Hmm...
I think that sexist or not, these ads (and comic book) whilst being a bit of fun, would not persuade me one iota to buy your products. Which is kind of the point of an ad, no?
I guess what I'm saying is that they don't do anything for me that a plain old ad wouldn't do.
You're talking about London Hampton and Ada Deadlock being drawn in a provocative way. If thats all you're looking at then i don't really think you've crossed the line. But what made me laugh most as i read the comic was the bit where Ada Deadlock is introduced and the female minion has the thought bubble 'Wow. She really knows how to accessorize'. It's funny, but kind of sexist!
Eric,
I'm 40, have a pre-teen daughter and two sons, read enough graphic novels to be current, and I read the longer comic a few weeks ago.
Yes, it was edgier than the ones in the industry magazines, but that much. That genre is defined by stereotypes, and it fitted well enough.
I guess I'd trust you to be careful where you step with the issue of women in this business. Did you ask the opinion of your female colleagues?
You might also have seen the boiling pot of discussions of a similar issue around the upcoming "Beautiful Code" book at http://burningbird.net/diversity...y-dont-program/
~Matt
p.s. I enjoy your articles, bought the
book etc. Good stuff!
Our industry isn't exactly gender-balanced. Yet I know quite a few women who do very well in this industry.
I think it's about time the crybabies go away. The ads and the comic strip were fun in a geeky way. Complaining about the portrayal of two of the characters isn't going to do anything for the gender balance. And I genuinely wonder if the gender balance matters at all.
I know my wife was absolutely not impressed when she saw me reading it. My protestations of "It's about work" and "I'm sure the rest of it is completely tame" fell on deaf ears.
So I know I'd appreciate it being kept to a dull roar in the future.
Another question you might want to ask is "are people even seeing the ad?" I've been using FF with AdBlock for so long now that I thought there was something wrong with either the link or my browser when the flash piece didn't show up.
As for the ad itself, I think it's no more sexist than those Microsoft Visual Studio comic ads a while back where a young male developer was stuck late at work and VS saved the day so he could go on a date. Maybe you could have your man in the mask turn out to be a female, just like Metriod
I have a daughter too, she is slowly getting more into programming. But guess what, her programs are very girly [1]. Is she contributing to the stereotype? Probably, but that is who she is, and I'm exceedingly happy with who she is.
Comics are a simple visual medium (duh) so they have to convey character in body types. Superman could be short (we all know short people are better people), but that wouldn't convey strength and power visually. The bad guys tend to have beady eyes. The 'heroes' tend to be idealized people. And as any book on congenitive science will tell us, that is tall, red lipped, symmetrical, and certain proportions. Comics hit all those for the heroes, and exaggerate them because they are comics. Some people still need to get over that fact, but that is their business.
In any case, your comics don't cross the line. In fact the Ada character is a nice tip of the hat to Lady Ada, the very first programmer. The comic is effective at getting people to read the banner, I think that is all you can ask.
[1] kutegurlblog.blogspot.com/
I don't see anything wrong with the female character - no cleavage bursting out of leather tops, or anything stereotypical like that. However, the robot type guy looks like a dork.
Out of interest, have you any idea what proportion of your target market use plugins like Adblock Plus? I had to disable it just to see the banner. Normally, it would have passed me by...
For what it's worth, I'd say yes.
Nothing extreme, but it gave the piece a different bias.
I miss Kathy Sierra's Creating Passionate Users, especially since it applies here. The people who have passion for your product, positive or negative, love or hate, are going to talk about it and are going to keep it in mind. The safe zone isn't actually that safe, because it means no one does anything about your product.
When not everyone approves, you're doing something right.
Are you kidding me??
I've read the comic book before, and not once did it even remotely cross my mind that somebody could find it offensive.
Have we really come to the point where you have to apologize for acknowledging that womem are beautiful?
I'm surprised you're beating yourself up over it, this is political correctness gone too far.
Although I do have to say that the ad campaign seems unprofessional (which can of course also be a good thing, in that it's remarkable and personal) and not very effective (what do evil minions have in common with bugtracking?)
Pfft, talk about overreaction. Tame compared to current comic books? So how about Power Girl and Black Canary? Dear Ada would be considered too well-behaved even in the 60's...
Graphically, I think it fits fine with current comic stereotypes. You are making a satire, after all.
You don't hear guys whining that the pecs and the cut abdominals on the Evil Mastermind are objectifying men to an unreasonable standard, are you?
I think you are poking fun of everyone equally well....
I'd read the full-length comic when you originally posted it. I couldn't remember anything that might even be vaguely offensive.
So I went back and looked through it again. Nope. Still nothing there.
So I checked with a woman here in my office who tends to be pretty conservative - no off-color jokes or anything like that. Her opinion? "Nice artwork." No offense for her either.
I think you're pretty safe.
Robin said:
"The bad guys tend to have beady eyes. The 'heroes' tend to be idealized people. And as any book on congenitive science will tell us, that is tall, red lipped, symmetrical, and certain proportions."
and rogerf said:
"You don't hear guys whining that the pecs and the cut abdominals on the Evil Mastermind are objectifying men to an unreasonable standard, are you?"
Yeah, but the male heroes are all drawn to be very strong and muscular, whereas the female heroes are all drawn to be boob-alicious and curvy. Surely if your job was running around fighting crime, your muscles would be large no matter what your gender was. (Also, if both male and female renditions are supposed to be idealized, why don't the male heroes have oversized schlongs?)
More explanation of my point is available at
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsread...readcomics/?
p=4
Having said all that, I don't think you particularly crossed the line, but as a white male, aged 25-35, I'm also not particularly qualified to make that judgement. 
(Finally, one last thing. "bwinton+blog@latte.ca" is a perfectly valid email address, and is, indeed my email address, so the error "Invalid email. Please check that you have entered your email address correctly" isn't particularly accurate.)
It's supposed to be a comic book. Presumably anyone finding it offensive would find most comic books offensive.
Maybe the question is not whether the comic went to far but whether the comic was the right medium? (Or is the medium the message?
)
I can't see anything wrong with it.
Is seems you're actually asking two questions - 1) Are we contributing to a physically unobtainable stereotype for women that is rampant in our society. and 2) Does contributing to that stereotype contribute to the gender imbalance in our industry.
In which case, my opinionated answers would be 1) Yes, but as others have stated, not as badly as the worst offenders, and 2) No. They're completely unrelated.
No, you didn't go too far.
I thought that ad was great .. the whole World Domination thing, with cartoon characters -- I definitely had a smile on my face. If anything, you have Evil Blob (you can tell he's evil because of the red eyes -- or maybe he's a PHB without hair) and Juanita, the take charge lead programmer. Quick. Cute. To the point. Nicely done.
And way less irritating that lots of banner ads that I've seen.
It would have never crossed my mind that this could be taken as offensive by some people.
I personally think that it's a sad sad world we live in that anyone would even say anything about it. It seems to me that these people are whining for the sake of whining.
There obviously is a gender gap in our industry, but it certainly isn't caused by a comic book promoting a product. I think every now and again people should stop and remind themselves that "Yes men and women are different by nature and perhaps - just perhaps that is the reason for the gender bias and not some comic book"
As a woman in the programming world, I'd say that no, I'm not offended. But I do get a slight vibe of "this is comic book stuff; you wouldn't understand because you're a girl*" from the whole ad series.
It's not enough to be a turn-off for your product or company, but it doesn't make it particularly attractive either (I only read the first ad out of curiosity, and was not tempted to read the rest).
*I'm not saying that only men read comic books. But I'd guess that the intersection of the tiny comic-book reading female population, and the tiny female programmers population is not exactly a significant market.
If you were doing your ads in a style that parodied Picasso, I would expect everything to be distorted to the point of non-recognition. Similarly since your ads are done as parodies of the comic book/graphic novel genre, then the artwork should be consistent with that style. Which it is.
Anyone who thinks that ads are just about making someone buy a product clearly have not watched many beer commercials. A good ad is also concerned with long-term brand recognition. Will people remember your product? Personally, I have found that the ads, along with the site and product branding makeovers, have given your company a "freshness" that has been missing for quite a while.
"Yeah, but the male heroes are all drawn to be very strong and muscular, whereas the female heroes are all drawn to be boob-alicious and curvy."
Yes indeed, the ideal male looks different than the ideal female, news at 11:00. That is also why superman lacks boobs, fair or not.
Also, what characters 'should' look like due to the extreme workouts they do has no bearing. Remember they *don't actually work out at all*, because they are comic characters. They convey information and emotion with simplified drawings, something impossible to do without some form of stereotypes. The emotional responses are real, just unrelated to logic.
Mr. Sink, I'm really glad you're considering these issues -- it is NOT out of line for people to suggest that you shouldn't pay money to distribute sexualized images of women while promoting your company. You're trying to balance the medium's tradition of presenting stylized representations of women with your responsibility to avoid objectifying women disproportionately.
I read a lot of comic books and the ones with hyper-sexualized images of women also tend to be very boring in the plot/character/dialogue departments. The SourceGear ad is kind of annoying in its unclothed-woman aspect, but the women we see most (Ada and the minion) aren't mindless bimbos. In fact, Ada's my new role model.
You should ask the Systers mailing list for more advice and discussion. I hesitate to reassure or damn you completely on my own.
In so much as she's the only competent individual in the comic, she's a positive role model. Could she be ugly and wear sweats? Yeah, and then you'd be contributing to a negative stereotype of female geeks being unattractive. Leave her out of the comic, and you are contributing to the impression that technical and management jobs are not open to women. Guess you're just hosed. Should have stayed with the movie theme, no negative stereotypes of women ever originated in Hollywood.
The comic book is 180 degrees from what you mentioned in your blog about the provocative ads that you see in the magazines. I've seen those and they cross the line.
btw, the code monkey ad is hilarious!
Eric,
I don't think it really crosses the line at all. It's all fairly tame.
The girlfriend agrees - "since when have comic books held anybody modestly dressed? superheroes in spandex, scantily clad heroines....
If it's just "no high necklines", dude, that reflects a lot of real life anyway, depending on how you define high"
As for the guy who was reading it and his wife was not amused, to be perfectly honest, might I suggest standing up for yourself? It doesn't sound like she respects your opinions very much.
not very funny, not sure what it has to do with bug tracking, didn't like the accessorizing comment, but not what I'd call beyond the pale. I would not have given it a second glance if I hadn't been specifically asked to scrutinize it for obnoxious gender stereotypes.
However: to other commenters who are quick to dismiss people who did believe the comic book went too far as "PC", whiners", and "crybabies": There are ways to politely disagree with someone else's assessment of "offensive" and "crossing-the-line" without being dismissive about it. When others seem 'overly sensitive' about something, it's usually because they've had life experiences that made them that way. Female software developers who have been sexually harassed on the job (I haven't, but I know women who have), for example, would probably be more hair-trigger about the portrayal of women in a software ad. It's not kowtowing to some kind of PC authorities to show concern when people complain about something you've done: it's common human courtesy, and good business.
Even if you ultimately decide there's nothing further you need to do about your ad campaign, at least you've asked honestly for feedback, and even those who are offended will find it easier to get over it because you _have_ taken their concerns seriously.
(Sorry -- I originally posted this comment on the wrong blog post somehow, and wanted to repost it on the correct thread. Feel free to delete the other comment.)
I'm not a comic book fan, but this just looks like standard comic book fare to me. I liked that one of the minions was an attractive yet serious looking woman (we aren't required to look like geeks and blend in any more). Either way, I trust your judgement and love your sense of humor (omg - the beach and sea monkey ads from the archie comic books we read when we were kids!!LOL!) so I would be hard pressed to think that you could cross "the line".
Not even approaching the line. London Hampton is not important to the story and is an obvious parody. Ada Deadlock does not use her curves to achieve her objectives. I didn't see a single minion oogle her.
If it were possible to be a positive (evil) role model, you could make her the brains behind the operation. She gets the minions to work effectively inspite of mastermind's grandiose plans. Ex: Lose the big diamond from one hand, but in the other, gain 29% more laser power from process improvements.
Ask for an Ada sample drawn with sensible eye-wear. That may bridge the gap between curvy comic book heroine and GTD power manager.
Love the code monkeys.
Hi Eric,
I found your post a bit surprising. I figured I must have missed something and went back and rechecked the comic, and realised I hadn't. I wouldn't have described Ada's clothing as anything other than 'modest', but then again, maybe that's because I'm 20
The female characters perfectly fit that comic book style. If anything, I'd say that an attempt to take the female characteristics out of them would go against the grain of the style of the rest of the comic.
I think Amy makes a very good point, though. There are going to be people who have a very real and legitimate reason to be touchy about this subject and they shouldn't be painted with the pedantic-PC brush as some people seem to be quick to do.
You are going to offend or at least turn off people with this comic series. It's pretty much a natural consequence of trying to create something with character - it will polarize almost by definition, for an uncountably large number of reasons. If you're not comfortable with that, then it's probably best to stay away from creating advertainment (is that a word?).
So this whole time I was watching the ad I thought you were referring to the bluntness of use Fortress to take over the world. Yeah, I take offense to that. I'm not a fan of world domination. I like the idea of Switzerland.
Now as far as the other topic goes. How else do you potray a female in a comic book and still realize easily that it is a female. Or what if you had done all males (which might be what it looks like with the females more 'modest'). If you had done that I would say you are trying too hard. Your in Illinois, not Washington DC so stop playing politics.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the female characters (dress or personality); if you question it then you should have been more conservative to start with.
The ad is just plain not funny. It's too contrived. Also, the setting off of "bombs" in the comic is most certainly not welcome in the day and age of terrorism and acts of violence (VT). In real life these things have real consequence.
It's best to stay away from entertainment if you are trying to advertise. Keep it short and subtle. A T-Shirt, A one page brochure with a short comic strip but not a whole comic book. There's no need for that sort of thing in the advertising arena.
Spend your money on elsewhere.
I didn't personally find it offensive although I can see how some might, but I also walked away thinking "Well of course this comic book was developed by a man". (whether or not that's true)
In most cases when I walk away from an advertisement thinking that statement, I will then also walk away thinking "The product this ad is for must also be developed by men" which then leads me to "I wonder if they know how to build products for *me*, or if the product is so stereotypically male that it won't work for my purposes".
This train of thought isn't as relevant in software as it is for other products, but it is something I've gone through more than once in my head when viewing an ad.
I don't mind the London character because it's so clear that that is art imitating life. But for ada, it's more of art-fitting-the-genre, and there I think you *could* have made the choice to go in a slightly different direction. Quantifying the value of that choice is probably impossible.
I also think it is silly to say that it's impossible to portray a female in a comic book without exaggerating the feminine characteristics! Give comic book artists more credit. I *know* they can find a way (if they wanted to) to draw a woman and let us know she's a woman without making her a 34DDD in a bikini.
Regarding the success of the ad as an ad... It did make me have good feelings about the company, I like knowing that the companies from which I buy products are made up of real people with senses of humor. So overall I thought it was cute. But since you asked...
Well at least you're not at the point where it's a crime in your company to wish people a Merry Christmas and have a Christmas tree.
Eric, you crack me up. "Are our female characters too provocative?", indeed. You'll try anything to get us to read it.
Such dressing and presentation depicts the powers they have (either given by Evil Mastermind or gained by their experience). I think such presentation is necessary to separate them from 9 to 5 minions.
I don't see any offensive things here. I must say that the storyline in comic book is very well designed but whenever I read, I feel that am reading a comic-book not an ad. for ALM tool. So I believe that if you can put more emphasis on how Sourcegear can actually solve certain development problems, the value of this ad. would go much higher.
~jatan
(1) I didn't find it offensive. But I'm not a good measure -- I rarely find anything offensive.
(2) It's a parody of comic books. Portraying women evenhandedly in such a parody would be impossible: any attempt to do so would be viewed as overcompensating (by some) or undercompensating (by others).
(3) It's a good idea to keep an eye out and notice when people start to be bothered, then step back from that line. Just as you are doing now.
(4) Use of comics... cool! I still haven't tried out your product. Sorry... I guess I'm driven more by actual capabilities, plus I'm fairly (hmm... make that "somewhat") happy with my current version control system. But the use of comics as a theme DID make me sit up and take notice, and remember your product's name (well, recognize it anyhow).
I _really_ like SourceGear products--and am a huge Eric Sink fan--so I am biased.
But, no, your comic book ads don't go too far. Having said that, and having appreciated the quality of the art in the ads, I wonder if they portray enough of a serious side of what you and your products do.
Your products are first-rate, highly recommendable, and fill serious voids in Microsoft's offerings. I think (you asked!) you should think about about not spending your entire add budget on the comic book theme. While it is very clever, I think it might miss the mark for a part of your potential prospect base.
Sincerely,
Roger Pence
Is the goal of your post more (self?) promotion or is this a serious question?
"or is this a serious question?"
Actually, it is a serious question. Although I am comfortable with the comic, I've heard some complaints from women I respect, so I thought I would solicit a broader set of perspectives.
Eric,
I have no problem with this at all. Yes, your comic is a bit more provocative but the online ad is fine.
Consider what people watch on TV and the like. It's fine.
one point though: you said:
"So I get annoyed when I flip open a magazine and see a software company using provocative pictures of women in their ad. If you're advertising a grid control or a reporting tool, show me the product, not the model you hired."
No- you're not doing a picture just of a woman to promote your product - you're showing off a COMIC. But you aren't advertising a product!
Comics have always been sexist even when promoting female "stars".
You haven't crossed the line.
Bah, anyone complaining about the comic would probably complain if you went the other way because the characters would be too nerdy.
London is wearing no less (in fact probably more) than the waste of space heiress she's obviously based on; if she looked any difference the joke would be lost. Ada looks too comic book to be described as attractive or really connected to real life.
I went to the Taste of Chicago this weekend and say about 5,000 women who were dressed WAY more immodestly than Ada, or even London. I think that rather than comparing your art to some ideal, you went a long way in portraying women MUCH better than thousands of normal women choose to portray themself. And that's just their appearance. I thought Ada was smart, a leader, savvy, etc, and even cooler than the Evil Mastermind (I'm dodging satellite lasers as I type this). Thumbs up for giving a positive portrayal of a woman in the field!
Take a look a few pages past SourceGear's ad on page 7 of DDJ 08/07 Issue and on page 11 a strikingly similar character appears in the Altova ad. Uncanny almost.
Hi Eric,
I think the issue here is people being purely oversensitive.
I personally think it's a sorry state of affairs that you have to question yourself as to whether the comic is acceptable or not. If people have an issue with the comic then god forbid that they ever be exposed to any modern music, advertisements on TV, advertisements on the radio, advertisements in magazines, the internet ... (I could go on forever but I've hopefully emphasised my point) ... or even modern society in general.
I personally think the comic was excellent, and you should be proud.
Regards,
Matt
I advise an engineering club at my local high school. I am very careful to avoid portraying it as a "boys' club". This year one of the most capable and enthusiastic members was a girl who's going to major in Chem E.
I recently noticed that my local Barnes and Noble bookstore has two sections of their magazine area labeled "Men's Interest" and "Women's Interest". The magazines about woodworking and machining are in the Mens' Interest section. What a pity.
I registered my opinion with the clerk, and she promised to pass it along to management, having already complained to them about it herself.
Eric, some things, like your comic strips, are open to interpretation. When I studied phoptography in college, I once photographed white, female footprints being pursued by black, male footprints when assigned to portray good and evil. A male professor said that it was blatantly sexist, but a female women's studies professor defended it. Part of the reason I eventually became a software developer was to avoid messy questions of interpretation like that.
When someone labels certain magazines as being for men or for women, that is blatant sexism and I have no hesitation about calling people on it. I want my daughter, and the girls at my local school, to feel as though they can choose any hobby or profession that interests them. Likewise, if my son becomes interested in macrame or quilting, I don't want Barnes and Noble telling him that these are "women's interests".
I wouldn't worry too much about comic strips. If you had two character, a circle and a square, some reader would probably think that they represented a woman and a man. People project themselves into these things. If you're not comfortable with that, my advice would be to avoid the genre.
Thank you, Dave. You're the only one so far to point out that the ad is just simply Not Funny.
It's not "Not Funny" because it's offensive; it's just plain Not Funny. It's boring. It's lame. It's FAR too long. Yawn.
You have only a couple of seconds to grab someone's attention, and that's if they're not blocking ads in the first place. When I'm not using an ad-blocker, I unconsciously skip over anything vaguely ad-looking anyway. The only reason I sat through the entire ad -- what was it, 20 seconds? -- was because you asked us to.
I notice that, outside of page 7 , no one is overweight; and no one has gray hair. What have you got against old fat guys?
I think you have to decide whether to be true to the art form which even today features scantily clad busty women (You have seen Sin City, right?) or to try something else.
I suppose you could go with a Donald Duck sort of look. No one ever complained that Daisy wasn't wearing any bottoms.
--dr
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