Who likes pie?
I'm thinking lemon meringue, myself.
We want him on that wall. We need him on that wall.
For someone who is so bored with me, Graeme, you just can't stop watching me, talking about me, and trying to inflame your hordes of stimulation-starved readers to burn me in effigy.
You know what I'm bored with? Days of Our Lives. Haven't watched it in years, have no idea what is happening on the show, or really even if they still make it. That's boredom. You, on the other hand, seem positively riveted.
As stalkers go, Graeme, you're not the first, and you're not even the best. Hell, you haven't even showed up at my house or hacked into my website. As aggravations go, you're somewhere between bedbug and canker sore.
I don't wonder anything at all about you, because it's all out there
for any keen observer to see. Comics has its Miss Haversham, and her
name is Fanboy Rampage. Shine on.
Reminds me of Arnie Pye, the insane helicopter reporter from the Simpsons. "I am the news, Graeme!"
"Who likes pie?
I'm thinking lemon meringue, myself."
I'm a Dutch Apple man, m'self...
Fuck that shit! Have you tried Steak and Kidney Pie?
Complaining about the mettle of your current "stalker"? See that's what's wrong with comics right there.
The comic blogosphere, the little train that couldn't.
Perhaps ADD would provide less FBR material if he hadn't turned himself into a frothing, one-man Bendis Board of late?
Alan, they're not stalking you. They're laughing at you. If you can't understand why they're laughing at you, then you really need to take a step back.
Always happy to provide some entertainment value, Paul -- that's more than we can say for your favourite comics, after all, yes?
Oh, believe me, Alan, you'd be catastrophically entertaining even in a good year.
Doane, take your pills, you're an embarrassment.
But Mark Millar thinks he's the most intelligent person on the 'net!
Ooh, snap! Good one, Thor!
Wow.
I would like to thank publicly all of the parties involved in this completely insane series of discussions, rants, and public meltdowns -- unintentionally hysterical and intentionally so alike -- for leavening what has been, for me, an otherwise long and trying week of school, work, and an impending birthday that involves a larger number than I care to think about. You are, all of you, the wind beneath my wings.
Sadly, my letters column, much like the rest of the site, affords a wider audience only for people who have small families and don't check to see how their stuff posted.
Every time I read my stats my software gives me the option of enabling a series of virtual tumbleweeds.
Isn't it great?
Isn't it great?
Dude, that's not wind. That's trumpy.
//Oo/\
(Now that's weird, because I definitely didn't click "Post" twice.)
Paul, that must be the exact point where the internet split in half.
"I would like to thank publicly all of the parties involved in this completely insane series of discussions, rants, and public meltdowns..."
You mis-spelled inane.
Fuck pie. CHEESE CAKE!
ADD has ADD. Oh yeah! I went there! Take that you Kochalkaholic!
ahem
"I would like to thank publicly all of the parties involved in this completely insane series of discussions, rants, and public meltdowns -- unintentionally hysterical and intentionally so alike -- for leavening what has been, for me, an otherwise long and trying week..."
Finally, somoene who gets it.
Heh, I'd like to echo Chris Galdieri's comment there - FBR updates always come at the end of a work day here (and brighten it up) but all this rampant anger has provided super entertainment during an otherwise shockingly dull week of work.
Alex,
That was kind of the point of my initial letter this morning at Comics Reporter -- I mean, here we are in a corporate comics atmosphere so absolutely bereft of entertainment that this week has been needed to get anyone excited about what they're reading. I mean, really, EXCELSIOR!
Actually, according to Alexa, excepting an atypical spike in June, Spurgeon's site has been routinely outdrawing CBG throughout 2005, especially over the past two months.
What I find hilarious is that for all his bluster, Alan seriously doesn't know how to READ! Really Alan do you only like your indies for the pictures or something? I'm searching all over the place to see where Graeme said he was bored with you and I'm seeing zilch. I'm STILL laughing about how you took Paul's complaining about nothing interesting going on in the entire industry to mean he's reading boring books. Dude your comprehension level is so bad I'm sending you back to Marvel Adventures. Go read an issue of Power Puff Girls and get back to us when you've finished second grade.
No Alan, you're just a gibbering fuckhead, sorry.
Oh. Haha. I get it. It's satire, like how Miller said DKII was. Ah ha.
Chris,
He said it here, but he keeps deleting it to work you guys up further:
"I wasn't offended by any of your comments as much as I was bored by them... I'm bored of your "Pushing Comix Forward" mentality that is stuck on one particular vision for what that actually means, worshipping a Pantheon of approved creators and publishers. I'm bored of your apparent need to belittle people who disagree with that vision. I'm bored of your pretense to fit into some idea of what a comic fan should be, instead of just coming out and saying, "Yes, I bought Green Lantern: Rebirth, it's not great but it's fun," or whatever. There was nothing you wrote that meant that I "had to" ban you from FBR - and apparently, you found a way back anyway - I'm just tired of your passive aggressiveness all the time, especially in that surreal comments thread."
Surreal comments thread, who'da thunk it?
And the Foam Award for Rabid Lunatic of the Year goes to...
You know, Alan, for someone who claims to despise the superhero genre so much, you certainly seem to enjoy employing the same tactics that made people like Chuck Austen, JMS and Bill Jemas so unlikeable - it's not enough that their opinion differs from others, it's that they have this compulsive need to point out that everyone else is an idiot for "not getting it" (as opposed to getting it and disagreeing with it).
You know what I don't get?
The fucking SPITE.
The spite people have for Doane. Some mask it in "oh, I'm huuumored by this," but it is spite. I know it well, I teach public school.
The spite directed at some corporate creators. They make crap; big deal, don't read it.
The utter spite just ready at any moment in this idiotic comic web community. People snip and snipe at whoever has a chance of making them look better, or whoever made them feel bad.
And now both "sides" of this goddam argument or fight or whatever the shit this petty thing is are just sinking further and further.
Snap the fuck out of it, people. Discuss comics, be they idiotic ones or great ones. But the people discussing comics aren't that good a discussion topic.
Yeah, most direct market shops are deplorably bad. Mine isn't; mine is Rocketship and it's great. Yeah, most comics are boring. Those are the ones you don't bother with; there are more great comics coming out than I can even deal with. But we're not talking about those goddam comics. We're talking about talking about comics and about the other people who talk about comics and about who hates whom and who gets more hits (nice one, Guy). It doesn't matter who you like or who you don't like. You're not 15 year old girls vying for attention. Fucking discuss the comics or go pick fights in real life.
Joe's right. Let's talk about comics.
ADD Reviews THE CUTE MANIFESTO
James Kochalka is a guy who just can't stop thinking about comics. He thinks about comics so much that other people who think a lot about comics have even appropriated Kochalka's most iconic statement on the subject to express their feelings on the matter. And while I believe Kochalka's very best work is by definition a work in progress, he certainly has come a long way since his earliest efforts within the artform.
One disgruntled former comics creator is even on record as saying Kochalka's work is a waste of paper, but it was instructive to me last year to meet someone who quite sincerely and convincingly recounted to me how Deadbear Detective -- one of Kochalka's earliest and most primitive works -- was a landmark moment in his comics-reading life that made him a lifelong devotee of the cartoonist's work.
If there's one thing I've learned in my seven years or so as a comics critic, it's that personal, passionately created comics will reach and oftentimes profoundly affect an audience despite any perceived technical flaws, poor production values or a failure to check one's spelling. So while a closed mind or an embittered heart might dismiss Kochalka's seeming simplicity of line or overarching narrative concerns, the loyal and increasing audience he has built in the years I have watched his career is proof that craft may not be the enemy, but when unaccompanied by sincerity or passion, one should hide the silver and lock up one's daughters while it's hanging around.
The Cute Manifesto arrives as a sort of accidental primer on Kochalka. Many of his storytelling styles and moods are on display in this thick little book, from the pensive naturalism of Sunburn to the playful but impassioned inquiries of The Horrible Truth About Comics. His Craft is the Enemy essays are here, too, and if they aren't a universal model for every single person who wants to pick up an artist's tools and begin a lifetime of self-expression, they certainly provide more valuable, honest nutritive value than, say How To Draw Comics The Marvel Way.
One of Kochalka's undeniably best-conceived works is here, too. Reinventing Everything started out as two mini-comics, outlining how Kochalka saw his life and his world after the paradigm-shifting events of 11 September 2001. Among other things, Reinventing Everything is an explanation of and rumination on his and his wife's decision to bring new life into the world. It is at times as light and insubstantial as the blinking lights of a videogame screen, and then in the same story deeply humanistic, powerfully immediate and heart-stoppingly honest. It's impossible to think that the boy at the heart of this story, Eli Kochalka, won't someday read it and be singularly moved that his father felt so much and was so unafraid to share his feelings about his child with the small part of the world that cares what he has to s
Say what you want about Alan but he runs the one of the smartest comics related web sites on the internet and he and his CBG contributors have steered me (and many others) towards some of the most intelligent comics being produced today.
Which is more than what Graeme and a lot of people here can say.
You may not agree with what he says and he may be overly aggressive at times but he puts his money where his mouth is and if Comic Book Galaxy disappeared tomorrow it would leave a huge hole in the comics internet-sphere.
"Fucking discuss the comics or go pick fights in real life."
I think you may have missed the point of Fanboy Rampage if you think we ought to be discussing comics.
Matt, I'm not one to eat organs involved in excretory functions, hence my love of all fruit pies, chicken pot pies, beef pot pies, and yes, even sour cream pies.
But steak and kidney? Not with a bargepole, man!
Alan David Doane Now Going
Door-To-Door Trying To Shock People
OVERLAND PARK, KS--Stung by a lack of attention and Eminem's supplanting him as Middle America's worst nightmare, shock blogger Alan David Doane has embarked on a door-to-door tour of suburbia in a desperate, last-ditch effort to shock and offend average Americans....
......world that cares what he has to say. It is just that, James Kochalka's unashamed and unmodulated love of life and all its complexity and contradiction, that makes his cartooning so valuable, so immediate, and so moving. I remain in awe of the achievement of Reinventing Everything, and I'm glad those two mini-comics have found new life in this more permanent form.
I wasn't altogether taken with the format and design of this book; I'd have liked it in larger dimensions, somewhere between here and the format of the Fancy Froglin volume. There's also perhaps a bit too much white space, which could have been used to feature the covers of many of the comics collected herein. Those are technical quibbles, though, and only impacted my enjoyment a bit. Ironically, probably the least affecting piece in this volume is the title story The Cute Manifesto. While obviously sincere and even factually accurate about both the universal cuteness of new life and the power of holding that life you've created in your arms, at just eight pages I sympathize with its intentions more than I can fully invest myself in its execution. That said, if I find it the weakest element of this volume, at eight pages it's hard to be terribly put out when so much excellence surrounds and outnumbers it. And hell, as my experience meeting that Deadbear Detective afficianado last year taught me, I could be all wet: You might think it's the best thing in this volume which contains so many good things...
For me, though, the real creative heart of this book is The Horrible Truth About Comics. It's not of terribly recent vintage -- Magic Boy's ears are longer and his hair is thicker than newcomers to Kochalka's work will expect -- but it is a long, thoughtful essay-in-comics-form that does that most magical magic trick of cartooning. The reader is utterly immersed and invested in the cartoonist's committment to exploring his own thoughts and ideas on the page, seemingly learning along with the reader what he believes and what he knows and pondering what still lies ahead in this most powerful artistic medium. "The biggest insult is a comic that sucks," Magic Boy says at one point, and we've all felt that sting of disappointment. "I don't mind a slap in the face if the result is a good comic," though, Kochalka notes; as one of the most forthright, emotional and observational of cartoonists, he certainly has suffered that -- at the hands of obsessive superhero hobbyists, jealous also-rans and confused
readers who think every comic strip ever created has to have an easily digested punchline and eschew self-examination.
For my money, though, anyone who can't find meaning in Kochalka's work either doesn't have the life experience to appreciate the bravery with which the cartoonist explores the universes within and without him, or is deeply afraid to face the ultimate revelation such self-examination might result in. In any case, The Cute Manifesto is a powerful, compact and convincing case for the enduring and increasing popularity of one of team.artcomix's Most Valued Players, a love letter to comics, to his son, and most gratifyingly to us, his readers. "Resolve to put the skills you do have to work now," he says, "and pick up more along the way." Kochalka knows the true enemy is not craft, but time, and the insidious manner in which it ticks away whether we choose to use it wisely or not. Create every day with passion and honesty, he seems to say, and your craft will improve by necessity and by nature. Kochalka's work over the years is an undeniable testament to this idea, and The Cute Manifesto is a wondrous documentation of his magical journey. Grade: 4.5/5
That review would probably have a lot more weight if you weren't, like, nuts. 
"Lack of attention," yes, Prince Brian, that is what I am suffering.
I thought "Nuts" was the Official Mascot of Fanboy Rampage, Diana?
Ah so your response to the argument is to point out that he's bored with you being snobbish jerk that you are, rather than him being bored with your ability to cause everybody to get into a tither on messageboards by BEING a snobbish jerk.
The two things aren't mutally exclusive Alan but they're close. This is Rampage!!! where nutball meassageboard threads are burned alive with talcum powder. You need to understand that there's a difference between not liking a jerk and enjoying the roasting the jerk receives for being a jerk.
It's like this week's issue of Batman. He doesn't like Black Mask or Joker, but he enjoys watching them beat the crap out of each other. (In what was otherwise a horrible travesty of a comic that should be destroyed for existance...)
Incidentally Graeme isn't getting us to burn you in effigy. You do that yourself just fine. Reep what you sow.
"You may not agree with what he says and he may be overly aggressive at times but he puts his money where his mouth is and if Comic Book Galaxy disappeared tomorrow it would leave a huge hole in the comics internet-sphere."
There is certainly much truth to this but I would respectfully suggest that Alan's obnoxious and wilfully arrogant attitude is only capable of appealing to those who, at least in general, already agree with him. He will alienate a thousand times more potential readers than he will ever attract for the comics he loves. If you want to convince people of your way of thinking, treating with them open contempt is generally a poor start.
I think you may have missed the point of Fanboy Rampage if you think we ought to be discussing comics.
I get the point. I think it's a bad point. I've said my piece. If people would rather catfight than talk about comics, then I got nothing for them.
Why are all these posts so long? How many sentences do you need to say, "Yes, cheese cake beats pie"? This isn't Student U.N. people, move it along!
Oh, we do "Broadmoor Hospital" nuts. You're Arkham all the way.
God, somebody save me from ADD's boring reviews.
ADD = Adipose-Distended Dramaqueen
Wait, wait WAIT! We're burning ADD in effigy? I thought it was John Byrne! I really need to start reading my email.
This is Rampage!!! where nutball meassageboard threads are burned alive with talcum powder. You need to understand that there's a difference between not liking a jerk and enjoying the roasting the jerk receives for being a jerk.
I kind of agree with you, Chris, but lets not pretend that the comments threads of Fanboy Rampage haven't become just as bad as anything that's ever been linked to for mocking.
And, yes, James, cheesecake beats pie. Cheesecake especially beats Cheese Pie, because Cheese Pie is just gross. I loves me some cottage cheese, but I'd never say baking it in a crust is a great idea.
"There is certainly much truth to this but I would respectfully suggest that Alan's obnoxious and wilfully arrogant attitude is only capable of appealing to those who, at least in general, already agree with him. He will alienate a thousand times more potential readers than he will ever attract for the comics he loves. If you want to convince people of your way of thinking, treating with them open contempt is generally a poor start."
If someone decides not to read Optic Nerve or Louis Riel because they think Alan's a prick then like Joe Rice said, I got nothin' for them.
This week's issue of Batman was utter CRAP! Can I just say that again? CRAP CRAP CRAP! It's the worst travesty in mainstream comics since Gwen Stacy got Norman juiced. How could DC print such garbage? How could they destroy a character with so much integrity? We need to turn all this ADD junk on that because I'm sure we can all agree it wasn't fit to poop on.
Busiek wins!
There I said my comic's piece for today.
Wow. Such....passion.
Am I the only casual comics fan who posts here?
"If someone decides not to read Optic Nerve or Louis Riel because they think Alan's a prick then like Joe Rice said, I got nothin' for them."
Yeah, because if I go up to somebody and say "You're a complete fucking idiot for not reading OPTIC NERVE", it's clearly THEIR FAULT when they don't accept my recommendation.
*raises hand* You're not alone, Andrew. You will never be alone. 
"Yeah, because if I go up to somebody and say "You're a complete fucking idiot for not reading OPTIC NERVE", it's clearly THEIR FAULT when they don't accept my recommendation."
Nobody ever says things like that, Paul, you and your ilk just take it that way.
Joe: I don't think you can honestly say that the spite isn't a well-traveled two-way street here. Doesn't make it right, but let's at least admit that ADD's no innocent bystander who stumbled into this forum and was set upon without reason.
Christopher: CBG definitely has some good writers, and many of them do a pretty good job of spotlighting interesting comics, both superhero and otherwise, which makes it that much more unfortunate that the site is frequently overshadowed by ADD's blustering antics and abrasive online personality.
In this specific case, though, where ADD blasted the comics retailing industry using broad stereotypes and personal anecdotes, he isn't putting his money anywhere near where his mouth is. Reviewing comics and offering snarky commentary on an obscure web site isn't Pushing Comix Forward any more than the often humourous commentary here on FBR is.
Alan, if you seriously believe that, you clearly never read your own writing. Your contempt for the mainstream audience is proud, open, and unashamed.
Really, Alan, it's not rocket science. You go on and on about how worthless the superhero genre is, a "defunct boy's adventure genre", etc. Which is tantamount to saying anyone who reads superhero stories is killing the industry, partaking in idiocy, whatever terminology your rant-du-jour contains. And then you're shocked when, upon suggesting they read "Street Angel" instead, you're met with a resounding "Fuck off, wacko."
Nobody ever says things like that, Paul, you and your ilk just take it that way.
No, but people (and I'm including me in this) have said "You know, the comics you read are shitty, and you should be reading this itself" (I'm paraphrasing here, obviously), which tends to put people on the defensive.
I've been on the defensive before, too, particularly in my recent post taking umbrage with Franklin Harris's dismissal of autobiographical comics. Someone says the comics you dig are shit, it'll probably sting a bit.
"Am I the only casual comics fan who posts here?"
There are no casual comics fans. We ran the last of those suckers off during the Hal/ Kyle "debates".
Paul,
The mainstream audience is reading manga and Marjane Satrapi. I think you mean the corporate comics audience, and I'll even leave off the sneer quotes, just this once, just for you.
And, oh, Heidi wins.
And I meant "instead" instead of "itself," so I'm a stupid fucking mouthbreather.
I agree with Joe Rice and Ed Cunard.
One, there's a ton of spite in all these discussions on both sides. It's kind of sad especially since I think both sides are reasonably intelligent people who go off the deep end occasionally.
Two, Fanboy Rampage for a while now seems to have turned into that which it mocks, which from the beginning everyone seemed to know would eventually happen anyway.
Three, Cheesecake beats everything but any kind of brownies.
Ya'll have fun now. Continue tarnishing the image of everyone that's involved in this in one way or another. Pretty soon this will all fade away because everyone will be too dull to read.
And I've got a free copy of Super-F*ckers #1 to the 100 poster in this thread. Just let me know, this kind of entertainment should be rewarded, and since Graeme almost never shares anything positive with his readers, I thought somebody should.
Me, I like strawberry pie. With whipped cream.
ADD has my family hostage...leave him alone, or who knows what might happen.
"Which is tantamount to saying anyone who reads superhero stories is killing the industry, partaking in idiocy, whatever terminology your rant-du-jour contains"
I vote for "partaking in idiocy."
Nobody ever says things like that, Paul, you and your ilk just take it that way.
Other than, you know, when you basically flat-out stated that everyone who dares voice an opinion that differs from yours should die.
du-jour mustard is good.
Did everyone here see the FANTASTIC FOUR movie yet? Because I haven't seen it yet, and everyone else I know already has.
Anyone wanna go with me? Paul? Alan? Graeme?
...what? I really want to see it.
Manga, yes. Marjane Satrapi, no, not unless you can produce some very impressive sales figures to back that up. EMBROIDERIES is a book billed by its publisher as "an entertaining and enlightening look into the sex lives of Iranian women." I find it hard to believe that this truly qualifies as mainstream by any reasonable definition. "Critically acclaimed and sold in bookshops" is not the same thing.
Or we can have pie. Thats good, too.
Come to San Francisco and it's a date, Neil.
Can't we all just get along?
Doane wants to be Gary Groth, but lacks the writing talent. So he tries to make up for it with tough talk and righteous indignation. Then people make fun of him and he gets to pretend he's being "oppressed." His heart's in the right place, at least.
By the way:
"And I've got a free copy of Super-F*ckers #1 to the 100 poster in this thread."
Does that include your own 15 posts and counting?
Yeah, I got nothing. I wanna join because it looks so fun, but yeah.....nothing.
And the whole thing started so simply, with a columnist mentioning that he was bored with his preferred entertainment vehicle.
THEN, the meltdown happened, based mostly on semantics and inferences based on argumentative conclusions instead of reality. It all brings us to the point where people are so busy fuming over each other that they miss the obvious FBR retorts. Take, for example, this quote:
"You may not agree with what he says and he may be overly aggressive at times but he puts his money where his mouth is and if Comic Book Galaxy disappeared tomorrow it would leave a huge hole in the comics internet-sphere."
And nobody responded with, "Wait, hasn't CBG already disappeared? At least twice?"
I'm so deeply ashamed of all of you.
Here's this argument in a nutshell.
Point
Counterpoint
Defend Point with less informed point
Respond against less informed point
Make mistake and defend less informed point instead of returning the argument to original point
Continue arguing less informed point
Saying stupid shit
responding to stupid shit
other people laugh at stupid shit on both sides
intelligent point on otherwise worthless point that no one really made
intelligent point on less informed point, but never returns to original point
intelligent point not relating to this at all somewhere in the wilds of the internet as Busiek says something
a decent point thrown in amongst nonsense
nonsense
nonsense
stupidity
and on and on and on...
and now I've added some more nonsense.
And, wait, where's Arune to discuss the merits of the latest episode of THE O.C. and how it's the cure for cancer?
Ah, I so miss the good ol' days. . .
If someone decides not to read Optic Nerve or Louis Riel because they think Alan's a prick then like Joe Rice said, I got nothin' for them.
I'm reminded of my ultra-liberal friends (ie. the ones who were even more left-wing than myself) who, in high school, said things like, "If people decide to become conservatives because they don't like liberals like Jerry Brown or Hillary Clinton, then they're stupid!"
In principle, I agree with this sentiment, but in practice, if you're actually trying to recruit a significant number of people to your cause, then you'd have to be absolutely fucking retarded to ignore factors such as this, because at least 90 percent of the population is indeed stupid.
And I include myself in the category, no matter how much I might aspire to be less stupid than most.
Graeme, you. me. movie. popcorn. making out. Fantastic Four.
Best date ever.
Neil: I've already seen it, but since I don't actually remember anything aside from drooling over Chris Evans and wishing Julian McMahon had taken his shirt off at least once (damn you, PG viewers!), I guess I can justify a repeat viewing.
Wonder what JesseBaker thinks of all this? I bet it's profane...
What's the old saying?
Arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics: no matter whether you win or lose, you're still retarded.
There's your snark and political incorrectness, Augie! Someone has to bring FBR home!
Graeme must really like Alan and simply wants him to know how he's coming off, for his own good. Why else would he be so careful to say something such as "seeming breakdown". He once said I was "slightly crazy" and that's when I saw how much he really cares.
Rock on Graeme, you'll yet help make a man out of the man.
Hey, did anyone see the Transformers #0 preview they put up at Newsarama? SWEET.
Or the entire first issue of Elk's Run.
If someone decides not to read Optic Nerve or Louis Riel because they think Alan's a prick then like Joe Rice said, I got nothin' for them.
I was once given a copy of Summer Blonde by a girl I was dating, with a very sweet note that said "for my summer red head." Then I read a review on CBG in which my beloved Spiderman was drawn and quartered in one of its various reviews touting some indie book about god knows what.
Needless to say I never read that Summer Blonde...
Transformers? COOL! Is it tank Megatron or gun Megatron?
Transformers? COOL! Is it tank Megatron or gun Megatron?
Diana, if you want Graeme and I will take our shirts off in the theatre. It might not have the same effect, but still.
There's a difference?
I much prefer Spurgeon's Eight Stories for '05 to the letter column lately. Good stuff there.
did we hit 100?
By the way, the fact that TRANSFORMERS THE MOVIE was Orson Welles last screen credit should solve anybody's mainstream versus indie issues.
Neil Klied wins! E-mail me your mailing details if you want the book, Neil.
Yes, always!
"In this specific case, though, where ADD blasted the comics retailing industry using broad stereotypes and personal anecdotes, he isn't putting his money anywhere near where his mouth is. Reviewing comics and offering snarky commentary on an obscure web site isn't Pushing Comix Forward any more than the often humourous commentary here on FBR is."
FBR has provided me with a few chuckles and laughs during the workday. Nothing wrong with that; it is what it is.
CBG has exposed to me to more than a few comics that have entertained and engaged me on an intellectual level. Comics which will be re-read again and again; have been passed on to non-reading comic friends and will eventually be passed down to my children to read.
You know what was good? This week's CONAN. Busiek wins again because I totally just subscribed.
Welles' dying word? "Megatron."
Actually he wins for the contents of the comment too. I laughed. I cried. A good time was had by all.
You know, I've heard a rumour that 'Street Angel' is really rather good...
Paul: "Marjane Satrapi, no, not unless you can produce some very impressive sales figures to back that up."
I'm having a hard time finding recent sales figures, but I did discover that Persepolis Vol. 1 sold 35,000 copies at $17.95 each in its first year of release. Moreover, the mainstream media couldn't shut up about it. Check out this page at Powell's just for example:
http://www.powells.com/pbn/
books..._2004_0921.html
Persepolis is objectively more mainstream than House of M, and I say that as someone who's enjoying House of M.
Chris,
You know, though, that CBG isn't the only place to find good comics online. If it wasn't for Christopher Butcher's Previews Review (which is having problems, so I can't link it, but he put a temporary one up here), I'd have a lot more money to spend on food.
[Neil Klied wins! E-mail me your mailing details if you want the book, Neil.]
Oh, sure - but, uh... i dont have your email address...
"Persepolis is objectively more mainstream than House of M."
Yes, even given Paul's description about the sex lives of Iranian women. Especially because of that. Take off the super-blinkers, Paul.
Hey could anybody recommend any other really fun books like Conan? I'm so pissed at DC for what happened in BATMAN this week, (Leslie Thompkins killed Robin!) that I'm leaving many DC books behind and looking for the good times again!
alandaviddoane @ gmail dot com , Neil.
Street Angel was in fact a very good title. It sort of reminded me of Madman in it's early days. Street Angel was one of the better things I read this year (to date) along with Scott Pilgrim and the 2000AD Nikolai Dante reprints. And the best part is that these books came recommended by a friend of mine as opposed to some arrogant douchebag.
Ed,
I do know that but CBG was the first site I stumbled onto and it was actually CBG which pointed me to Previews Reviews.
Further to that it was today's ADD blog which pointed me to the newest Preview Reviews (hadn't been there in a while) which in turn made me call my LCS and pre-order Pyongyan: Journey into North Korea.
Don't be so modest, Goodrich, I'm sure you have friends who are arrogant douchebags, too.
I'm only in the side argument here, so don't see this as an endorsement of any side. But re: Marjane Satrapi and "Mainstream"
Arguing mainstream is a sucker's game, because there's no set line. There's "appears regularly on Charlie Rose" mainstream and "Hi, I'm Dolly Parton!" mainstream. There's "easy front page feature in Chicago Tribune's art section" mainstram and "first feature on Entertainment Tonight" mainstream.
It's all relative. Stupid game.
Still, for what it's worth, Marjane's sold over a half million copies of Persepolis worldwide and into the six figures here. For books that's a decent-sized mainstream hit, I would say reasonably comparable to other authors as manga is to other categories.
All right, let's take a vote: Should the 200th poster get a hardcover or a trade paperback as a prize? I bet we could keep this going for 24 hours straight. If we're gonna break the internerd in half, let's do it right, by God, and show Marvel how to do it!
Holy shit, have you nerds jumped the shark. Is there a Fanboy Rampage Rampage yet?
" Manga, yes. Marjane Satrapi, no, not unless you can produce some very impressive sales figures to back that up."
This is one thing I will agree with ADD on; people who wouldn't otherwise read tights'n'such read manga and Persepolis.
Within comics, superheroes are the mainstream; without, they are a niche, and the "indie" and "alternative" comics are the ones selling in bookstores and being assigned for college classes.
Not to say I hate superheroes. Because I don't. It's all just a matter of perspective.
"Persepolis is objectively more mainstream than House of M, and I say that as someone who's enjoying House of M."
35,000 is a good number for a book like that, to be sure, but I don't accept that that makes PERSEPOLIS "objectively more mainstream" than HOUSE OF M. After all, more than four times as many people are reading HOUSE OF M, and I rather doubt that the average person on the street has heard of either project. What makes PERSEPOLIS' 35,000 readers more mainstream than HOUSE OF M's 140,000?
I'm an arrogant douchebag, but only against DC fans. Too many dang capes for my taste.
Not that selling 35,000 copies of a book is anything to sneeze at, but out here in the real world, that's nowhere near being considered a mainstream success. It's only considered impressive because of the type of book it is.
If ONE person orders the unbelievably good "Pyongyang" as a result of this kerfuffle, the whole thing will have been worth it.
-Sean Collins (happy reader of New Avengers and Green Lantern: Rebirth)
"Still, for what it's worth, Marjane's sold over a half million copies of Persepolis worldwide and into the six figures here. For books that's a decent-sized mainstream hit, I would say reasonably comparable to other authors as manga is to other categories."
Fair enough, then. That IS mainstream success.
So wait a minute, if I don't appreciate Kolchaka's work, I'm either afraid or lacking in life experience?
How does my utter disinterest in his drawing style enter into that? I mean, if there's nothing I find visually appealingabout his comics, I'm not going to want to pick up his work. How much work should I have to do as a consumer/customer to make up for the artist's inability to engage me with his work?
You know what would make my day? If Bendis just decided to show up right now. I'm hard pressed to decide rather we would stay on subject or not?
Oh and because I keep forgetting to mention it, have any of you ever tried cheesecake brownies? They're the best.
Cheesecake AND brownies? How would that work?
That's just SICK.
go buy the new issue of daredevil! its got the kingpin in it! wee!
"All right, let's take a vote: Should the 200th poster get a hardcover or a trade paperback as a prize? I bet we could keep this going for 24 hours straight. If we're gonna break the internerd in half, let's do it right, by God, and show Marvel how to do it!"
Hey Alan, how about a hardcover to the person with the most posts praising ADD and CBG??
PERSEPOLIS did really damn well in '04, Paul
http://www.newsarama.com/pages/
T...Bookscan04a.htm
Don;t have access to this years numbers though. EMBRODERIES, for us, at least, is selling at about 25% of the volume of PERSEPOLIS - soldi but not exceptioonal
-B
Sick, but tasty. (Despite my allergies.)
But Guy, that IS the real world, since most of those sales were in bookstores by people who bought the book after reading about it in the New York Times, the New Yorker, Time, etc etc etc. Outside of a handful of huge-name authors, what do you think novels--or god help us, nonfiction memoirs like Persepolis--usually sell, anyway? 35,000 copies at $18 per is pretty terrific--most prose authors would kill for that, let alone for the fawning reviews and coverage that Satrapi got, probably the most of any graphic novel since Maus.
If you don't believe me that Persepolis is a huge mainstream success, though, perhaps this article from noted real-world publication Newsweek might do the trick.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8941.../site/newsweek/
It notes that Persepolis is now literally required reading at West Point. Can't get much more real world than that, can you?
So what's Persepolis about?
And Paul Cheesecake brownies are AWESOME but very hard to make. Just like brownies with chocalate pudding inside, which are also incredible.
Christopher, sorry, if I only awarded the prize to pro-CBG/ADD folks, the terrorists would win.
"So what's Persepolis about?"
This Iranian chick in a super-tight burqa who shoots bolts out of her hands. It originally was gonna be published by CrossGen, but they don't do superheroes.
Christopher, sorry, if I only awarded the prize to pro-CBG/ADD folks, the terrorists would win.
Wait, so pro-CBG/ADD people are terrorists?
Sorry. I really couldn't resist.
"This Iranian chick in a super-tight burqa who shoots bolts out of her hands. It originally was gonna be published by CrossGen, but they don't do superheroes."
Sounds like my last date.
"It notes that Persepolis is now literally required reading at West Point. Can't get much more real world than that, can you?"
To be fair, Sean, I think that's a bit of a red herring. There must be a ton of stuff on the West Point reading list which has a very narrow market indeed.
Thanks for the better stats, Tom. As for what I meant by "mainstream," I'm going to use a horrible neologism and say that what I was going for was that something is mainstream insofar as it's "impactful" on culture. Persepolis is, in a way that House of M (which, again, I enjoy, along with a lot of other superhero comics--I don't feel about the genre the way Alan does, nor do I think it's boring right now the way Paul does) isn't. If we were talking about Persepolis vs. the Spider-Man MOVIE, that would be another kettle of fish.
The definition of "mainstream" - and its various senses - is a fascinating argument indeed, but I suspect it'll make a better Article 10 column than a comments thread...
"I don't feel about the genre the way Alan does..."
Sean, I don't feel any particular way about the genre, really. I like good superhero stories told in comics form as much as I like any other good story in any other genre. The genre isn't the problem, the work being done in it right now is more the problem.
Didn't you read Paul's column?
"I suspect it'll make a better Article 10 column than a comments thread..."
Dare you wield that fierce and terrible power of yours again, Paul?
Hi Paul--Yeah, I thought of that point re: West Point when I typed it, but I thought it illustrated that the book is getting into places beyond the ken of alt-comix partisans or general comics devotees. Sure, a lot of obscure books on (say) military history are likely to be required reading at West Point, but a graphic novel? That's unusual, and I thought it served to illustrate that "the real world" HAS noticed Satrapi.
Of course, a rising tide lifts all the boats--I've written about Brian Bendis for three different bonafide mainstream magazines, frex.
Re: Brian Hibbs note that Embroideries is doing a lot less well, I'd imagine that's because a) it's a lot less tied into current-events issues of dictatorial Muslim regimes than Persepolis was (at least Volume One); b) it's a lot less good than Persepolis was. (And I don't think Persepolis was all it was cracked up to be, either--as I always say when this book comes up, an apples-to-apples comparison with David B.'s Epileptic is not very flattering to Persepolis. I think it's the current-events hook that got it noticed.)
By the "real world," I mean mainstream America, not the rather small percentage of us who read things like Persepolis and/or House of M. (Because yes, ADD, there are many of us who are actually able to enjoy both ends of the spectrum.) A write-up in Newsweek doesn't make something a huge mainstream success.
I want some Persepolitan pastries now.
Mm. Lunchtime.
Welles' dying word?
"Goldbug," surely.
//Oo/\
I enjoyed Persopolis, but I question if it's on the West Point reading list because it's so good, or because reading it takes less time than reading most prose memoirs. Is the fact it is in comics form the "gimmick" that got it on the list, or is it the content and execution? It's enlightening, but I can't say that I felt the illustrations were necessary or even particularly helpful in conveying the message. I am sure that the novelty of it helped the book sell, though, and that's not insignificant.
"I don't think Persepolis was all it was cracked up to be, either--as I always say when this book comes up, an apples-to-apples comparison with David B.'s Epileptic is not very flattering to Persepolis."
I pretty much agree, Sean.
I want to be like Paul and have people misquote me at random in order to fit their agenda! It's like playing telephone!
Paul: I'm bored with the comic industry.
Fanboys: Paul's bored with superheroes!
Bush: Paul's bored with not spreading freedom and letting the terrorists win!
Liberals: Paul's bored with the war in Iraq!
More Fanboys: Paul's bored with this thread and snobbish attitudes!
Alan: Graeme's bored with me but keeps posting my stuff!
James(!): I'm bored with not eating pie!
Paul: I don't remember what I was bored about anymore!
K-Box: Paul don't you remember you were bored with Bendis!
Paul: But I only read X-Men...
K-Box: That doesn't matter you were bored with him!
Joe Rice: I'm bored with all the hate and negativity.
Neil Kleid: I'm bored and need a date!
Tuckenie: One thing I'm not, is bored.
"I want to be like Paul and have people misquote me at random in order to fit their agenda!"
As a litigator, I'm used to it...
And to weigh in on cheesecake brownies: Delicious, and really not that difficult to make if you've got a food processor.
And for superheroes, like everything else, it's what you make of them. If the story is about superheroes, it's often mediocre. If your story is about something else, but involves superheroes, the sky is the limit. If you're reduced to doing a story about the Hulk disliking rain, though, it's time to reconsider your career options.
Don't you people have jobs?
I mean, I don't. But don't most people? I always wonder abuot that.
"If you're reduced to doing a story about the Hulk disliking rain, though, it's time to reconsider your career options."
And thank Christ he did.
You all missed the point. Someone else will now know the joy of Superf*ckers, simply because you all want to debate on what a prick ADD is. He's converting every one of you. One post at a time. Most of you don't seem to like him, but you all helped him achieve his goal. That must make you feel wonderful.
Welles' dying word?
"Goldbug," surely.
Unicron was fond of Bumblebee?
"Don't you people have jobs? I mean, I don't. But don't most people? I always wonder about that."
Tom, really study your stats: Essentially the comics internet is populated by nerds goofing off at work. Watch them all jump in the pool at 9 AM ET and all shuffle off home at 5 PM PT.
"By the "real world," I mean mainstream America, not the rather small percentage of us who read things like Persepolis and/or House of M. (Because yes, ADD, there are many of us who are actually able to enjoy both ends of the spectrum.) A write-up in Newsweek doesn't make something a huge mainstream success."
Well, yeah, but isn't that sort of a truism? By that standard next to nothing is mainstream other than WalMart, McDonald's, Desperate Housewives, 50 Cent, and Spider-Man 2.
Hmmm, maybe Paul's right about the nature of "mainstream" making a good column...
Actually, I like ADD, and agree with him on many things. I just think he's a little worked up this week. And I don't like or get anything out of Kolchaka's work. I'll probably take a look at Cute Manifesto to give him one more shot, but if nothing happens, I won't waste my time in the future.
And yes, I am goofing off at work. . . .
"Actually, I like ADD, and agree with him on many things. I just think he's a little worked up this week."
You might be surprised how not worked up I actually am. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be loved, even in the passive-aggressive manner Graeme engages in (like I said, at least he doesn't show up at my house or hijack my website). But worked up? Not really. Just enjoying the discussions. And the hits, of course.
Alan and whoever:
"If you're reduced to doing a story about the Hulk disliking rain, though, it's time to reconsider your career options."
"And thank Christ he did."
I actually thought that was the best comic Kochalka ever did (by a country mile), and the best Hulk comic I ever read too, and one of the best comics I've ever read about rage and frustration as well. For me personally, it breaks the Kochalka quality curve so resoundingly that I wonder if I'm seeing more "there" there than is actually, uh, there, but still, great comic.
Sean,
I like the Hulk vs. The Rain story, too, especially in its original incarnation as a bootleg benefit comic for Marvel. But he's done many, many better comics, some of them in The Cute Manifesto, in stores now from Alternative Comics.
My point, I guess, is that I thought that comic was about a whole lot more than just "the Hulk doesn't like rain."
Oh, definitely. It had more theme and subtext than the entire 2005 summer output of DC and Marvel combined.
I hope this entire week ends with a public service announcement from ADD teaching us a valueable lesson about why we shouldn't rampage.
That'd be awesome.
"Tom, really study your stats: Essentially the comics internet is populated by nerds goofing off at work. Watch them all jump in the pool at 9 AM ET and all shuffle off home at 5 PM PT."
Wow, that is just eerie. If I didn't know better I'd think I was on my own personal version of the Truman Show.
And that's one to grow on."
"Don't you people have jobs?"
I do, but it's not that time-intensive, barring a major system failure or worm outbreak.
Kidding aside, books like Persepolis are in the process of being "mainstreamed", aloght I'll leave it it to the hard numbers people to debate by which degree so far. My sister-in-law just got her master's of library science from Chapel Hill, and part of the curriculum was dedicated to graphic novels and trades. Persepolis, Blankets, and Ted Rall's To Afghanistan and Back (which is actually a prose/cartoon/GN hybrid, but why quibble?) were three books that she specifically mentioned being covered.
"aloght"? Mother of pearl.
Andrew Weiss: a case study in ideas exceeding typing skills.
30 posts to go until lucky 200. WHo's gonna win that shiny new hardcover or trade paperback?
Pecan pie for me, thanks.
K-Box--how can someone "basically flat-out" do anything, and why are people so shocked by hyperbolic statements about people or their businesses dying? I guess I'd better be careful singing "Rockabye Baby" to you tonight--lots of death in that one.
Hibbs--you're smarter than that. Of course superhero and altcomics purchasers are not mutually exclusive, and obviously most surviving stores make most of their bread on superhero comics. That has nothing to do with most stores not doing a good job at a) selling the superhero-dominated stock they have through diligent study of the market and friendly, courteous staff (the raison d'etre of your long-running excellent column), nor do most stores do anything to grow their customer base and existing customer expenditures beyond what these customers are used to, as evidenced by, among other things, the rise of manga in bookstores and newsstands well over growth in the direct market.
No hardcovers for you, Allen, don't even try it!
Anybody else having flashbacks to ADD's meltdowns on the Warren Ellis Forum?
But the real question is:
Who's Omar?
So ADD's mad because we're rampaging against his rampage? I don't get it. Is this because I like Marvel comics?
Google "Omar" and "Usenet." Man, you comics nerds are lazy.
This is like the chatrooms of yesteryear. I love it!
I'm not mad, I swear. Really!
He's not mad so long as we die and get the fuck out of the way of the future.
I know that I, personally, have held the future back by at least seven months.
You're not mad? Really? Despite writing this tome?
Mad as in crazy or mad as in angry?
Well, you're not angry, maybe...
Dammit, I meant this one!
Goddammit, just copy and paste this:
www.beaucoupkevin.com/images/youlldienext.jpg
Haloscan, you can die next.
He means this one.
You're welcome Kevin.
187 on a mother $&##%! comic!
I am not, I swear, not a complete moron. I dunno why Haloscan decided my URLS needed to self-reference.
My wrist hurts.
(Thanks, Shane.)
"I am not, I swear, not a complete moron. I dunno why Haloscan decided my URLS needed to self-reference."
Infinite Rampage!!! We're caught in time loop. LETS DO THE TIME WARP AGAIN!!!!
There is the theory of the moebius...a twist in the fabric of space, where time becomes a loop.
...where time becomes a loop.
...where time becomes a loop.
...where time becomes a loop.
"LETS DO THE TIME WARP AGAIN!!!!"
I didn't like it the first time. Dare I say it bored me? Unlike Phantom of the Paradise, which is utter genius.
Anyone want to help out with my wrist?
(Well, this gets more hits than my own pathetic little blog...)
backwards!! pool a semoceb emit erehw. Erom on egapmar!
And, yes, James, cheesecake beats pie. Cheesecake especially beats Cheese Pie, because Cheese Pie is just gross. I loves me some cottage cheese, but I'd never say baking it in a crust is a great idea.
What if I make my Cheese Pie with marscapone and a pecan meal crust?
Hm, I may not be able to wait until November for some Pumpkin Cheese Pie... now where's the notebook where I noted how I made it?
Alan, have you thought about shifting CBG to a proper web hoster ?
A flat, text driven site like that shouldn't cost you more than $100 a year to run (unless you're doing over 100,000 unique users hitting 50+ pages each a day).
This is post one-ninety-something.
I get the feeling that, at this point, Graeme could take a day off by simply posting "ADD - Paul O'Brien. Discuss."
Let it simmer for a couple of hours. Read through 200 plus posts.
And then create a thread the next dedicated to the comments of the previous day's post.
Repeat until cooked medium-well.
Carpal tunnel prevention. Let's discuss. The wrist you save may be your own.
"Repeat until cooked medium-well."
I like mine rare.
I think Shane just Zatanna-d us all. Hopefully it was a spell to mind-wipe this past week of discussions.
"Carpal tunnel prevention."
Have you had any of these problems in you hand, wrist or arm? Burning, Tingling, Pain, Fatigue, Weakness of Grip, Loss of Dexterity, Stiffness, Soreness, Cramping, Numbness, Coldness, Swelling, Throbbing, Atrophy of the Hand. In advancing cases, you may feel pain or cramping around the base of the thumb or your thumb may become nonfunctional. Symptoms may strike long after activity has ended, often during sleep.
Don't ignore them! Most victims are surprised by the swiftness with which a few mild occurrences can degrade into a long-term problem. Many find that the symptoms take less and less effort to produce then just never go away. They are usually the consequence of a Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI) such as Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (CTS). Surgery has risks and is often not a cure. Many people will never overcome it once it becomes severe.
What if I make my Cheese Pie with marscapone and a pecan meal crust?
That might be better. To be honest, the only cheese pie I ever tried was at the Snydersville Diner in Snydersville, PA, and it was just baked cottage cheese. A friend of mine ordered it thinking it was the same thing as cheesecake, and was too pig-headed to admit that he didn't like it, so he ate the whole thing (except for the bite I took out of curiosity. Man, I love cottage cheese, but that made me want to shit out my own intestines).
"More theme"?
Anyway. ADD or Sean, have you done or do you know of a critique of the story explaining what you get out of it? I'd be interested in reading that (so long as it doesn't accuse me of lacking life experience or being afraid if I disagree, of course). I'm not looking for a review stating it's good, I'm looking for something that explains in what way it is good. Because honestly, I saw nothing in Kolchaka's story that I would consider bringing anything new to the mix that Thomas or Wein hadn't done 20 years previously.
Rest your hands frequently, especially when any tingling, numbness, pain, cramping, etc. occurs.
Try and control your mouse with the lightest possible grip.
Rest your palms, not your wrist, on a wrist-rest or the desktop.
When using a keyboard/mouse, your hands should be even or slightly lower than your elbows. An adjustable keyboard tray mounted under the desktop may be necessary.
Keep your hands in-line with your forearms as much as possible, not bent in/out or up/down at the wrist.
Rest your elbows on your chair's armrests and adjust them so the weight of your arms is supported by the armrests, not supported by your shoulders.
Use a foot rest if your feet aren't flat on the floor.
The top of your monitor should be about eye level so you aren't bending your neck up or too far down.
Sit upright so your head is above your shoulders. Don't slouch forward.
Take frequent breaks and do stretching exercises to replenish blood flow which is restricted by continuous muscle use, especially involving your hands.
Alter your posture from time to time but keep within the guidelines of correct sitting most of the time.
Sit so the natural hollow stays in your lower back. A good adjustable chair should allow this.
Position your monitor and keyboard in front of you, not to the side.
Use larger barreled pens (1/2"+ diameter) to make them easier to grasp.
Don't wear wrist splints for extended periods during the day.
Some muscles may atrophy.
Don't type with long fingernails.
Cut back or discontinue the use of tobacco products.
People who outline the causes of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome without providing solutions should die. Now. Please.
(Unless they bring me some Dr. Pibb.)
I read a comic once, and rather enjoyed it. Can I join in now?
Can't you all see you're breaking this internet in half? I hate you all! I'll be in my room!
I think Steve was # 200 btw.
That's me above.
Hey Graeme, is it October yet? Yeesh.
Hey Graeme, is it October yet? Yeesh.
It's always October in my heart.
Is this the wrong time to ask ADD if he's had a chance to send me the GL: Rebirth books yet?
I heard that if you turn off all the lights, hold a flashlight under your chin, and chant "Alan David Doane!!" five times in the mirror, he'll come forth from the nether regions of disgruntled indie comic obscurity and deliver a fiendish punishment which is gauged by the number of comics books that you have purchased which involve tieing into and/or actively participating into an editor mandated cross over that happened after the X-tinction Agenda.
That's what I heard, but I'm too scared to try it.
So if i say i m bored with comics will you all be my friends?
SWcott,
Yes, they're in the mail, and the other goodies too.
Steve, e-mail me your address if you want your prize, alandaviddoane AT gmail DOT com .
Spencer,
If you'll take a substitute indie snob, I'm always available for roadtrips.
Only if you agree to read Bumperboy!
Yeah, don't want to drive to Simi Valley. Its Crapsville here. But you can write an angry letter to Tom about it, if you want.
Cool. Hang in there, Alan! You won't hate me if I like them, will you?
ADD, I'm serious about being interested in a critique of Hulk/Rain by the way.
You know what this place needs? A Joe Quesada/Brian Michael Bendis conference, as reported by Newsarama, explaining how bi-weekly involves waiting more than 2 weeks to get said bi-weekly books.
Make it so, Matt Brady.
Damn it. I missed my opportunity to win a comic.
The mainstream is a meanstream.
Discuss.
"ADD, I'm serious about being interested in a critique of Hulk/Rain by the way."
I know, and that would make a good piece for KOCHALKAHOLIC!, too, so, don't be surprised if it happens sooner than you might expect.
See, he's sending out more books! you people just keep falling into his fiendish little plots and devices. You are but pawns to the will of Doane!!!!!!!
Steve didn't write for his prize, so I guess I'll give him another couple of hours, but I'd hate to think people are losing interest in our thread here. I'll just wither away without the rage and/or adoration, which of course is like oxygen to me. Candy-flavoured oxygen.
Sean, maybe we just need a word for a moderate success to differentiate from a super successful form of entertainment and a successful indie form. Or do we just gauge smaller successes differently because there's no hope that they'll ever be anything more? Sounds like how people gauge current comic sales. It also shows judges of indie sales fall into the same holes as mainstream ones.
Right, people are just debating which is more "mainstream," while others don't realize that mainstream "in particular circles," isn't mainstream at all.
On another note, just tell anyone deriding your current form of entertainment, I'll be whatever I wanna do!
Phillip J. Fry, I love you.
Is there any better proof than this entire tempest in a teapot that each and every one of us is just as bored with comics and comic news as Paul O'Brien?
Unfortunately it's all grown rather boring in and of itself. Somebody please toss another rhetorical firebomb so that I can be entertained for the next two hours of work, please.
Okay...
Hmmm....
I can't think of anything besides the glaringly obvious.
http://moonbatcentral.com/wordpr...ordpress/?
p=976
Now THIS is a rampage.
It is getting dull, damn it.
All right, no more screwing around. SIGNED ALAN MOORE HARDCOVER to the first person who can compose a convincing, objective explanation of why Graeme has such a hard-on for me, using his many anti-me posts here on FBR and my own message board posts, reviews, columns -- whatever either one of us has written about the other, or about anything in general.
SIGNED ALAN MOORE HARDCOVER. Show me you can do more than bitch and joke around, people, help me understand why Graeme takes such glee in attacking me every chance he gets. If your conclusion is that I have it coming, that's fine, but, I want to see a serious, as-objective-as-possible critique of our online "fued," or whatever you want to call it, that sheds some light on why, even though he says I bore him, I keep getting mentioned here.
SIGNED ALAN MOORE HARDCOVER. Not kidding. I'll leave the window open on this opportunity for 48 hours, to make sure you have time to do the proper research and perhaps consult psychiatric advisors.
GO.
Well, that's certainly intimidating as hell, isn't it?
"I'd hate to think people are losing interest in our thread here. I'll just wither away without the rage and/or adoration, which of course is like oxygen to me. Candy-flavoured oxygen."
Here comes both:
1) It's flavored, goddammit, not flavoured! We beat those Brits fair and square back in the 1700s so we could drop that incredibly annyoing, ever-so-twee "u." It's like the clove cigarettes of word spellings, for fuck's sake.
2) I enjoy the revamped Galaxy. Any way to get more of that column where the guy pulls out a comic from his collection and rereads it, to decide if he keeps it or gets rid of it? I like that column (and others, too, but that one seems to be missing lately).
Hope that tastes like a Mars bar (in this case, the British version, since they're better).
"I'd hate to think people are losing interest in our thread here. I'll just wither away without the rage and/or adoration, which of course is like oxygen to me. Candy-flavoured oxygen."
Here comes both:
1) It's flavored, goddammit, not flavoured! We beat those Brits fair and square back in the 1700s so we could drop that incredibly annyoing, ever-so-twee "u." It's like the clove cigarettes of word spellings, for fuck's sake.
2) I enjoy the revamped Galaxy. Any way to get more of that column where the guy pulls out a comic from his collection and rereads it, to decide if he keeps it or gets rid of it? I like that column (and others, too, but that one seems to be missing lately).
Hope that tastes like a Mars bar (in this case, the British version, since they're better).
...that sheds some light on why, even though he says I bore him, I keep getting mentioned here.
Man, that's too easy, considering the amount of evidence in this thread alone! It's like Omarosa wondering why people think she's a duplicitous bitch.
Graeme's a superhero fan. We're very good at being bored, obsessive, and angry at the same time.
"Any way to get more of that column where the guy pulls out a comic from his collection and rereads it, to decide if he keeps it or gets rid of it?"
Do you mean Joe Rybandt's column, the one that ran early in the year? His time, unfortunately for CBG, is currently consumed with his family, his job, and his political campaign. I miss it too, though.
I've got a picture of two guys humping a melon.
AND NOW FOR SPOILERS INTERMISSION.
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Leslie Thompkins let Spoiler die to show Batman that he was endangering his sidekicks! GASP!
S
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END INTERMISSION
"Show me you can do more than bitch and joke around, people, help me understand why Graeme takes such glee in attacking me every chance he gets."
He's just jealous of your stigmata.
Nope, I meant the Penny Foolish/Pop Culture Gadabout blog guy (unless that's Rybandt). What kinda cracked me up about it was this: In the two or three examples I read, he couldn't bring himself to get rid of anything, even when they were Star Wars comics.
Alan: Graeme hates you because there's going to be a party and he might get lucky.
re: those Batman spoilers: FUCK. OFF. WILLINGHAM.
Complexity:
Sean, maybe we just need a word for a moderate success to differentiate from a super successful form of entertainment and a successful indie form. Or do we just gauge smaller successes differently because there's no hope that they'll ever be anything more? Sounds like how people gauge current comic sales. It also shows judges of indie sales fall into the same holes as mainstream ones.
Right, people are just debating which is more "mainstream," while others don't realize that mainstream "in particular circles," isn't mainstream at all.
This reminds me of how, before the first Spidey film made superheroes cool for Hollywood, I used to grouse that the 250,000 or so habitual buyers of comics in this country were still seen as a hopelessly insular domain of basement-dwelling Simpsons Comic Book Guys, while the 250,000 or so habitual buyers of indie-rock albums were the lauded and lionized Future Of Good Music. I think it gets back to that "impactful" thing--the 90,000 Shins records that get sold are bought by more influential people than the 90,000 Ultimate X-Men comics that get sold.
"don't you people have jobs?"
i do, and dammit, today is a busy day. damn you, 245 rampage comments!
Here's my thoughts: Graeme, much like myself and others, is sympathetic to your avowed mission. But your abrasive personality rubs us the wrong way. When we laugh at your excesses, you start your whole Krakatoa routine. Then, instead of trying to put out the flames, you spit on the people being burned and expect them to thank you for enlightening them. Then you deny that there was ever an eruption, despite all the scorched earth.
(If I was a bit more pugnacious, I would say that there's a reality deficit there comparable to the one the Bush administration has re: Iraq. But why bring politics into this?)
And we don't (okay, I don't) like James Kochalka. Never have, never will. And I don't think this indicates some severe personality disorder on my part.
"Nope, I meant the Penny Foolish/Pop Culture Gadabout blog guy..."
Ah, Bill Sherman -- yep, those reviews will continue to be posted on an irregular basis, so far as I know.
"That has nothing to do with most stores not doing a good job at...."
I don't think it is "most" stores. If you look at the average or typical (art comic, manga, whatever people want to fuss over) on a per-location basis (number of copies sold divided by number of venues) the Direct Market sells more copies than other channels.
Those copies are also significantly more profitible for the publishers.
I very much think that "most" stores DO THIER BEST to satisfy thier customer's wants. Thier VERY best.
I also think it's a whole lot harder to "retrain" one's customer base than you are suggesting. A really damn sight whole much harder, and the rewards are much less direct and immediate than you or ADD would suggest.
The years they come out, EIGHTBALL or OPTIC NERVE are generally my best selling periodical for the year -- but X-MEN comes out every month. Sometimes twice a month, at that.
When you're talking about the economic engine of a business, it's difficult to say "Just subside on 'art'!" because it's pretty clear to me that the number of firms that can do so exclusively (whether in comics, or not) are few and far between, and, in almost all cases, are struggling financially.
Further, an awful lot of the critical darlings of the pundits don't, y'know, actually have much of an audience in the real world. There's more than one book mentioned in this thread that I stock, display, talk up, and promote that sells pretty badly despite all of that. And that's in the stores that really really fucking care.
-B
Try harder, Hibbs!
"When you're talking about the economic engine of a business, it's difficult to say "Just subside on 'art'!" because it's pretty clear to me that the number of firms that can do so exclusively (whether in comics, or not) are few and far between, and, in almost all cases, are struggling financially."
For example: Fantagraphics. I know there were other factors involved in their financial troubles over the years (bookstore distributor collapses, direct-market distributor wars and all that), and I sure do love a lot of the comics they put out, but it's worth noting that they were kept from collapse at two critical junctures not by Eightball and Acme Novelty Library but by porn and Peanuts. I'm not saying they wouldn't have found a way without Snoopy and bondage comics, but still. Of course, to my way of thinking, Peanuts is "art," so I now have no idea what the hell my point was.
All I know is Hibbs' store rocks, I used to shop there all the time when I lived in the state to the south of here. Hibbs winz!
SWEET CHRISTMAS THIS IS WORSE THAN THE LAST ONE!
Now that I got that off my chest, Jake W I already tried getting them upset over DC destroying a character beyond death in the most incomprehensible and stupid moment of a year in which that's saying something, but they're all in denial. I only partially blame Willingham for this editorial BULLSHIT.
..and there are some of us who just want entertaining superhero crap to read while eating at Papa Gino's with the wife.
As it stands now, my wife's indie comics stack on pizza 'n' comics night is about four times the size of my sad superhero comics pile.
Alan, Graeme doesn't like you because whether you intend it or not your comments make you look like a prick and also because your comments cause over SIX HUNDRED comments on his site that makes fun of this sort of thing.
Gail Simone has an interview on Newsarama!
ADD: Graeme finds you an abrasive ass. Do I win?
I win, as I've been looking for an abrasive ass for a long time. I didn't know that Alan was helping me on that search, so great!
Goodbye crazy people.
Dniwer dnik eb.
The "Alienate Dorks With Insults, Then Win Them Back With Free Mediocre Comics" schtick was a lot funnier when Larry Young did it.
I've never posted before but I read through the entire thread and I wanted to say...
Matt, I like pie.
Don't forget, lazy emo rockers helped save Fantagraphics too! There were more than a few benefit type concerts around Seattle/Portland for them by bands who I am far too lazy to list right now.
Oh, and Hibbs wins.
so... Leslie Thompkins... kinda a bitch?
We're only at two hundred and sixty something posts.
Okay, ground rule here. Graeme is the house and the house always wins. Congratulations, Graeme.
and the house always wins.
Is that why Gregory House solves all those medical cases?
Graeme does not win because i have found someone else to go see FANTASTIC FOUR with, and she has much better legs.
Care to argue with that, McMillan?!!!
>> Busiek wins! >>
Woot!
This -- and more people trying CONAN -- are clearly what matters!
Plus, as the guy who told Tom Brevoort ha should buy and republish the COOBER SKEEBER Kochalka Hulk story, and faxed him a copy of it to make sure he did, I claim victory twice!
kdb
Ugh - I get a precious namecheck and it has to be a comparison with Bill Jemas? Well, I'll take what I can get. All caps next time, please, Alan.
Back on topic (such as it is): Paul O'Brien can usually do no wrong as far as I'm concerned - he's the only foreigner I have any use for, really. Uh, him and Graeme, of course. But I'm also one of the mostly-silent majority that sees how eager some of ADD's detractors are to jump on any bandwagon to side against him. I've disagreed with him in the past but to portray him as crazy is just being unreasonable. He's just passionate about comics is all. Many of us can relate to getting a little more worked up in a comics argument than we should have, surely?
*CRACK*
[...] Why are people so shocked by hyperbolic statements about people or their businesses dying?
You're intentionally missing the point. O'Brien accused Doane of using hyperbole and sweeping generalizations to attack those whose views differ from his. Doane said he didn't. I cited one of the most glaring examples of the fact that Doane had actually used hyperbole and unfair generalizations in such a fashion. And in trying to criticize me, all you've done is proven my point.
Assclown.
I think I won because I just read Conan and burned my copy of that piece of plague ridden rat shit Batman issue.
So Kurt, since it's your fault I read the Kochalka Hulk story, any interest in describing what you thought was good about it and why?
Why's everybody so upset about Alan David Doane? He's done some great songs and I don't see why he's getting involved in comics commentary. C'mon, Mr. Doane sing "'59 Cadillac '57 Chevy" or "Willie, Waylon and Me" and...
Oh wait, that's David Allen Coe I'm thinking of.
Never mind.
"Ugh - I get a precious namecheck and it has to be a comparison with Bill Jemas?"
OMAR LOSES.
Elobrephy htiw nwoD.
Damn the man! Save the Empire!!
"yhperbole?"
"Comics has its Miss Haversham, and her
name is Fanboy Rampage."
Please make this the tag line for a day!
I beat Carpal Tunnel by ditching the horrible mouse and using a Wacom Tablet, both at work AND home.
I have no problems with ADD outside of his seemingly uncontrollable zeal. But he's gotten me to pick up a lot of good comics so I can forgive him his eccentricities. Until I get on his wrong side anyway
How many sharks is fanboy rampage going to jump? And how many of them are going to be ADD??
How many sharks is fanboy rampage going to jump? And how many of them are going to be ADD??
There will be 129 ADD sharks that Fanboy Rampage is going to jump out of 324 actual sharks. Supposedly for better, more accurate results you have to use the shark vs snark equation.
POOP stinks, but pie smells good.
>> So Kurt, since it's your fault I read the Kochalka Hulk story, any interest in describing what you thought was good about it and why? >>
If you don't respond to the story, it's unlikely that anyone can analyze it for you. All that'll happen is that you'll say, "I don't see it."
But there's something about all that rage against a force of nature, the incomprehension and helplessness of the Hulk, an avatar of strength and power, that makes it all very human, simultaneously funny, sad and tender, and feels both like a universal statement on the human condition and something that gets right at the heart of the classic childlike Hulk.
kdb
"If you don't respond to the story, it's unlikely that anyone can analyze it for you."
I'm with the K-Man. It's only a perfect encapsulation of the Hulk's entire existence since 196whatever. But don't worry about it if you didn't get it. Just because ADD liked it doesn't mean it's totally worthless. Even Hitler had a girlfriend, you know?
K-Box calls OMAR an assclown, then finishes up with a smiley-face. WE ALL WIN.
Hmm. I definitely see what you're saying, Kurt and Jim. I guess that I already got those observations and ideas out of Hulk stories by the likes of Roy Thomas and Len Wein, and was expecting or hoping for something more. Not that I necessarily get anything more than that out of other Hulk stories, but since it called out to some people so strongly, I figured there was something more subtle that I might have been missing.
Thanks for the responses.
Now that my head's exploded from reading that crap, I've come to the realization that comic book nerds are worse than star wars/star trek nerds. We (you) are fighting over whether or not our particular favorite comic genre is better than yours. They're fucking comics. You're allowed to like different types of comics without pissing all over somebody else's choice. I think romance novels are worthless, and subtract from our valuable toilet paper supply. I don't, however, storm the local Borders and attack the 50 year old slob drooling on the Harlequins. I may laugh at her (him?), but I simply continue on to the sci-fi books. Or the computer books. Or the poetry books in the hopes of checking out hot college chicks. They're all books - books are good. Yeah books. Hey, guess what, they're all comics. Comics are good. Yeah comics. The Complete Bone sits right next to Superheroes & Seamonsters on my shelf. Adam Strange sits next to that, followed by Powers, Top Ten, Sharknife, Transmet, and way too many other f'ing books. I can mix & match however I want - who the hell cares? You people seriously need to get laid more - amazing how silly everything seems after you clear out the old testicles. I'm off to search for 'Net porn, it may actually be slightly more productive than readig this drivel.
"WE ALL WIN."
Except you, blimp boy. [6 Mossburg shots to Doane's cranium] It's an exclusive club, fatso! Oh well!]]
Man, reading through this discussion reminds me of that time I lost a bar bet with Saddam Hussein and had to drink a gallon of elf-piss. Oh wait, that never happened... and if any of you have any sense, we can all pretend this never happened either.
God, I can't believe I sat and read all of that. I am SOOOO going to get fired.
NOTED IRONY: ADD complaining about all the attention he's getting here and then bribing people with free trades for more attention.
I was planning on buying THE CUTE MANIFESTO this weekend, but I'm going to go and buy GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH instead because of this thread. And I don't even even like Green Lantern.
Yikes. Time to address three mighty points in this enormous thread.
Firstly, Rampage is only going to jump one shark, but that shark is Hook Jaw: http://www.sevenpennynightmare.c.../
wholestory.htm
So it had better jump it well, or it is SCREWED.
Second point: Nietzche. Rampage has become the monster. Ooo-wa!
Third Point: As some people have said - these are just comics. Jeez.
Yeah, who cares about comics? Oh, hang on, it's the only shared interest of EVERYONE on here.
Wow. Four more comments to 300.
Or is that three.
Nope. Looks like two.
I don't like pie. At all.
But looks can be deceiving. Only one more to go.
Three Hundred and First Post!
Yeah, Rob, but Mike was padding the results. I'll call you #300. Go ahead and e-mail me your mailing info and I will send you a prize for keeping the flame alive.
I missed 300 by 1?! That is so unfair (especially because I wasn't even counting!)
Funny thing: some professors here at the university are sending mails to the entire staff bickering about active pluralism. It's like high-minded flame-warring!
Wait 'til they get going on Plural Activism!
Is that better or worse than Singular Passivism? (hey, that sounds like voters' behavior >:D)
Dear Lord this post has gotten ADD to the point of sending Rob comics! Rampage!!! LOST!!!
Kurt:
"But there's something about all that rage against a force of nature, the incomprehension and helplessness of the Hulk, an avatar of strength and power, that makes it all very human, simultaneously funny, sad and tender, and feels both like a universal statement on the human condition and something that gets right at the heart of the classic childlike Hulk."
Thank you Kurt! That's perfect.
I also think that making the Hulk the protagonist removes my usual problem with Kochalka's work, which is the sense that he's altcomix's Narcissus--I've never read any autobio cartoonist who seems more in love with himself, and I've read a lot of autobio cartoonists. Add on a thick layer of self-conscious tweeness (who can forget the time he compared the Columbia disaster to a "beautiful" "crippled flying unicorn"?) and you've got work that generally doesn't appeal to me. But the Hulk strip was just sad, sad, sad, a depiction of a character whose inexhaustible rage will forever isolate him from the rest of the world. I love it.
Where can I find this Kochalka Hulk story?
It's in the 2001 Incredible Hulk Annual.
Well, that's just great, now I want a stupid Hulk annual.
Thanks a lot, guys!
Rob,
Better check that package for anthrax.
Peter, all part of the Fanboy Rampage service!
To give something back to the crowd:
Everybody's read Don Rosa's Life and Times of $crooge McDuck, right? It's only like the best comic book story EVER :D
(so I recommend it. Somewhat ;p)
In a recent issue, Gemstone published Don Rosa's Crown of the Crusader King/The Old Castle's Other Secret two-parter. I only recently read it and want to reread it already again. Everybody hail Don Rosa.
No matter what happens, in my mind, Don Rosa always wind.
I agree. Don Rosa has never disappointed me. At the very least I laugh, and in the long adventure stories, I usually learn some history, and he normally tosses in a heartwarming moment or two.
His older non-duck stuff (Pertwillaby Papers, Don Rosa's Comics and Stories, and Captain Kentucky) is pretty good, too. I know someone printed hardcover collections sometime in the last several years, so some comics shops may still have them if you're lucky.
>> "Comics has its Miss Haversham, and her name is Fanboy Rampage."
>> Please make this the tag line for a day!
But spell it "Havisham," as The Official Handbook of the Dickens Universe clearly states!
kdb
"Sad, sad, sad, a depiction of a character whose inexhaustible rage will forever isolate him from the rest of the world."
Thank God there's no one like that in comics!
Hey, you know how Morrison and Ellis (I think) talked about "pop comics" for some time?
I'd like to posit that Scrooge stories done by Barks or Rosa are the prime example of what could be a pop comic. Super-accessible, full of fun and action, and with a heart.
No double standards or mean-spiritedness in a Scrooge story (which sounds strangely ironic).
Very interested in non-Scrooge Rosa stuff, I'll check it out, thanks :D
Man am I happy I haven't posted in this thread.
Well, we were happy you hadn't either. But now the thread's probably dead.
Thanks a lot!
Ouch! What'd I do?
I'd call it a mercy killing and move on, but I just conrtibuted to its continuing existence. D'oh!
END CREDITS!
HOUSE OF INFINITE RAMPAGE
STARRING
**GRAEME MCMILLAN**
**PAUL O'BRIEN**
**ALAN DAVID DOANE**
**TOM SPURGEON**
ALSO STARRING
Kurt Busiek
Kirk Boxleitner
Christopher Allen
Augie De Blieck Jr.
Jeff Albertson
Brian Hibbs
Michael Netzer
Neil Kleid
Guy LeCharles Gonzalez
AND
Diana
Shane
Matches Malone
Marc-Oliver Frisch
Stefan
Dan Coyle
Joe Rice
Beaucoopkevin
Rob Schamberger
Chris Brown
Johnny Bacardi
abhay
Mark
Chris
Prince Brian
Rob Schamberger
Ed Cunard
Erech
Logan
Sean Collins
Chris Galdieri
Alex Hopkinson
Matt M.
Shawn Hoke
Matthew Craig
Tony Rollinson
John Fellows
MarkNP
Goodrich
Christopher Jones
Kevin Rapp
Jim Treacher
Kevin Melrose
Matt B
Nik
Steve Pheley
Andrew Weiss
Mark H
james(!!!)
John Sokol
kl
Spencer
Scott Rowland
Fin Fang Doom
Meme
Lyle Masaki
C.H. Wilson
Milo
Peter Adriaenssens
Christopher Jones
Complexity
Marc-Oliver Frisch
Omar
Martin Hall
Kreel
Jimbo
Greg Judson
Alexandre Gratis
DogRobber
jdonelson.nyc
Brad Curran
Jake W.
SFX by ILM and HaloScan.com
SPECIAL THANKS TO
Graeme, Tom, ADD, and Paul's parents because without them we would not have excellent quality internet posting entertainment on 8/25/05
LiveRack Webhosting
Alan Moore for providing a signed hardcover to Alan David Doane, among other things
Grant Morrison
James Kochalka for his HULK 2001 ANNUAL story
Don Rosa
Gail Simone
Erik Larsen
Mark Waid
Neal Adams
Tony Isabella
Scott McCloud
Rob Liefeld
Rich Johnston
Beau Smith
Brian Michael Bendis, Kubiak, THWIP!, Rangerchic, Taxman, Pat Loika, Taki Soma, JoeAR, Bloodyheck, You Killed Hawkeye, and the rest of Jinxworld
Joe Quesada
Dan Didio
Gary Groth, Kim Thompson, and the rest of Fantagraphics
Gareb Shamus and his Wizardworld
Todd McFarlane and TMP
Marc Silvestri, Jim McLauchlin, and the rest of Top Cow
Bill Willingham and the Bat-Editors for the revelation of BATMAN #644
Nick Locking, Andrew Wheeler, Travis G. Johnson and the V for their "Shit Spoilers" thread
Heidi McDonald
Arune Singh, Jonah Weiland, and the rest of CBR
Geoff Johns, Judd Winnick, Greg Rucka, Brad Meltzer, and the rest of the Infinite Crisis crew
Warren Ellis
Robert Kirkman
Jesse Baker
Micah Wright
Dave Sim
John Byrne
Howard Mackie
Chuck Austen
Seth MacFarlane
Hook Jaw
Alton Brown
Colin Mochrie
Ryan Stiles
Steve Carell
Ben Stiller
Hank Azaria
William H. Macy
Eric Stephenson
Hannibal Tabu
Allen Hui
Alex Hamby
James Tonn
Matt Brady
Greg Holland
David Schnebly
Rick Veitch
Rick Olney
Danny Hellman
Jack Venooker
Bill Clinton
George W. Bush
Portal of Evil and its sites Wicked Small Games and POE News
Larry Ladhands
Wee Kenny T.
Greg T. Winters
Jason Katzman
Aaron Archer
Mark Millar, Mark Peyton, Frank Davis, and the team at Millarworld
Fortress Maximus and his brothers Grand Maximus and Brave Maximus
Omega Prime
Zartan
Spock
And of course, YOU READERS.
GOOD NIGHT EVERYBODY!!
*Standing Ovation*
(gets up to leave)
...what, was that it? I want my money back!
Usually, they have out-takes over the credits or something.
Wait. This isn't Cannonball Run 2!
fuck up sex
this is fukcing shit you asshole go have sex.fuck your mamas
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