In addition, there's something oddly terrifying about his refering to Ayn Rand in the present tense.
So Byrne is saying that to show respect to a dead man they should fire many living people?
Somehow, I doubt Eisner would consider this a show of respect.
If the books are selling and the readers have no problem with it not being monthly I don't see why John Byrne should care. I guess he figures that the ability to do a monthly comic is the only advantage he has over the Hitch's and Cassady's of the world, but I still rather get 6 issues of Hitch drawn Ultimates than 12 issues of Byrne drawn Doom patrol.
I wish Eisner were alive to talk about this.
Byrne's got a point about those Image boys, at least Legend never solicited books that never appeared or were late.......
No doubt that's why Byrne's Legend line is still going while Image has gone the way of the dodo.
How about if I paid someone to build me a brand new house, and instead they gave me a shabby copy of a house built forty years ago? How about that?
Eisner also created his own characters and stuck with them for decades, didn't he?
Well, first of all, comics have always shipped late from time to time. Are there more books shipping late these days than 20 years ago? Probably. But still, people are human...it's not like "late books" was an invention of Image or anything.
What DC books are shipping late these days, on more than one occasion? Rebirth and Superman/Batman. Any others? We3 #3? I honestly can't think of any. Marvel's a bit worse, with Pulse coming out sometimes bi-monthly, Secret War, New Avengers has already started shipping late, Ultimates, Iron Man, etc etc...
Still, what does it really matter if the occasional book is late?
Your GOD is this Byrne stuff boring... (said the guy who had a hankerin' to re-read some older Byrne Marvel stuff and dug out/found She-Hulk 1-9 to be a work of pure joy... West Coast Avengers up next and then a complete re-read now that I have the 4th and final FF Visionaries: Byrne Collection. That's MY Byrne...)
To continue the inanity I hearby propose a useless Byrne meme:
1. Favorite Byrne Single Comic
2. Favorite Byrne Run on a title
3. Least Favorite Byrne Single Comic
4. Least Favorite Byrne Run on a title
5. Best Byrne Inker
Take it to the blogs motherfuckers!
Byrne makes a decent point in that it is bad business for a publisher to ship books late. He then ruins his point with the cunty, self-serving suggestion of firing the guys who can't churn it out ... like he can.
It's a tediously comics thing to blame the freelancer for a late book when it really falls to the company to make sure a book arrives in stores on time. Come on -- we all have a pretty clear idea of which freelancers can't produce a full pamphlet's worth of work on a monthly basis; the editors and publishers certainly know what's up when they hire these guys. It's moronic to hire a meticulous artist like Steve Rude and then solicit his series on a Byrne-speed schedule. And then the fans blame the artist, which just underlines how rotten and myopic they are.
There really is no good excuse for not waiting until a pamphlet is completed before soliciting it. The comic books being published today don't contain much topical and time-sensitive content, so it's not like THE CANTANKEROUS COCKBLOCKER #5 will spoil in the three-four months between its completion and distribution. This publishing method does require competent planning and bookkeeping, though.
Books shipping on time would help bring casual readers [if there are any] back into stores; if I knew that the SUE DINBY, GOOCH-PUNCHER one-shot will absolutely, positively be at my LCS this Weds., I'll go down and pick it up. If it ain't there, I ain't coming back next Wednesday, since I'm not that into seeing Nora Charles running around belting superdudes in their taint. I avoid comic stores as much as possible, and I ain't alone.
"the process by which comics are traditionally manufactured"
Does anybody else find this statement incredibly depressing?? I mean I know this is a buisness and everything but I still like to think that at least SOME of this stuff is CREATED.
I'm more forgiving of ongoing titles being late than mini-series. When Ultimate Nightmare is months late AND uses a fill-in artist for one of the issues, then I see where Byrne's got a point. Dear God, I'm agreeing with John Byrne - must be a sign of the Apocalypse.
I also don't like people like Millar LYING about where the Ultimates is in the schedule. If it's behind, just tell us - we don't care.
I have a better idea for a Will Eisner memorial: Make good comics.
Honestly, does anyone care when a shitty book ships?
"Eisner also created his own characters and stuck with them for decades, didn't he?"
Damn right.
If anyone felt they had to honour Eisner's legacy, devoting a significant amount of time to creating and owning your own original work would be a nice start.
But, really, everyone already knows that, right?
I was going to suggest that we all wear white pants and Duvall-style mustaches to San Diego like that totally swank picture of Eisner and Gil Kane from 1975 in the new CCI "Update," but making good comics and owning their rights is a pretty good idea, too.
Yeah, well, I don't go to San Diego. So it's the next best thing, you know?
I'm not getting back that $200 back I loaned "Warren Ellis" at last year's Klingon Rite of Ascension, am I?
You're a comics journalist. You don't have $200 to loan.
Can slinking away to cry be my tribute to Will Eisner?
It doesn't seem to have occurred to Byrne that there's another solution: hire these creators on a more realistic schedule in the first place. In many cases, they're only late because the schedule was always absurd. Anyone hiring Frank Quitely on a monthly schedule, for example, needs their head examined.
SUE DINBY, GOOCH-PUNCHER
I would buy this comic, and several more for dear friends.
Oh, and Warren wins.
I'm nobody's John Byrne fan, not even really when he was, you know, "good," but the man has a point. Mainstream comics that consistantly ship late move, in my mind, from "professional periodicals for a mass audience" to "zines" pretty fast. There's an amazing essay on Christopher Preist's site about his (largely disasterous) tenure as the 23-year old editor of the Spider-Man line 20 years ago. Almsot everything that could go wrong did, but his books damn well shipped on time. If a freelancer couldn't finish, a fill-in was called.
//it is time to fire all the prima donnas who cannot get their work in on time. It is time to boot the arrogant asses who are 'growing roses' and restore, as much as we can, the industry Will Eisner helped create. That would be a suitable living memorial to the memory of such a great man.//
Irretrievably vulgar. This would be the comic industry's equivalent to Bush using dead 9/11 firemen as a case to go to war.
That would be Christopher Priest's site, not Preist. Ahem.
I've always attributed the mass acceptence of late-shipping books to three things
1. A movement toward a creator-driven comics of all stripes.
2. A direct market that didn't care about late shipping books as much as a newstand might, as the DM stores don't have issues of Time, Sports Illustrated, Redbook and Penthouse to compete with for shelf-space.
3. Writing for trades. If the idea is nobody is going to care about the story as a story until the trade, then I guess nobody need care when an individual issue arrives. The trade gets here when it gets here, and that's that.
Are there any editors for the Big Two here? Do editors risk alienating cosistantly late creators on franchise books if they call for a fill-in issue b/c of chronic inabilty to meet deadlines. I'm curious.
Milo said "cunty."
"it is time to fire all the prima donnas"
So when's Byrne getting fired?
Gross: Actually, Priest did technically drop the "Christopher" moniker so as not to be confused with the British author of THE BOOK ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER. However, the recent GREEN LANTERN novels he's written are back under the nom de plume of "Christopher J. Priest".
That site of his is interesting. Real interesting.
Relevant quote #1:
Batman uber-editor Bob Schrek interview from Ninth Art:
(Alex Dueben's words, not Schreck's)
"Producing a comic generally takes nine months, just like having a baby, to go from script to the stands."
Relevant quote #2:
Joe Casey interview from The Comics Journal, on the Steve Rude/Children of the Atom debacle:
"Steve was slow. But it was an era at Marvel where they had no tolerance for that kind of thing. I've said this in other places, but had Quesada been in charge, I think he would have ridden it out. We've seen similar projects where he just rode it out. His own run on Daredevil, for instance. That was not an option back then, with that regime."
Ok, fine so far. Tolerance for getting the job done right. In that regard I can live with the John Cassadays and Bryan Hitchs of the world. But...
"They scheduled it before they had any grasp what Steve's speed would be. It was just ...sad."
And this really hasn't changed at all. Unrealistic scheduling from people who are either ignorant or apathetic doesn't benefit anyone.
Relevant quote #3:
Steve Rude interview with Comics Journal:
"They should wait until the guy's underway on the book, and then make a decision about release dates. That's the only sane, common sense way to work."
Sounds good to me. To this day, I can't think of a reason NOT to have something "in the can" before soliciting it. Is the immediacy so important? Music artists are required to promote work that is "new" to the customer but is actually one or two years old to the artist. Is that so unfeasible in the comic publishing world?
I'm sure Eisner would be happy with the legacy of "Shit comics, on time."
Anyway, I blame the letterers.
One day Bryne's head is going to get so big that it will eclipse the sun; and the gravitational force of his own self-importance will suck the milky way into nothingness leaving only his greatness.
Only then will I give two shits what the CEO of Byrne Robotics thinks.
John Byrne's one to be talking about arrogent prima donnas while calling for his peers to be fired as a tribute to a man ten times the creator he was. The hypocrisy of it all is stunning. I'd rather buy a comic that's late than buy one from a man who shows that much respect to his coworkers. The scheduling is the real problem and Byrne's attitude of disdain is just salt on the wound.
I guess I'm part of the problem, I buy trades more often now and I'll drop a book if the artist is dropped.
And Joe Gross's questions had me wondering, manga is "creator-driven" and "written for the trade", but manga artists manage to get 20 pages out every week. Osamu Tezuka would output a 100 pages a month, almost makes Eisner look like Joe Matt.
Their secret, several assistants and tracing photos like mad, but at least it all looks consistant.
I have heard (although I don't remember where) that some rushed scheduling is due to wanting to improve the look of the budget. That is, the company estimates that project X will sell YY thousand copies, and they want to push the expected revenue into a certain quarter, so they schedule the book knowing that it won't make it, but the accountants and bosses have better-looking estimates.
I'm probably not explaining this right, but I hope you get the jist of it.
Johanna -
I'd believe that - it makes perfect sense. Marvel needs to satisfy its shareholders and DC needs to keep Time-Warner happy, so give them shiny happy estimates and then give a mea culpa when they fail to materialize.
(Almost makes you long for the days when the comics companies were tax shelters and money-laundering operations that no one really cared about...)
"I have heard (although I don't remember where) that some rushed scheduling is due to wanting to improve the look of the budget. That is, the company estimates that project X will sell YY thousand copies, and they want to push the expected revenue into a certain quarter, so they schedule the book knowing that it won't make it, but the accountants and bosses have better-looking estimates.
I'm probably not explaining this right, but I hope you get the jist of it."
Then Byrne is basically asking DC to fire everyone on it's staff. Stay tuned for next issue when JOHN BYRNE DESTROYS THE COMICS INDUSTRY!!
Milo said "cunty."
Say it loud and there's music playing,
Say it soft and it's almost like praying
"JOHN BYRNE DESTROYS THE COMICS INDUSTRY!"
And that's the truth right there. Byrne is basically asking DC to send all those talented artists over to Marvel, who I'm sure won't be complaining about that too much. Then the unbalance in talent will just wreck havok on the industry. Sheer stupidity. Plus I love how the Byrne board thread has a guy who laid witness to Byrne personally laying down this challenge to Paul Levitz at the Eisner memorial. All class right there.
Note they didn't have a witness to Levitz giving a Byrne a 'what kind of a fucking moron are you?' look in response.
I like the part in Byrne's original (other) Eisner Memorial post where he says he met up with his old 'pals' Mignola and Miller (the one's who stuck with their creator owned books when Byrne bailed saying the market couldn't support JBNM despite his books outselling Mignola's!).
"Got to chat briefly with Frank Miller and Mike Mignola. Their people are going to call my people, and we will do lunch."
Is it just me or is that a polite fuckoff given Byrne traveled all the way to New York and presumably hasn't seen them in a while?
I can't help picturing Mignola and Miller then heading off to lunch together to toast Eisner's dedication to creator owned projects and how much their own commitments had achieved, while JB headed to DC to see was there any Work For Hire fill ins available.
Worth noting that not only did Miller and Mignola stick with their creator-owned books (thought both tip their tows into the big two at times), but both got successful movies out of their books, movies over which they each had a significant amount of control.
Check out the other thread where Byrne completely misquotes Michael Chabon in regards to his comments about Eisner being one of the first creators in the early days of comics to consider it an artform.
I think the guy will say and do anything to make people not on his approved list look bad. Too bad it has the completely opposite effect.
How utterly pathetic.
What's the actual quote? It doesn't sound like they bring it up in the thread.
(Almost makes you long for the days when the comics companies were tax shelters and money-laundering operations that no one really cared about...)
Almost?
"Is it just me or is that a polite fuckoff given Byrne traveled all the way to New York and presumably hasn't seen them in a while?"
Sounds like he's saying they've "gone Hollywood." Which they have, probably, but they're also largely responsible for two of the best comics-based movies ever. I think you can still find Danger Unlimited in the quarter bin.
Oops. What Julio said.
"What's the actual quote? It doesn't sound like they bring it up in the thread."
It's in this thread, entitled 'Will Eisner': http://jb.24-7intouch.com/forum/...N=1&
totPosts=32
However, according to Jackie Estrada in the Pulse thread about the memorial, he said that "back in the late 1930s and early 1940s Will was the only guy who saw comics as an artform and that Chabon based that aspect of Joe Kavalier on Will."
http://www.comicon.com/thebeat/
a...eisnes_spi.html
During the many speeches made after Julie Schwartz's passing it was noted that, in a career spanning decades he had consistently eaten bean soup once a week for lunch and, during her lifetime, called his wife faithfully several times a day. So, here is my 'challenge': If DC really wants to create a memorial to Julie, and not merely pay lip service to the man and his career, it is time to fire all the dipwads who don't eat bean soup and call their spouses.
Because, of course, the correct way to honor someone's memory is to force the industry to do whatever they did.
Next up, we'll be honoring Jack Kirby by firing anyone who doesn't spend the bulk of their time on series and characters of their own creation.
We would have plans to honor Alex Toth, Bill Finger, Neal Adams, Gil Kane, Dave Cockrum, George Perez and Bill Everett, but since they missed too many deadlines in their careers, they have been reclassified as Arrogant, Rose-Growing Prima Donna Asses, and their contributions to the industry are being retroactively scrubbed under the Eisner Memorial Rule.
We're confident Will would be proud to see such a respectful memorial.
kdb
Oh SNIPPITY SNAP!!!!
Darn it Dan, hip slang must be "heard" to be effective.
I think I really understand now: Kurt wins!
Allways!
Kurt, man. You win. Again. And again.
Considering what Byrne's calling for in what Graeme quoted, the hypocricsy of this quote is hi-larious.
"Michael Chabon, on tape, managed to compliment Will by insulting everyone else who has ever worked in the industry. Thanks so much, Mike!"
Yeah. What's wrong with him. Doesn't he know that the funeral wasn't the place for that? It's meant as a way of trying to get Paul Levitz to fire all of the creators who don't work like John Byrne!
What's also stupid is that this is the guy who was complaining about people who were offended by his remark about how he felt "blonde latinas look like hookers no matter how clean or cute they are."
"Considering what Byrne's calling for in what Graeme quoted, the hypocricsy of this quote is hi-larious.
"Michael Chabon, on tape, managed to compliment Will by insulting everyone else who has ever worked in the industry. Thanks so much, Mike!"
What he REALLY meant, was that Michael Chabon insulted John Byrne.
And maybe Jack Kirby.
Okay, you guys know how Kurt Busiek wins, right? But have you ever noticed that he always wins by a very, very wide margin? These are not close races.
"...hire these creators on a more realistic schedule in the first place. In many cases, they're only late because the schedule was always absurd. Anyone hiring Frank Quitely on a monthly schedule, for example, needs their head examined."
I blame the editors.
"Next up, we'll be honoring Jack Kirby by firing anyone who doesn't spend the bulk of their time on series and characters of their own creation."
Sounds too much like creativity.
Yes, yes, Kurt always wins. But know what I like best about Kurt's latest victory? This:
Next up, we'll be honoring Jack Kirby by firing anyone who doesn't spend the bulk of their time on series and characters of their own creation.
Man, that one line is easily the best and most subtle hoisting of Byrne upon his own pitard ever written.
John Byrne...the Ian Levine of comics
Wow.
Yes, Kurt Busiek always wins, but this time, rather than simply winning in his characteristically understated fashion, he just pulled a motherfucking Mortal Kombat finishing move. I can't help but imagine two miniature, pixellated video game icon versions of Kurt and Byrne, with Kurt ripping Byrne's spinal column out of his body, as the booming voice in the background growls, "FLAWLESS VICTORY." 
Kurt for President.
Anyway the analogy Byrne uses is ridiculous like most everything he says.
"Tell me if you hired someone to build you a house you would be happy if he left off the back wall, as long as he did a good job on the rest of it."
Does he realise he's working in the realm of serialised fiction? Where you don't have to wait until every single chapter of a story is in your hands in order to start using it?
I'm guessing the Doom Patrol cancellation came through hence his current pissiness.
See, no, the real beauty of how dumb his analogy of:
"Tell me if you hired someone to build you a house you would be happy if he left off the back wall, as long as he did a good job on the rest of it."
is that it's actually an argument IN FAVOR of letting artists take their time. Rush jobs in construction lead to shoddy work and mistakes like Byrne's left off back wall.
His analogy should have been: Tell me if you hired someone to build you a house you would be happy if he did a good job on it despite the fact he was three months late in finishing.
But that doesn't work for Byrne either because it gives credit to the argument that quality is more important than speed. Thus proving his logic is flawed to begin with. Anyways I think he's just mad at Kevin Smith.
Oh and "Kurt for President." no.
Kurt for EIC!
Ahem...
"Eisner also created his own characters and stuck with them for decades, didn't he?"
Firsties!
Just kidding. Byrne wouldn't care what I have to say, and why should he?
"Just kidding. Byrne wouldn't care what I have to say, and why should he?"
Byrne doesn't care what ANYONE has to say. Unless they agree with him completely, of course.
Anyway, his logic is completely flawed every which way you look at it, especially in the context of his unfounded complaint about Cabon's comment. If he really considered comics to be a true art form, he wouldn't expect every single one of it's practitioners to churn them out like automobiles. And he would also take into account that while there were (and are) a few primma donnas in the industry (he just needs to look in the mirror), that seems to rarely be the case these days as to the reasons for lateness. But what else would you expect from a Republican Objectivist?
That would be 'Chabon' not 'Cabon'...
Going a little off topic, (or maybe moving back on topic, who the fuck knows?)didn't Eisner use assistants on the Spirit? Or was that only while he was serving overseas?
I'm trying to imagine how Seth Cohen would react to all this, but my belief is that Ryan would instead just punch Byrne and spout of one these classic lines:
"Welcome to The O.C, Byrne bitch!"
"You know what I like about Byrne? Nothing."
This has been your OC education for the day.
I wish Seth Cohen was the Blue Beetle, and we were all Max Lord.
//\Oo/\\
Countdown to Infinite O.C isn't the catchiest title... 
"The only reason it's going to be late is that it's going to be late."
I wonder if Byrne told himself that right before he was fired off of The Hulk a few years back?
"I wish Seth Cohen was the Blue Beetle, and we were all Max Lord."
You're the Blue Beetle!
So, is HELLBOY: SEED OF DESTRUCTION the best selling book Byrne has contributed to in the last couple of decades, or what?
As usual, Byrne buries a valid point ("comics should come out when the creators and publishers say they will come out") beneath an avalanche of bile and hyperbole. His definition of "professionalism" is very odd, given the constant attacks on everyone who isn't him.
"Going a little off topic, (or maybe moving back on topic, who the fuck knows?)didn't Eisner use assistants on the Spirit? Or was that only while he was serving overseas?"
Eisner had assistants/collaborators from just after the Spirit's launch to its end in '52.
"As usual, Byrne buries a valid point ("comics should come out when the creators and publishers say they will come out") beneath an avalanche of bile and hyperbole. His definition of "professionalism" is very odd, given the constant attacks on everyone who isn't him."
His inability to communicate any thought or idea with any subtlety or reasoned thought is indicative in part as to why his comics are so awful. In other words, he's simply a horrible communicator.
Gravatar "I wish Seth Cohen was the Blue Beetle, and we were all Max Lord."
You want him to come back as an OMAC?
I just read through issues 1-13 of Girl Genius. You know when that came out? Whenever. I have no idea if there was a regular schedule or not.
But damn, is it a good book.
One thing about Byrne, he knows how to make a deadline-the guy got kidnapped by the Watcher and journeyed across the galaxy to watch the trial of Reed Richards and he still managed to meet his deadline. Total pro, that guy. Let's see these prima donnas try that.
oooh, that phrase "the basic ignorance of the consumer"....(shudders)
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