Southern Appeal - "With a rebel yell, they cried more, more, more!"
At this point, why should we really care about what Sullivan thinks about anything?
Paul-
We shouldn't. Unfortunately, a lot of people read him and take his silly views seriously.
To abuse the death of Fr. Judge, a true 9/11 hero, is sickening.
But since when has Sullivan had a scrap of decency?
I'm totally out of it. What's the deal of the picture of the firemen pulling a body out of the rubble all about?
Rob:
Fr. Mychal Judge died in the WTC attack while performing heroic service. That's a picture of his limp body being tended to by NYFD personnel.
let the purge begin
I guess you're right, Feddie. After all, Sullivan has his purposes. No single person is more responsible for moving me from a gay-marriage friendly position to complete opposition to it.
"let the purge begin"
Indeed. And the purge should include all of those who are hostile to any of the Church's core teachings or fundamental beliefs.
Amazing how again and again is he willing to twist Fr. Mychal Judge to his purposes to make him seem like some gay activist when he was still alive - which is not the case at all.
http://www.catholic.org/featured...dline.php?
ID=19
again - if you use birth control, should you be purged?
and isn't the point of religion to be, ahem, anti-purge-ish. in other words, isn't inclusivity the point?
i'll stand by my earlier point too that i think this debate has remarkably little to do with religion per se - when you really boil it down.
Publius,
At some point a tent gets so large, that it falls. If the Church is supposed to "include" those who deny basic teachings, it is less a religious institution than a social club.
I say this as a non-Catholic. I have great respect for the Church but I do not agree with some of what I understand to be its core teachings. I do not join the Church and demand it take my views. Instead, I am a Protestant.
Sullivan and his ilk should have the grace to do the same.
Publius-
If one willfully rejects the Church's teaching on birth control in the same manner as Sullivan and his ilk attack the Church's teaching against homosexuality, then yes, that person should leave the Church. It's one thing for a Catholic to have trouble accepting certain teachings of the Church, but remain open to changing his mind, or express a willingness to study the matter, etc. That's not what Sullivan and his crowd are about, and you know it. It's a nice strawman, Pub., but at the end of the day it just doesn't work.
Here in AZ recently another priest has had charges of sexual misconduct brought against him. I am not Catholic, but I respect any organization that attempts to bring people closer to Christ. All of the people from his congregation quoted in the news defended him to great lengths. This was the same with Bishop O'Brien who covered up sexual abuse and then got involved in a hit and run. Just as I wonder why Muslims don't stand up and speak against terrorism, I wonder why more Catholics don't stand up against sexual abuse. It's one thing to be forgiving, but quite another to condone and the people making excuses for these criminals make me sick. I am starting to believe this is a cultural issue with Catholics. If that happened in my church everyone I know would be outraged and demand change. It is ok to condemn certain acts and disassociate with those who commit them. If the church wishes to forgive them, they can do so without allowing them to remain in the priesthood. The Catholic church says homosexual acts are sin. Why is it so controversial to expect those who represent the church to live and promote its beliefs? Since Catholic doctine is that homosexuality is wrong then the church should not be condemned for requiring those who represent it not to be homosexual. I hope this is taken in the spirit which it is given and the generalities I have noticed are not indicitive of those on this site.
Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Sullivan praises walker for leaving the Church because he cannot agree with its tenets but refuses to take that step himself?
Why the hostility to Mr. Walker? He did what you would want him to do, didn't he?
FWIW, I hope that celibate, gay priests who are grandfathered in pursuant to this policy don't follow suit. The priest shortage is bad enough as it is.
I agree that Fr. Mychal Judge's death should not be exploited for political purposes by Sullivan or anyone. Having said that, based on what I've read, there's some question as to whether Father Judge would be allowed to be a priest if he were a current candidate.
Why the hostility you ask? This quote from Walker speaks for itself:
"It's like a Jew wearing a Nazi uniform," Walker said. "I could no longer stay in that institution with any amount of integrity."
JimBob,
Everything I have read on the proest shortage has indicated that it has been lack of orthodoxy, not an increasing rigor, that has led to shoretages of priests. From what I understand, more orothodox seminaries have not had trouble with candidates.
This seems logical as it mirrors trends in Protestantism, where the watered down mainline barnaches emorrage parishoners while traditional churches have trouble squeezing them in.
Fair enough. It is extremely rare that a Nazi analogy is appropriate and this is not such a case.
He should have simply said, "As a gay man, I could no longer stay in that institution with any amount of integrity, even if I am grandfathered in under the Pope's policy."
Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Sullivan praises walker for leaving the Church because he cannot agree with its tenets but refuses to take that step himself?
He doesn't leave for the same reason that "Sr." Chissiter and Francis Quisling don't leave. If they left, then a lot fewer people would listen to them when they bash the Church. And the media wouldn't give them so much attention.
unhyphenatedconservative,
Perhaps you're right. I base my assertion on what I've read in recent years regarding more priests retiring or dying than are being ordained and my observation that in some areas, priests are increasingly having to serve multiple parishes. I think the numbers are down in the United States.
Also fwiw, it was news when a couple of recent graduates of my old high school were called to the religious life. It would not have been news 40+ years ago.
Y'know, I love food. In fact, I love good food so much, that I tend to overeat. It's just how I am. Man, I love a good Italian meal. Based on what I see, a lot of people are the same way - carrying a few too many, or way too many pounds. A scientist friend of mine who has studied the problem says to some extent, it's how we're wired. It's a real struggle for me to avoid overeating and stay fit.
The church says that gluttony is a sin.
The Church must be wrong, since my basic nature is not accomodated by its rules. Therefore my friends and I should desert the church it to find a place more accomodating of people who overeat.
/s
Sandy Ullivan
"Indeed. And the purge should include all of those who are hostile to any of the Church's core teachings or fundamental beliefs."
So does that include the guy that sullivan put in his pic?
Actus,
Obviously not if you took the time to click on the link provided by Jeff Miller above.
"Obviously not if you took the time to click on the link provided by Jeff Miller above."
Ok. But it would include it if Sullivan's view of the guy was correct?
Jeff--regarding your linked article. Did Fr. Judge have a relationship with Dignity or not?
People why would you bother justifying Church teaching to pub, actus etc… they are playing a game with you, that’s what they do. No, no, no this isn’t discussing it, they want us to justify it to them, sorry boys that’s been done, the Vatican is the place you wanna be, it will have all the reasons you want there. Now whether you accept them is your choice, but really enough with the shenanigans, it’s like your playing gotcha.
Seriously though there is some really great literature out there on Catholic teaching and beliefs, if your sincere go read it, but lets face you aren’t about to read the Bible or Aquinas Summa Theologica, don’t blame you, there tremendously long, and yes I own the six volume set (Summa Theologica hardcover, they look great on the bookshelf) and have only made a medium size dent in them. So come on lets be honest both ways you say we refuse to accept the gay lifestyle, and I say you refuse to accept Church teaching , so tag your it.
On one hand, "let the purge begin" sounds good to me. It really does.
On the other hand the church is a hospital for sinners, not a cluib for saints.
Since the sinner needs the church so much, I am loath to call for a purge. But what about the patient who runs up and down the halls of the hospital screaming at people that they should not take their medicine - (not only do these people run up and down the halls, they hold news conferences out front for the willing and eager press).
I guess I think we are stuck with sinners like the weeds in the wheat. After all, I don't know who to throw out or who to encourage to leave.
To belabor the hospital analogy:
The question isn't whether patients will be allowed in the hospital, but whether the ones who tout their illness as health shall be given positions of authority over the rest of us sick ones.
Granted, whether the "illness" is healthy or not is a point of contention in the wider culture, but not in this particular hospital. There are others.
Quasi,
A quick thought. It's not wrong to expect the shepard to exhibit a higher caliber of moral resourcefulness than the sheep. Or, what good is a hospital w/ no doctors? I think Paul called it being above reproach...
and isn't the point of religion to be, ahem, anti-purge-ish. in other words, isn't inclusivity the point?
Actually, no, religion is not something that can or should be "anti-purge-ish". Religion, properly understood, includes as a part of it s mandate the promulgation of certain absolute and immutable truths. There are those who believe those truths who are "in", and those who do not who are "out".
That does not mean that folks do not fail and fall -- they do. That is part and partial of the broken nature of humanity, and should be responded to with compassion, love, and forgiveness. On the other hand, the open and willful disregard and rejection of those core teachings is an offense which objjectively places the reporbate outside the bounds of the community -- and if they will not move along peaceably, then they need to be forcibly ejected, via excommunication or some similar shunning and rejection by the larger faith community.
Just out of curiosity, "if" the Church ever started listing left, and a new leftist Pope was in charge, would you voice your dissent and anger, or would you simply accept the Pope's word and "be good Catholics."
I mean the question seriously. Not trying to argue.
T-Unit-
Your question is based on a false premise, i.e., that PBXVI is a politically conservative Pope or that the Catholic Church is making political pronouncements as opposed to stating moral truth. One cannot evaluate the Church's teaching through a political lens; but if one does he will soon discover that it is impossible to label the Church as either conservative or liberal. The Church is Catholic, as it should be; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her.
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