on your terms and in a way that you can understand? Or do you reach out to the person in a way that she will understand, using the things that are important to her?"
Before I speak to someone in crisis, I pray - "Come Holy Spirit - get me out of the way and let me do Your Will."
Speak the truth in love, is what I wrote...and that is something I try very hard to do. My fiance at the time, now husband, upon hearing that I had had an abortion, told me I had killed my child. Of course, I had all the pat answers to deflect his hardness of heart.
I know that I would NEVER say that to another living person regarding their actions.
Truth in love - Holy Spirit ... I am tellin' ya - He has His work cut out for Him!!!
Blessings -
Lee Anne,
Thanks for sharing. It sounds like we work in much the same way. God bless you as you work to help women and their families.
Naaman, you confuse me.
You write, "Look at the way she tore into those of you who were trying to be "nice" and non-judgemental"
I wasn't trying to be "nice." Niceness is not something I suffer from, and there's not one thing nice about any of this. It is wrong to abort a child for any reason because it takes a human life. Where have I failed to judge this act? I have not. I simply refuse to confront a woman who is hurting this much.
You don't seem to hear her pain in her anger, and perhaps that's because you have not experienced the anger of someone who has been overpowered and victimized. Anger is a sign of pain - we feel it in response to attack. I have been a very angry woman for twenty-six years. I think I can speak about it with confidence. She hurts, so she lashes out at us. I can take it - can you?
Again, I tell you, in the abstract we can be as harsh as truth about the sin. In person, we must FORGIVE the sinner, and that means treating her with respect. This is the Archbishop's point, as well as what Lee Ann said: God changes hearts, not us.
Then you continue, "Again, she's clearly not listening to the "soft" option either. Might as well give her some hard truth." Why? She isn't listening. Why? She didn't even come here - she was led by Annie's comment, so it's not as if she walked in the door looking for a fight. She was "over there," at Abortion Clinic Days with like-minded people. So tell me why, as others have said so well, do we want to drive her away from this source of help? When she is over the anger stage of her post-traumatic response, if ever, she may want to find healing. You are throwing her away if you say, "well, she doesn't like us anyway, so let's just have at her, no holds barred."
Naaman, your tone has changed in recent times, as Achro said. You are becoming harsh. May I ask, and I don't mean to offend, but - with a little Naaman on the way who is at a vulnerable age, are you identifying too closely here? Is there a personal reason for what seems to be a lack of charity and forgiveness on your part (or am I misunderstanding your tone)? You see, I feel in your harsh response to Jillian that any sympathy or kindness you express to me, also post-abortive and with no good reason, is false. If you don't forgive her, you don't forgive me, or Achro, or Lee Ann, or Susan G., or yourself. How many "Jillians" have you escorted, Naaman?
Well, I hope I won't be reprimanded for my own tone, here. I don't intend to be harsh, either, but I will defend a woman's right to live free of abuse from anyone for any reason. Our Lord told people the truth, but He didn't bash them over their heads with it while they writhed in pain.
Oops. Okay, my last comment was uncalled for.
I should explain my anger - first, I've been a victim of male abuse. Secondly, my mother was a rape victim at the age of thirteen. Twenty years later, when she sought an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy, she screamed throughout the procedure and had to be held down by nurses. She didn't have to say she was reliving her rape; she looked it during the retelling.
My anger is in defense of myself and my mom as well as Jillian. Naaman, I'm afraid you are the wrong gender for me to be having this conversation, because I will tend to see you as a victimizer, even though that isn't who you are. I apologize for my tone and any words that are irreparably hurtful to you and others.
Thank you, everyone.
The perspective I'm bringing to this this morning is that I have a colleague who is extremely sensitive, who insists that others never say or do anything that triggers her. In this case, she wants me to forbid another woman from coming to a meeting who has a baby. Babies trigger her.
The world can't stop spinning because we might trigger someone.
People have to be willing to heal their triggers. People have to be willing to distinguish between people with hard hearts who don't care if they speak with disrespect and ugliness, and others who are speaking the truth with respect.
You can't get into a thing of walking on eggshells around someone who thinks she is a victim if something you say, do, wear or look like triggers her own out-of-control feelings.
I donno folks, perhaps it is my prejudices against men but I always give Naamen a little more leeway because he CAN'T have been thru' what we have. He is out of control even if he does care about a baby that might be his. But he is never as there as we are. Never feels the quiet the same way as we do during a preg. He has his own feelings which are valid but even if we have not aborted we have all had the idea in our head at one time or another of being preg. and having no one to turn to or trust. I think it is why many people think that a man doesn't belong in this conversation.... but I do. I think we need to hear from the men about what they are going thru' even if it isn't in the same way as we go thru it.
As for your christlike ablities.... as I recall he got pretty mad at the tax collectors but was kind to the adlutrous woman. Perhaps because greed is a bigger sin then lust or perhaps because mistakes done in lust and love are more understandable and forgivable. And perhaps we should take a note of that and remember that our real anger should be at the goverment that does every single thing as @#$@*#&^@! as it can and leaves us to clean up the mess when it destroys some one that we love or care about.
Rape is always hard.... it makes all of us pissed ... just the idea of forceing somoeone ... it is disgusting and horrible.... and we are helpless to take away the pain of it's victims. I don't know if abortion is a good or bad thing for a victim of rape. I just don't.... I think that it is something that the rape victim must decide and she is in a bad contion to do so. Which is why, I will say again, it is important to think about that decsion before hand... and talk to your kids when they are ... of age.... and think thru' this because rape can happen to any of us.
Achro - Christ did indeed get mad at the tax collectors...but Christ did not sin in his anger. That is what we are to emulate. It is difficult to detach oneself from sin when one is angry - not just lust and love - but greed and avarice as well as a myriad of other sins.
Namaan does indeed need to speak up - men are after all, half of the equation of the baby's DNA.
I had a friend who used to sit and cry because his girlfriend had aborted their child. He was in such pain over it... At the time, I was in denial and could not fathom WHY he would be so upset. I sat and held his hand, but could not engage in his thinking - it was way too bizarre to me. Like you, my thinking was he had never carried the child within his womb and therefore he could not possibly know why his girlfriend had decided to abort their baby.
However, I have since counseled with other men who have lost children through abortion and I understand their feelings of helplessness and frustration. Indeed, the law is against them - and men are to be protectors of their families. In the abortion problem, they cannot protect their child/ren.
Blessings -
Em, am I walking on eggshells because I won't engage Jillian in an argument about whether her abortion was the wrong thing to do? I guess I really don't understand.
When I am in the heat of anger, I cannot listen. After I calm down, I may remember what I heard, but quite frankly, not if you have triggered a traumatic memory in some way. I really do black out. Sorry, but my brain goes away during these moments. So I don't see the help in it when someone is in the middle of a flare of anger as Jillian is/was.
From a Christian perspective, what about leading others to sin? Why would we want to lead Jillian into a more angry response during which she may think, do, or say things that are sinful, and therefore, harmful to her soul?
Maybe this is my problem. I really don't want to sit in a group of post-abortive women in sackcloth and ashes so pro-life people have a group of sinners they can point to, and say, "Oh, these are the women we can feel sorry for, sympathy for, compassion for, etc., because they are sorry." What about the women who aren't sorry? Chuck 'em? Can't I respect their pain even if they have no regrets?
Yes, I am heartily sorry for having aborted my child, because it offended God. Because it offended HIM. Not because it offended anyone else. And Naaman was led to the truth, not by the truth itself, but as he says in his own words, by love - his wife was able to help him see the truth, and she must have done it with love.
"I really don't want to sit in a group of post-abortive women in sackcloth and ashes so pro-life people have a group of sinners they can point to, and say, "Oh, these are the women we can feel sorry for, sympathy for, compassion for, etc., because they are sorry." What about the women who aren't sorry? Chuck 'em? Can't I respect their pain even if they have no regrets?"
Julie...I don't know where you get the idea that this is what pro-life women, myself for one, do.
I feel sorry and compassionate for every woman and man who has lost a child...through an accident, through an abortion, through natural death.
A person does not come to a retreat to work through their abortion if they do not feel any regret.
When a woman/man realizes that their abortion took the life of their offspring, it can often be terrifying. That is where the pro-life people are available - for them at their time of chaos and lunacy that often follows abortion...perhaps six months down the line, perhaps 20 years or more down the line.
We are all sinners, Julie. I, a sinner, do not take delight in another person's sins.
We do offend God by abortion. We do need to be reconciled with Him. However, having written that, we live in community - in society, and when we sin against God, we also sin against one another. No one has to apologize to me or anyone else - true. But that does not mean that I cannot help you along your path of sorting it all out.
I am but a vessel for God's use - - not to condemn anyone but to help those who need help. To speak the truth in love.
Blessings -
Julie - just a quick question...do you think that your abortion offended your child? You write that it offended no one but God...
Blessings -
Em, am I walking on eggshells because I won't engage Jillian in an argument about whether her abortion was the wrong thing to do? I guess I really don't understand.
Obviously, I'm not Emily, but I don't think that what you or I are doing is walking on eggshells. Walking on eggshells, to me, in the case of someone like Jillian, would be to avoid this discussion for fear of upsetting someone. It would be akin to Rachael closing down or deleting her entry because it hurt Jillian or might offend someone.
Engaging someone who is lashing out in anger because of a prior trauma...engaging that person in an argument is not helpful. It is helpful and loving to remind her that we care for her even though her actions were not right - to radiate God's love to her even in the midst of her attacks.
"A person does not come to a retreat to work through their abortion if they do not feel any regret."
Lee Anne,
I have had several individuals who came on retreat -- in terrible pain from their abortion -- but with no regrets.
Abortion in their experience was the right thing to do and they would do it again -- they just wanted the pain to go away.
Susan G.-Project Rachel retreats are for those who are experiencing difficulties with their abortion and wanting healing from it.
If you want the pain to go away, you have to recognize how the pain got there in the first place. If one comes on a retreat with not regretting their abortion, the retreat is nonsensical.
Or is it?
I believe the retreats are led by the Holy Spirit, not by mere man. Perhaps the retreatants that came not regretting came away with a different feeling.
The bottom line was my answer to Julie - the facilitators on the retreat do NOT sit around taking delight in others misery...or sin.
Blessings -
Halo Scan is acting up - - the last post was posted, as Achromic well knows , by Lee Anne who is also posting this one.
Thanks, PWPL and Julie, for answering Naaman's points. Naaman, I don't agree that if someone in her situation wants a fight, we ought to give it to her. That's a combative attitude. That's just not like you to say! And further, why "prove" that her belief about prolife people being antagonistic is correct, even if it wasn't us who began being that way? If someone in her situation isn't listening to the soft, caring approach, that isn't reason to switch to the hardline, blunt truth. If we don't keep trying to prove to her that we give a damn about HER, not just her baby, then nothing we do or say will ever matter.
Speak the truth in love, as Lee Anne (I think) said. If a person is too angry or combative to hear what we say, (or too fearful or too whatever), getting angry or combative back only escalates the worst in us both.
I don't think it's walking on eggshells, either. I agree that deleting the entire thing, backing down, would have been eggshell walking, but Rachael didn't do that, nor are we. We've tried to keep the dialogue going with Jillian and any others in her situation.
"Where charity and love prevail..."
Susan G., wow. Your story brought tears to my eyes. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. I know that was hard to do. You are blessed to have such a sister-in-law.
Em, am I walking on eggshells because I won't engage Jillian in an argument about whether her abortion was the wrong thing to do?
I don't think so. I wouldn't engage her in that argument either.
I guess I just wanted to throw out there (based on a recent experience with someone who really seems to believe that if any ol' thing triggers her, she is a victim and someone else is at fault) that at the end of the day, people are responsible for managing their own triggers and their own anger.
"I was thinking great -- it's time to fight and defend my worth. I was all ready for the same fight I had been having for years." wrote Susan G.
You know, Susan, I think you have hit the abortion nail on its proverbial head!
When I defended my abortion, it was defending not my right to kill my child, but the fact that I had done so. It was something I had to be okay with. It was something that had been chosen for me, yes, but something that somehow I had acquiesed (sp?) to.
It was my self worth that was as thin as a baby's hair and it was so easily breakable that I had to defend my self worth - not my abortion but ME.
Self worth - pregnant at seventeen due to a one night stand...two pregnancies by eighteen due to two one night stands - self worth - nowhere to be seen.
No self worthy person would have gotten pregnant twice in the same manner - I was just stupid and dumb and gosh darn it, I was also blonde! AND then no self worthy person would have aborted a child, even though they did not know, true story, what the word meant.
I had to defend myself against being stupid, dumb and blonde! (I now dye my hair red)
I am grateful that your sister in law spoke loving words to you - I pray that I can be as kind and loving to others who are also hurting.
blessings - Lee Anne (in case Halo Scan is still making me anonymous)
Lee Ann, I am sorry about my remarks. They were unthinking, or I did too much thinking, or something. The sackcloth and ashes part was just...well, I don't know what it was. Bitchy, probably. I am not all that well put together. I didn't see "you" in that light, except as sitting next to me - I was thinking about pro-lifers who don't have experience who stand in judgment against women who won't say they are sorry. Hey, as I said, I'm not well. I haven't had the privilege of a healing group, good medical care, or therapy, or even a whole lot of old fashioned compassion. (My bad, no aid required - I'll get there some day, maybe)
I did not, however, say that only God was offended by my abortion. I said I was sorry only because I had offended God, not sorry because I had offended any strangers, but it was rude of me either way. Rude, and not entirely accurate, which your question about how my child feels points out - but not in a nice way. Some eggshells under your feet there would have been appreciated, but I suppose I didn't deserve them.
Of course, you are absolutely right: my action had a negative impact on society, and when I develop a higher social conscience, I will be more aware of this aspect of killing my babies. And I have no doubt that my children are really ticked off at me for stealing their lives. I can barely get through each day with this knowledge, and can't see through my tears right now. Emotional upheaval is my status quo.
So why would you doubt that I feel that pain? What did I say to make you doubt me, or accuse me of feeling none? The unspoken accusation hurts because it is untrue, and I really don't see how it will help me heal.
For that matter, why do we doubt that Jillian feels any guilt about her abortion? She is overwhelmed by anger at this moment, and we aren't the people she would trust with her deepest emotions, particularly since we are trying to assign a lack of feeling to her that we can't prove exists. Why are we trying to figure out what is in the hearts of specific people anyway, when only God knows the human heart?
Emily, I have experienced the frustration you are feeling toward your associate, as the cause of it. I am often unwilling to make the sacrifice of pain for the sake of this work, and I am sure it bothers people who are. I can only do what I can do, and apparently only a little at a time. I am sorry your friend is so bothered by the presence of babies. I was there once, but God has helped me get past it. Give her time, exposure, love, and encouragement, and she can come around - if I can, anyone can.
That last "Anon" was me, Julie, at Abortion Hurts. I'm sorry I didn't see I wasn't automatically logged in.
Anonymous, I too once thought that my baby was ticked off at me for stealing her life, and it kept me from facing any of it for decades, I couldn't bear it either. I couldn't forgive myself, thinking she hated me. Thinking she had a right to hate me.
That all started to change when I started talking to the Rachel's Vineyard retreat director in my area. I talked to her on the phone 3 times over the course of a year before I committed to going on the retreat, all the while thinking, "I can back out anytime even at the last minute, if I just can't face this."
What I've learned is that our babies don't hate us. They don't condemn us. They love us, and pray for us, even if we don't deserve it or don't feel we do. There's a meditation during the RV weekend that just blew me away, about reuniting with my daughter, in my mind, with God there, and it allowed me to see that our babies don't hate us, that they're with God, in His care now, and that while we still hate what we did, we don't have to hate ourselves for it or think that our babies do either.
Remember: "You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord."
They don't want you or me or any of us to suffer this torment. They really don't. I swear to you, you too will feel their love and forgiveness on such a retreat or one of the other good postabortion recovery ministries. I personally don't know a soul who's gone on one and didn't, and there are at least 25,000 of us former RV retreatants so far.
Julie, I really appreciate your thoughts and opinions on this.
Your child loves and forgives you and one day you will experience and know that.
This probably wasn't the right day for me to drop in and express my frustrations!
Know of my prayers and love.
Annie and Em, thank you for your kindness - it always shows. This discussion is going to blow me away for a long time. (Achro, I am going deep into the cave, and I am lost). Please forgive my emotional responses and lack of charity.
I really, really, really wish I could believe what you say, but if my children have my temperament, they are really, really, ticked at me.
Julie,
My heart goes out to you. I know it's difficult to fathom, but the Bible teaches us that there is no pain or suffering in Heaven. Your posts brought to mind a favorite poem of mine:
Father God, when is my mommy going to be here?
SOON, MY CHILD, SOON.
Can you tell me how long?
THERE IS NO MEASURE OF TIME WITH ME, MY CHILD. SHE IS BUSY RIGHT NOW DOING THE WORK I'VE GIVEN HER TO DO. WHEN ALL THAT IS DONE, SHE'LL BE HERE.
Is she going to know me when she gets here?
YES, SHE WILL, MY CHILD, I'LL LET HER KNOW.
What does she look like, Father God?
WHY SHE LOOKS A LOT LIKE YOU, MY CHILD. THE SAME COLOR HAIR, THE SAME EYES, THE SAME NOSE; YOU RESEMBLE HER A LOT.
What do you think she's going to do when she sees me?
SHE WILL RUN TO YOU, TAKE YOU IN HER ARMS, AND LOVE YOU JUST AS ANY OTHER LOVING MOTHER WOULD DO.
Father God, why has she never held me in her arms before?
SHE NEVER HAD THE CHANCE TO DO SO, MY CHILD.
Why did she never have the chance, Father God?
I DON'T REMEMBER, MY CHILD.
Blessings to you.
Lee Anne wrote:"Project Rachel retreats are for those who are experiencing difficulties with their abortion and wanting healing from it."
Yes that is true -- however on my intake form there is no space for me to ask if those who are in pain from an abortion experience regret their abortions and I have had some come not regretting and I admit it is a surprise -- a surprise I surrender to God -- for I too believe He is the one orchestrating these retreats.
Lee Anne writes: "If you want the pain to go away, you have to recognize how the pain got there in the first place. If one comes on a retreat with not regretting their abortion, the retreat is nonsensical. Or is it?"
You would think that things that are good for us would not cause us such pain -- so much pain we need help to heal from this good thing. You would think that something that causes so much pain would be seen for what it is -- bad. You would think that in order to get well one would have to admit what was wrong.
I agree with this Lee Anne "I believe the retreats are led by the Holy Spirit, not by mere man. Perhaps the retreatants that came not regretting came away with a different feeling."
The Holy Spirit is in charge -- only God knows what is in a heart.
And yes Lee Anne "The bottom line was my answer to Julie - the facilitators on the retreat do NOT sit around taking delight in others misery...or sin." That is true -- most of us have been there done that -- we know where we have been and what is possilbe -- with God.
PWPL, thank you very much for the poem. I needed that comfort. Susan, your voice has penetrated my fuddled mind very well, bringing me clarity. Thank you, too.
I understand your point about healing Lee Ann, and agree with you that it has to come about with acknowledgement of the wrongs we have committed. But I don't know how to describe it, yet. Perhaps as Susan suggests, the Holy Spirit does work in the hearts of those who don't express regrets after they leave the retreats. I hope so. Or perhaps they simply don't express what they are sorry about in a way that satisifies our perceptions of what true contrition should be, but they do so in their hearts, where God understands and sees all. I know that I have a very difficult time expressing my emotions, but trust Him to know what I really mean in spite of my inability to verbalize it well.
Julie, "if my children have my temperament..." Ah, dearie, you and I are more alike than you KNOW!
I am still quite the typical Noo Yawkuh, and I still swear a blue streak (ask anyone here, right? Who was it helping curb me of that bad habit, Ashli? Lee Anne? 
) if ever I am angry or tired and spent. I have real trouble/no tolerance with reckless drivers, and don't suffer fools easily. I really have to watch myself many, many times. Remind myself "I'm a Christian, now watch it!"
I don't know (can't recall) if you have any other kids now, but I know many friends who have multiple kids and they ALL say that each one is different. One's calm, the other's a screaming meemee. My own nephews are like night and day. So yours are probably different from you in some ways anyway!
And remember, they're with God now. All human tendencies to anger have been washed away for them. (At least, that's where I believe they are). Don't know if you're Catholic, so if not, dismiss that part of this story, but please read this ( http://catholicexchange.com/vm/i...26&
art_id=21301 ) knowing that I'm going into that cave with you daily, as are others here I'm sure:
This priest in my parish had said in his homily on All Souls' Day, about aborted and miscarried babies: "I believe that our God is too good and merciful to keep them away from Him."
And once with Him, they will have nothing but compassion for us, because they now know how much we suffer over what we did.
I don't believe this because I want to. I believe this because I really think this is how it is.
Praying for you in my morning and evening prayers esp. this week, dearie. Hang in there.
Julie you are wanted here... with us so don't go any where. The cave is too deep too dark so stay here with us.
"I am not all that well put together"
JULIE!!! You are wonderfully and fearfully made and that makes you very well put together!!!
Julie, I apologize for being uncharitable and insensitive to you in my remark. Please forgive me.
I highly recommend that you at least investigate going on a retreat. On a retreat, the Holy Spirit convicted me that I was nurturing and feeding my victim hood. I did so much to injure myself...even though all looked good on the outside.
My poor husband (a real controlling man - of course, who else could I have chosen?) was so shocked when I returned from my retreat and told him, "I don't know what is going to happen, but I do know that I cannot permit you to abuse me and control me the way you do anymore." His party was over and it was many months of serious discussion and fights and we came close to divorce; but through God's grace, we weathered the storm, found Retrouvaille and today are a 'good couple' for our sons.
The intake people are quite used to having women and men call and just cry - call and talk, call and talk some more and one retreatant that was with us last time took THREE years to actually make a retreat. That is fine - it is in God's timing...
Susan G. - I don't think it is important, thinking upon it, that a woman or man, has to say they 'regret' their abortion - that is so subjective anyway, isn't it? AND, who are we to even ask that question --- but I reckon that they must regret some part of it or they would not be seeking help. And you are right - if abortion is 'good' then why does it hurt so much?
blessings -
Ever splint a broken bone? It hurts a lot without pain meds... it hurts so much but it is still good. Good things can hurt. But I still think that at most abortion to most is a choosing between bad and worse. I don't think that once you are there that there is a good outcome for some....that is the problem.
A broken bone can be mended. A dead child cannot be. Its as simple as that. In abortion a child is killed. Yes, abortion is choosing between bad and worse - it is that indeed. It is never good.
blessings -
Wow, Lee Anne, I didn't know that about you and your hubby. What an amazing "recovery" for you both. I never would have thought that possible, but you are a perfect example of a miracle in a marriage. You give me encouragement!
Saint Maria Goretti, pray for us!
I would say that if you think that Lee Ann, you are limiting G*d.... and I don't do that. I donna have your preconseptions of what happens after death so I have no problem believe that G*d can and does take care of all including the life that I aborted. I am extremly comforted know that G*d choose what happens next and I know that G*d would not leave them broken. Hummm I have more faith then I thought I did when I woke up this morning... thanks.
Achromic - our children are alive in the Lord - most definitely. I am not limiting God in any fashion.
What I did write is that a dead child cannot be mended. They are dead to us at this time. We cannot hold them, we cannot behold their silly antics, smell their sweet heads, laugh with them while we tickle their bellies, watch them drive off to the prom,watch them get married, watch them bring forth new life, our grandchildren.
That is what I was writing - not that God does not hold them in the palm of His Hand.
I am glad that you woke up with more faith this morning!
blessings -
Annie - interestingly enough, when the question, "What did you bring into your marriage that was good for it or bad for it...anyone wish to share?" was asked at a Retrouvaille follow-up session, everyone was quiet.
I spoke up and said, "I had an abortion when I was eighteen and I brought a miscarried baby and an aborted baby into our marriage. This has caused many difficulties."
One by one, three women said they had had abortions. One of the women was trying hard to hold onto her emotions...breathing hard and not looking at anyone, although she did not speak. Four, possible five women in a group of eleven. Very sad, very sad.
I wrote to the Retrouvaille coordinators and I have not heard back from them directly, BUT, I did hear from others at the Retrouvaille follow-up -'thank you for bringing that up' 'you are so brave to talk about this', etc.
The Retrouvaille coordinators did speak to a person in the pro-life movement that I am involved in. Seems that I am in the dog house for having brought up the A word.
I truly believe that abortion is responsible for many divorces - we need to deal with it, be healed from it and live happy lives. It is possible...
I am very grateful to God for His Mercy and Kindness...not to mention His Faithfulness! I should also mention His Patience with me, this crazy old mixed up child of His!
Blessings -
Earlier I tried to post a thank you to you all for your support and encouragement, and to let Lee Ann know she and I are still on good terms, but it disappeared. *sigh* I think it was nicely written for a change, too. The bottom line is that I can't possibly hold on to any hurt for long, because I know in my heart that the people here are caring; they mean well; and for the most part, you've all been where I'm trying to go.
I am very grateful to you all for helping me through the rough moments, and for Lee Ann for giving me a dose of my own truth medicine. I choked on it for awhile; and then I was grateful she helped pull the "gunk" out that was messing up my head.
Annie, when I read your responses to difficult comments, I can hardly believe you have a problem with temperament - you always sound on an even keel to me.
The cave is very dark, but when I reach out, there are all these hands here, reaching back to me - it's not so bad when we don't have to explore alone.
Lee Anne, how do you know you're in the doghouse with Retrouvaille? It is a crying shame if so. Did you tell them that many women thanked you separately for bringing it up? I think they ought to know that. And they ought to consider that this is a valid answer to their question. I'm sorry. Retrouvaille is supposed to be such a wonderful Catholic retreat for married couples. Praying those folks "get it" soon.
Julie, glad to hear from you. The second post was just fine!
"Even keelhaul," maybe! At least in the beginning. I've been baited too easily in the past. I learned a lot from Emily on how to level out (WWED? I ask myself!), and others here have got on my case about the language...to my eternal gratitude...I am a wise-a**, like my mom was. She picked and chose her spots for a little blueness, for comical effect mostly, but she rubbed off on me in that and many other ways (and that was ALL nurture not nature, as I'm adopted!).
Annie B. The Retrouvaille coordinators were quite upset with me for asking the question. I have not heard back from them, although I wrote to them to ask permission to bring Rachel's Vineyard information along to the next meeting. One of the coordinators talked to a professional from a pro-life group and said they wanted to make sure that they changed the wording of the question so that this would not happen in the future. They have not yet written me back.
BUT - that is okay. My husband and I weathered a mini storm today and thanks to our Retrouvaille training, we were able to ride it out without any trouble. The coordinators are just that - they are not the program.
Perhaps they need to come over here and read the blog so they can understand how many are hurting.
Blessings - and hey Julie! Square we are!
"they wanted to make sure that they changed the wording of the question so that this would not happen in the future..."
How blind and shortsighted they are. How sad. Praying they will change their minds on that. And open their hearts. It isn't hard for them to deal with this briefly and refer to RV, they just need to want to help women and men in ALL ways that are needed, not just what they're comfortable with.
Commenting by HaloScan
