I was going to write something snarky, but - yawn - I am so bored...
Think I'll take a little nappy.
So the guy who reviews all the X books is bored? Shocking! Paul, maybe it's time to rethink your mission.
Why does a "vintage year" label require big newsworthy changes in the industry? As bitchworthy as a lot of the big crossovers are, I think the average comic book is actually much better than it was a decade ago. Never before in all my years of reading comics have I ever had so many ongoing comics that I enjoy as much as I currently do. Mainstream and indy both.
I guess that's not exciting 
Dasbender, you need to take your positive outlook on things elsewhere! There'll be none of that here.
Comics suck! Comix suck! Manga sux!
Long live Dagwood Bumstead!
What was so eventful about last year and the year before, anyway?
I think DC gutting its marketing department and going after Marvel really aggressively is a fun and significant mainstream story with a lot of side stories, from manga to retailer angst. It's not my story of the year thus far or anything, but it'd probably make my top five.
There are a lot of significant stories if you step outside of 1974's conception of the comic book industry, too.
Uhm, good comics?
Trust me, I feel Paul's pain and I only gotta write something every couple of months. You try finding something interesting to talk about on a regular basis when it's all "Infinite Crisis Check-lists" and "Joe Madureira does a cover".
At some point, if the comfortable neighbourhood theatre near your house starts showing ONLY michael Bay movies, and you really, really enjoy good movies, and really have a hankering to see one, because you're bored with Michael Bay movies, might it not behoove you to drive three blocks over and see what's playing at that mysterious independent theatre? The one with real butter on the popcorn?
Some readers need to be gently led because they don't even know there are companies making good comics, but Paul, man, you've been around long enough to know there's good stories in comics form. It's not the corporate publishers who are to blame because you've outgrown their shoddy product. There's a whole world of better work out there, a lot of it in the genre you're hankering for, folks in spandex shooting bolts out of their hands. I hope you're bored enough to start looking for better material from other publishers. Because you're too smart to keep up the Marvel/DC slog any longer.
"I hope you're bored enough to start looking for better material from other publishers."
See the comments in the original column about manga and apply by analogy.
ADD I'm pretty sure he's talking about the news in the comics industry not the quality of the books. Course I'm only saying that because I know how to read, but that's just my take.
Guys, I hate to threadjack, but does anyone remember where that Grant Morrison parody was--the one where his head was floating in all the panels of The Filth or something, explaining all the deep imagery?
we now return you...
Paul,
So stuff like Jack Staff, the new Nexus collections, and other superhero stuff is no good? It's gotta be Marvel or nothing?
Well, we all know the cycle will come back around -- every few years good things come out of Marvel, the last significant time being, what, 2001? When Morrison was writing New X-Men and Bendis wasn't played out? I guess, then, hang in there and wait. You're denying yourself a world of good stuff, though, and it's not just manga and angst-ridden photocopied indy filth, either.
"ADD I'm pretty sure he's talking about the news in the comics industry not the quality of the books."
Pardon me for not caring if the quality of the "news" about Marvel and DC is of sufficient quality. Somehow I suspect even Paul would rather read good comics than good press releases about them.
Bill-
http://www.buzzscope.com/feature...tures.php?
id=81
I already read JACK STAFF, and NEXUS is on my list.
You do, however, seem to be missing the point of the column by a mile.
To clarify: I am utterly baffled by the general assumption that if one is bored of comics, one should start randomly reading more comics in the hope of stumbling upon something that one likes. While this view seems awfully popular among comics columnists, many of whom seem to lead remarkably comics-focussed lives, I think it bears little resemblance to the thought processes of the average reader who, like me, is considerably more like to say "fuck it", pack the whole thing in, and watch more movies instead.
Paul,
Some of enjoy comics as an artform. I guess it comes as no surprise that you'd be so militantly Marvelcentric, given the entire point of your efforts of the past few years, but it's only because of the intelligence that comes through in your writing that some people, myself included, honestly think you'd enjoy more comics if you simply expanded your blinkers just a little.
But since you clearly don't want to, and eloquently have stated your position, I can't fault you in the least.
I look forward to your movie reviews at Ninth Art and the X-Axis in the near future. I love intelligent film critics, too.
Y'know, we've got ALL STAR SUPERMAN and another volume of SCOTT PILGRIM this year. That's all I need. =)
But Paul, it doesn't have to be random. There are dozens and dozens of critics out there. I bet one of them has taste that is similar to your own. Start reading that critic's recommendations and see if it continues to work. I'd be bored, too, if all read was mainstream superstuff.
You're not bored of comics, though, you're bored of English-language superhero comics.
The average consumer of everything other than comic books, and even less so in comic books these days than ever before, doesn't access a medium through one genre or grouping and solely through the present iteration of that genre. There are fans like that, but I don't think they're average.
I don't think anyone has suggested you randomly read comics, but you might try the best of what's been touted, perhaps in a related genre, to see if you have an interest in it.
You're right in that you don't *have* to read comics and there's nothing wrong with liking one kind of comic and only that kind of comic, or when the kinds of comics you like don't do it for you go do something else.
But it's not comics that's letting you down, it's one aspect of comics.
Paul,
When my kids got bored of Teletubbies and Sesame Street, they didn't give up television. They moved on to more grown up fare. I think that's what ADD is saying, although he's a better writer than I and can make his points well enough.
"I look forward to your movie reviews at Ninth Art and the X-Axis in the near future."
Well, last I checked, Ninth Art is a comics site. But I've been seriously considering a major overhaul of the X-Axis for a while now. And, in fact, I *have* booked the next couple of weeks off work to spend watching more-or-less randomly selected shows from the Fringe and the Edinburgh Film Festival.
"When my kids got bored of Teletubbies and Sesame Street, they didn't give up television. They moved on to more grown up fare."
I am touched by your assumption that I read nothing aimed at the over-5s.
Paul, John was using a metaphor and you know it. Don't get personal and huffy about it. I love superheroes but I'd never claim that they were the providence of adult literature or art.
I think Paul's critique has value in that the mainstream companies are losing and will continue to lose a certain type of reader -- a smart, under-40 male readership that liked the New Marvel stuff and stuff like Sleeper or whatever. I'm certain they don't give a shit as long as they can make up each loss with 1.5 copies bought by a crazed old-school fanboy, though.
It's just an analogy. My kids are only 7 and 4. It's not like I could talk about how they outgrew stuff in their teen years.
"And, in fact, I *have* booked the next couple of weeks off work to spend watching more-or-less randomly selected shows from the Fringe and the Edinburgh Film Festival."
Certainly time better spent than reading anything from Marvel or DC this year.
And you know, Marvel and DC are comics for children. I mean, we're all dancing around this because we honestly like you and your writing, but really it's time to either give up what Tom called English-language superhero comics, or wade out of the shallow end of the pool and see if you still like swimming.
"And you know, Marvel and DC are comics for children."
This depends on how you define children, but we both know full well that the target audience for superhero comics has skewed far older than that for years now.
When Paul's column's conclusion is "I primarily read comics for Superheroes. Why isn't the two big companies doing more interesting superhero work?" it's missing the point to argue that he should try more non-superhero work to solve this problem.
Different issue, entirely, and kinda a waste of time to suggest him trying X, Y or Z comic.
KG
Um, how many people actually read X-Axis?
Usually (though not the last few weeks), he devotes a full-length review to at least one non X-book. Last week he did Night Mary from IDW.
He's also done Sea of Red, Smoke, Dead Eyes Open, Frank Ironwine and normalman in the past year or so (that's just the non-Big 2 Books that got full-length reviews, by the way).
They're for children and for adults who appreciate child-like things. Some of them are for adults that need child-like things to be made nasty and grim, to reflect how they feel about the world around them and how it's betrayed them. But that's not you, and that's why you're bored.
I fought getting non-mainstream books tooth and nail, for years. It took a then-girlfriend to really break me through and find that I could get MORE enjoyment out of a well-done comic about Jimmy Corrigan than an OK book about the Justice League.
"We both know full well that the target audience for superhero comics has skewed far older than that for years now."
Yes, a further indication of the creative bankruptcy at the heart of the current corporate comics industry. Yet another reason to try other sorts of comics go to a Scottish Film Festival.
Exactly, Kieron. Of course I could find good indie comics if I looked hard enough. I could also find good novels and good films. Or I could take up basketweaving. Or learn tai kwon do.
The assumption that the solution is More Comics betrays an extremely narrow focus on comics, where comics compete exclusively with other comics rather than with the whole range of human activity.
Yes, Paul, we're the ones with a narrow point of view.
Wow, discussion well and truly over.
I am utterly baffled by the general assumption that if one is bored of comics, one should start randomly reading more comics in the hope of stumbling upon something that one likes... the average reader who, like me, is considerably more like to say "fuck it", pack the whole thing in, and watch more movies instead.
Well, you either love the medium or you don't. If you don't, and it's just certain titles and characters you like, then sure, drop out if those titles and characters are no longer giving you what you crave.
Although, I will say your reaction that it is unfathomable for someone to suggest that you look for something else to read, is an attitude that is sadly more prevalent in comics than any other medium... even the most die-hard Star Wars geeks will surely seek out other movies to watch now that the SW franchise has run its course. I doubt they're going to give up on movies altogether.
I dunno about a "point" or anything, but when a guy whose writing you like seems down on comics, I don't see the problem in saying, "Yeah, those comics are really terrible. You should try these. They're unterrible."
Stop being so narrow-minded, Joe.
Just in case anyone asks, here's a French-language superhero comic:
http://www.comicsreporter.com/in...urocomics/2560/
I also don't see superheroes as a shallow end compared to the deep end where Joe Sacco is riding around on his inner tube or whatever. At least not a pool based on genre. I think because of the superhero genre's arbitrary parameters you have to work really hard, ideally in a really suppostiv ebusiness-creative environment, to make such comics that are consistently interesting to adult readers, particularly over a long period of time. Or you can be Genius of Spectacle Channeling the Gods like Jack Kirby was and then it largely doesn't matter how reflexively juvenile and uninteresting other aspects of your work end up. I think the kind of effort to make mature, satisfying entertainments is that much more difficult in comics because the kind of investment that makes top-line craft possible is just as likely to pursue profit by abandoning any pretense of complexity, nuance or innovation.
But I've been seriously considering a major overhaul of the X-Axis for a while now.
Why not experiment with doing reviews of only non-X books for a few weeks, and see if it's more satisfying? You could call it "The Ex-X-Axis".
As the last years has proved to a depressing T.
ADD - throwing "Read more indie comics" at anybody who complains about comics is a weak argument. Paul provably reads indie comics too. And yet still finds comics boring. In fact, people blindly throwing "Read more indie comics" at any argument is just as irritating as "But it's not superheroes!"
"Even the most die-hard Star Wars geeks will surely seek out other movies to watch now that the SW franchise has run its course. I doubt they're going to give up on movies altogether."
Bad analogy. STAR WARS films only come along every couple of years. If there exists a viewer who only goes to the cinema for STAR WARS, then yeah, I figure he'll probably stop now.
A better analogy would be somebody who only goes to the cinema to see action films and then loses interest in the action movies being produced. And yes, I think a lot of them would drift away from cinema rather than try something completely different, because they're not fans of the medium.
"I think the kind of effort to make mature, satisfying entertainments is that much more difficult in comics because the kind of investment that makes top-line craft possible is just as likely to pursue profit by abandoning any pretense of complexity, nuance or innovation."
In comparison with which medium? I can see how this might be true of theatre, novels and music, but surely not of television and films - both of which require far higher levels of investment than comics, and yet still manage to sustain a far healthier intelligent mainstream.
A better analogy would be somebody who only goes to the cinema to see action films and then loses interest in the action movies being produced.
But there are plenty of good action comics out there.
I mean, isn't really the problem that the X-books are moribund? Say all the X-books were written as well as GLA and Madrox (to name two recent minis you seem to have enjoyed), would you still feel the lack of enthusiasm you do now?
"I mean, isn't really the problem that the X-books are moribund?"
No.
"Well, you either love the medium or you don't."
Nonsense.
If the audience for any medium is limited to the people who "love the medium," then that medium, trust me, is well and truly fucked and close to extinction -- even more so than the superhero-centric North American comics market is right now.
Comics have the potential to reach more people than just the hardcore enthusiasts. We know that -- mainly because, in regions other than the United States, they've already realized it.
And of course comics compete on a wide spectrum of human experiences. But comics are more likely to compete for more of my time as a human being when the entirety of comics is a factor instead of one sub-group. I'm not likely to sit through another community theater production of South Pacific, or even one launched on Broadway with your requisite sitcom stars or whatever, but I'll see a good show in New York by Rebecca Gilman or Tony Kushner if there's one playing.
The only thing about that movie theater analogy in regards to comics is that it's more appropriate to say that you're lucky if your city has even one movie theater showing art films and then only shows each film for a couple of days at inconvenient times.
As someone who enjoys books like Street Angel and Dead West, the sheer difficulty of actually getting them is burning me out.
It's getting so that I'd rather spend my money on CDs or DVDs than great indie series that would take me weeks to actually find a copy of. Imagine that...
"I mean, isn't really the problem that the X-books are moribund?"
No.
Eh, okay. But like I said, there are plenty of good action comics out there right now, so whatever the problem is, it's a lot more limited in scope than an entire genre.
There's being bored by comics and then there's being bored by comics news. I'm bored by lots of comics, but I still like them in theory so i find fun ones by looking a little harder than some folks. Same as with movies... were movies not having a godawful year too, and I didn't notice??
But being bored by comic news-- hell, you're supposed to be bored by that. Do you work in comics? Do you know any of those people? If it's not your life and you're just trainspotting...
My god, some of you people just love to "hear" yourself talk, don't you? Did you even read the essay?
I'm here primarily because I'm a genre fan rather than because of a devout love of the theoretical possibilities of the medium.
That answers the majority of the myopic posts so far.
Really, some of you are like newly converted AA members running around the bar spouting the evils of John Barleycorn! Get over yourselves. Not everybody shares your tastes, nor should they.
"As someone who enjoys books like Street Angel and Dead West, the sheer difficulty of actually getting them is burning me out."
Actually, that IS a factor, and one I'm glad you mentioned. My store isn't as good about ordering random indie books as the one I used go to when I lived in Glasgow. In theory, my attitude is that I'll buy the books I'm interested in when they come out as a trade. In practice, this is subject to my remembering to order it a year down the line.
But yes, the sheer level of hassle involved in trying to sample indie books is a major barrier for all but the most determined.
I've been reading your columns for a couple years now, Paul, and I can understand how you feel simply because of how you approach the column. You buy comics you know you won't like for the same of reviewing them only because of their, now, very loose connection with the source.
Although some people are saying "buy more comics" is the answer I think that is only half right. Stop buying comics you know you won't like. If it turns out they are good (for once), then chances are very good you'll be able to pick it up again next time you go to the shop.
Buy less comics. Enjoy what you get. That will reinvigorate your passion to find another avenue to devote your energies to. But for God's sake, stop buying/reading comics you know you don't/won't like! That kills it for anybody.
I would disagree slightly that television and movies clearly have a more satisfying mainstream product than comics does -- have you seen an American mainstream movie lately? -- but I think the key difference is that the American superhero companies have fashioned a system where mainstream has to = superheroes because of numerous financal disincentives to change, which isn't reflected in any other narrative art form. Then they further discovered that making the center of that "mainstream" smart guys 25-40 who like challenging and reasonably fresh material of that type wasn't all that viable a commerical construct.
Gay man: "God, there are no hot men in this bar. I'm bored!"
Bi Man: "Why not try sleeping with a woman?"
Gay Man: "I'm not interested in women!"
Bi Man: "No, really try women."
Gay Man: "I'd rather go to another bar"
Bi Man: "SMALL MINDED BIGOT!"
Gay Man: "I'm off".
KG
I'm with Paul on this one. It's getting harder and harder to work up my enthusiasm about comics. My pull list has shrunk down to 3-4 books a month, and those are books I follow out of some vestige of loyalty mixed with morbid curiosity.
I occasionally read some of my wife's indie books, and they are entertaining for the most part. But given a choice, I'd rather replay San Andreas or read a prose book instead.
People drop interests and pick up new ones all the time. Please don't see it as a personal slight against "your" hobby when they do.
"In comparison with which medium? I can see how this might be true of theatre, novels and music, but surely not of television and films - both of which require far higher levels of investment than comics, and yet still manage to sustain a far healthier intelligent mainstream."
Uhhh...I'm tempted to quibble with that last bit. I do love serial dramatic television, and there are a number of fine shows out there, but the idea that the mainstream that watches "According To Jim" and "Medium" is any more intelligent and healthy than the mainstream that reads comics seems to be reaching.
The debate demonstrates the insularity of the medium and the widespread inferiority complex of its audience.
In more established media, it's entire valid and commonplace to bemoan a decline of quality or innovation in a specific branch or genre.
Do it in comics, and people will almost certainly start listing all the wonderful branches and genres which are completely different from the one you happen to enjoy.
If all the vegetarian restaurants in town suddenly get shitty cooks, the solution, apparently, is to switch to meat loaf! Because it's good food, too!
I don't necessarily mean that the mainstream as a whole is intelligent, merely that a reasonable amount of intelligent material exists within the mainstream.
Kieron wins. And so does Paul, by proxy.
"Well, you either love the medium or you don't."
Nonsense.
If the audience for any medium is limited to the people who "love the medium," then that medium, trust me, is well and truly fucked and close to extinction -- even more so than the superhero-centric North American comics market is right now.
Comics have the potential to reach more people than just the hardcore enthusiasts. We know that -- mainly because, in regions other than the United States, they've already realized it.
I don't think you have to be a "hardcore enthusiast" to love a medium. Plenty of people love TV, love movies, love books, without being Jeff Jarvis, Roger Ebert, or Michiko Kakutani.
It's really just a sign of how insular comics fans are that the phrase "I love comics" sounds stranger than "I love" any of those other media.
Kieron wins.
"The assumption that the solution is More Comics betrays an extremely narrow focus on comics, where comics compete exclusively with other comics rather than with the whole range of human activity."
I definitely see your point, though I'm coming at the problem from a different direction. I read practically *no* mainstream superhero comics anymore. And I've been much, much more interested in reading prose novels, both fiction and non-fiction (and none of it genre fiction) that I've not read a graphic novel in over 4 months. It's not due to total disinterest, however, since I continue to order and receive them from khepri.com, it's just that my focus is on the prose stuff, which leaves me little to no time to read comics.
Now if I chose to stay home every night of the week, instead of going to the gym, out to dinner with friends or on a date, then I'd have plenty of time to read graphic and prose novels. But I don't love comics THAT much...
"The debate demonstrates the insularity of the medium and the widespread inferiority complex of its audience."
... what doesn't demonstrate that? my whole life demonstrates the widespread inferiority complex of the comic audience, thank you very much...
It is SO not hard to find any comic book out there. That's just silly. What comics may lack in easy availability they more than make up in scrutiny. They more than compete with equivalent art forms. And kick some in the ass: try getting a production of Spinning Into Butter mailed to Silver City, New Mexico.
It's easy to GET indie comics, yes, but only as long as you're prepared to order them sight unseen.
This is such a stupid debate.
Paul, do whatever the hell you want.
Because there's no site that reviews them reliably in any depth. Damn you, team comix!
Gay man: "God, there are no hot men in this bar. I'm bored!"
Bi Man: "Why not try sleeping with a woman?"
Gay Man: "I'm not interested in women!"
Bi Man: "No, really try women."
Gay Man: "I'd rather go to another bar"
Bi Man: "SMALL MINDED BIGOT!"
Gay Man: "I'm off".
More like:
Straight Man: God, there just aren't enough interesting one-legged bicycling enthusiasts in this bar. Women suck!
Other Straight Man: Well, you might want to try some of the two-legged variety...
Straight Man: I said ONE-LEGGED! Did you miss my entire point? What are you trying to push on me? Respect my tastes!
Peanut Gallery: Yeah!
Some of the comments about love of the medium remind me of the state of genre short fiction in prose. There is astoundingly good work being done in horror, fantasy, and the like...and a lot of it comes out in magazines and anthologies with print runs of dozens to hundreds. No, I'm not exaggerating. Excellent work, that sells entirely and only to people already plugged in and willing to look in the esoteric corners. I have friends who shae my fondness for some of the genres I get works like that for, but who simply find it more hassle than it's worth. And y'know, I agree. I loan them my copies, but I can't argue that they're wrong to put their effort and concern in other places.
I rather expect comics to be going that way, too. At least comics of the sorts that are now in the center of the American publishing biz.
As for the target audience for Marvel and DC's big-ticket stuff, I'll go wtih "immature adults".
But why bother when you can go to a one-legged cyclist bar since there's plenty around?
What Paul's saying isn't hard, y'know. And I'm very much in the "Don't care about mainstream comics" camp. But it doesn't make me fail the basic task of comprehending Paul's very basic statement.
KG
I think I'm going to go out and sleep with a woman now.
This is amazing. Some people trying to tell someone else that he might enjoy a comic book is somehow seen as this mean elitist plot. That's fucking ridiculous. People saying, "Hey, you might like this!" are being fucking villainized.
And anyone that can post on this thread has no right to complain about comic availability. The internet is for more than just bitching about the X-Men.
Can we get an FBR post made of this thread? Because that would be perfect.
I don't think anyone didn't get Paul's point. "I'm bored with superhero comics and that's the only kind of comics I really care about."
We get it.
I think what we're saying is, "Are you sure? Because there's some other good stuff out there we think you'd like."
But, no. Somehow it's the Great Hipster Conspiracy rearing its ugly head again.
After reading this thread, I now realize what Scientologist go through when they try an leave the fold.
Kieron doesn't win, unless there's some sort of contest to make the silliest, broadest reduction.
In no sane world is Paul's preference for a specific kind of superhero comic as broad as a sexual preference. Paul's being the guy who only wants to go out with blonde women under 100 pounds with button noses that have short hair and are smart and cool and like his favorite bands and when he can't find one makes a crack about the bar and notes that five years ago there were tons of women like that here.
We're Paul's friends saying maybe if you left this tiny backroom and visited the rest of the bar and the patio and the pool room you'd find somebody that might interest you, because there are lots of great-looking, friendly, lovely women that go to these rooms. Then when he complains that he's peeked into these rooms and there is a distinct lack of tiny blondes with button noses who like his favorie bands we go, "Okay... maybe you should consider that there are other types of women." When he says, pretty much not for him there aren't, we shrug our shoulders and say maybe he should go home you should go home and play videogames. But Paul, that original crack about this bar? SHUT UP. THIS BAR IS GREAT.
No you don't, Andrew. You realize what a sci-fi book reader feels like when he says, "I'm bored with sci-fi books and I don't want to try anything else."
"Somehow it's the Great Hipster Conspiracy rearing its ugly head again."
Be fair, it is one ugly head.
And his peers keep telling him, "Try some Harlequin romances or some New Age self help books" over and over again, Joe.
Where is this bar?
Er, no, Andrew, they don't. Not a single person here has recommended one specific genre or type of book. You may feel that asking someone to look beyond cape books is a huge imposition, but it isn't.
Hell, the super comics I enjoy, I actually enjoy MORE since I started reading other shit years ago. Save your energy for the good stuff of any type of comics, and for good films, and for good poetry, and for good bands. BUT NOT FOR GOOD NOVELS. NOVELS CAN ROT IN HELL.
I think you can appreciate the true futility of this thread in two succinct points:
1. Paul bought the entirety of the Chuck Austen X-Men run.
2. Paul's definition of "comics" and John Byrne's are practically identical.
Nuff said.
"It's easy to GET indie comics, yes, but only as long as you're prepared to order them sight unseen."
That's not really true, either. There's a raftload of non-superhero comics available at bookstores now. It's easier for a lot of people people to find a copy of Persepolis than a copy of New Avengers.
Tom, get me another Long Island Iced Tea while you're up, will you?
Tom: So in your analogy, you're criticizing Paul for knowing exactly what he wants and not settling for less? Um...okay.
And I'd say his preference is a bit more broad than you've narrowed it down to. If anything, the correct analogue would be skinny blondes w/ breast implants, in which case, I totally understand why he's bored but I still don't fault him for his tastes. Because, you know, there his.
"In no sane world is Paul's preference for a specific kind of superhero comic as broad as a sexual preference"
It's observations like this which have made you the most feted comics journalist in the world, Tom.
KG
We're not FAULTING him for his tastes. Why is it, in comics, that whenever you recommend something, "Hey, I think you might enjoy this," it becomes something for the recommendee to be defensive about?
"WHAT DO YOU MEAN I MIGHT LIKE THIS?! WHAT'S WRONG WITH WHAT I ALREADY LIKE?!?"
Nothing. Nothing's wrong with liking what you like. But when people repeatedly tell you, "I bet you'd get a kick out of this, too!" it's silly to dismiss it.
"2. Paul's definition of "comics" and John Byrne's are practically identical."
That's a ridiculously stupid thing to say, Alan. The definition of "comics" is not in issue here. The question is whether I want to read them.
Yes, except there is offering advice and there is nagging.
I've discovered that there are a few topics of conversation to avoid (my atheism, my vegetarianism) because no matter how many qualifiers I pile on, the other parties act as if I've tossed down some sort of gauntlet and have made a high-handed judgement regarding their tastes.
I can say "animal protein gives me the shits something fierce" until I'm blue in the face, but it's a lock that I'm going to have to listen to few dozen suggestions/analogies/suppostions that seem to be less about my defective gut, than about the other parties' defensiveness.
But have you tried bacon? You'd love it!
Where is this bar?
Genosha
If it's gone into nagging, I'd say it's because most people were shocked at the original reaction that suggesting other comics got. And I'm not talking about Paul so much here. As soon as people started saying, "Hey, maybe you should try some different comics," the peanut gallery started in with "HEY! LEAVE HIM ALONE! HOW DARE YOU TRY TO TELL HIM ABOUT SOMETHING HE MIGHT ENJOY!"
And thus began the downward spiral portion of this discussion.
The only thing about that movie theater analogy in regards to comics is that it's more appropriate to say that you're lucky if your city has even one movie theater showing art films and then only shows each film for a couple of days at inconvenient times.
As someone who enjoys books like Street Angel and Dead West, the sheer difficulty of actually getting them is burning me out.
Personally, I also find it too hard to find the time track down individual issues of cool indie comics. Just as I don't have the time to watch cool indie movies playing in theatres that are too far off and playing at inconvenient times. Thankfully it's a lot easier to rent DVD's of the indie movies and easier pick up trades of cool indie comics. Sure I have to wait sometimes a year later for the movie and comic to be released on DVD and trade, but generally both are well worth it.
We're not FAULTING him for his tastes.
You may not be, but others, particularly ADD are.
I suppose it's not too far off of an argument to recommend other comics outside of a specific genre, based on the idea that distinct formal and technical considerations are what made comics the ideal medium for the realization of an imaginary world of super-hero fiction, but we should remember that genre and medium are not interchangable, and respect the
look, I'm a midwestern presbyterian aquarius and cannot be held responsible if I can't make a strong statement or commit to one side of an argument.
oh, and-- boredom is a sign of stress.
You may not be, but others, particularly ADD are.
I'm not Alan, of course, but I think Alan is faulting him for being so stubborn about not trying other things he'd enjoy, not so much his actual tastes.
"oh, and-- boredom is a sign of stress."
Which is why I am looking forward to my holiday.
Hey, if you like comics, but don't like the ones you're reading, try some others. If you don't want to try some others, go watch a movie. Fine by me. Me, I like comics, and I like reading writing by other people who like comics. Like Tom, here, or Joe Rice, over there at the bar hitting on the one-legged blonde with the upturned nose. Who I am pretty sure is actually a guy.
Hooray for holidays!
This we can all agree on. Except for Guy.
And, in fact, I *have* booked the next couple of weeks off work to spend watching more-or-less randomly selected shows from the Fringe and the Edinburgh Film Festival.
Joss Whedon's Serenity is making it's world premiere at the Edinburgh Film Festival. I think most of the tickets have sold out but I think additional showings have been added to which you can get tickets to.
Meanwhile, Dark Horse is currently releasing a Serenity mini-series plotted by Joss Whedon that takes place before the movie.
Not that this adds much to the thread, just felt like pointing out the comic book connection to the Edinburgh Film Festival. 
Ha!
The whole article I was like, well, what about Seven Soldiers and there it is in the closer.
In some Newsarama article feedback I posited the idea of Comics Tenure and I think that's what's sucking the life out of a lot of superhero comics. It's not about what stories Bendis can tell, it's how many. Once you crack the top ten, you're basically given free reign.
And yeah, anyone whose ever read X-Axis knows that Paul's range goes beyond the mutants every week. The man reviewed Cerebus in INDIVIDUAL ISSUES. Step to THAT.
If it's a guy, then it's not really cheating!
SERENITY has had four showings scheduled, every single one of which sold out within half an hour of tickets going on sale (I'm told). As did the Joss Whedon interview.
But I don't care - I'm going to see Stewart Lee.
I was gonna go to see Serenity but the guy at the ticketcounter told me a ticket was $60. My brother showed him my name in this thread and said "Does he look familiar to you?" The guy still tried to gouge me. So I settled with watching Two Guys and a Girl on Oxygen.
No, I'm not faulting Paul for his taste or adherence to it, not in my analogy and not in real life. I might question it for the sake of friendly conversation, but deep down, I don't care what comics people read or if they don't read comics at all.
I just want to make it clear that I think this is a really, really interesting time for comics overall and also comics news, really, and I think when we get into that kind of judgment we need to step away from our own personal tastes a bit. Paul may have been clear where he was coming from deep in the essay, but the overall effect is to conflate a certain kind of comic with either the entirety or at least the heart of all of comics, which I don't think is the best way to look at it.
"Hooray for holidays!
This we can all agree on."
I thought I heard Neil say that he hates Christmas.
"The overall effect is to conflate a certain kind of comic with either the entirety or at least the heart of all of comics, which I don't think is the best way to look at it."
But certainly any cogent observer will note with distress that that is pretty much John Byrne's definition, too.
"I don't think anyone didn't get Paul's point. "I'm bored with superhero comics and that's the only kind of comics I really care about.""
You don't get Paul's point. He isn't bored with superhero comics. He's bored with the state of superhero comics in 2005. It's not a small distinction.
Maybe he should suspend his column until 2006, then. I'm sure by then Marvel and DC won't suck.
[ I thought I heard Neil say that he hates Christmas.]
Bah, humbug.
I'm bored with this comments thread.
Really? It's far more entertaining than most of the comics I've read lately.
On that we can all agree!
The only reason there's so many posts on this thread is that there's nothing else worth discussing in comics right now.
Or you could just stop reading comics for a while. It's not the end of the world. I mean, hell, they're just comic books.
Personally, at the moment I'm only really enjoying girls' manga from the 1970s, so I understand how you can get into these genre ruts.
hrrmmm.... you know, Paul, if you're bored with but don't want to give up on superhero comics, and you don't want to dive into manga, you could always try reading superhero comics right to left.
couldn't hoit.
what is this "manga"?
"you could always try reading superhero comics right to left."
I hear Secret Wars II makes better sense that way.
My two most eagerly awaited 2005 comic book related releases are Absolute Watchmen and The Complete Calvin and Hobbes.
Nuff said.
Holidays suck. They're stressful, and I always need a vacation when they're over.
Apparently Graeme's bored with comics, too, judging from the lightness of today's output!
"I don't think you have to be a "hardcore enthusiast" to love a medium."
No, but you have to be a hardcore enthusiast to love a medium regardless of the actual content.
I'm sorry, but if I voice my disappointment with the current state of British comedy, the suggestion that there's good Japanese comedy, or good American action films, or great documentaries about French cuisine is not going to be of much help to me. Yes, I know there are great films in other genres and from other parts of the world. But, you see, that doesn't really address my problem, which is that I Want People to Make Better British Comedies.
Similarly, from Paul's column, it seems pretty clear and straightforward to me that what he wants are better North American mainstream comics. The ideal solution to that problem is just as straightforward: Make better North American mainstream comics.
Anything else misses the point, really.
wow
"The ideal solution to that problem is just as straightforward: Make better North American mainstream comics."
They have, they just don't have superheroes in them. e.g., Fantagraphics and Drawn and Quarterly.
Nobody misses the point; it's just a silly point.
But certainly any cogent observer will note with distress that that is pretty much John Byrne's definition, too.
Equating Paul's definition of good enjoyable comics to a racist moron like John Byrne, even if they have the same the preferences in comics, is just bad taste. If we were to find someone who shared the same views in superhero comics as ADD or Joe Rice that were bigots and point out their comparing tastes, would that really be fair?
I like Paul's site and I admire the courage it takes to perform such a task that the X-Axis provides. But to say that he doesn't read or enjoy indie comics is just ignorant and shows how little you know of his website. If he was in love with them like some of the posters here, it would probably be called Indie-Axis, but its not. When I read Paul's statement about his boredeom, I take that to include both mainstream and indie comics. But that's because I actually read his site.
But he says he mostly meant mainstream comics.
Everyone's acting as if I can just walk into Barnes and Noble and find a copy of Berlin or Smoke. I can't. Nor can I find them in any of the comic shops in the medium-sized Southern metropolis of Raleigh, NC (and these aren't all Android's Dungeon-type stores) A city that has three movie theaters for independent film , four or five music venues for indie music, and three independent record stores within thirty minutes drive from my house. Why do I want to order a couple of months in advance and pay shipping and handling to khepri.com (no offense to them) to get a couple of trades, when I can buy the new Dirtbombs double album in 35 minutes for a little less?
And if I claim that I didn't like the new Dirtbombs album, I won't get a million people telling me I should be listening to Godspeed You, Black Emperor b/c they're TEAM MUSIC!
I understand where Paul and Alan are coming from in the argument.
Paul is looking for a reason to stay a reader of comics at all. He feels that the art form is lacking even in the most basic visceral childlike thrill. Igrin like a retard when a new issue of Astonishing x Men comes out.
Alan is pushing the notion that there are good comics that do not have superheroes in them. I like Alan get excited whenever a new issue of Love and Rockets ships.
Both points are valid and here is the issue. Waht paul is stating is that for him comics no longer matter to him. It still does for Alan because he has learned to try and find something new.
The answer is that everyone needs to takea break from comics if for no other reason than it gives you perspective.
And if I claim that I didn't like the new Dirtbombs album, I won't get a million people telling me I should be listening to Godspeed You, Black Emperor b/c they're TEAM MUSIC!
But if you said, "I don't like the new Dirtbombs album, or any of the other new Dirtbombs-ish albums, so I'm going to give up on music," I bet someone would say, "Hey, maybe that's a little hasty. You should try the Mooney Suzuki."
I like Paul's site and I admire the courage it takes to perform such a task that the X-Axis provides. While I admit that many of the X books are not paragons of quality comics, I'm not sure that it takes courage to write reviews of comic books, does it?
Papercits fucking HURT, man.
Dammit. That's what I get for typing onehanded while waiting for damn T-Mobile people.
"I'm not sure that it takes courage to write reviews of comic books, does it?"
In this case, I think Paul needs the courage -- or the good sense -- to just stop.
"As someone who enjoys books like Street Angel and Dead West, the sheer difficulty of actually getting them is burning me out."
Admittedly, I'm lucky to live in a town with a couple of excellent comic shops, but "Street Angel," "Dead West," "Berlin," and a lot of the other books mentioned on this thread as being examples of books difficult to find can simply be ordered from Amazon. Often at a discount, no tax charged, and with free shipping.
And I understand not wanting to order something blind, but a lot of the more well known books on Amazon ("Berlin" for example) allow you to "look inside." And for lesser known books, the publisher's almost always have samples up on their web site.
This isn't a statement for or against certain kinds of comics (or an endorsement of Amazon), mind you. It's just that if I've stumbled across a book that sounds interesting to me, I really haven't found it that difficult to get more information and place an order in this day and age of Google.
observations:
1)A columnist writing a column about having nothing to write about is hardly new territory, yet Paul seems to have SUNDERED FANBOY RAMPAGE INTO EQUAL FRACTIONS.
2) That was only the fourth all caps statement in the thread (and one was from Tom!). What? Is Kirk sleeping in the next room?
3) Somewhere, in his bunker or his pleasure dome, JMS is laughing.
Why do I want to order a couple of months in advance and pay shipping and handling to khepri.com (no offense to them) to get a couple of trades...
Or you could just wait until they come out and order them from amazon or instocktrades.com or a number of other places. And if you order over $25 or so, shippings free. And you'll get the books in a couple of days, not months. Yeah, it's not ideal, but it's not onerous either. That's the cool thing about TPBs, they don't go stale after a couple of weeks.
ADD and Paul need to exchange *HUGZ*
See now this is what happens when I leave you people alone for four measly hours. THEY'RE JUST COMIC BOOKS!
Here's the truth: 90% of ALL comics are boring crap. I don't care if they're indie or corporate, they're still BORE-ING. Yeah I'm talking about your stuff ADD. If you're going to be a pretentious hack why don't you take it to an art museum?
All of this snobbish "try THESE comics" attitudes going around is counterproductive to what the real problem the industry is: the status quo. There shouldn't be one. Long term comics fans and by proxy the writers and the characters have all been stagnated in their growth because everybody refuses to tell organic stories in which characters truly grow. And if they DO bring in change it has to be HUGE friggin' events ala CRISIS.
Paul I see what you're saying in your essay and it makes sense. All House of M is going to do is backtrack the mutant population and create a new status quo to wallow in. At some point you get sick of big events and shallow stories and you need real growth in the characters YOU care about. Now if you like indie junk that's fine. If you like Marvel/DC that's great. But you have your own thing and you don't want to have to abandon characters when instead what you really want is growth on their part.
Now does this really require a ten billion post argument? I mean shoot the internet is cracking more because Paul's bored than anything Marvel pats itself on the back for. Sheesh.
Remember when this used to be fun?
Jake Wrote:
A columnist writing a column about having nothing to write about is hardly new territory, yet Paul seems to have SUNDERED FANBOY RAMPAGE INTO EQUAL FRACTIONS.
I posit:
Paul now has his new column written for him!
Maybe he should suspend his column until 2006, then. I'm sure by then Marvel and DC won't suck.
Honestly, if all mainstream comics suck, why do you buy any of them? I always operated on the stop-buying-comics-when-I-stop-enjoying-them school of thought myself, but aren't you still buying THE ULTIMATES?
I say everyone should buy whatever s/he wants. That doesn't mean others can't suggest other comics, but, shit, in the end it doesn't matter to me if Paul digs X-MEN comics or not, you know? It's just not something worth getting worked up about.
Buying any sort of specialized anything is a chore, including X-Men comics, until you gain the skills and perspective necessary to do so.
God help me if I had to find a Dirtbombs album.
While I admit that many of the X books are not paragons of quality comics, I'm not sure that it takes courage to write reviews of comic books, does it?
Yeah, you missed the point of my statement.
"Honestly, if all mainstream comics suck, why do you buy any of them? I always operated on the stop-buying-comics-when-I-stop-enjoying-them school of thought myself, but aren't you still buying THE ULTIMATES?"
Paul's the one who's distressed by the "mainstream," Ed, not me. I merely laugh and point at it.
Sure, I read THE ULTIMATES, and CAPTAIN AMERICA, too. And maybe two or three other superhero titles. And I spend probably $300.00 a month on comics, so, clearly, I am not bored with comics. I just have been around long enough to know what I like, and don't mind doing the slight bit of work to bring them into my possession.
Good god, you've all turned into K-Box and Jesse Baker. Over 100 posts on this? Geez!
See now this is what happens when I leave you people alone for four measly hours. THEY'RE JUST COMIC BOOKS!
And they're "just" paintings and "just" movies and "just" books and "just" theater. What's your point? People discuss these media, why not comics?
Here's the truth: 90% of ALL comics are boring crap. I don't care if they're indie or corporate, they're still BORE-ING.
Yeah, most of everything is bad. That doesn't mean you discount the good, whether it's Eightball or Seven Soldiers.
Yeah I'm talking about your stuff ADD. If you're going to be a pretentious hack why don't you take it to an art museum?
Uh, good one. Your point, I guess, is that Alan's a big mean snob for suggesting that some people might enjoy some comics?
All of this snobbish "try THESE comics" attitudes going around
I still can't wrap my head around how saying, "Hey, try this, it's good!" is in any way snobbish. When people tell me a movie was great I don't think, "YOU ELITIST JERK!" I'm happy to get the recommendation, even if I think it's one I won't care for.
is counterproductive to what the real problem the industry is: the status quo. There shouldn't be one. Long term comics fans and by proxy the writers and the characters have all been stagnated in their growth because everybody refuses to tell organic stories in which characters truly grow. And if they DO bring in change it has to be HUGE friggin' events ala CRISIS.
Maybe that's part of the problem with mainstream comics. But that's just one kind of comic, and not even all mainstream books suffer from it.
Now if you like indie junk that's fine. If you like Marvel/DC that's great.
I'd agree, except for calling it "junk."
But you have your own thing and you don't want to have to abandon characters when instead what you really want is growth on their part.
Um, OK. I don't really see anyone asking for the Transformers or whatever to grow up and change with us. Maybe some of these children's characters should still be accessible to kids. That's a whole other arguement there, though. Just trying to understand what you're talking about here.
Remember when this used to be fun?
I dunno, Tuck. Comics still are fun as hell to me. If you don't think so, read Tales Designed to Thrizzle. I dare you not to have fun reading that.
And that's not being snobby, that's telling someone about something fun. In most places, that's considered a good thing.
"But you have your own thing and you don't want to have to abandon characters when instead what you really want is growth on their part."
Yeah, why hasn't Lucy Van Pelt learned to drive yet? I am bored with Peanuts!
FANBOY RAMPAGE!!!
I enjoyed the Spider-Clone Saga.
Comics still are fun as hell to me. If you don't think so, read Tales Designed to Thrizzle. I dare you not to have fun reading that.
Tales Designed to Thrizzle? I'm not reading that pretentious ironical comical book made by somebody who obviously hates America and our culture!
"I enjoyed the Spider-Clone Saga."
Me too, parts of it, anyway, and of course THE LIFE OF REILLY at Comic Book Galaxy made it all worth while.
"Alan is pushing the notion that there are good comics that do not have superheroes in them."
Actually, it sounds to me like he's pushing the notion that there are NO good comics WITH superheroes in them, there never were, there never will be, and anyone who's waiting for them is an idiot, ha ha, and by the way I have a very open mind.
Then again, I'm delerious with hunger.
150 POSTS! JESUS FUCK ON A CRUTCH!
Pretty delirious, Michael, especially when Alan's mentioned several superhero comics he likes in this very comment thread.
No one is trying to take away anyone's precious superhero comics. Some people are just saying, "Hey, you might enjoy this, too!" That's not elitism, that's not snobbery, that's called being helpful.
>> I still can't wrap my head around how saying, "Hey, try this, it's good!" is in any way snobbish.>>
It depends on whether it's coupled with, "That stuff you read sucks, and if you had courage and taste, you'd abandon it; you're way too smart to do like you do rather than like I do." And, likely, the assumption that because Paul says he focuses on the mainstream, he therefore only reads superhero comics.
That strikes me as both snobbish and condescending.
Recent X-Axis reviews have covered or mentioned NIGHT MARY, SEA OF RED, Y THE LAST MAN, DEAD EYES OPEN, OCEAN, QUEEN & COUNTRY, SMOKE, FABLES, EMO BOY and others. To make the leap from him writing a review column that focuses on X-books and a column that says he's primarily interested in the mainstream to the idea that he must therefore nothing but Marvel/DC superstuff, and basing "advice" on the latter assumption instantly suggests that the person responding is pigeonholing Paul inaccurately, and that his advice may therefore be of limited use.
I don't have any particular advice for Paul, because I don't really think that there's something that needs to be fixed about his life if he doesn't think this is a banner year for comics.
Except, of course, that if he only read CONAN regularly, he'd have an entirely different view of things.
kdb
I'm bored with the peeled lemons half of you uptight nerds clearly have up your asses, so I'm done eating all types of fruit.
No one is trying to take away anyone's precious superhero comics.
Actually, I've tried that approach before.
But I'm a jerk and am no way representative of the body of indie comics snobs. I'd be a jerk no matter what comics I like.
It depends on whether it's coupled with, "That stuff you read sucks, and if you had courage and taste, you'd abandon it; you're way too smart to do like you do rather than like I do." And, likely, the assumption that because Paul says he focuses on the mainstream, he therefore only reads superhero comics.
Kurt, I can't speak for everyone, but that's not what I've been saying at all. At this point, I don't care WHAT Paul reads, it's clearly up to him. I continue to post because I don't get the reaction that erupted when some folks suggested he try some other comics.
I think there's a tendency to read into suggestions for non-mainstream work. Man, I love me some Invincible, some Runaways, some Captain America . . .this is undoubtedly mainstream stuff. I've never made a comment that there was anything inherently wrong with mainstream comics. I think most of them are bad, but I agree that most indie comics are bad, too. But if you read good mainstream comics and good indie comics, you at least double the amount of fun, good comics you can read.
I don't know if I've come off as condescending towards mainstream books or Paul, but I certainly haven't meant to do so.
It's also confusing when the peanut gallery takes two opposing stances: a) Paul doesn't like indie comics, leave him a lone; and b) Paul already reads indie comics, don't condescend to him!
So if he has no problem with indie comics, what was the outrage with suggesting more indie comics?
But I'm a jerk and am no way representative of the body of indie comics snobs. I'd be a jerk no matter what comics I like.
This is true. Those cute dalmations? Cunard keeps them around for kicking practice.
I like pie.
Ahm, not sure if its relevant, but: there actually are good superhero comics being made out there...
My friend Mark's book Grounded is a perfectly nice book. I like that Rick Remender book Strange Girl. I pick up Invincible on rare occasion and am typically satisfied. I think the Brubaker Captain America's a bit crap, really, but friends seem to like it and its better than some stuff, at lesat. I liked that Luna Brothers book, Ultra, some-- wasn't perfect but it had its moments. I hear nice things about various Brian Vaughn books though I'm not a fan-- Runaways or Mayor Man or whatever. Alan Moore just did some Top Ten book that's supposed to be quite good. Warren Ellis has some new team book coming out-- i think Boom Boom is in it...? She dated the Beyonder...Mike Hawthorne draws some Marvel book I haven't seen yet, Machine Ma-teen or something, but... I like Mike Hawthorne; he draws good.
I'm not really all that excited by superhero books anymore, but ... you don't have to immediately jump to: "I give up superhero comics so I can read about a young girl's experiences growing up in Iran"... if you don't want to read them, don't, whatever... i certainly agree that they've goten worse the last couple years (and not because they should be exclusively for kids, just in terms of craft).
but... they still seem to make some nice enough ones...
Top Ten: The 49ers was indeed, as Chris Butcher noted, the best graphic novel of the year to date. Hard to think it will be outpaced by anything.
So for all you idiots who continue to pretend that I don't like superheroes, there it is: My favourite graphic novel of the year so far has nothing BUT the bloody things in it.
And second place is Street Angel, so, you guys are seriously coughing up blood.
>> Kurt, I can't speak for everyone, but that's not what I've been saying at all.>>
No, I pulled that all from Alan's responses. Your posts was that you couldn't understand why anyone would find the suggestions being made snobbish, not merely yours.
You did manage to weigh in with, "I'd be bored, too, if all [I] read was mainstream superstuff," which seems to jump on the "all you must read is mainstream superstuff" train, but you never took it as far as Alan, who manages to combine blanket dismissals of corporate comics with hot insistences that he likes Ultimates, so anyone who thinks he's anti-Marvel and DC just because he makes sweeping dismissals of them is -- wait, where was I again?
>> It's also confusing when the peanut gallery takes two opposing stances: a) Paul doesn't like indie comics, leave him a lone; and b) Paul already reads indie comics, don't condescend to him! >>
The peanut gallery -- of which, let's face it, you're a part, too -- doesn't necessarily agree with each other or make all the same assumptions.
>> So if he has no problem with indie comics, what was the outrage with suggesting more indie comics? >>
I dunno -- I don't really see a lot of outrage against the idea of suggesting indy comics, other than in your exaggerated paraphrases, which I assumed were for effect, not because you think anyone was actually saying that stuff.
If there's been a backlash, I think it's been to the other stuff, the "either you love comics or you don't" stuff, the "you're too smart for that crap" stuff and so on. Paul's irritation, to the extent it's been expressed at all, is with the idea that some of the people trying to fix his reading habits don't seem to have read or understood what he was saying, not with the idea that he might like other comics than Marvel and DC stuff.
He's expressed some reservations toward indy stuff on the grounds that he finds it inconvenient to track down and/or order stuff blind, but that's a long way from outrage.
kdb
Mayor Man made me LOL
Also, what is the record for most comments for a post in FBR?
It's a tangent - in this thread which has so far kept such wonderful focus! - but has anyone actually said that ADD doesn't like superheroes? I know that he keeps saying that he does, and that's lovely, but I'm trying to find someone who's argued the opposite viewpoint.
Not that I'm against anyone seriously coughing up blood, mind. I'm just wondering who those people are.
what is the record for most comments for a post in FBR?
I'm sure one of the Bendis Board invasions ran around 300+ posts.
Joe honestly I wasn't talking to or about you. You're being helpful. I'm just sick of certain people's attitude that the problem is with what you're reading and partially I was responding to what ADD told me WAY back at the start of this thread. Which was (paraphrase): I don't care if he was writing about comics news, his REAL problem is that he's reading crap! Sorry I didn't really mean to call all indie stuff crap. I was just pissed.
I do think this whole thread is ludicrous though and that what Paul really needs is to see the X-Men mature and start developing fresh characters while exploring the concept of the next part of life. That doesn't have to be boring. That's a whole different discussion though. We just need to stop arguing about it all.
I totally need to start reading Conan.
The funny thing is, I actually am coughing up blood today, but that's more to do with this nasty sickness I've got, rather than this comments thread.
So, Graeme, at least one person is coughing up blood and other things he probably shouldn't be coughing up.
"I'm sure one of the Bendis Board invasions ran around 300+ posts."
Yes, but this one likely wins for the most posts per capita.
Kurt and the gang's Conan is very good.
Funny, I was just thinking about how I got back into superhero comics in the mid-'90s...it was Kurt and George Perez's AVENGERS. Seems like there were a lot of good superhero comics around that time. Marvel and DC knew to put talented people on their top books. I wonder where it all went wrong.
I bet Tom knows.
My god, the Paul O'Brien has done what the Bendis could not, and that is to Cracked the Internets into Halfs! And inside is something more sickly than the interior of a Cadbury Creme Egg!
GIVEN HIS AWESOME POWERS IS HE STILL THE BORED?
'Sides, everyone knows that Fanboy Rampage was the big event in comics in 2005, which is kind of happy and sad all at once, like eating one of the aforementioned Cadbury Creme Eggs in your underwear.*
Absolutely Disgusting, Has No Connection to Discussion
http://www.cadbury.co.uk/EN/CTB2...ries/creme_egg/
*NOTE: If you don't like the idea of eating Cadbury Creme Eggs in your underwear, try one of the following instead--
(a) without a shirt on.
(b) while downloading comics and saying, "Arr arr mee hearties!" like a pirate.
(c) while talking to your house plants about the Indy 500.
(d) while licking a photo of kurt busiek.
See, when all you good people recommend more quality comics for Paul to read, he can't get the x-axis reviews up on time.
fuckers.
The peanut gallery -- of which, let's face it, you're a part, too -- doesn't necessarily agree with each other or make all the same assumptions.
Can they work on that? I'd really find it easier to argue if everyone else held a single line without variation. Please?
I could be bringing my own stuff into this, too. I, for one, am really tired of being put down as a hipster or elitist because I read stuff in addition to superhero stuff I like. Not many people on this thread have put off that vibe, but a few have and it's really irritating.
Yeah, Alan dismisses mainstream comics as a whole, and, yeah, I do, too. So does Paul, that was his whole point. I doubt there's anyone here that thinks that mainstream comics as a whole are really amazing right now. There's standout work, just like there's always been. In fact, there's probably just as much quality mainstream stuff now as just about any other time that Stan and Jack aren't working together.
When someone who reads only superhero comics says, "Man, mainstream comics are sucking lately," it's OK. But if someone who reads mainstream and indie stuff says it, it becomes an issue. Is it a kind of "Yeah, my brother's an idiot, but he's MY idiot," thing where only insiders can criticize something? (Not that Kurt is saying this, I'm kind of just stream of consciousness posting by this point, obviously.)
Here's how I perceive what happened:
1. Paul says he's bored.
2. Some people say, yeah, that sucks, maybe try this.
3. Others then say, "Hey, leave him alone and let him read what he wants."
Here's where it all broke down. I don't think anyone wants to choose Paul's books for him. People want him to enjoy himself. To some that meant leaving him alone. To some it meant suggesting other comics he might find less boring. Or other media.
Then the discussion broke down into fractal arguements and I'm not even sure what half of them about.
Except hat Higgins guy hates pie, that I know.
Paul last posted three hours ago. My guess is he's watching all of this and having a good laugh about how he's not bored anymore.
Incidentally I totally called the Ultimate's traitor. I think I should get a cookie. LITG.
If Paul is entertained then this has not been in vain.
"Yeah, Alan dismisses mainstream comics as a whole, and, yeah, I do, too. So does Paul, that was his whole point."
I thought his point was that the corporate comics companies should adjust their American children's line of comics to better suit his needs as a 30-something man from Scotland.
I am of the Cashew Gallery.
Kurt Busiek wins. Also, some comic recommendations for Paul: Knights of the Dinner Table, Ichi The Killer and Love Hina. Oh, and Conan of course.
I'm opening fanboy rampage rampage and rampaging this... uh... rampage.
Seriously guys, I stopped reading at post 120. Shouldn't this be the kind of nonsense we make fun of other boards for?
Graeme:
"has anyone actually said that ADD doesn't like superheroes?"
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...5257081/
#321738
"[i]t sounds to me like he's pushing the notion that there are NO good comics WITH superheroes in them, there never were, there never will be, and anyone who's waiting for them is an idiot, ha ha, and by the way I have a very open mind." -"Michael"
I only like mainstream pie.
>> Here's how I perceive what happened:
1. Paul says he's bored.
2. Some people say, yeah, that sucks, maybe try this.
3. Others then say, "Hey, leave him alone and let him read what he wants.">>
I honestly think you're missing a large part of what gave the discussion the tone it did by boiling down point 2 to "Yeah, that sucks, maybe try this."
The thread was pretty solidly entrenched in "they're all Michael Bay movies" and "so it's Marvel or nothing, huh" early on.
Subtract that sort of thing, and you need to subtract the reaction to it, too, and the outline becomes something more like:
1. Paul says he's bored.
2. Some people say, yeah, that sucks, maybe try this.
3. Paul says, "Not really what I was saying, and I kinda covered that."
4. And the rest...is Rampage.
I don't think you can effectively address the guys who were saying, essentially, "Hey, leave him alone" without acknowledging the guys who were saying. "You should stop reading the crap you're reading" that spurred such reactions.
As Paul noted:
"And yes, of course there's always a number of decent indie books. You can say that every year. That can be taken for granted."
Either way, there's nothing particularly wrong with suggesting that anyone try new things, nor is there anything wrong with someone saying they'd rather not, thanks. Particularly when there's a disconnect between what one group thinks constitutes "new things" and what that first guy has already been trying.
kdb
I will certainly admit, however, that ADD's (let's put this euphemistically) *fondness for robust debate* invites this sort of mischaracterization of his actual viewpoint.
Man, I want Kurt Busiek to hand me my hat one of these days!
(BTW, Kurt, Conan made Buzzscope's
"I totally need to start reading Conan."
-- Tuckenie
"Kurt and the gang's Conan is very good.:
-- Alan Doane
"Also, some comic recommendations for Paul: ... Oh, and Conan of course."
-- Håkan S
See? SEE?!
It will solve all your ills and bring enlightenment to you like a village of gurus! With swords.
kdb
People, focus already! Let's get back to trying to change people's tastes by shouting at them a lot, like you're supposed to!
Huh. I guess I really just didn't see that sort of thing from the posts. It could be because I know Alan, and know that he likes some superhero stuff. Clearly, I guess it comes off that way to some folks, but it didn't to me.
And that's why this thread confused me. I didn't really see much offensive in the suggestion posts.
If people as disparate as Tuck and Alan can agree on Conan, though, I'll be giving it a shot.
Wait, Alan was banned from this thread? What the hell for?
I could be bringing my own stuff into this, too. I, for one, am really tired of being put down as a hipster or elitist because I read stuff in addition to superhero stuff I like.
I think people get that vibe when you say things like "Listen, if you don't go buy Tales Designed to Thrizzle and Zatanna, you're a shitty comic book fan and no one likes you" but I may be wrong.
Spencer, if anyone could possibly take that statement seriously, they deserve to take it seriously.
Spencer, if anyone could possibly take that statement seriously, they deserve to take it seriously.
Its obviously sarcasm, which is one of the reasons I like your blog so much, but don't be surprised when people misconstrue it as being "elitist."
Hey, glad you like it.
But, seriously, I WOULD be surprised if someone took it seriously. I've got more faith in my fellow readers.
That should have been Buzzscope's Buzzworthy 2005:
http://www.buzzscope.com/feature...res.php?
id=1086
Too Rampagey for Fanboy Rampage, I guess, Joe.
And just so you know, Joe, I was never calling anyone out on elitism. I was just empathizing with Paul being bored and burned out.
Elitists never get burned out. They get negative!
And now, comic-readers come back together as a family. A family that, like any other, usually doesn't like each other all that much.
Ok, for those of you who have dealt with him in the past, why are you trying to have a civil conversation with Alan David Doane? Haven't you learned by now?
Hey, I like everyone. But I like trying (and failing) to be a smartass more.
Back to the sex analogy (wherein "sex" = "comics") because that's the only part of this debate that makes sense to me. Shurely, (metaphor on) Paul got bored with sex with his partner of twenty years and said "sex is dull" and loads of people said stuff like "well have you tried dressing up*/swinging/dogging/with the light on?".
Paul merely wants to be faithful to his currently estranged lover whilst everyone wants to prove what exciting sex lives they have.
(*he's a superhero fan, OF COURSE he's tried dressing up)
kdb sez: "[Conan] will solve all your ills and bring enlightenment to you like a village of gurus! With swords."
And it has dinosaurs, ninjas, cowboys, zombies, hot women, mutants, or Bruce Timm art in it, depending on which of those things you want in your comics!
And it gets your teeth whiter and your breath fresher! Would that the same could be said for Conan, but he is a barbarian after all.
But the REAL debate, and the one that deserves 150+ posts an a sundered in twain Internet is: should I buy Conan in trades or in single-issues?
WHICH IS IT??!??!?
(And it really did have Bruce Timm art in it in #18. Just so's you know.)
Yes, I am wildly known for my incivility, bordering on rampagey-ness. GRR, fear me!!!
AHHHHH SCARY!
And so ends the Battle for Paul O'Brien's Soul.
Well I for one think we've all grown from this. Except for ADD. He seems to devolved. And it only took 200 posts to do it too! So let's all relax and BBQ the new DC solits shall we?
AHHH ALSO SCARY!
And so ends the Battle for Paul O'Brien's Soul.
By Battle Pope, no less.
>> But the REAL debate, and the one that deserves 150+ posts an a sundered in twain Internet is: should I buy Conan in trades or in single-issues? >>
Yes.
Or in hardcover, we ain't picky.
kdb
Without naming the names of the comics involved (because I don't want to get people debating specific titles), I gotta say I'm pretty pumped about reading comics right now. There's terrific stuff coming out from at least 10 different publishers over the next couple of months, everyone's backlist keeps getting better and better and I have a stack of TPBs/graphic novels two feet high I have yet to read. Comic rock.
John
Oh yeah, I will mention one comic by name. That Conan comic is terrific.
Conan is terrific. True Porn 2, which I am reading right now, is mind-blowingly terrific, just like the first volume. Super-F*ckers was wonderful. The 49ers was transcendent. Jesus, there are just so many good comics out right now; what a good time this is to be a comics reader.
Maybe a lot of the people who "don't get what Paul is saying," are just in awe that anyone could willfully pass up the fabulous bounty of comics that's out there. I personally find it depressing that someone as obviously intelligent as Paul would choose to eschew such works of diversity, quality, and depth.
But like I said, maybe DC and Marvel won't suck next year, and if that's the case, I'll be right there in line with paul to buy the good ones.
How is True Porn 2 vs True Porn 1? I was underwhelmed by the first go 'round and didn't pick up True Porn 2.
"Except hat Higgins guy hates pie, that I know."
Right.
...wait...
Then when he complains that he's peeked into these rooms and there is a distinct lack of tiny blondes with button noses who like his favorie bands we go, "Okay... maybe you should consider that there are other types of women." When he says, pretty much not for him there aren't, we shrug our shoulders and say maybe he should go home you should go home and play videogames.
Yep. This whole discussion is not a reaction to Paul's tastes.... it's a reaction to the incredulousness first expressed by Paul, and later backed up by others, that anyone would dare suggest an alternative. Paul wants to quit comics, fine... but why is it somehow insular or myopic or whatever to suggest that whatever his tastes are now, they could broaden? I hope I never come to believe that I am so complete that it is absurd to suggest there is anything worthwhile beyond my current interests.
No kidding folks. There is so much great stuff going on. Sure, there's some yuck, and there always will be. But the great stuff is what you pay attention to if you want to be happy.
Higgins: BUSTED!
The answer is that everyone needs to takea break from comics if for no other reason than it gives you perspective.
I would agree on that. Come to think of it, I had this same discussion when I was 15 years old.... but I was on the other side of it. My retailer desperately tried to convince me there were comics other than Marvel worth reading, but I wouldn't have it, and I eventually got fed up with Onslaught, and Heroes Reborn, and the Clone Saga, and all the rest, to the point where I dropped out of comics entirely. I didn't return till 2000, when I started reading Usenet, and realized, hey, there are indeed other comics worth reading. So maybe Paul just needs his exodus for a bit.
John,
True Porn 2 is wonderful so far, although I liked Vol. 1, too, so you might not want to take my word for it.
I thought Alan was known for that time he impersonated a comic's pro and nearly lost his job as a result, crazy fucker.
See, we were at a good stopping point, but NOOOOOOO somebody just had to have the last word! Guys, guess what? Paul stopped caring hours ago. He was complaining about the lack of exciting stuff happening in mainstream comics, not dismissing indies. If you would like him to come back and announce that there's nothing exciting going on in indies so you can flame him that's one thing but otherwise CHILL OUT!
Now let's all settle down, read Spider-Man/Human Torch (or Conan) and relax, thinking non overly defensive snobbish thoughts shall we?
Damn, almost to 220 and K-Box hasn't even chimed in yet.
Maybe he should suspend his column until 2006, then. I'm sure by then Marvel and DC won't suck.
Honestly, if all mainstream comics suck, why do you buy any of them?
I really don't think Marvel sucks right now (I can't really speak for DC as I mostly focus on their Vertigo and Wildstorm lines). Off the top of my head, good recent Marvel books include:
Phoenix Endsong
Supreme Power
Madrox
GLA
Spider-Man/Human Torch
She-Hulk
Runaways
Brubaker's Captain America
Giffen/DeMatteis Defenders
So it might be more apt to say Marvel's big events suck, or Marvel's X-line sucks.
How about a final word from Paul to wrap this thread up? Or make it go another 200 posts, either one would be fine.
See, we were at a good stopping point, but NOOOOOOO somebody just had to have the last word!
Hey, it took a while to catch up...
300 by dawn or bust!
>> I thought his point was that the corporate comics companies should adjust their American children's line of comics to better suit his needs as a 30-something man from Scotland.>>
>> This whole discussion is not a reaction to Paul's tastes.... it's a reaction to the incredulousness first expressed by Paul, and later backed up by others, that anyone would dare suggest an alternative. Paul wants to quit comics, fine... but why is it somehow insular or myopic or whatever to suggest that whatever his tastes are now, they could broaden?>>
I don't think either of these is remotely accurate, myself. The first is just an excuse for Alan to take another another one of those shots that he'll later need to follow up with lists of the "corporate children's comics" that suit his own adult tastes -- and the second is weird exaggeration that, as has often happened in this thread, presents one side of the discussion as mild, helpful, polite fellows and the other side as incredulously offended that anyone would dare be myopic and insular. Alan's still pigeonholing and dismissing others, as is his wont, and Matt's wondering why everyone's attacking him, even if they just politely disagreed with the guy standing next to him.
I think far too many internet discussions wind up intransigent because both sides manage to feel that they're on the defensive, and what each side puts forth as defense, the other side takes as attack, and feels contrained to defend themselves, and then the other side takes that as attack, and around and about it goes again. I'm hardly going to be the guy to change it, but it still strikes me as spectacularly pointless.
It's as if someone said that they wished they liked cauliflower more, and another guy says you should try beets, and the first guy says he doesn't care for beets, and within four messages, guy one is on the defensive because he thinks he's being pilloried as someone who hates all vegetables but cauliflower and the second guy's on the defensive because he feels all vegetables but cauliflower have been impugned.
There's nothing wrong with recommending other stuff. But realistically, there are people who like mystery novels, and if they get tired of the current options and wish they had something more to read, you may be able to tempt them with historicals set in eras they like as mystery settings, or thrillers or something else strongly plotted, but if you push SF or westerns or Sidney Sheldon's autobiography, they're just not going to be interested; they'd rather go to the movies. There's nothing wrong with making the recommendation, but when it's greeted with "no, thanks," if the next thing that happens is that people start impugning the mystery reader's tastes for being too narrow, even if they've already indicated they read some other stuff, then things have gone out of control somehow.
The mystery reader is left wondering why these people are so insistent that he find more pr
Damn! Lost the rest of the comment!
**
The mystery reader is left wondering why these people are so insistent that he find more prose to read, as if that's the only narrow focus permissable -- why it has to be about books books books when there's a whole range of other things to do that he's already interested in.
The other side is left wondering why mystery boy's tastes are so narrow as to be only interested in one genre (even when he's indicated that's not the case), when there's such a wide range of other choices there.
And each side bridles at being told their choices are narrow, when from their end of the kaleidoscope, it looks like they've got the broad spectrum and the other guy's got the narrow one.
Some people want to read books, and when they run out of stuff they like, want to find more. Some people are content with particular kinds of books, and when they run out of stuff they like are happy to get out of the chair and go to the movies, or hiking, or whatever.
Nothing wrong with either kind of choices. I think there's probably something wrong with the continual misapprehension of what's actually being said, though, leading to arguments that have no resolution because both sides are talking past each other.
kdb
Ai-yi-yi. 222 posts? Hm. In which case, let me just say two things:
1) Kurt wins, as per bloody usual.
2) INTERNET!!!1!eleventyone!!!11!
So are we all being prickly today because the JLA mind wiped us or are we just badly written?
And if Paul has cracked the internet in half, which side is the variant half and how much does it go for in Wizard?
300 by dawn or bust!
300, that's by Frank Miller, right?
I guess it is a basic lack of communication or something. Because I went back through the beginning of this thread and truly didn't see anything offensive, even from Doane.
Maybe members of both sides were looking to take offense. It seems to me that one was.
Man, KDB could've gotten this thread to 300 by splitting up his monster post(s) alone!
FBR: We did! We pulled it off! I can't believe it! Where's the needle?
KDB: Oh, it broke off, baby! Woo, hoo, hoo!
FBR: Oh, Mr. Busiek, I gotta thank you. I - I learned a lot. Things are gonna be different for me now.
KDB: Well, that's a weird thing to say....
Anyway, I dunno, I will say that this thread has inspired me to go buy some comics (thanks to J and E and a couple of other letters of the alphabet).
But mostly things like, "Mouse Guard" and "Astro Boy." Although the one comment I don't get from the article (wait, are we allowed to talk about the article?) is the anti-manga stuff. I mean, what is SO different about manga? To me it's just another comic book, y'know, 2-dimensional, words+pictures, no sound effects, etc... I have nothing snarky to say, though--anyone available for an assist?
Wait, I got it--The big crossover crap things, who buys this stuff? Speculators? Fans? Kids? Fanboys? Carl Speckler?
Carl Speckler Open http://www.crk.umn.edu/
newsevent...pecklerOpen.htm
Just stirrin' the pot ...
KRAMER: Listen to me. When that car rolls into that dealership, and that tank is bone dry, I want you to be there with me when everyone says, "Kramer and that other guy, oh, they went further to the left of the slash than anyone ever dreamed!"
the second is weird exaggeration that, as has often happened in this thread, presents one side of the discussion as mild, helpful, polite fellows and the other side as incredulously offended that anyone would dare be myopic and insular. Alan's still pigeonholing and dismissing others, as is his wont, and Matt's wondering why everyone's attacking him, even if they just politely disagreed with the guy standing next to him.
I dunno Kurt. This comment from Paul:
I am utterly baffled by the general assumption that if one is bored of comics, one should start randomly reading more comics in the hope of stumbling upon something that one likes.
...certainly sounds to me like general indignation at the idea that he ought to try other comics, rather than just an objection to Alan's comments.
Kurt-- Although usually you are right about everything, in this case you may be overlooking the fact that, for months upon months, Paul has himself been complaining about the quality of the majority of mainstream comics he reads, possibly because he insists on reading EVERY SINGLE X-MEN-RELATED COMIC regardless of quality or persistent suckage. Given this, it's understandable that the first reaction of many people was, "Well, yeah, the stuff you read *is* pretty bad." I think a lot of his regular readers are hoping that he'll drop the X-project and devote more of his considerable writing talents to reviews of good comics.
I'm not one of those readers, because good reviews are boring and I always enjoy watching a man tear into a crappy Nightcrawler plot, but I'm sure their hearts are in the right place.
I'm not one of those readers, because good reviews are boring and I always enjoy watching a man tear into a crappy Nightcrawler plot, but I'm sure their hearts are in the right place.
I agree with that, but let's face it, there are plenty of other crappy books to tear into too. The X-books have just become a barndoor target (to borrow one of Paul's favorite phrases), and I'd be bored with taking them apart too, if they were my primary focus.
Let's see if I can do my part to help reach 300: Even if most of you nerds bought Tales Designed to Thrizzle and Zatanna, people still wouldn't like you.
I would read CONAN if there was a large-print version available. Actually, I probably wouldn't, but I'd flip through it at the bookstore if it had an LP copy. OK, I know I wouldn't, since I don't even bother visiting the comics section of the bookstore anymore; I go to the audiobooks and large-print shelves, and the braille section if the store has one. I might buy some of those strip collections Bill Blackbeard's publishing, since I hear they're excellent and have fucking HUGE print, but comics are really boring when you can't read them. And you're not an emotionally stunted manchild whose identity is so wrapped up in your favorite entertainment that any criticism of it is a criticism of you. And Wednesday doesn't mean "New Comics" to you; it means "Garbage Day," not to be redundant. And you don't have B.O. like the Buchenwald chimneys at high noon.
>> ...certainly sounds to me like general indignation at the idea that he ought to try other comics>>
I think perhaps you'd do better to read it as bafflement, rather than indignation that someone would dare make such a suggestion.
If you're determined to read anger into "baffled," then I think you're going to lead yourself astray. I'd be reasonably baffled by someone telling me, "There's a whole world of better work out there, a lot of it in the genre you're hankering for, folks in spandex shooting bolts out of their hands," in response to an article that said, "And yes, of course there's always a number of decent indie books. You can say that every year. That can be taken for granted."
If that led to a testy response, I'd write it off to that rather than an assumption of offense that someone would dare make suggestions. But we do tend to escalate rather than write things off, don't we?
kdb
>> Although usually you are right about everything, in this case you may be overlooking the fact that, for months upon months, Paul has himself been complaining about the quality of the majority of mainstream comics he reads, possibly because he insists on reading EVERY SINGLE X-MEN-RELATED COMIC regardless of quality or persistent suckage.>>
I don't think I'm overlooking that, no. I do think that anyone familiar with Paul's reviews would be aware that he does read more than Marvel/DC hero books, an assumption that's repeatedly been made.
kdb
I'll be honest and say that I didn't realize he read more than Marvel/DC when I started, but, of course, did realize it when it was pointed out.
But that actually made the "I don't want to try new comics," even more confusing.
People get tired of things and put them aside, for a while or for good. It just happens.
I have a cabinet full of 40k figures collecting dust that will attest to that.
I can't finish this thread. I'm sorry. All I can add is that I agree with Ed Cunard:
I have a cabinet full of 40k figures collecting dust that will attest to that.
I'm not trying to be snarky or confrontational in any way shape or form....is 40k a brand name or are you saying you have 40,000 figures? Just curious.
I'd be reasonably baffled by someone telling me, "There's a whole world of better work out there, a lot of it in the genre you're hankering for, folks in spandex shooting bolts out of their hands," in response to an article that said, "And yes, of course there's always a number of decent indie books. You can say that every year. That can be taken for granted."
But people aren't just pointing out what he's already acknowledged. They're also suggesting that perhaps Paul should switch his focus to those good books (and not just indy books), the sort of books he's acknowledged enjoying, rather than just giving up on the medium entirely. And that's what Paul seems rather incredulous about, whereas I don't think that suggestion is all that outlandish.
Seems that people are just mad because Paul didn't take their suggestions. Like, when you suggest your favorite band to a cool kid you know and he's just all "meh", you want to get a little miffed because damn it, he's smart, you're smart, let's listen and talk about smart music together! It just that Paul doesn't want to, which as crazy as the whole idea sounds, I'm ok with.
40k is nerd shit. Straight up Warhammer. Its ok, though. I have RIFTS books that have been collecting dust since the 10th grade.
So 40k is a brand name. Got it. Thanks.
I'm happy someone explained it. Man, as much as I'm against speculator mentality, if I had some figures of something worth $40k (which is how I read it), I'd be selling that shit and buying a pony.
To This From Kurt:
"There's nothing wrong with recommending other stuff. But realistically, there are people who like mystery novels, and if they get tired of the current options and wish they had something more to read, you may be able to tempt them with historicals set in eras they like as mystery settings, or thrillers or something else strongly plotted, but if you push SF or westerns or Sidney Sheldon's autobiography, they're just not going to be interested; they'd rather go to the movies."
That analysis, smart as it is, when applied to the beginning of the thread rather than the weird argument that spiraled out of it, assumes that people were initially approaching Paul as a reader rather than as a pundit. I don't really have any concern for Paul as a reader, other than I feel sympathy for him not enjoying comics right now, because in his writing he seems like a smart, nice guy and that's happened to me with certain hobbies/passions. It's a bummer.
But I'm much more interested in Paul as a pundit. I think Paul reveals through his boredom with superhero comics a certain view of all comics that I find superhero-centric and kind of outdated. A lot of the language he uses says comics rather than superhero comics, and he kind of curtly deals with other kinds of comics in a way that I think diminishes their importance in his worldview. When he was engaging the thread earlier, it seemed to me he thinks of superhero comics as the mainstream not just in name but as their appropriate and rightful place.
In other words, as a reader I don't think anyone needs to read Epileptic but I hope that every industry watcher with an audience considers Pantheon a major player in comics and what they're doing in moving six figures in Marjane Satrapi book an industry event worth mentioning. Or Andrews McMeel -- the comics publication of the year just may end up being The Complete Calvin and Hobbes, even if you don't read strips. And so on. If Paul doesn't think these are worthy events to consider in relation to a down cycle from companies like Marvel and DC, that's cool, too, but I want to challenge that view, or at least suggest an alternative, within the bounds of this goofy board.
If you recall, the original posting was made in terms of comics and industry news, not in terms of what books we all like.
But yeah, shit, read what you want.
At the extortionate prices Games Workshop (aka the Jenny Craig of wargaming) charges for its damned figures, I've probably spent 40 grand on the hobby.
If I could have done it over again, I would have bought a pony instead.
Alan, I don't think superhero comics are any worse now than they were five years or ten years ago or whenever they were supposed to be recently really great. I think they may have stopped put a lot of energy into doing a lot of a certain kind of comic, but I don't think they've stopped assigning who they feel are top creators or anything like that. Is anyone really not working?
>> They're also suggesting that perhaps Paul should switch his focus to those good books (and not just indy books), the sort of books he's acknowledged enjoying, rather than just giving up on the medium entirely.>>
And he's said he's not interested. See earlier comments -- you're telling the mystery novel fan he should switch to SF, having liked some here and there, and he's saying no thanks. There doesn't seem to be any reason to get defensive about that.
He doesn't actually seem to be looking for reasons to keep loving the medium, but rather, stuff that's already in his area of interest. Failing that, he seems to have plenty else to do with his time, so it's not like he's gotta find replacement comics or he's entertainmentless.
And I don't know about you, but if I was bored with FANTASTIC FOUR, I wouldn't find THE GOLEM'S MIGHTY SWING a reasonable substitute, merely because it's also comics and it's good. It _is_ good stuff, but it doesn't scratch the same itch, y'know? I got bored with Robert B. Parker novels, and recently discovered that John Sandford novels hit the spot that Parker novels used to, and that's nice. But if someone had suggested I read Borges instead, it wouldn't have helped much, even if I like Borges. Because I'm not just looking for more text, I'm looking for a similar experience, but one that I like the way I used to like the thing I'm bored with.
And if I'm in another mood someday, sure, I might like the Borges -- but not in any way as something that'll fit the particular interest I had in the Parker stuff.
Is this just alien thinking to you, or can you see that sometimes, people aren't just looking for other good stuff in the same medium; they want a certain zing, a certain something? It doesn't mean that other stuff is bad, it just means it's not actually what they're looking for.
>> And that's what Paul seems rather incredulous about, whereas I don't think that suggestion is all that outlandish.>>
Seriously, Matt -- do you think it's worth arguing over whether Paul should be baffled about things if you don't think they're outlandish? It's little...thin, isn't it?
kdb
The question that each reader needs to ask themselves, Tom, is "Have the comics changed or have I changed?"
I have no real desire to read the latest incarnations of the Avengers of the Legion of Super Heroes, but at the same time, I'm sort of glad that the books are still out there and trying something new (personal judgements aside) and are reaching more readers than if they were stuck in a holding pattern to please old farts like myself.
"Avengers *or* Legion of Super Heroes" works, too.
>> That analysis, smart as it is, when applied to the beginning of the thread rather than the weird argument that spiraled out of it, assumes that people were initially approaching Paul as a reader rather than as a pundit.>>
Yes, it does. The people who made pundit-based comments largely didn't spark much discussion,* while the people who made reader-based comments (at one point even rejecting the thought that Paul cared about news even though that's what he'd said, on the assumption that he'd rather read good comics than interesting news), did set off the stuff being fussed about still.
kdb
*indeed, the pundit-based stuff led Paul to say that yeah, he's been considering rethinking the X-Axis, which seemed to put a cap on it.
Is this just alien thinking to you, or can you see that sometimes, people aren't just looking for other good stuff in the same medium; they want a certain zing, a certain something?
I acknowledged that in my first post. But at the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to suggest Paul start looking in other directions, and that he might find that certain zing, that certain something, in unexpected places. Whether Paul takes that suggestion is up to him, but to declare the very suggestion to be "baffling" strikes me as obtuse.
Seriously, Matt -- do you think it's worth arguing over whether Paul should be baffled about things if you don't think they're outlandish? It's little...thin, isn't it?
Eh. We've argued about less 
First Post!
Sheesh was I the only one who had friends to hang out with tonight or something? Don't you all eat dinner?
Well here's the post Kurt is referencing:
"ADD I'm pretty sure he's talking about the news in the comics industry not the quality of the books."
Pardon me for not caring if the quality of the "news" about Marvel and DC is of sufficient quality. Somehow I suspect even Paul would rather read good comics than good press releases about them.
ADD
Yeah that would be the one that ticked me off too. Now let's insert this into the concept of Paul's general bafflement line:
I am utterly baffled by the general assumption that if one is bored of comics, one should start randomly reading more comics in the hope of stumbling upon something that one likes.
My first and most important thought is that reading a comic recommended to you is not the same as randomly reading more comics. Paul seems to baffled by the idea that since he's bored with what he is currently reading he should go check out a bunch of indie comics he knows nothing about, sight unseen. I don't read any objections to stuff people suggest in that. I think he's more against the notion that all mainstream stuff is of lesser quality to that of indies and anything he checks out will be better.
My second thought is that none of this is a proper or real solution to his stated problem, which is that nothing interesting is going on the industry. Now does anybody have any thoughts on what he started this conversation with or are we just going to keep beating the dead horse?
Comics news is stagnant right now because only the boring shit is given attention. I don't care if somebody is exclusive with Marvel as long as you don't count his DC work. I don't care if something printed to order is sold out and a second print is coming out with a new cover.I don't care who might or might not be brainwashed in Infinite M leading them to kill this B or C character who has a bigger fanbase than the company likes to think they do because they are written way out of character. I don't care if DC sells the most comics one month. I don't care if the faces of these companies put in little potshots at the other company because they have a grand plan with company A's being editorial driven and B's being creator driven and corporately pushed onto other titles.
I care about good comics. I care about what could be good comics without the hype, without the gimmick, without the attachment to other books I don't care about. You know what books I'm looking forward to? Testament, American Virgin and The Quitter. You know what was by far my favorite superhero book this year? Super F*ckers #1. You know what my favorite event this year is? Seven Soldiers.
Yet none of these are getting the attention they deserve. Seven Soldiers in particular is getting a huge disservice from the news sites. Here you have what is easily the best event from the big 2 and it's getting less coverage right now than The Other.
Two of the best books at the moment are Action Philosophers and the Surrogates but people aren't buying it because Max Lord is a human now and got his neck broken and people are usingtheir money to buy that. All of these great comics out or coming out soon should be given the attention right now. So, yeah. The news is boring because the attention isn't devoted to where it should be devoted.
Go Team Comics!!!
Wait...sorry...wrong thread.
*backs out quietly*
This thread has been gold and entertaining.
However, I am utterly baffled by the assertion that the Complete Calvin and Hobbes and Absolute Watchmen are in any way major releases. Wow, new editions of works that have never gone out print. Yup, that sure is important. I wonder if prose publishers might do something similarly major this year, like a new printing of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man or Gulliver's Travels.
That's a poor analogy. The C&H an Watchmen new editions are more like new DVD box sets with extras. In the case of C&H the VHS editions would have been out of order with no discerbnable way to tell which cassettes feature which episodes. With Watchmen you are also getting digital restoration and presentation in HiDef resolution.
I hear that 'Street Angel' comic is quite good.
Yes, but you have to try to find it, and that's just so...boring.
This whole thing is giving me TINY FOOTPRINTS ON MY BRAIN.
I got that Street Angel comic and didn't see the Confessor anywhere! What a ripoff...
Now does anybody have any thoughts on what he started this conversation with or are we just going to keep beating the dead horse?
You killed Andrew's Warhammerless-alternate-timeline pony already? That's just mean.
"That's a poor analogy. The C&H an Watchmen new editions are more like new DVD box sets with extras."
What? Did I leave out that the new edition of Portrait is a Viking Critical Edition? Prose, poetry and drama were getting "extras" at least as far back as the 1960s.
"In the case of C&H the VHS editions would have been out of order with no discerbnable way to tell which cassettes feature which episodes."
I suppose that's possibily true, but then why hasn't there been some massive movement for years to get Waterson to issue C+H it's proper order? I've never heard this complaint about the C+H trades before, so I find it a bit hard to believe.
"With Watchmen you are also getting digital restoration and presentation in HiDef resolution."
I suppose some might see it that way, but others might think it's closer to colorizing Citizen Kane.
This is all GRAEME'S FAULT!
GRAEME - YOU'VE RUINED COMICS, YOU SHITBURGER! AND MY LIFE!!!
I vow revenge against you.
Do you know what? I was actually quite enjoying comics and this thread has utterly DESTROYED ANY INTEREST. How so many seemingly intelligent people can so blindly miss the point so as to further their own petty world-views is astonishing.
FACTS:
* Paul writes the X-Axis because he likes it even when the X-comics are shit. Sometimes it's funnier to read reviews of shit comics than good ones.
* Paul reads lots of indie comics as has been quantifiably proven by others SEVERAL TIMES up-thread.
* Paul is bored with mainstream comics at the minute. There is NOTHING wrong with this, because it's Paul's personal feelings. He puts forward a good case as to why.
* The sheer IDEA that somebody could accuse Ninth Art of being pro-super-hero is so amazingly left-of-centre I can't quite believe it. The shit we get for being seen to be pro-indie...
* STREET ANGEL was shit.
Well the second half of Street Angel was shit. Very shit.
Indie Comics In Sometimes Just As Piss-Poor As Super-Hero Comics Shocker!
"STREET ANGEL was shit."
If we could just end this thread at that we'd all be better off.
I want to buy three copies of this thread.
Don't worry Rob we're already working on the varient.
I want a black and white version. Where the blue pound signs are also black.
And Homepage Joe, don't forget the Homepage link. I should warn all of you the Quesada varient is going to have an inflated price despite it being the weakest one.
This thread can't be over yet. We need to break 300.
Once the thread hits three hundred, we need to organize the posts into three categories. Those to:
Fuck
Marry
Kill
We do?
The current x-axis ends with Paul announcing that next week's X-Axis will contain the 'State of the X-Axis Address'. Perhaps some of your kinda-complaints will be addressed there?
Oh dear that can't be a good thing.
"Indie comics are nothing but gay cowboys eating pudding."
Now you're just being desperate to get this past 300 aren't you?
Just doing my part.
Now you're just being desperate to get this past 300 aren't you?
You know the Bendis Board is just gonna come up with some kind of idiotic discussion which will inspire comedic genius that will total 300+ posts in less than 20 minutes.
In a broader sense, I can see Paul's point. At the moment, I'm much more excited by manga, webcomics and some of the middle-genre stuff than I am by either superhero comics or art-comics -- and I'm probably reading more manga online in scanlated form than I am in printed form.
Actually, I'm just posting here because my mother told me I need to be more of a scenester.
Dirk, if you're going to be a scenester, at least try to be on time.
It's pretty obvious that Paul just needs to get laid, then he will enjoy comics again.
Everything you know about the existing fanbase is wrong!
It's pretty obvious that Paul just needs to get laid, then he will enjoy comics again.
He keeps rejecting my advances, though.
Sorry, guys, but you didn't make 300 by dawn. I tried to help, but food, sex and old comics lured me away.
kdb
Will this help? It's not food, sex or old comics, though, so maybe not.
Heidi:
HOW DARE YOU?!?
Okay and my advice to Paul.
Go to a library by yourself. There should be lots of stuff there, movies, novels and even a small graphic novel section. Browse, find something that looks interesting and then find a big comfy chair.
This is what I do when I'm bored or stressed out. Well, last time I went to a big bookstore and read Superman: Red Son. It really helped.
My brain hurts.
Gosh I'm late to this discussion I guess.
I've gotten bored with comics quite a few times as well, but always seem to find something else in the field to spark an interest. So hopefully something will do the same for you Paul.
My area has some terrible shops and libraries and the selection at the book chain stores can be fairly sparse. Yet review sites and such are helpful in finding things.
I'm also thinking about trying this site:
http://tinyurl.com/7sbnd
Where one can apparently rent GNs. Which might be helpful since I love reading, but hate trying to find a place to put the books afterwards.
Jamie, you forgot the most important part:
"Go to a library by yourself. There should be lots of stuff there, movies, novels and even a small graphic novel section. Browse, find something that looks interesting and then find a big comfy chair."
Corrected:
"Go to a library by yourself. There should be lots of stuff there, movies, novels and even a small graphic novel section. Browse, find something that looks interesting and then find a big comfy chair. Now shit in that chair."
If we reach 300, do we get a remote controlled car from the Captain O Sales Club?
No. Graeme just kills Fanboy Rampage and goes on to something else.
Rampage!
I said RAMPAGE, bitches!
Rampage with Rant Comics:
http://www.rantcomics.com
RAMPAGE 300!!!
I did it all for you, Kurt!
I refuse to rampage.
It's official: the Internet has broken in half.
And Fanboy Rampage did it.
I'll take the half the dog didn't lick.
I came close to giving up on reading this thread a few times, but I'm glad I never did. Tom Spurgeon's last comment made it all seem worthwhile in the end.
305th post!!! Woo-hoo!!!
I went through a period when I was reading loads of comics, exploring different sorts of comics, just really throwing myself into it. Though I did find a lot of good material in that period, I found loads of lousy crap too, and it mostly just reinforced the general sense of ennui that I think I share with Paul O'Brien. I don't think it's about Marvel and DC, I think it's more about a relatively low percentage of comics of interest within the ENTIRE ARTFORM.
Geez, I turn my back on you guys for two days and come back to this.
Okay, let me preface this by saying I'm a HUGE fan of X-Axis and Paul O'Brien is one of my favorite 'Net critics.
That's not why I agree with his perception on the state of the mainstream. Because if the best, most innovative idea Marvel AND DC can come up with (simultaneously, no less) is Big Giant Crossover Events, something's seriously gone wrong.
I'm with you, Diana. I wish I could have gotten in on this discussion before it went crazy.
Let's face it, people are unusally vested in Paul's taste in comics because he's a damn fine critic. This thread has been populated with some folks who don't read his columns (and yet are perfectly happy to speak about it generally), but, you know what? Ignore them. Paul certainly has.
I don't read _any_ X-men comics-- but I do check out X-Axis every week. Not just for the indie reviews, but for the writing. Paul O'Brien is like the Roger Ebert of comics. Intensely knowledgable about the medium, genuinely intelligent and insightful, and yet playful and pliable enough to accept work on its on terms.
He's a better critic than mainstream comics deserve.
I'll be sad if you give up the X-Axis, Paul. But if you start reviewing something else (Film, Television, Ballet) I'll follow you there...
Holy. Shit. That was depressing.
This reminds me of my old 3-D Design instructor who, having said that he'd stopped watching television and movies, would get a TV or movie recommendation from my classmates EVERY WEEK.
'I know what you mean sir, but if you only watched this thing or that thing...'
'It's not so bad, really, you just have to look harder...'
And y'know, true enough. And sure, there's nothing wrong with recommending things that you love.
What bothered me though, was that it seemed, to me, that they weren't so much suggesting programs and movies to someone who's given up on them... but justifying their reasons for not doing so.
I'll be honest with you, speaking as a couch potato, I felt bad when my teacher revealed this about himself. It seemed so alien, so radical, to me. I imagine those classmates felt bad about it too, but, rather than think about it some more, decided to gang up on our teacher and insist THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH MOVIES AND TELEVISION, ALRIGHT?
So Paul O'Brien is bored with comics. So what? What does that have to do with you or your love for the medium? Nothing. If a (heterosexual) man decides after a string of failed relationships to give up on women altogether, you don't set them up with your fucking sister.
THREE HUNDRED AND TENTH POST!
Commenting by HaloScan
