Southern Appeal - "With a rebel yell, they cried more, more, more!"
Don't forget this
You mean to tell me that there are Catholic priests who engage in horrific sinful behavior. Why I am shocked. Shocked I say. I thought once you joined the Church or became a priest that immnuized you from sin.
I was just giving you s***, although the story is not funny.
Just out of curiosity, do you think the Church owes an apology or explanation for the Church's role in the genocide, both active and passive?
I don't know that the Church ought to be held responsible for these sorts of things, but they don't seem to do a very good job of repudiating them or holding their own representatives accountable.
Feddie,
I have to say that I find this whole religious litmus test a bit disturbing, i.e the inference that you can’t be a REAL Catholic and vote for Kerry or support abortion. As everyone knows, I have no love for Sen. Kerry or abortion. Nevertheless, I have a problem with people making sweeping judgments about his, and his supporters, spiritual condition.
I find Sen. Kerry’s position on abortion morally wrong. However, I don’t think that has invested me with the divine powers necessary to look into his heart and make proncements about his religious life. Such issues touch on the most personal aspects of an individual’s relationship with Christ.
It is one thing to say that Sen. Kerry’s position is contrary to church doctrine, it is another thing to declare or imply that he, and his supporters, are somehow not REAL Catholics.
As you know I am not a Catholic. Consequently, I admit that I may be ignorant of the fact that such declarations may be consistent with church practice and tradition. If so, then I apologize for my ignorance. Nevertheless, as a Baptist I find such things distasteful. I am proud that there is no such organization as “Baptists against Kerry.” I like to think that God loves the liberals as much as the conservatives and that they should be welcome to worship with the rest of us. Maybe over time they will come to a better understanding of the Lord’s teachings. I don’t think we help bring that about by inferring that one’s choice of political candidate or policy position prevents them from becoming a member.
Furthermore, what happens when the Pope condemns, for instance, some U.S. military action? Do you then condemn Catholic supporters of the military action as FAKE Catholics? It just seems to me that this sort of thing can easily be used as a convenient tool for partisan political purposes both left and right.
I do not mean to insult any of my Catholic brothers and sisters. After seeing a number of posts in this vein I felt I had to address this issue.
Joel-
It is not an issue of dem or repub; it is an issue of fundamental Church teaching.
You're right. I cannot look into Kerry's soul, but I can look at his actions. Kerry has, for some time now, willfully chosen to ignore Church teaching on the issue of abortion and other issues that concern the sanctity of life. By doing so, he has chosen to separate himself from fellowship with the Church.
You seem to be under the impression that I am casting Kerry out into the wilderness, when he has done that to himself.
When a Catholic willfully thumbs his or her nose at fundamental Church teaching, he is, in essence, thumbing his nose at Christ. I realize you don't see it that way, but Catholics do.
As for this:
"Furthermore, what happens when the Pope condemns, for instance, some U.S. military action? Do you then condemn Catholic supporters of the military action as FAKE Catholics? It just seems to me that this sort of thing can easily be used as a convenient tool for partisan political purposes both left and right."
Catholics are not bound by every statement or belief held by the Pope. We are bound by Church teaching (e.g., re: abortion). Now, if the Pope is speaking ex cathedra (something that is rarely if ever done) that is an entirely different matter.
BTW, it is extremely important--especially in a country that is historically protestant with built in prejudices against Catholics--for devout Catholics to speak out against those who suggest that one can be a devout Catholic and hold pro-abortion views. Catholics and Christians have a duty to be witnessess for the truth.
And if you didn't visit this link, you should:
http://www.catholicexchange.com/
...h_09282004.html
I hope this clarifies matters.
Feddie,
I appreciate your response and it does clear quite a bit up. I do have two questions. First, does Kerry ignore church teaching on abortion if, while declaring abortion immoral or personally immoral (or whatever distinction he wishes to make), he believes that it is a moral choice that must be made by the individual and not dictated by the government. For instance, one should not have an abortion but one should arrive at that decision with out the compulsion of the state.
Now I do not adhere to or agree with such reasoning. I do wonder if one could hold such a position and still be consistent with church Doctrine?
You mentioned a built in prejudices against Catholics in this country. What do you mean?
Joel-
Kerry does more than say government ought not to address the issue, he embraces abortion (just take a look at his voting record on the issue). Moreover, if one really believes that a fetus is a human being, the I fail to see how he can take the position that government ought not intervene, or explicitly empower women to snuff out their own children.
Finally, although things are much better for Catholics in the 21st Century, there are still many of my fellow Christians who are under the silly (and false) impression that Catholics aren't Christians. That is changing, but many still hold that belief.
Now, it is true that many people who claim to be Catholic are not Christians, but the same could be said of Baptists or any other Christian denomination.
Hey, what about my question?
Why is everyone ignoring me?
Eugene-
I don't know all the facts, but I don't see how it can hurt to offer some expression of sadness regarding such a horrific situation.
If you are interested, you might want to read this book
Eugene: Complicity in genocide is horrible. What do you think of the Supreme Court's complicity in the genocide of 40+ million lives via Roe v Wade?
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