Several things from your friend's story rang true with my past. I grew up in the S.Baptist church, and despite several trips down the aisle to be "saved," I was certain I wasn't and also believed I was damned. I was also told to keep my first abortion secret----not by a minister, but by my Bible banging, fundamentalist mother who arranged and paid for it. I slipped into complete and unabridged wildness after that, got pregnant 2 more times and had 2 more abortions.
Sometimes I wish I had died on the table during the first abortion.
Hugs, Kim. The church really needs to squarely address the way they deal with women who've had abortions. Big time.
I suppose. I don't have anything to do with the church I was raised in anymore and I can't stand it when my mother talks about God. She says that she realizes it was a sin now and has asked Jesus to forgive her. After all--"sin is sin and all sins are equal." (Unfortunately the S. Baptists supported a woman's right to an abortion back in the 70's so I guess abortion wasn't really an S. Baptist sin until they changed the ruling). But she won't acknowledge that baby as her first grandchild and doesn't seem to have suffered any grief over the loss; in fact she still thinks it was a sort of necessary evil. I love my mom, but this will always be a sticking point in my relationship with her. She's 75 now so I'm not expecting any pro-life conversion miracles. I would have done whatever she told me to do---and she chose abortion. And then I went promiscuous crazy and had two more.
I am Catholic now, in part because they offered me post-abortion counseling and also because I was dying to confess my abortions to a priest and receive Jesus in the Eucharist.
Sorry, just felt like unloading a little. I don't believe anyone ever truly heals from an abortion. We just get better at dealing with the fact that we did it.
Kim, I'm glad you didn't die on the table after ANY of your abortions, and that you've found some healing. You have reached a better place than you were in, as has Megan, and we--the collective as well as the blog-local--are better for it.
I agree with you--we never really heal from it completely. I don't see how anyone could, really.
I am appalled to hear Christian ministers saying to sweep it under the rug, esp. in favor of making the "appearance" of one's testimony looking better to the rest of the congregation. I can't help but wonder how many women those ministers told that awful thing to?
Kim, don't apologize for unloading! You can be sure that your words are helping others better understand the reality of their own experiences. Thank you.
Kim, I agree with Emily, and thank you for sharing your story. I hear a lot of familiar echoes, and as Em says, it helps me deal with my own abortion problems.
It seems that not all sin is treated equally, after all. There are things so atrocious we don't ever want to discuss them, even for the sake of testifying for the conversion of souls, and abortion is at the top of the list.
Kim, you were not meant to die on the table. I am also very glad you didn't. I have often wished for death, too, for the same reason. But I don't believe our children would have wanted us to spend our lives wanting only to die.
Sometimes, I pray that my children can live through me somehow, now that I am recovering enough to think about them and give them some kind of life, if only in my heart.
But even if abortion is so atrocious that we won't discuss it, it isn't too much for God's mercy. Kim, I am glad you found healing in the Eucharist. Thanks again for unloading.
Kim you are in good company here. I maybe prochoice but that doesn't mean the story rings any less true (yours or the one above). It was my S. batists grandmother that paied for my abortions as well. Then it was them later that I heard damn me because I had done it. Confused and hurt I became more and more insane. Jesus was not my answer, I never found peace once my eyes had been opened (for me) to many of the things that I disagree with being done in his name. However G*d still found me fit enough to give me a moment of sanity which lead me out of that life into the one I have now. While I believe abortion should stay legel because I simply do not believe in the goverment getting between a patient and doctor... AND I also think that it is not up to me to figure out what is right and wrong for another.... I think that we neee to figure out a better way of dealing with unplanned preg. expecailly in youth but also in ALL people. So that abortion is not seen as a good choice or a "right" one.
Kim, I am glad that you did not die. YOUR LIFE IS PRECIOUS as are the lives of your children in heaven. Your testimony is important...
Every once in a while, I get to thinking - why should I keep on going out in public and speak? Why should I hold up a sign that says, "I regret my abortion"?
Why? Then, I realize that it is because of the Kims, the Achromics, the Christinas, the Annies, the women of the world - that if they have not had an abortion that they will see, hear another side of abortion...the REAL side. The ONLY side that is ugly, horrible and never leaves you, but that the pro abortion people will never talk about.
You are so correct, Kim, in writing that you do not believe that a woman ever gets over an abortion. That is a fact. We learn to deal with it a bit better - some by turning to God, some by turning to friends...whatever ... and some of us learn to deal with it real poorly - drugs, alcohol, promiscuity...etc.
I do not believe that a doctor and patient should have their relationship interferred with, either, Achromic, but what doctor tells their patient to drink poison because the patient wants to? Abortion is a bitter pill to swallow...it is death to the child.
When I hear parents/people commenting, "You never get over the death of a child" I want to scream..."THAT'S RIGHT - NO MATTER WHAT AGE THE CHILD WAS WHEN IT DIED!!!!"
No one, it seems ever wants to hear that a baby, one day, six weeks, three months...that if that baby dies, the mother and father suffer, too.
My rambling is over for now...
blessings and welcome, Kim
For years after my abortion, there was nothing I wanted more than to DIE. I felt that since I had wasted the totally innocent and promising life of my unborn child, I had NO further value to God, society, or even ME. But God's healing mercy and the loving help of others have brought me to a position where I can assist in saving the lives of other precious innocents and their mothers from abortion. And I do this not only for God, the babies, and their mothers, I do it for MY little beloved, too!
Hugs, for you too, Holly.
Kim & Holly,
My spiritual director validates my feelings that I will never be free of the pain of losing my child. At the same time, he encourages me to sit in the silence and welcome God's love - a love so great, as Romans tells us, nothing can separate us from it - not even an abortion.
On my good days, I welcome God's embrace. On my bad days, I long for it now rather than running from it - well, most of the time. I believe God will never force love on me. For a sexual abuse survivor, that's powerful stuff. Since I believe God's intentions are honorable, I welcome God's love and am willing to make the advances. God's embrace is always appropriate - peaceful, compassionate, kind.
Many hugs to both of you.
Thanks everybody. It really helped me to read all of your comments.
Holly - I speak out in public and work on Project Rachel retreats for my Matthew Dean...it is HIS story that needs to be told - not necessarily mine, so I hear what you are writing! Blessings -
Megan, I'm very interested in what you wrote about how important it is as a sexual abuse survivor to see and feel that God will not force His love on us. I'd never thought of it that way. I hope you can write more about that at some point.
hummm Megen I echo Em's interst in what you said. I never looked at it that way... but I suppose ALOT of what I find offensive about the Christain's in genreal IS the pushing of G*d's love upon ppl. As a rape surviver.... and abuse suriviver it is repungent... tho' I had never put my finger on it in that particular way until you said it.
Lee Ann..... I could site several reason a doctor might tell you to take meds that in other settings may seem dangerous. The fact is that you see the fetus as a patient with rights and I do not unless the person carrying it says it is. I understand you do not like that idea.... but as I have stated it seems to me that you want to give the fetus rights that are not allowed to children or adults with sever disablities.
A. - "but as I have stated it seems to me that you want to give the fetus rights that are not allowed to children or adults with sever disablities"
Please, tell me, what rights are not permitted to children or adults with severe disabilities?
I know that in this country a person with any disability is permitted to live ... some exceptions, of course, Terri Schiavo come to mind... but in reality - please what rights do I wish for an unborn child that a born United States citizen does not have?
I understand, A., where you are coming from when you write about God being pushed at you by Christians. When we feel unworthy of love, we run from it - we do things that are counter to receiving it - and when you hear a person telling you about the love of Christ, it is repugnant. I have been there - and I totally agree with you.
Could you be viewing the pushing of God's love as pushing because you do not feel worthy to receive it? And, I do not write that to say that 'you' are unworthy - far from it - we are all unworthy.
blessings -
But Lee Ann, it is excatly cases like Terri that I AM talking about. You exclude the cases that are being used. Do you think Terri was rare? Ok here are two real life exsamples that I know of. When my friend had a baby that had a sever heart defect she was told either he could have an operation OR she could take him home and watch him die with in a day or less. It was her choice, he was already born, he had no say in it nor did the doctor consider the child the patient until my friend said they wanted to try and save him. Do you see what I mean? Is it too fine a line? Next real case that I know of. A friend of mind had a baby that when about 2 had a terrible accident and ended up in a "Terri" like condition, they were a black family and in our neighborhood that met you were even poorer then poor. After all the surgeries to keep the little boy alive to that point... they could not afford anymore medical care. Tho' the little boy's father despratly wanted to keep him on the feeding tubes (he breathed fine without help) there was no money despite the 3 jobes he worked. The medical communty and the state of Mo. decided that it was OK to take the feeding tube out DESPITE the father's wishes. Of course he died. Once again he had no voice in the matter. If I, who has not lead a great life, who knows only a hand full of people when compared to the pop. of the world, can know of TWO cases personally in which the parents decided on the life and death of a child ALREADY born, one which the descions was for life and STILL was ignored.... it cannot be so uncommen a thing. THAT is what I mean Lee Ann...... you want a to grant a right to life that is not granted to children and people with sever disablities.
"THAT is what I mean Lee Ann...... you want a to grant a right to life that is not granted to children and people with sever disablities."
Excuse me Achromic - the children you write of DID have the right to life - they lived...albeit short lives, but they were born. They had what many millions of children did not have the right to do - be born after nine months of gestation.
A - I was and am totally opposed to the horrific death that Terri Schiavo had. You know that...I was vocal here on the list.
I am not able to save every child that has a disability - I am not able to wave a wand and fix the medical situation for those who do not have the means to pay for it. Heck - I do not have the means for my husband to quit working - my medical costs will be too high as I am a cancer survivor, but the insurance people do not see me as a survivor but a continued money drainer. My poor husband is 66 and cannot retire.
Achromic - I do not understand where you get the idea that because I am pro-life that I wish that the children/people with disabilities die. That is just so strange a connection.
I know that there is a time that each and every one of us will die. It is not up to us as to how we die - suicide exempted here - but the fact is that we will die at an appointed time.
The children that you write of - they died - yes. The babies that are in the womb and whose mothers decide to abort them - is that not tragic - just as tragic as those babies who you know of who died?
You seem to be blurring the line between a wilful killing of a baby within its mother's womb and the fact that some babies are sick and cannot be healed due to economic reasons, or due to medical impracticallities.
What about a child born in rural China that does not have access to good medical care? Or Afghanistan? Do you think they should all be aborted because their parents are poor and cannot affort medical care?
Would your friends have wished that they had aborted their child instead of letting the child be born? Would that have solved their pain?
The right to life if fundamental, A. I do not sanction government killing in any way. That includes the Terri Schiavo case.
"It was her choice, he was already born, he had no say in it nor did the doctor consider the child the patient until my friend said they wanted to try and save him."
A - this points directly to my argument against abortion - does the abortionist think of the baby as his patient?
Blessings - Lee Anne
also A - recalling the last quote that quoted from you...you state that the baby had no choice - the doctor did not think of him as his patient...why are you outraged at that? That is done millions of times a year - only it is done a tad bit earlier and called "choice".
blessings -
The STATE willfully killed one and the mother had the right to willfully allow her child no medical care which would have lead to death..... which is the same thing. You can't fix one without fixing the other is my point. I am NOT outraged at it Lee Ann. I think that in both cases the right thing was done. I suppose you could take what I wrote to be a negitive... but the negitive is that you prolife people are consentrating on the unborn when the born are in many cases in just as much danger. I don't understand...... what makes the unborn MORE important to you. Why you pour money to save them but not the people who need the cash and medical system that is failing them to keep born people alive. I don't get that. And a lot of pro choice people are not getting it .... soo I thought you would know. But.... as usual my asking is a bit... er abrupt and ... ummm ok yea.... ok I see I am doing this all wrong again. Srry Lee Ann.... I didn't mean to attack you. I donno why I keep doing that. I keep saying I am gonna stop and then I do it again. Darnit. Ok.... it is this easy I don't understand why unborn fetuses are worth your time and money but people and laws for the unborn or several disabled are not up to the same standards.... why is one seen as more of an emerency by you and the other prolifers?
Attack unnoticed...we are sisters, Achromic - it is okay to yell once in a while!
Let me address this..."Ok.... it is this easy I don't understand why unborn fetuses are worth your time and money but people and laws for the unborn or several disabled are not up to the same standards.... why is one seen as more of an emerency by you and the other prolifers?"
I am a great avocate for ALL people, espcially the disabled...I was a special education teacher. I now teach my children at home. I have taken children in - children placed in foster care - I have sat with their parents and helped to reunify families, I have adopted some of the children, I have taken care of a severely disabled little girl - at one year of age she was unable to sit up by herself. She died two years later... I have done what I could do in my own pocket of the world, Achromic.
I am not called - it is not my gift, to be involved in politics - I am too hot headed. I dislike politics and its deceit. I would love to be able to change laws, but alas... I am not political with the pro-life movement, A. I do stand up during the March for Life, but I do not go to the politicians offices - that is not my calling. I will stand up and speak out against abortion at Silent No More Awareness Rallies - it is very difficult to do - but it is necessary. That is not political - it is simply my story...and indeed, your story.
When I say that I am pro-life, I am pro ALL life, no matter what form of life that is, Achromic. You may think otherwise of other pro-lifers and think that I do not do enough, but I try, with my limited gifts to help those who need my help.
Blessings - from me who wishes you would quit generalizing...it is not productive!
Achromic - perhaps you could answer me this...why, when I speak about my story, do the pro-choice people stand and scream obscenities at me and the other speakers? I am not saying that you do this, but I have had this happen to me...
If I understood that Lee Ann, then I could probably start working on the middle east issues. I know why my husband acts like that... because he is afraid of you. He is afraid not just of your stance on prolife but what he persceive all of the things that you must believe as well if you are prolifer. In other words he sees you fitting into a prolife profile. He is prejudice.... but he feels it is justified because the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and such "started it" by attacking his freedoms. In other words he never sees or hears you.... he only hears what he expects to. As you can imagine his view of politic's is very black and white and you are either on his side or your are the enemey. Which, as he is not held up by any book of morality I can sort of get. I personally am a bit embarssed when people tell their stories in a public forum (blogs and writting not included) but that is only because I view that stuff to be intensly private (not the telling of perhaps the reactions of). I think it is fair for you to call me out about that stuff..... it is true I would never call anyone names while they were speaking or do any no. of countless acts of crulity you and others have shared but the people who are doing it DO think they are a part of us, but to me they are more like the insane relatives that drank to much that you are hopeing passes out before they say anymore.
Hey, Achro, let me tackle that one Lee Anne tackled, about "I don't understand why unborn fetuses are worth your time and money but people and laws for the unborn or several disabled are not up to the same standards.... why is one seen as more of an emerency by you and the other prolifers?"
If I'm correct in that it wasn't just addressed at Lee Anne, but kind of all of us prolife folks, then I think maybe you hadn't yet joined us here when the nightmare of Terri Schiavo's slow death at the hands of her husband took place. I don't recall, maybe you were but hadn't read all we have written, but both Em and I were very vocal about our horror and upset over what her husband claimed and did.
AfterAbortion was a member of Blogs for Terri, and we had all members listed on the sidebar. I still have a list of links under EUTHANASIA on my personal blog, http://anniebanno.blogspot.com/2...s-by-
state.html
We posted how Terri was going to (and then did) starve to death: http://
www.thrownback.blogspot.c...421407332095963
Here's at least 21 posts we did on that whole horror:
My 14 Terri Schindler-Schiavo posts:
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...bout-
terri.html Reading deeper into "The Polls" about Terri Schiavo
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...vs-
says_23.html Terri Schiavo is not in PVS, says a neurologist called in by Florida's Dept. of Children & Families Protective Services
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...hed-get-
to.html "Even in liberal Holland, she'd get to live."
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...005/03/
www.html “www.Vote.com, as of this post, DAY 4 of their poll, has 6,733 non-duplicated votes counted, still with 67% saying Yes, Bush was right to pass Terri's Law.”
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...his-
church.html “Judge Greer parts ways with his church on pastor's advice"
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...bout-
terri.html SHREDDING SOME MYTHS about Terri Schiavo
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...e-
cerebral.html Harvard junior with severe cerebral palsy writes about Terri Schiavo.
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...m-
lacrosse.html Terri Schiavo died today.
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...-
judgments.html The cast of charactersin this case and … Michael's girlfriend BEFORE current live-in girlfriend filed legal affidavit saying, "...the trial money was everything to him and...something happened to him once he received the settlement....
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...ri-
schiavo.html "Abortion Advocates Cheer Terri Schiavo Loss"
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...nd-
circuit.html “Where was the A
...
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...nd-
circuit.html “Where was the ACLU when the Florida court defined what was "its own evaluation of Terri Schiavo's best interest"? It sure believed two months ago that the Florida court could do this same. exact. thing.”
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...y-that-
pro.html Terri Schiavo did not--I repeat--did not have an eating disorder. "...and...she did not suffer a heart attack."
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...lagging-
on.html New books on Terri Schiavo
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...st-at-
doug.html Patty Heaton retorts to Howard Stern
Emily had these 7 posts:
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...-court-
has.html
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...ickly-
with.html
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...icago-
trib.html
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...mission-
to.html
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...-terri-
you.html
http://
afterabortion.blogspot.co...yesterdays.html
http://afterabortion.blogspot.co...quality-
of.html
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/do.../
1203galrpt.pdf
http://hyscience.typepad.com/
hys...ictor_gamb.html
http://www.sptimes.com/News/
0603...iavo_s_me.shtml
We see the disabled as every bit as much of an emergency, Achro, we really do.
I was here .... but it doesn't explain why you waited for Terri and why you have stopped when it was going on before and it is still going on today. People are taken off life support, children taken off feeding tubes, mothers denying simple blood transfusions or other life saving medical procedures or the con'ting of those medical procdures. Some refuse out of spritual belives others ... many others because they cannot pay the bill and the state forces them too. I just don't understand... that is all I am not trying to point figures, I just would think that children that were born and severally disable adults and children would be as important to your group.... but it has been months since Terri..... so I just don't know what to tell people when they throw that at my face about you guys.
Achro, thank you. You helped me make up my mind about something.
I met with a pro-lifer the other day who wants my help in her organization. We got into a "discussion" about graphic images. We're civilized women, or at least SHE is, so we kept it nice. Graphic images generally make me lose my civility, because they trigger a PTSD response, which includes violent outbursts. This is an illness - mental and neurological - fun stuff.
But back to my point, this pro-life woman with no personal declared abortion experience said something that really ticks me off, and reading Achro's comments this morning helped clarify whether I can work with her. She said, with a dismissive air, "A lot of post-abortive women don't like the use of graphic images," and then she actually did dismiss me - all of us - and my misgivings. I told her the end doesn't justify the means, but she doesn't hear me any more than anyone else does. (Hi, Ash, if you're reading....you know I love you, even though we will disagree here...but your disagreement with me is tolerable, because you don't dismiss me).
She also bragged about how many people would refuse to go into a clinic because there were protesters outside. She thinks this closes clinics (heck, maybe it does), but she apparently doesn't know or doesn't care if the pregnant women go to another clinic where protesters aren't such a problem, or if they come back another day. She actually didn't express any concern over where they went. It didn't seem to matter - turn them away at the door, and that's all that counts.
She said it in a way that asked for a pat on the back, as if this does anything to help pregnant women in crisis.
She and I are not on the same page; I prefer to be called anti-abortion, thanks, if being pro-life means I have to fit in there. We don't think alike; we don't believe the same things; and she is not like Patricia, who reads and comments here with grace; this one says with confidence that SHE would never have had an abortion, because SHE always knew better. I'd like to know how she knows that.
One other thing - Annie and Emily, this question is for you. I was very upset when the woman I mention told a freshly post-abortive girl who had just testified for the first time about her two abortions how she could have called "911" to stop her second abortion. It was done chemically. The young woman was sitting there in tears, talking about how she felt right after her first dose, while she waited three days before the second med to expel the (dead?) unborn child....and the pro-life woman (who claims to run a post-abortion counseling program based on RAMAH, or so she says) told her how she could have stopped the abortion in between the first and second drugs if only she had.....
I jumped in there and told her there were a million if only's in my case, and we didn't talk about those things, but I was too little, too late. The damage had been done
I could see the young girl adding her failure to stop the abortion to her burdens, and it broke my heart.
To the post-abortion counselors who are reading, what does this tell you about the skill level of the pro-life woman I mention as far as post-abortion counseling goes? I don't see any skills at all. It also seems as if I could hang up a shingle tomorrow and start selling P.A. counseling myself, no problem, but I am untrained, unqualified, unlicensed, and ignorant. Thank God, He proves that to me all the time, so I don't go around trying to do what I am not qualified to do. Most of the time.
Any thoughts, advice, similar experiences? How do we know if someone has actually been properly trained to do P.A. counseling?
Wow, I first see that Annie took out a whole section of her blog to talk about a pt that I brought up and then you Julie bring up something that is so close to my heart that I am stunned. I feel heard......... I donno how that happens around here but it does all the time. Not that any of you have "the answer" just that you guys are hearing the conversatation. Thanks.
"but to me they are more like the insane relatives that drank to much that you are hopeing passes out before they say anymore.l"
Achromic!!! How I chuckled when I read this...I reckon that we both have those insane relatives in respective "camps". Pat Robertson and other kooks come to mind!!!
I am so sorry that your husband feels threatened by me. There is no way, not one iota of a way that I would ever do anything intentionally to harm him or you. How can being open and for life be threatening to him?
You know, Achromic - what I find kind of interesting (just a side bar here) is that most of us on this list use our real names and expose ourselves. We are not afraid...and yet, you hide behind a moniker. I am not saying that you 'should' not, but I am saying that it is just kind of interesting.
I am trying to understand...believe me, I am. But I don't get it.
Julie - a lot of pro-life women who have not had - or perhaps have had, but will not reveal - abortions, are extremely judgmental and in my not so humble opinion should NOT be anywhere near post abortive women. Their agenda is meanness and they will answer for that.
Christ has not condemned and calls us to repent and be forgiven, for we condemn ourselves. Those pro-lifers who wear they Christianity on their sleeve - who have to tell you that they are Christians - make me irritated. That is not to write that I have not written that I am a Christian and as such... BUT, I will never say 'because I am a Christian, you cannot abort your baby'.
I will say that one should not abort their baby because it kills the baby and injures the woman.
And - please, A. - what do you do as a pro-choice woman, to help women who have had abortions? Since there are no children to worry about - what is there to do?
blessings - and sorry for all the questions! ( :
You know, Lee Anne, she does not strike me as a mean person, and that is what puzzles me the most. I wondered if she was wearing an agenda instead of using her head when dealing with the young woman who had aborted.
Achro, we have many more similarities than differences on this issue. I believe none of us can separate the unborn child from his mother. What helps one, helps the other. What hurts one, hurts the other. We should never have to choose between them.
There will be cases where it seems God, or nature if you prefer, has made the choice for us. The fetus can't survive an ectopic pregnancy, for example, at least not now. If we disapproved of terminating embryonic humans, then maybe we would have used some of our resources to learn how to fix those.
I know the unborn child is completely innocent. That makes abortion an atrocity; it doesn't make the unborn child more important in God's eyes than his mother, or we ain't Christian.
Julie,
Your comment has brought back a memory of my own insensitivity.
I was raised to be pro-life -- my mother celebrated all 7 of us. I hate to admit I was on the side of that woman who would never have an abortion because she "knew better".
There were two or three times my reaction at finding out about someone's abortion brought out the Holier than thow judgementalism.
Until I was 27 and laid low. Now that saying "But there for the Grace of God go I" takes on a whole new meaning -- close to home.
One never really knows what they will do until that crisis happens. I personally was not in my right mind -- something I never understood until I lost all my straight thinking.
Mine was not a deliberate choice but an act of despair. However, I am still learning to expand my mercy and understanding in that even those who made a deliberate choice eventually realize that abortion was not the liberating life saving woman freeing latest and greatest advancement in gynocological treatments for women.
The bottom line seems to me, for the most part, that no matter what your mind set at the time of abortion, what happens on that table is the same for ALL women. It is just that the truth of that reality works its way through the womans mind at different rates of process -- depending on what her formation was -- pro-life or pro-choice.
I have been the woman you have talked about and since my post-abortion healing I have run into such women who insist on rubbing my nose in my mistake -- almost as if I should run around in ashes and sack cloth never to be redeemed or happy again.
I guess what goes around comes around -- at least for me.
Oh, gosh, I'm not even supposed to be looking at the blog during work hours now, ...but...
Achro: re: "it doesn't explain why you waited for Terri and why you have stopped when it was going on before and it is still going on today. ...I just don't know what to tell people when they throw that at my face about you guys."
Achro, honey, sweetie, neither I nor Em nor any of us "waited for Terri" to do something, to be vocal. The news media didn't want us to KNOW about it! It's the same as how YOU didn't "wait" to learn about other opinions about stuff you knew nothing about until you read about it here because the news media doesn't want you or anyone to know! Remember your amazement at learning some of this stuff, that the news hadn't done a thing about it? How do you think we felt when we learned about Terri!? The point is: ONCE we knew about Terri, and that her plight was even humanly possible, we got outraged. Had we known such inhumanity existed before, we would have tried to make a difference before.
And WE HAVEN'T stopped! As I said in the blog post about it and the comments, Achro! The blogroll list is enormous, and it makes the blog take a very long time to load, but I think it was BlogsFor Terri that stopped the automatic blogroll code, to be honest, I'm not sure. I do still link to it on Purposeful Dreamer.
Another point is: both Em and I have dayjobs, where we work to feed our families, house them, send them to school, etc. (Em has at least one kid in college, I'm having to send mine off in 2 years!) We don't take any money from our readers nor do we put up ads that pay us for clicktrhoughs (both of which some bloggers do).
I'd love nothing more than to have no money needs, to be able to do this full -time, and I know Em would too. But unless someone's willing to pay us to cover our living expenses, how can we fight for--and cover the fighting for--justice on this blog to ALL the women suffering from PAS, the disabled, the handicapped, the aging, the death row inmates, and the unborn??
We do this in our SPARE time. We do it because we want to. There are so many blogs specializing in the above needs areas, that's why we link to them, rather than duplicate them.
This blog is not about activism--for a reason--but you know I always advocate and encourage our readers, without pushing anyone beyond what they're able to do at this moment and place in their lives.
As for what do you say to folks who throw this in your face, you say, "There are insensitive, half-assed-pro-life people and then there are sensitive 1,000,000% prolife people who are against ALL inhumanity to and ALL killing of the disabled, the handicapped, the aging, the death row inmates, AS WELL AS THE UNBORN, so step off!" Seriously, tell them that you've learned that the media doesn't tell you the whole truth about prolife people and that they ought to do their OWN homework because there are prolifers out there with compassion and tolerance to discuss our differences and cannot be painted with the negative broad brushes the media likes to use.
They've GOT to be shown, as you were shown, that we do not all "fit the sterotype" they hear so much about, in fact, I think MOST of us DON'T.
Julie, I too have gotten into arguments, sometimes heated, with those prolifers who rabidly defend the use of gore and disgusting photos and phrases as a means to scare women into not having abortions. It didn't work for me, but drove me more quickly into the "helpful" arms of the abortion clinic people, 27 years ago.
Those prolifers will. never. see. it. from. our. perspective. EVER. The first time I went to the sidewalks to offer help, and I looked at the signs, REALLY, for the first time, ever in my life, I almost threw up. My son was there, he told me to look away. I didn't think I could stand.
The "protesters" and the signs' presence may have shut down a few clinics, but how many more women did they drive MORE QUICKLY INTO the clinic than stop? Even my own friends I mention, the ones who saved 129 babies from abortion, that was only 11% of those who came to the clinic last year.
Could they help save 15% or even 20% without the signs? Who knows? We'll never know unless they try it for a year to test the theory.
As for that prolife woman's guilt trip to that poor young girl, I don't believe she's correct that one can stop the chemical abortion (presume you mean RU 486) once it's started.
The first drug is "Mifepristone... marketed as Mifeprex. Mifepristone…acts at the level of the lining of the uterus to interfere with normal blood supply to the implanted infant/placenta and kill the baby. Misoprostol (Cytotec) then acts to stimulate uterine contractions to cause the dead baby and placenta to be expelled from the mother's body via the vagina." "Dr. W. David Hager, a member of the FDA Advisory Committee For Reproductive Health Drugs.
The woman probably got her "information" from facts such as this: "When taken alone, RU-486 causes a complete abortion only about 60% of the time. [I. Spitz et al., "Early pregnancy termination with mifepristone and misoprostol in the United States," New England Journal of Medicine 1998, 338:1241-47. AND L. Birgerson and V. Odlind, "Early pregnancy termination with anti-progestins: a comparative clinical study of RU-486 given in two dose regimens and Epostane," Fertil. Steril. 48:565-70 (1987).]
“A second drug, a prostaglandin, is given 48 hours later to increase its effectiveness. The prostaglandin causes uterine contractions to help expel the embryo. Misoprostol (brand name Cytotec) is the prostaglandin used with RU-486 in the U.S.”
The problem is, though, that even if she just took the first drug, so much damage has already been done to her baby, it's more likely than not that she couldn't have saved her child by calling 911.
From the published book RU 486: Misconceptions, Myths and Morals, by pro-abortion researcher Janice Raymond, et. al., A
...Associate Director, Institute on Women & Technology, Cambridge MA:
“The only thing private about RU 486 is that the final stage of the abortion; the expulsion of the embryo, often happens at home--or someplace else. To call this an at-home abortion is deceptive, to say the least, since most of the [multiple-day] treatment transpires at the clinic or hospital and is extremely medicalized. What actually happens at home can be an excruciatingly long wait for the embryo to be expelled from the uterus, accompanied by pain, bleeding, vomiting, nausea, and other complications [such as allergic shock] that are drawn out over a substantially lengthy period of time [up to 30-69 days; I. Spitz et al., "Early pregnancy termination with mifepristone and misoprostol in the United States," New England Journal of Medicine 1998, 338:1241-47]...We are talking about a non-private, extensively medicalized, and complicated procedure.’ (Raymond, et al, pp.27-29)
"As abortifacient procedures go, RU 486 is not at all easy to use. In fact, it is more complex to use than the technique of vacuum extraction. True, no anesthetic is required. But a woman who wants to end her pregnancy has to 'live' with her abortion for at least a week using this technique. It's an appalling psychological ordeal." (Raymond, et al, pp.50-51)
Even if it is possible and she could have called 911, that is insane, or ignorant or possibly evil to tell a regretting, grieving woman that. Utterly insane. Holier-than-thou, superiority complex sounds like it could have been in HIGH gear with that Ramah woman. I am appalled that she would be so insensitive. SHE added torment to existing torment and has totally missed the point of Jesus Christ's mission here on earth.
I have said it before and I'll say it again: if anyone finds such insensitive, self-righteous people in any of the life-affirming CPCs such as Ramah, then RUN DON'T WALK TO THE NEXT ONE ON THE LIST IN YOUR AREA. Sadly, there are misguided people in some of the CPCs, but there are enough CPCs that you CAN find one without such sanctimonious, destructive (intentional or not) behaviors and attitudes.
Can I get an AMEN to the last paragraph of Annie's!!! Sadly, there are times when there are misguided people - I pray to God that whatever harm has been done will be undone...
blessings -
hummm the name thing came from hiding from my ex which whom I have shared with you the volience of which he gave me. I still fear him finding me to this day. It has nothing to do with you, tho' my husband has pleaded with me to not expose my real self to any of you. However I have written to Emily and I think Annie tho' I am not sure about Annie... useing my real name and my work add. I hope that none of you can ever understand the fear that living with a truely abusive man can give you for the rest of your life. It never goes away.
The name actually means without color... and I as I say to people who ask it is because I use to be black and blue but now I am colorless and true.
As to what I do to help Lee Ann, I use to do a lot more before I became sick.... now my days are pretty much in a chair wishing that I could breath without it hurting so much. I am happy if I can walk for 30 mins and that whole time I hurt. I hurt enough that they give me the some of the largest amounts of oxycodine that they can.... and it still isn't enough. I am broken inside and tho' they try and tell me that they can make me better I don't really believe that anymore. And yes Lee Ann, if I could kill myself without my spouse losing all the benfits then I sure would have by now... but I can't risk that for his sake. Besides me and my G*d got a deal so I try and abide by that.
What I have done is take homeless people into my home and feed them and give them a place to sleep while I tried one at a time to find them a place to live and get them to where ever they needed to be so they were not on the street. Sometimes they would steal from me..... try and kill themselves, talk to walls and the sallights in their heads, try and kill my cat, all that kind of stuff...... but I don't stop once someone is mine, I don't let people fall thru the cracks of the system. So like you Lee Ann I do what I am called to.... but I hated it all the more when it was kids out on the streets...... I really really hated that.
Achro, I am glad you and God have your deal. He doesn't want you to kill yourself, as much as he doesn't want you to suffer so much as you do. I pray for the hurt to stop, the relief from your pain. You are like gold that has been tested in fire, being purified in fire, and as preciously valuable to him just the way you are, and to us and our readers...I'm praying for you, that your ex never finds you or harms you again, and for you and your husband who is your gift from God for withstanding all the prior abuse and not killing yourself or becoming totally closed up and bitter and jaded because of it.
Lee Anne, I knew why Achro used the moniker and I confirm all that she said. Another friend of ours who does likewise is The Raving Atheist. There are others too, I just can't think of them right now. She isn't being duplicitous or cowering behind a false name. It is actually a true name, for her. And she has and never will have anything to fear from Em or me, who know her real name (if I could even find that email of long ago, Achro! 
)
I've learned that when someone has as open and loving a mind as Achro does, it isn't "hiding behind a moniker to toss off pointed insults." It's good, common sense for which there is a good common sense reason.
On the flip side, MY friends are fearful for ME because I DON'T use a moniker!! I tell them not to worry. I've been at this for 3 years now (online stuff), and though I've had several computerized attacks on my PC and my email addies, it is due to my God and perhaps also my extreme surveillance and protective measures, that those never did a lick of harm! Though sometimes, it clearly wasn't anything I did to prevent any damage.
And I believe there never will be any harm resulting. God, I believe, wants me to keep this up, even if it has to be part-time, so He isn't going to let some stupid, puerile hacker stop me.
Oh, no. God is no dummy! Watch, this is probably being read as a "challenge" to those who think themselves my "enemies" to now devise an online attack to disable my PC or my email! To any such folks prone to such evil: What you don't know about my surveillance and protection, however, will hurt you!
I'll let you know, folks, if anyone tries to virus-attack, spoof, phish me or otherwise. It's almost like clockwork by now!
Amen, Annie, Amen!
I tried to write a response last night, but I was steaming. My husband walked in to my office, took one look at my face, and said whatever I was writing, I'd better scrap it until I cooled down.
So I took the whole night, and I'm still not too cool, but at least I'm more controlled, I think.
Lee Anne, I contacted one of this young woman's family members to encourage them to suggest a Rachel's Vineyard retreat to her. I am with you in hoping the damage can be undone. She has the rest of her life to figure out what she should have done, could have, would have, etc.... No one needed to give her 20/20 hindsight - NO ONE.
Annie, I intend to correct the pro-life woman's information with what you provided - I am very grateful to you.
Susan, your story really touched me deeply, and made me look at myself, too. Some well-intentioned people just don't stop to think things through, and that includes me.
I don't know if I've ever said it (haven't talked about my abortion much, not sober anyway), or wrote it down, but I know over the last two decades that I have often thought a.) no woman has more than one abortion and b.) I would NEVER have a second abortion. I thought that until I miscarried my second on birth control pills. I knew they were abortifacients - I ignored that piece of information until I saw the evidence.
I think, or I hope, that I stopped thinking of myself as a one-time-only killer the day I stood over that tiny body and apologized, because I had sworn never to kill another child, but had done so anyway. Reality bites.
I was also guilty at the meeting I described of thinking I was the only post-abortive woman in the room - there's a weird sort of "pride" in that, not a nice thing.
Achro, when my husband first outed me on the internet, we had my pic, full name, address, phone number - everything but my mom's maiden name, I guess. I was the one who wanted to limit the info. I didn't want to be anonymous - but I didn't want to provide a map to my house, either.
I wasn't hesitant because of you or other pro-choice people. It's the same stereotype of violent pro-lifers that worries your husband. They would scream at me that I am a murderer. Pro-aborts have said things like "get a job," and that was actually funny. Or, "don't like abortion, don't have one," which is useless. I could be really snide here, and say pro-aborts don't have to kill us grown-ups, because they already have an outlet against the unborn for their violent behavior (you are not a pro-abort to me, Achro - I consider you pro-choice, if that's okay with you).
So Achro, if the rabidly crazy pro-lifers decide to kill all of the baby-killers, can I hide with you? Because you see, sorry or not, they don't like me much, either - a baby-killer is a baby-killer, and that's what I am, and some don't care if if made me unhappy - those are my just desserts.
Some of the prolifers tolerate me (and other P.A. women) because they think it might help their cause. But I don't feel the love. Not at all. And so many of them are supposed to be Christians. The Lord ate with tax collectors and prostitutes in His day - they were the big sinners. In our times, I believe He would sit at table with us.
There are exceptions among the prolifers, and I find that they are the very best kind of people all the way around. I keep my eyes open, and I find a bunch of them here.
Achro - I echo Annie's post - God does not want you to kill yourself. It does not matter if your husband continued to get benefits after your death... Your life is precious and you have much to give, even through or perhaps because of your pain and suffering.
Please, please, do be judicious and discerning when taking people into your home - your personal safety comes to mind - the material things - they can be replaced.
blessings -
See Lee Ann? IF I was discerning then I would not be keeping my end of the deal........ but it is one place where my husband has forced some of that "sense" stuff. I hope soon to have another studio to bring them to ... evenutully. Then I can just wait... G*d will put in my path those that I can help........ there are so so so many out here. I can't waited. The social structure for the poor in SF and the bay area is far diffrent then the ones I have worked with in the past...... lol see you are getting me excited again. I think these people have been discerned right outside and into homlessness. The shelters are not safe for them because their mental illness makes them victeims or their age will send them back home (sometimes home is pretty nasty) they will not remember to take their meds or go to appt. Someone ...... someone has to be out there .... it has been far to long since it was me. I keep thinking that ..... that I let G*d down because I choose to go to work and put my carrer in front for awhile....... and now I am sick and I can't do what I was called to do... I waited to long. How many people sliped thru while I had my nice job? I donno.... blush.... I donna share all this stuff with other people..... er
Achro, the more I learn about you, the cooler you are. You take in and help the mentally ill? Those who are homeless?
God loves you, and so do I. I have a mentally ill older brother who has been missing for decades. He's schizophrenic. My parents kicked him out years ago (he made the example so I knew they weren't kidding around with me when I got pregnant - kicking kids out was a habit of theirs).
I don't even know if he is alive. If I could find him, I don't even know what I would do with or for him. We haven't seen each other since we were children. In my dreams, I win the sweepstakes, find him and have him committed to a warm, safe place where he can take his meds, watch TV, eat hot food....
Thank Juilie, I am so srry for your loss. Yes mentally ill people are a "specailty" of mine tho I have no medical degree or anything like that. They like me....... I donno why. BUT they seem to and they seem to trust me too. There is nothing like trying to work the system when you are not the family and it is hard VERY hard to get families to not hang up on you when you call about their child and try and get them to care one more time. It is heartbreaking when some of them tell the story of "how it all happened" if they ever do. I can tell Juilie that just because your brother is mentally ill and was thrown out doesn't mean that he hit the streets or is dead (homeless people live less long then most other people in the USA), he could have very well found one of the many many systems that are out there for people in his condition, ones that help him take his medication and adjust it on a regular basis, once he has decided to take it he COULD be leading an ok life. It wouldn't be a normal life....... I don't ever want to say that he would not have wild stories or fantistic adventures but they would/could be of the more calmer sort that allowed him to hold a job have a GF even get married and buy a house tho' that last is not as commen. Schophrina is a horrible desise.... it strikes in the teen all the way up to late 20's early 30's..... there is still far to little known or done about it. The care in the USA of our most venreble is abmissel for such a rich country. But it doesn't nessacarly mean being placed in a facilty with soft rooms any more.... tho' in my opinion more of those falcilties need to be open with long term care avilable.
Julie, I feverently hope that your brother ran into someone that saw who he was inside and gave him the help he needed. There are so many more options out there for him....... if someone helps him advocates for him to get in. In my heart of hearts I hope that J.'s law carrer will allow me to start doing this again... but we will have to wait and see.
Thank you for the comfort, Achro. I'll keep your desires in this area in my prayers.
And, of course mentally ill people like you! I do! 
Achro - basically, you deal with mentally ill people - not necessarily poor people. Not one in the same - even though those on the street who are mentally ill do not have a source of income readily available to them.
When I write about choices, I write about those choices - personal responsibility choices of people who are capable of making decisions - bad or good. But, obviously the mentally ill do not fit into that category.
I know about the bay area and its issues with the homeless..remember, I lived there, albeit not for some time now -
Blessings and thank goodness your husband has discernment, for you need that with a big heart! (chuckling)
I know that Lee Ann I am not talking about mentally ill people makeing a choice either ALTHOUGH I think that many are capable once they are on the right meds. Some are not no matter what the meds are we just don't have the science to help them yet.
Yeah - A. - I was leaving out the medication part - yes, they can be helped with meds. - at least a good majority of them but the sadness with mental illness is that quite often they do not want to take their meds - for whatever reason. AND, it is not ours to judge!
blessings and praying that your pain is manageable today. and tomorrow. and the next day.
It is TO ours to judge..... darnit people say that but it isn't true. It is just an excuse to let them live in flith and not pay for the medical covrage and care that they desever. I know you donna mean it like that but ... Listen these people DON'T want to to take their meds when they are NOT ON their meds. You know what ALL this freedom loving CRAP that you guys don't want any of when it about normal people suddenly when it is the mentally ill you get all into choice and not infringing on their rights. WHY? because it would COST YOU right in the pocketbook. You ask what kids I take care of? well hun I take care of them after they are all grown up and no one cares anymore...... they are all here right underneath your feet mentally, mentally handicaped, physcally disabled and addicted. All here.
No, I am afraid you misunderstood what I wrote...it is NOT up to us to judge someone for not taking their medication. We are not to judge others however that does not alleviate us from our social duty.
It is our social duty to take care of the less fortunate. The Catholic Church has a lot to say about social responsibility, Achromic! (bet you did not know that you were acting very catholic when helping others! (
blessings -
Actually I do know that ..... it was some very cathoic people that have taught me all I know about charity just like it was some very jewish people that taught me the most about how to listen to G*d. I always say I pick out the best of what I like out of each religion to find my own spritualty and if I MUST one day answer to a diffrent G*d for what have done so be it. I just can't stand to watch people be cold and hungry when I am not. Everyone laughed at this one guy because he won all these millions of dollor in the lotto and then had spent it all and had to go on to welfare within 5yrs..... he had spent it flying planes over small villages in africa and dropping them food and medciene. But I thought that he deserved a few more million.
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