After trying to piece together the various timelines of what happened after the shooting I have one question: If "one bullet" Barney..oops.. I mean Cheney was sooo concerned about his dear friend being blasted @ point blank range, why didn't he go to the hospital w/ his buddy?? The excuse of "they didn't need another body" in the ambulance is ridiculous! I believe he could of arranged a ride for himself...AND if he was so troubled about the events of the day how could he go back and have dinner!!! Please don't tell me he actually ate the kill from that day!!
"mmmm this is sum good quail..somebody pass that bottle of chardonnnay over this way.."
Food for thought (pun intended!)
Hey Redd find out what was for dinner that night PLEASEEEE!
drinksforall |
02.16.06 - 1:01 pm | #
Nope Redd, haven't seen the name Michael Andrew "Bo" Hubert before now. Googled it but nothing comes up on the first page that I saw. Who is he FDL'ers?
Shez |
02.16.06 - 1:02 pm | #
The call came in at approximately 5:30 p.m.? But didn't the SS later amend their time of the incident to 5:50 p.m.?
Prolly not all that important, just thought I'd mention it before my senile dementia kicked in again.
al-Scooter |
02.16.06 - 1:02 pm | #
EPUed
anon_1 - Well , I say they are trying to stretch it by some contorted reasoning. Lawyers say no. So far.
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 1:03 pm | #
Hmm.. the name Hubert doesn't sound new to me.
I have a question.
Does the report specify when the other members of the hunting party were interviewed? Was it in Sunday by chance?
marky |
02.16.06 - 1:03 pm | #
Man oh man, some things never change. E.P.U. got epu'd---again! rofl.
Bustednuckles |
02.16.06 - 1:04 pm | #
ReddHedd - This is the story. Hang on like a junkyard dog.
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 1:04 pm | #
Whittington says "nobody drank DURING the hunt."
lin |
02.16.06 - 1:05 pm | #
It seems quite clear that when Cheney was interviewed on Sun a.m. by Chief Deputy Sheriff Gilberto San Miguel Jr., Cheney admitted to the deputy that he pivoted approximately 270 degrees (about 3/4ths of complete circle) before firing off the shot that struck Whittington!
Here's how I figure it happened: Just moments before the shooting occurred, Cheney and Ambassador Willeford were not far from each other, facing towards the south. Willeford was apparently to Cheney's left. (I don't think this is in the police report, but I assume it to be true based on various things I've read.) The sun was setting in the west, which would have been to Cheney's right. Whittington was to Cheney's right (reportedly 90 feet away, but possibly closer), down in a bit of a gully. But of course Cheney didn't realize Whittington was there. A quail then went up and flew BEHIND Cheney. Cheney turned to his LEFT, pivoted COUNTERCLOCKWISE, and spun about 270 degrees, before firing off a very low shot that apparently was barely off the ground, in the general direction of the setting sun.
Cheney's birdshot of course hit Whittington's upper body. Cheney told the deputy that if Whittington had been on level ground, rather than down in a gulley, Cheney's birdshot probably would have struck Whittington's lower body.
I'm neither a hunter nor a hunting-safety expert, but this strikes me as negligent, if not reckless, behavior.
Until I read the police reports, I had been assuming that the quail had gone up in front of Cheney, he had then turned to his right, pivoted clockwise roughly 90 degrees, then squeezed the trigger and shot Whittington. But it seems my assumption was incorrect. I suppose there is some chance that Cheney, when telling the deputy what had happened, meant to say "clockwise," but inadvertently said "counterclockwise." I also suppose it's possible that Cheney said "clockwise," but the deputy then inadvertently dictated or typed "counterclockwise." But you'd think both Cheney and the deputy sheriff, knowing this was a very important matter, would have chosen their words carefully, so I suspect the use of the word "counterclockwise" was not an error.
Moron |
02.16.06 - 1:06 pm | #
The Deputy says he received written affidavits from the women on Wednesday. It doesn't say they were interviewed.
ljt |
02.16.06 - 1:06 pm | #
Marky -- from what I can tell reading the report, the statements were taken the day after the shooting.
ReddHedd |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:06 pm | #
must be referring to Beau Hubert (silent "H" and also "T", as in Colbert Report): dammit, it was the Frenchies all along! freedom fires, not freedom fries.
punaise |
02.16.06 - 1:06 pm | #
All the witnesses lied about alcohol and now have as much credibility as a teenager found to have empties under the seat after swearing up and down there was no drinking.
sonofslothrop |
02.16.06 - 1:07 pm | #
Isn't this obviously, legally, reckelss?:
He said a bird flew behind him, and he followed it in a counterclockwise direction, not realizing Whittington had walked up behind him to rejoin the group. He said Whittington was about 30 yards away, on lower ground, when Cheney fired his shotgun.
''Mr. Cheney told me if Mr. Whittington was on the same ground level, the injuries might have been lower on Mr. Whittington's body,'' the investigator reported.
along |
02.16.06 - 1:08 pm | #
Froomkin's link to the amendment of an executive order signed by Clusterfuck that Cheney was apparently referring to in his interview. I haven't read it- but many have been looking for it- so here it is.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 1:09 pm | #
ljt -- the report indicates that the Deputy briefly spoke with Katherine Armstrong on Sunday after speaking with Cheney (I think on p. 2, about halfway down), along with indicating that he spoke with other witnesses, including Pamela Willeford.
ReddHedd |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:09 pm | #
They sure are trying to shoot the horse we are still kicking.
Bustednuckles |
02.16.06 - 1:10 pm | #
Redd @1:06,
Thanks.
Next question: what is the evidence of a call being made to the police Saturday evening? What paper trail backs up the existence and timing of the call.
marky |
02.16.06 - 1:10 pm | #
Okay, I finally believe this is a credible, newsworthy story because Rita Cosby, the Queen of Missing White Women, apparently breathlessly covered Vice-President-Shot-a-78-Year-Old-Manin-the-Face-
Gate for ten minutes before getting to the REAL news (other missing white women, murdered white women, and murdered/missing white babies).
If Rita's onto Dick, this story is Big Time.
To keep Rita's breathless interest....
***MISSING WHTE WOMAN ALERT***
name: Pamela Willeford
race: white (duh...)
age: 50ish
sex: f (duh...)
occupation: US Ambassadress to Switzerland
last seen: Sat. 2/11/06, on a ranch in Texas, in the company of the V-POTUS
details: Ms. Willeford is missing after an incident involving firearms and alcohol. SHE MAY BE IN GRAVE DANGER. Please report any information immediately to the authorities.
two beers |
02.16.06 - 1:11 pm | #
"Witnesses lied"
Now wait a minute- these guys sometimes flat out lie- more often- they parse the truth..
Ol Harry said that no one drank during the hunt- which opens up the possibility that they got drunk as skunks BEFORE the hunt.
Cheney says that he had one beer with lunch- which doesn't preclude him having had six beers with lunch and/or a fifth of Wild Turkey AFTER lunch but before the hunt. Ya gotta read these things VERY carefully.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 1:11 pm | #
The call came in at approximately 5:30 p.m.? But didn't the SS later amend their time of the incident to 5:50 p.m.?
al-Scooter | 02.16.06 - 1:02 pm |
I think this is just an attempt by the local police to show that they were more efficient than they were initially portrayed. And responding before the event certainly proves that.
I am glad (hic) to learn that no (hic) alcohol was involved (burp).
Hugh |
02.16.06 - 1:13 pm | #
Speaking of Cheney, "Iraq seethes after release of more Abu G torture pictures."
More reminders to all of this VP's legacy -- this is what he fought so hard to continue. And this is what the President reserved the right to do, when he issued the "signing statements" while signing the so-called anti-torture bill.
It will be interesting to see if the US can get rid of Bush/Cheney before Iraq does.
scarecrow |
02.16.06 - 1:13 pm | #
Which of those witnesses are Secret Service?
-
Dan Robinson |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:13 pm | #
al-Scooter @1:02 pm ,
Same thing I've been wondering. TedSanFran mentioned something along that line plus this was posted but EPU'd earlier:
" pardon if this is redundant, haven't read all comments but...
is there a time discrepancy here? i thought the "eyewitness" accounts originally pegged the shot at 5:30pm but then later revised it to 5:50pm.
the sheriff got his call at 5:30pm, twenty minutes before it happened! and where did the sheriff's captain "hear about" a possible hunting accident before it happened?"
lou in lancaster | 02.16.06 - 9:35 am
Shez |
02.16.06 - 1:13 pm | #
1. Who is Oscar Medellin? With that name, I immediately thought of Colombia.
2. Peggy Noonan's hackalicious column in today's WSJ is extremely interseting, less for what it says than for its mere existence. If anyone believes that said column was not in some way sanctioned by GOP powers-that-be, I have some very nice oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.
Constant Reader |
02.16.06 - 1:14 pm | #
The Times' timeline says: The other guests were Ms. Willeford, the ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, and her husband, George, a physician in Austin; Ben Love, a West Texas rancher whom Ms. Armstrong called her "beau"; her sister, Sarita Hixon, a Houston museum chairwoman, and her husband, Bob, an insurance executive; Nancy Negley, an art philanthropist whose family once controlled Brown & Root, now a part of Halliburton; and Mr. Whittington, a 78-year-old Austin lawyer, Republican stalwart and presiding officer of the Texas Funeral Service Commission, and his wife, Mercedes.
Could Bo be Secret Service? They wouldv'e been witnesses you'd think. And the Medellins worked the ranch, right?
Sunset, for the record, was 6:18 that evening.
M |
02.16.06 - 1:15 pm | #
I don't see anything notable in the discrepency between "about 5:30 and 5:50"
The sheriff apparently took little personal interest in all this- he got back to his grilling. He probably only goes to the police officer station for ceremonial duties- like raising the flag on the fourth of July...Clearly he didn't give a shit. He sent his "chief deputy" to do all the work.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 1:15 pm | #
Two EPU's back-to-back. Wow, I am sloooow.
Pachacutec,
This bears repeating. Sorry to hear about your Dad. Thank you for the update. My wife had a stroke in 2002, but the Drs. were able to get the "stroke interceptor" drug TPA into her within the three hour "window." Was that possible with your Dad?
My wife is almost fully recovered, the rehab was slow, but very effective. You and your family are in our thoughts and prayers.
Apple Canyon 2 |
02.16.06 - 1:16 pm | #
rwcole - I'm really not that careless about what I assert. this is via froomkin
David E. Sanger and Anne E. Kornblut write in the New York Times: "Until Mr. Cheney acknowledged having had a beer at lunch, members of the hunting party had been adamant that no alcohol was involved. Katharine Armstrong, whose family owns the ranch, had said in interviews that Dr Pepper was served at lunch and that no one was drinking. In interviews with The Times and other papers, Ms. Armstrong heavily implied that no alcohol was served at all.
" 'No, zero, zippo, and I don't drink at all,' she said in an interview published on Monday in The Corpus Christi Caller-Times, the paper she initially called. 'No one was drinking.' "
There are other comments out there that I really have no interest in running down right now. I do stand behind my statement, but guess based on this piece of data I can only say Armstrong lied.
sonofslothrop |
02.16.06 - 1:16 pm | #
Redd--On page 2 he says that he "was able to locate and get information from Gerardo Medellin...who helped me identify the other people in the hunting party" then he lists their names and drivers license numbers. He then says "I was able to speak briefly with Katharine Armstrong..."
Then on page 3 he says that on Wednesday he "was able to make contact with K. Armstrong, Sarita Armstrong Hixon, Pamela Willeford"
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it sounds to me like he never actually spoke with Willeford in person.
ljt |
02.16.06 - 1:17 pm | #
Cheney didn't say that he had ONLY one beer with lunch- only that he had ONE.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 1:17 pm | #
Maybe Cheney had a bad reaction to the Dr. Pepper. I know I would.
Hugh |
02.16.06 - 1:19 pm | #
sonof- agree- my only point was that there is plenty of wiggle room in Cheney's statement and in Harry's statement to allow plenty of drinking to have gone on.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 1:19 pm | #
Have the docs made any official statements about Whittington's health today?
marky |
02.16.06 - 1:21 pm | #
rwcole,
Oh no doubt. I don't gamble myself but I would feel pretty comfortable placing a reasonably large bet that there was much more drinking going on than acknowledged, were there any way to ascertain that after the fact.
sonofslothrop |
02.16.06 - 1:21 pm | #
Just turned on the tube and Biden talking on CNN about Cheney. Look out. Clearly some Dems feel the need to kick this story up a bit now. I hope they don't bollox the works. Bidens's all over the place...declassification of the NIE, etc. All very valid stuff, but no tight, direct talking point.
of fuck, he just said blitzen was one of the most seasoned reporters in the country. suck up.
sonofslothrop |
02.16.06 - 1:26 pm | #
What many people don't know is that Cheney is a clone. glenda
glenda |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:26 pm | #
marky - Yes, saw them on CNN. Everything is just fine. Why are you all here. We have a great BBQ in south Tx tradition. Why don't you go over there, etc.
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 1:26 pm | #
Bob Barr on CNN's "Live" From"...
OK. So a couple of things to hammer up here, or hammer on. Declassification of documents. From what you've known and know, did you know or do you believe that a vice president has the ability to declassify documents?
BOB BARR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's not quite that simple, but the bottom line, Kyra, is that no, the vice president cannot just wake up one day and say, oh, I'm going to declassify something. It doesn't work that way. It is a specific procedure that the vice president, who does have authority to classify information, which is very different from the authority to unilaterally declassify information -- he has the authority to classify. But if he wants to have something declassified, there is a process through a National Security Council adviser that he has to go through.
PHILLIPS: OK, because he came out in his interview yesterday, and this is what he said when he was asked about this. "I certainly advocated declassification. I have participated in declassification decisions. There's an executive order that specifies who has classification authority, and obviously it focuses first and foremost on the president, but also includes the vice president."
OK. So we went digging a little further here and found executive order 13292, section 1.3. Now I'm getting really technical here.
BARR: I'm impressed. PHILLIPS: Yes, are you impressed? OK, I tell you, this took all morning. Our staff was going crazy. All right, here's what it says. "The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only be the president and in the performance of executive duties, the vice president, agency heads and officials designated by the president." So if you're looking at this executive order, it looks like Dick Cheney is right, he would have the ability to declassify documents.
BARR Now, there's another -- there a number of documents that one would really have to look at here. The vice president clearly has the authority, in his official duties as vice president, to classify information.
But the vice president cannot, under these executive orders -- plus the fact there are federal laws that relate to certain types of information, such as, in the Valerie Plame case, the identity -- releasing the identity of an undercover operative of the CIA, for example. An executive order cannot override those specific statutes. That's sort of a side issue here.
But having the authority to classify information and being able to participate, as the vice president correctly said in his interview just the other day, in declassification procedures and requests, are very different from having the unilateral authority to declassify, which I do not believe from reading these documents the vice president has.
PHILLIPS: So why would the vice president come forward and say this? Because if it's -- if Scooter Libby, indeed, was told by a superior -- you would think that's Dick Cheney, his boss -- that he could release this information about Iraq, talking about the identity of Valerie Plame.
And now you've got the vice president coming forward, saying I can declassify information if I want. If you start putting everything together, it looks like if that indeed, if all those facts -- well, if all that information are, indeed, facts, that they didn't do anything wrong?
BARR: Well, of course, what we're not dealing with here are facts. We're dealing here with interpretations of executive orders, interpretations of perhaps other bureaucratic procedures, interpretations of law.
And the vice president, although I don't think he's said anything technically wrong in his statement to the press the other day, he's being very clever about it. He throws this issue out there, that hey, I really may have authority to declassify something. Then when he's pressed on it, he says, oh, I might be a witness, so I can't say anything about that. What they're doing is very simple. It's an old Latin term called muddying the waters.
PHILLIPS: We know that expression. All right, so let me ask you this. Let me just kind of re-ask it in a different way. Valerie Plame and the fact that she worked for the CIA, her position as an agent with the CIA, can you -- does that make sense? Can somebody -- because that's supposed to be classified information, right?
BARR: Right.
PHILLIPS: If she's working undercover? OK, has an agent, position, a covert position, ever been declassified before? I mean, would that make sense?
BARR: Certainly, it can make sense in certain circumstances, but it's very unusual to do that. Because -- and let's take the case of Valerie Plame. She was in what's called non-official cover, working overseas in a cover capacity that didn't identify her even as a government official.
That's a very sensitive type position. And even though she or a person in a similar situation may later on be employed in a capacity that is overt, you very rarely would want to declassify a person's position that they -- even though they're not in that position -- because that can set in motion a chain of events that our adversaries can uncover that would identify people she dealt with in her prior undercover capacity that could endanger them.
PHILLIPS: Interesting. It just keeps getting more interesting.
BARR: It is.
PHILLIPS: Have you ever been hunting with Dick Cheney, by the way?
BARR: Do I look like I've been hit with pepper spray? The obvious answer is -- or pepper shot. The answer is obviously no.
I would say that Chris Matthews is one of the more seasoned reporters, if pickling counts.
marky |
02.16.06 - 1:27 pm | #
Roberts on announcing that he has spiked the investigation on the NSA program because it would compromiste the effectiveness of the program.
sonofslothrop |
02.16.06 - 1:27 pm | #
I just read through it again, and I think the only witnesses the deputy spoke with on Sunday were Cheney, Medellin and (briefly) Katharine Armstrong. It sounds to me like Medellin's "help" in identifying the other members of the party was to hand the deputy a list of names and drivers license numbers.
ljt |
02.16.06 - 1:27 pm | #
This new vice president would, however, have to be very popular in the party, or the party wouldn't buy it. Replacing Mr. Cheney would be chancy. The new veep would have to get through the Senate, which has at this point at least three likely contenders for the nomination, at least two of whom who would not, presumably, be amused.
LOL! "Three likely contenders"....but there are about 50+ Republican senators who would sell their soul for the job. I'll bet McCain is having a difficult time moving away from the mirror!
Looking at the list it would be much easier to who wouldn't want the job.!
SteveH |
02.16.06 - 1:28 pm | #
What if there was no bird? What if Cheney heard something, spun all the way around, fired carelessly, and then realized it was Whittington and not some pen-raised quail with clipped wings? Just a thought.
Also, if Whittington was able to get that close to the Vice President without the Secret Service agent noticing him, he must have been the one assigned to W on 9/11.
BebopCowboy |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:29 pm | #
Bo Hubert was the hunting guide. Apparently, he is not available until 2/17 to provide an affadavit.
Cozumel - Okay, at least they are talking about eo13292.
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 1:30 pm | #
BebopCowboy - They don't clip the wings as well do they?
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 1:31 pm | #
An investigation into a program whose details Roberts doesn't know will cause it irreparable harm. Yeah right.
marky |
02.16.06 - 1:31 pm | #
I'm not a hunter, but from the comments from hunters that I've read, isn't it much worse that he was not only shooting low enough to hit a fellow hunter, but shooting low enough to hit a fellow hunter who was in a lower area?
Redshift |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:32 pm | #
[copied from the bottom of the last thread...]
Froomkin quotes chief deputy Gilberto San Miguel Jr., who interviewed Cheney at the Armstrong ranch on Sunday morning:
"I could tell he was still upset. He was very, very upset. He came, shook my hand and told me he was willing to cooperate with whatever I needed."
Put this observation together with Katharine Armstrong's remark that Cheney poured himself a stiff one when he got back to the ranch house on Saturday and you have a simpler explanation for why Cheney kept it under wraps until the next day.
He simply was incapable of any rational thought or action, having lost it after seeing Whittington lying on the ground, a bloody mess.
And that's why no one could get to him on Saturday night. Our five-times-deferred chicken hawk in chief was already in meltdown.
milhaud |
02.16.06 - 1:34 pm | #
An analysis by Emptywheel that nicely organizes some of the points already made.
Survey USA is always interesting because they present their data by state.
Here are the results in the six dem target states for senate takeover:
Montana 50% approve
Tenn. 46% approve
Missouri 39% approve
Ohio 37% approve
Pennsylvania 36% approve
Rhode Island 25% approve
The two most interesting are Montana where a dem is tied in a race with a very high Clusterfuck approval rating- and Rhode Island- where Chaffee is tied with a dem in the state that hates Clusterfuck more than any other state!
Both will provide challenges..
In Montana- the dem will have to attack the gooper senator while not attacking Clusterfuck.
In Rhode Island- Chaffee will have to try to save his own ass in a place who would just as soon fry Clusterfuck as salute him.
This is why any "national platform" will always be very vague- candidates need room to move.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 1:36 pm | #
Wow, when the REAL right wingnuts like Bob Barr are out for ya, yer soon ta be wingnut marange! Ol' Mr. Barr don't like these fascist pretenders one bit!!
NorskeFlamethrower |
02.16.06 - 1:38 pm | #
jane hamsher @ 02.16.06 - 1:21 pm -- It's hard to believe that 49% of any group of people [it was 49% when I voted] don't care about this story. I hate questions like this one - to many who answer them, it means "Do you care as much as ", which of course, many people would answer in the negative.
Cujo359 |
02.16.06 - 1:38 pm | #
My question is, WTF was a Border Patrol agent doing there?!
According to p.4 of the police report, it was the border patrol agent who turned Captain Kirk (don't'cha just love saying that?) of the sheriff's department away at the Armstrong Ranch gate on Saturday evening.
The BP agent is never identified by name.
RT |
02.16.06 - 1:38 pm | #
Well of course Bo Hubert isn't available until the 17th. He's on a nice week-long all expenses trip somewhere nice so he can think about what he wants to say to the cops.
And San Miguel? He's a little distracted of late, too, since he just discovered all his kids have gotten a really swank college tuition fund from an anonymous donor. The chance to go to college! Free of charge.
emptywheel |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:41 pm | #
Bo Hubert seems to be the hunting "guide". I guess the 2 Medellins were ranch-hands helping Hubert and the rich white guests.
But there had to be Secret Service Agents "around" ... why weren't they interviewed or asked for affidavits? They were probably the best trained and professional observers on the scene.
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:41 pm | #
Bo Hubert appears to be a 26-year-old from Hempstead Texas; interestingly, Jerry Medellin is a name that appears on the Kenedy County candidate list for Precinct 3Constable, from March 2000:
KENEDY COUNTY
Local contested Democratic primary:
Sheriff - Rafael "Jr." Cuellar (incumbent), Ramiro Medellin Jr.
Tax Assessor-Collector -Cynthia "Cyndi" M. Salinas, Elenteria "Susie" Gonzalez (incumbent)
County Commissioner Precinct 1 - Leonard May (incumbent), Juan M. "Johnny" Cuellar Sr.
Constable Precinct 1 - Amado "Mandy" Castillo (incumbent), Michael Norrell, Richard Garza
Constable Precinct 2 - Melinda Vela, Joe Salazar (incumbent)
Constable Precinct 3 - Lazaro "Larry" Vaiz, Gerardo "Jerry" Medellin
Constable Precinct 4 - Juan Collazo, Maria "Janie" S. Lerma (incumbent)
Uncontested local Democratic primary races:
State Rep. District 35 - Irma Rangel (incumbent)
105th District Attorney - Carlos Valdez (incumbent)
County Attorney - Roy Turcotte (incumbent)
No contested local Republican primary races
Uncontested local Republican primary races:
County Attorney - Jaime E. Tijerina
County Commissioner Precinct 3 - Tobin Armstrong (incumbent)
Honest Response |
02.16.06 - 1:41 pm | #
I accidentally posted this on the end of the last thread, not realizing there was a new one:
The PFAW has a website where you can generate a letter to your congresscritters & the AG demanding a special prosecutor:
Cheney suggests in the Fox interview and the Wall Street Journal clearly says that Cheney turned to the right, but police report says he turned counter clockwise, which would be to his left, correct?
Lee |
02.16.06 - 1:43 pm | #
Redshift,
Shooting that low you could easily shoot the hunting dogs, who don't announce themselves by the way. That's a real no no. My uncles kept hunting dogs and thought as highly of them as they did the people they hunted with.
sonofslothrop |
02.16.06 - 1:44 pm | #
Lee- It isn't clear whether Cheney was facing north or south before the shot- if he turned counter clockwise- he had been facing north and then turned to the west- into the setting sun. I can't see how the difference could be very important though- it's clear that one way or the other he shot the fucker.
In my experience- these types of details almost NEVER agree- a surprising number of people can't immediately tell you which is their right or left- and certainly can't point out north..
The issue is almost certainly about drinking- not direction.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 1:48 pm | #
Peggy Noonan makes essentially the point I've been making for a couple of days: naming a Cheney successor when there are so many presidential aspirants is just begging for some serious internal bloodletting for the GOP.
Throwing Cheney under the bus is a lot tougher than many people here have been hypothesizing.
They've done a modified limited hangout with the "one beer" concession, bought time and testimoy for the record, and are hoping, as EW points out, that they can circle the wagons and hold firm, as ever.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 1:49 pm | #
Just on CNN and Wolfe - Thug says there is nothing in the Constitution that says we are entitled to information regarding darth's hunting "accident". Who new?
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 1:50 pm | #
It isn't clear whether Cheney was facing north or south before the shot
Dick lost his moral compass
punaise |
02.16.06 - 1:51 pm | #
In one part, the story relates that Tobin Armstrong, still alive in 1999, "At age 12, Armstrong shot a buck from a custom-made hunting car with his uncle, Tom Armstrong, and the King Ranch's Bob Kleberg Jr.
"Both men looked at each other and said 'Nice shot, Bob. Nice shot, Tom.' Then they realized I had shot it,'' Tobin Armstrong recalled.
Toasting Tobin with liquor that they kept in the back of the hunting car, Tom Armstrong suggested they give Tobin a new rifle as a reward for his good shooting. Kleberg said that a rifle wasn't good enough. He suggested Tom Armstrong's own customized hunting car. Tom Armstrong agreed, and the young Tobin drove the car from the King Ranch to the Armstrong Ranch. He used it for hunting for the next 10 years. "
Mike at 1:47 -- Ooops. Thanks! It's fixed -- what a typo!
ReddHedd |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 1:51 pm | #
Emptywheel,
Don't forget to include the hospital. With all the doublespeak coming about the ICU, Mr. Whittington speaking, etc.
There should be a nice check coming in the mail real soon. From an anonymous donor of course.
Apple Canyon 2 |
02.16.06 - 1:51 pm | #
Pachacutec
I agree (of course) with your analysis of Cheney's talk as buying time.
Atrios says it would be better to have a damaged Cheney for the next few years,
I thought that was a Clarence Thomas homage.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 1:52 pm | #
*waves* @ punaise
california_reality_check,
ohhhhhh so NOW they are suddenly caring about that goddamn piece of the paper a.k.a. the Constitution? WTF does a reckless shooting have to do with that eh? They can go tell that and apologise to Monica's blue dress then. LOL
Shez |
02.16.06 - 1:57 pm | #
Homage?
Let's not forget the frommage---swiss fondue style, dipped into while riding shotgun on the hunting truck.
marky |
02.16.06 - 1:57 pm | #
You guys talk like this investigation should have been rigorous and thorough. You obviously have never been in South Texas. Corruption in law enforcement is rampant, usually from drug money, but smuggling oil and fuels is also a BIG source.
Kenedy County is the middle of God-forsaken nowhere. There are no jobs. Aside from ranching, there are few businesses.
If you are wealthy, Armstrong Ranch is a perfect place to avoid public scrutiny. You can fly in, and land on the 4000 ft private runway, and escape just as quickly.
King Perfect |
02.16.06 - 1:58 pm | #
california_reality_check,
Isn't it interesting that they can shred the Constitution for their benefit, but when it comes to our Constitutional rights, we have none and the "news media" reaffirms their position.
Apple Canyon 2 |
02.16.06 - 1:58 pm | #
from Andrew Sullivan's blog:
King George Watch
16 Feb 2006 04:47 pm
A reader notices something interesting:
"The Executive Order allowing Cheney to declassify classified information is Executive Order 13292. Bryon York at the National Review actually has a good article on it this morning. I found the date of the Exeutive Order, March 23, 2003, to be the most astounding part. According to Wikipedia, the time line of the Plame Affair goes like this. On March 3, 2003 Joseph Wilson writes an article in the Nation in which he claims that "America has entered one of it [sic] periods of historical madness." The Executive Order 13292, giving the Vice-President explicit authority to declassify information, is issued on March 23, 2003. On July 6, 2003, Joseph Wilson writes his article in the New York Times disputing the intelligence that Saddam Hussein attempted to acquire nuclear materials in Africa, which is followed by Robert Novak's article ousting Valerie Plame on July 14, 2003."
The York article is indeed very helpful. York will no doubt soon be called a liberal. More to the point: the circumstantial evidence seems pretty clear to me that the president gave the vice-president constitutional authority to smear Joseph Wilson. It also seems to me that this is a big deal.
coloradoview |
02.16.06 - 1:59 pm | #
immanentize:
I saw Duncan post that. I found it interesting, but I can't say I'm either 1) persuaded or 2) firm in my opinion.
The prevailing belief in the lefty blogosphere has been that dumping Cheney gives them a clear path. But it fails to account for the internal dynamics of the Republicans, to which Noonan is far mre attuned.
Naming a new veep makes many enemies, whose career aspirations will require them to undermine the administration.
Plus as I keep pointing out, dumping Cheney adds a big bloody scalp to the water, and they know that dumping Agnew was the beginning of the end for Nixon.
Just as we Dems overlearn our historical lessons and stove burns (how long have we run from McGovern?), so too does the other side. The ruling GOP class thinks Nixon punked out and should have held firm.
Don't underestimate the power of that narrative to motivate actions against objective interest, just the way the Dem establishment has become allergic to the projection of passion, rectitude or principle.
Politically, I think the GOP faces a Hobson's choice, just as they do in Iraq. Keep Cheney, and his cancer spreads. Dump him and the water churns with blood and a GOP civil war unfolds. Either way, it's too late to cover themselves from Fitzgerald and anoy other legal problems, like Abramoff.
They face no good choices. What's better for Dems, politically? To me, doesn't matter. As long as we use events to
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:02 pm | #
rwcole,
Thanks. It still doesn't make sense to me though. If start out in a line with people on your side, any turn at or beyond 90 degrees is going to put your gun through the path of one of the other hunters. I don't know anything about hunting, but it sure seems like any turn beyond 90 degrees would be extremely dangerous.
Lee |
02.16.06 - 2:03 pm | #
Much as we'd like to think that Cheney would be weak and damaged if he remains, the fact is that simply remaining gives him strength. Rove has not been diminished by any scandal, but Libby has since he is out of a job.
Cheney in office is strong; Cheney out of office is weak---moreover, Cheney out of office makes the dam more likely to break on the Plame case.
marky |
02.16.06 - 2:06 pm | #
oops - cut off before. . .
They face no good choices. What's better for Dems, politically? To me, doesn't matter. As long as we use events to discredit the entire Republican Party and 30 conservative movement.
Of course, the weak link in all this are the DC Dems. Maybe the "Fighting Dems" class of '06 will do well and bring with them a new party image that will be contagious.
Apple Canyon 2, Shez - They clearly are reaching on this one. I've noticed that the big guns don't want to come out front lately. Bring em down. Hang on like a junkyard dog and BRING EM DOWN.
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 2:09 pm | #
"Don't forget to include the hospital."
Apple Canyon 2; I heartily second that suggestion; Mr. Banko and Dr. Blanchard sounded very scripted. And I still think it is strange that instead of having a top notch cardiologist or an intensivist do the talking, they trotted out an ER doc with a less than spotless record. Not SOP for most hospital pressers that I've seen. Then again, I have a toothache today, must be the fillings working OT!
Dru |
02.16.06 - 2:11 pm | #
pacha--Hard to say for sure- it seems that goopers would be stronger without Cheney and with an electable candidate in the VP office. It would cause some problems also- the guy would be running for pres- and be totally unaccountable to clusterfuck- so there is the possibility of some loose cannoning- still I suspect that if they could push a button and make it happen overnight- they would.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 2:11 pm | #
googling "bo hubert" shows there was a Bo Hubert working as an intern in Fall of '03 for the Agriculture Sesrvices and Development dep't. at Tarleton State in central TX
it doesn't state his area of study (and unllike most of the others, no resume or contact info.)
Cheney out of power makes it more likely Libby will flip.
The missing part of your analysis positing a Cheney rebound in strength is the continuing threat of other scandals that hit him directly or indirectly.
If hanging on would get him out of all trouble and out of the woods, I would agree with your analysis.
He still faces Plamegate exposure. And even if Karl goes down, or Abramoff stuff hits congress harder, he takes collateral damage, since he IS the GOP establishment.
Warrantless wiretapping can still hurt him, and he is more damaged by shooting a 78 year old man in the face even if he does hang on.
Parts of you analysis seem right to me, but purley playing for time does not do anything other than forestall immediate implosion of his position. It does not, in my estimation, fundamentally strengthen him or alter the dynamic against him, given everything else still in play.
That's just my take.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:12 pm | #
rwcole: I have been arguing this week that if Rove/Bush thought they could dump Cheney without taking serious collateral damage and a weakning of their own position, they would.
They just can't see a clear path to safety that allows them to do that, however. That's my take.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:14 pm | #
"Bo Hubert was the hunting guide. Apparently, he is not available until 2/17 to provide an affadavit."
"Amy had John Perkins on Democracy Now today. He specifically mentioned "Senators dying in plane crashes" as one of the 'methods of persuasion' used."
So stay off of small planes, Bo.
JT |
02.16.06 - 2:14 pm | #
Pacha,
I'll take a bird in the hand (cheney out) than one in the Bush---or in the ICU. Without either Republican revolt or a decisive turn against Bush by the corporate press, Bush will retain power, possibly winning seats this fall.
marky |
02.16.06 - 2:15 pm | #
I'm not a hunter, but from the comments from hunters that I've read, isn't it much worse that he was not only shooting low enough to hit a fellow hunter, but shooting low enough to hit a fellow hunter who was in a lower area?
Sometimes the quail don't "flush," that is, rise up as one and fly. Occasionally they just run along the ground for a while and then take off. Shooting them on the ground is called "skillet shooting" and is considered very bad form, and might even be illegal. Of course, if it was considered something that a real hunter wouldn't do it stands to reason that Cheney would do it.
And rwcole is right, drinking and hunting go hand in hand. I watched a hilarious clip on C & L yesterday in which Fuc..I mean Tucker Carlson said he'd been on dozens of hunts and had never seen anyone drinking while hunting. Those must have been dainty affairs. The other two guys Scarborough and O'Donnell just laughed out loud. No one needs to remind me what a bad idea combining guns & alcohol is, I'm just saying it's extremely common. I'm sure I'm not the most experienced hunter on here, but I've hunted quail in Missouri and deer and dove in Texas and, well, let's just say .......an extremely large time was usually had by all.
the cyber ruffian |
02.16.06 - 2:16 pm | #
Pachacutec -
They ALL have too much dirt on each other. An immunizing gridlock of criminality and sleaze.
.
BobbyG |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 2:16 pm | #
lou in lancaster | 02.16.06 - 9:35 am
Shez | 02.16.06 - 1:13 pm | #
Yup, my bad. Thanks for highlighting!
The time discrepancy seems to fall neatly in line with the drinking/no-drinking contradiction and the "eyewitness" testimony that wasn't.
It just gets better and better.
al-Scooter |
02.16.06 - 2:17 pm | #
So there are 3 Medellins? 2 were shooting witnesses and one is the former sherriff who said "it's just an accident" and thus delayed the investigation?
Do I have that right?
el cabra guapo |
02.16.06 - 2:19 pm | #
like I said a couple posts ago, there wasn't a bird, Cheney heard a noise in the brush and turned and shot at it, down the hill, as Harvey was climbing up. If there had been a bird to follow from front to back it would have gained altitude relative to the ground which was fallong off to cheney's back. Cheney would have shot too high to hit someone in the chest coming up from lower ground.
The bird is a metaphore for "Honest ossifer, I swerved to miss a dog when I hit the tree"
tominwv |
02.16.06 - 2:19 pm | #
c_r_c,
everyone is cracking me up as usual (tried to eat... oops, and the bath I ran over an hour ago is cold) but what you put up was a sure jaw dropper. They're spinning like a lathe.
Shez |
02.16.06 - 2:20 pm | #
the Dos Medellines were on the hunting party. The ex-Sheriff merely works on the ranch. According to one account, the ex-Sheriff now on the ranch is the boyfriend of the daughter of the current Sheriff. How do you say "congerie" in Spanish ?
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 2:21 pm | #
marky: Can't say I'm as pessimistic about '06 as you are.
In spite of the traditional media, the majority believe Iraq was a mistake. That's amazing. There are a number of ways public opinion does not reflect the authoraized media narrative, as Glenn Greenwald points out all week this week.
Tim Kaine, whatever you think of him, did win Virginia. Dems are exceeding expectations and Republicans can't recruit candidates.
Even the establishment watchers like Stu Rothernberg and others are predicting Dem gains in both houses, barring events that change the dynamics in play. The only question to them is whether those gains will be enough to retake either or both houses (the tidal wave phenomenon, which does happen).
Chris Bowers has been crunching the numbers and reviewing history, and there are forces at play that certainly create a lot of tailwind for Dems this year. We'll see.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:21 pm | #
In th ewhole replace Cheney world, I have been pondering one dynamic -- the Cheney/Bush relationship. If all the news is to be believed, the love that dared not speak its name is slipping 'twixt the two.
AND if you add the assumption that Cheney has at least as much power internally and independently as Bush (Cheney has Addington and Hadley, Bush has Rove and Gonzalez). And consider how petulant and spoiled Bush is --
I am expecting that Cheney will have to be pushed very very hard before leaving and that such an effort would only weaken Bush further. In the meantime, Bush is weakened by Cheney remaining.... In large part becaause Cheney is no longer the Capital Hill threat he used to be.
To choose a Cheny replacement (unless it was some doddering old one) would basically be crowning that person as money frontrunner iin 2008. That would upset a lot of people who probably are arguing they deserve their own shot....
I think this will come down to Bush power and petulance vs Cheney power and arrogance....
Texas Death Match -- Loser Leaves Town!
immanentize |
02.16.06 - 2:21 pm | #
I was struck by the deputy saying he interviewed Whittington in his room at 10 am on Monday morn. He had just had a minor heart attack and that procedure and yet he was sitting up in a chair at 10 am? I smell something fishy! Also, Oscar Medellin wasn't questioned. Was the Constable another Medellin other than Oscar and Geraldo (Jerry)?
bellesouth |
02.16.06 - 2:22 pm | #
if Harry was coming dirctly back to the hunting party from the car....wtf was Cheney doing shooting low and in that direction? There were still people sitting in it, or so it seems.
Jules |
02.16.06 - 2:23 pm | #
Seems ta me that "Dicky and the Clusterfuck" are washed up- they haven't had a hit single for years- and no one's standin in a line askin for an autograph.
Sure we're gonna go over and kick their corpses from time ta time just ta make sure that there are no miracle recoveries- but you can kinda chalk em up- they're toast- like Dinah Shore an Dean Martin.
Next step is to figure out how ta get out of the slime pool they created.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 2:23 pm | #
Homage?
Let's not forget the frommage---swiss fondue style, dipped into while riding shotgun on the hunting truck.
marky | 02.16.06 - 1:57 pm | #
heh. I read it as hornage; draw your own conclusions...
punaise |
02.16.06 - 2:24 pm | #
Ed Lavanderas of CNN is down in South Texas. It sure sounds like the Sheriff of Kenedy County is being quite uncommunicative and ducking the media. Yup, he knows he's got a hot one and is having to cover up for La Dama Rica at the Ranch...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 2:24 pm | #
Bobby G:
That's a factor I have not considered much: the gangster mentality of all hanging on so we all don't fuck each other over.
Fitzy is constructing his assualt to maximize pressure to crack the network, of course, and he's a master of that game.
I guess your point is, Cheney is potentially more dangerous to Bush/Rove on the outside, if he feels betrayed and has to save his own fat pasty varicose veiny ass. And I think that's a good point.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:24 pm | #
Pacha,
I don't see a Democratic party prepared to fight a repeat of the 2002 elections. For all we know, the attack on Iran will already have taken place by election season, generating serious consequences. In the middle of a real war, the public does not like to change leadership; furthermore, tarring opponents as unpatriotic is still effective.
I trust that the volume of the fascist bullhorn will go up many notches from 2002.
Are the Democrats ready?
Honestly, I think the answer is a definite no.
marky |
02.16.06 - 2:24 pm | #
pach - ........he is more damaged by shooting a 78 year old man in the face even if he does hang on.
are you talking about cheney hanging on or the 78 year old man with the face that was shot up by cheney and his expensive european shotgun? i can never remember if that gun is french or italian.
p.s. - glad you pop is doing better.
rusty |
02.16.06 - 2:25 pm | #
Amazing that when the police interviewed Whittingon in the hospital on Monday, he "explained foremost that there was no alcohol during the hunt." The man is shot full of pellets, has a minor heart attack, but he is at pains to explain "foremost" that no one had been drinking during the hunt.
Doesn't look like he was asked about the drinking before the hunt.
blythetdm |
02.16.06 - 2:25 pm | #
Simpson says that Cheney is a "crack shot" wish someone had asked him whether we can conclude that he only hits what he aims at!
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 2:26 pm | #
Whittington is keeping his options open- if he wants a billion dollars worth of Halliburton stock- he knows where there IS some.
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 2:27 pm | #
Coldish and very windy !!
Harry |
02.16.06 - 2:28 pm | #
The wild card in the dump Cheney possibilities would be to pick someone with no presidential aspirations. Someone in the moldy mold of a retired Senator, like Alan Simpson or Bob Dole. You know, a company man.
That could keep the warring internal GOP factions at bay for a while, at least, until the '08 posturing heats up for real, but I don't see how it solves the problems of blood in the water, and the danger of Dick on the outside of the tent pissing in, (rather than inside the tent pissing out).
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:28 pm | #
Pach,
Let's not forget Lieberman.
He is a VERY effective stoolie.
He will be trotted out on a near daily basis to denounce other Democrats as unpatriotic for not supporting Bush, letting Wurlitzer run with the theme that only the fringe element hates Bush.
marky |
02.16.06 - 2:28 pm | #
rusty - Italian Prada, I think.
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 2:29 pm | #
According to one account, the ex-Sheriff now on the ranch is the boyfriend of the daughter of the current Sheriff.
'No, really, we're all just friends; there's no other connection.'
I have a bridge in Palo Duro Canyon for you....
This whole thing sounds like SOP procedure for this administration:
1) make error in judgement
2) lie in effort to hide error
3) blame victim or media for coverage of error
4) lie some more to make the coverage go away
5) pretend it's really supposed to be done that way, and everyone else is wrong
You would think by now the corp-rat media would have this figured out and be waiting to report the lies.
P J Evans |
02.16.06 - 2:29 pm | #
not a Prada but a Peruzzi
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 2:31 pm | #
if clusterfuck really wants to get rid of cheney he could always use whittington against him. easy move. does karl hunt with whittington?
rusty |
02.16.06 - 2:31 pm | #
I'm hoping Whittington really is doing legal work---preparing to clusterfuck Cheney and Armstrong.. Big Time!
marky |
02.16.06 - 2:32 pm | #
Marky: Actually, I don't think there's much stomach for Iraq, the rerun, even at the Pentagon. I could be wrong about the later, but of the electorate, I feel more confident.
A few bombing runs, maybe, but we just don't have an army to send. I don't think the electorate has any stomach for a new pointless war.
Rusty: I was talking about Cheney hanging on to his job. The gun was Italian. Thanks for the kind words about my famously crotchety yet oddly magnetic dad.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:33 pm | #
Wilson46201 Perrazi, Peruzzi it's all the same to me.
california_reality_check |
02.16.06 - 2:33 pm | #
$100K sounds a tad rich for a shotgun ... I've seen $5K & $20K posted in here which seems a lot more reasonable ...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 2:33 pm | #
Marky-- more likely- Ol Harry's lookin for a "settlement" ta keep his mouth shut oughta be worth 100 million or so?
rwcole |
02.16.06 - 2:33 pm | #
The business about the sheriff interviewing Whittington at the hospital on Monday and offering to record his comments and Whittington declining to be recorded because his voice was "raspy" sounds awfully fishy to me. I no longer trust any of the allegations about what he has supposedly said since the accident. At this point, I'll be surprised if he makes it out of the hospital alive ever to be seen or heard from again. Do we know what friends or family have visited him since the accident?
florentine |
02.16.06 - 2:35 pm | #
While FDL and many other blogs focus on Shooter Dick's drunken hunt, the Patriot Act get's the A-OK and the NSA spying on American's is on its way to get another A-OK with Sen. Roberts saying he will "fix" the FISA law.
Did anyone say America is beacon for freedom and liberty where the Constitution was sacred???
Max |
02.16.06 - 2:36 pm | #
Pacha,
All I'm saying is that the Democrats need to be Boy Scouts...be prepared.
If they are counting on Bush not attacking Iran, they are idiots.
And if he doesn't attack Iran, he could play the same song and dance of resolutions and threats on Iran, combined with threats on Democrats at home.
I don't see the Democrats prepared for these strategies?
Do you? Which Democratic strategist has explained how to avoid a repeat of 2002? If they are relying on polls which say the public doesn't support Bush---we are fucked.
marky |
02.16.06 - 2:37 pm | #
marky, re: Lieberman
That is, I think, more of a Dem fear than a realistic GOP possibility.
I can envision the GOP mollified by an old man establishment pick, like Dole. But not a Dem. Remember, they have no respect for Lieberman. He's scum to them. They just use him.
If you're George Allen, you can swallow hard and live with Dole. But not Lieberman. You will resent the fuck out of some undeserving Dem, who has not been part of the club, getting that cherry post. Same for a plethora of other GOP sneators. McCain alone would go ballistic, and he knows how to draw blood.
Others have posited Rice. But I don;t see it. She has never held office and then she gets a leg up if she wants to run for office?! A university hack like her? Think how this would sit with George Allen and the other aspiring fuhrers. They won't like seeing her jump to the head of the class, and will act accordingly to undermine her and the administration. They will have to.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:38 pm | #
Pachacutec -
Think about it. Mutually incriminating dirt. They're in gridlock.
Probably also explains shit like Tenet getting his "Attaboy" heckofajob award, after being tarred as the Bad Iraq Intel Perp. He probably has a lot of dirt as well. No one with the dirt can be shit-canned.
And, I would say, Cheney has MAJOR dirt the Vacationer-in-Chief.
.
BobbyG |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 2:39 pm | #
Sorry, Pach---misunderstanding. I"m not suggesting Lieb. for VP.
I'm just saying that he will be used extensively in the fall to attack Democrats.
marky |
02.16.06 - 2:39 pm | #
yeah, that story about a 78 year old experienced lawyer being concerned that his voice would be too "raspy" sounded most peculiar. He definitely understands better than some small-town Sheriff the utility of good backup documentation such as a tape...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 2:39 pm | #
rwcole, LOL yea a 100 mil at least, maybe 200, a million bucks for every piece of fucking birdshot in him. Better yet maybe a good chunk of the 8.6 BILLION in cash that disappeared in Iraq perhaps?
Shez |
02.16.06 - 2:41 pm | #
Pach,
I'm a strategic board game player, big time---both chess and go. In those games you learn never to plan without taking into account what your opponent might play. The further ahead you can see, especially strategically, the better off you are.
My problem with the Dems is that I don't see ANY thinking about what political tactics the GOP will use---none.
marky |
02.16.06 - 2:41 pm | #
Let's cast this in religious tones shall we ?
In Dec. Cheney was on the Hill lobbying for Torture, Sat. he shot his friend, It's simple, God hates Dick Cheney !
Gyro Gear Loose |
02.16.06 - 2:43 pm | #
marky | 02.16.06 - 2:37 pm | #
Nolo contendere.
I think it should be expected that there will be bombings, but there's a strong possibility there will be more sb=aber rattling than action, because the military can't sustain it and the public has no stomach for it.
But I can say I have any confidence that the DC dems have any clue how to engage on national security issues.
BobbyG | Homepage | 02.16.06 - 2:39 pm |
Agreed. Powerful dynamic.
marky | 02.16.06 - 2:39 pm | #
That part is up in the air. He faces a primary challenge, so if he clear that, and then thinks he is free to act effectiely as a Republican, it's possible. But he could also be forced by his primary to hew left, and that might constrain him a bit in the Fall. Too early to tell.
Let's hope Ned Lamont beats him and makes him run as a Republican if he wants back in the Senate.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:43 pm | #
Indiana has a "Sore Loser" law which prevents a loser in a primary from running in the fall as an independent or finagling the appointment as the candidate of another party. I hope Connecticut has one for Lieberman ...
Wilson46201 |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 2:47 pm | #
The Keyboard Kommandos explain what really happened down in Texas.
JWR |
02.16.06 - 2:48 pm | #
marky | 02.16.06 - 2:41 pm | #
I generally agree, though my appraoch comes more from negotation experience and theory. I'll be teaching it an Ivy League business school MBA program this Fall.
I also play some chess, but not online stuff. I tend to make careful calibrations of the leverage environment, and of the personality/human factors (psychologist and all).
But I totally agree with the point about preparation and anticipation. And I agree the DC Dems are not doing it well. I'm all for sending them "tough love."
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:48 pm | #
Wilson: As I understand it, Lieberman would be free to switch and could get GOP blessing for it. He has been the beneficiary of GOP fundraising.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:49 pm | #
Go catch the new thread before it comes up missing too ;)
Shez |
02.16.06 - 2:51 pm | #
What do you mean Cheney not a threat on Capital Hill anymore?
This guy came back from the ranch and in 3 days (while having the birdshot scandal all over the news) still managed to get the House judiciary Committee to drop it's domestic spying inquiry and there is a big possibility that the Senate will as well.
Oh, and they are going to muzzle Comey and Ashcroft when they testify.
Misdirection folks. While the press was busy salivating over birdshot, beers and babes--Darth Cheney was doing his specail magic on those few republicans in Congress who foolishly thought they might get away with actually doing their jobs for 5 or 10 minutes.
If they are still afraid of him, we should be too.
Noonan may well be stirring the pot a) for amusement--it is entertaining to think about, b) for more misdirection.
Gotta go back to giving whistleblowers cover and trying to push back on our Congresspeople and Senators to actually do the checks and balances thing.
2 things motivate our beloved Congressional leaders: money and fear.
If they see donations flowing in a given direction--toward or away from a particular cause-- they follow the money. Fear of anything that will cost them votes. They need to get reelected after all.
The only way we can counter the fear they have of being swift boated or outspent in a targeted race if they annoy BushCo is to make them MORE AFRAID of the wrath of their constituents than they are of the Administration.
The more the work of the blogesphere moves the MSM and drives the story, the more it organizes blocks of people to unified action (like the many calls to write your Congressperson-- or MOVE ON want s to have vigils), the more it raises money for candidates who demonstrate allegiance to the rule of law; the more responsive Congress will be to the needs of the people. We, the people have to be aggressive consumers of the work of our elected officials and make sure they know that we do care and are paying attention.
Once again, apologies for lousy typing skills
looseheadprop |
02.16.06 - 2:53 pm | #
I regret that "Ivy League" reference. I don't want to name the school, and I was trying to be generic, but it retrospect it just sounds snooty.
But that does not necessarily indicate strength. The nature of a crime organization like this is, once the first real crack occurs, the whole structure collapses. Fear and desperation can create the appearance of last minute unity, but it's not necessarily well grounded byt a reliable foundation.
But it's a very fair point.
Pachacutec |
02.16.06 - 2:57 pm | #
Sez Pachacutec, The wild card in the dump Cheney possibilities would be to pick someone with no presidential aspirations. Someone in the moldy mold of a retired Senator, like Alan Simpson or Bob Dole. You know, a company man.
How about Harry Whittington for VP? (Assuming he lives.)
uncle toby |
02.16.06 - 3:02 pm | #
"Bo" had to be the dog handler. He doesn't show up in the FEC campaign contribution database.
Ralph |
02.16.06 - 3:12 pm | #
Quick, if slightly stale, observation about Armstrong's alleged eyewitness account.
Cheney told Hume that after he shot Whittington in the face, "they were able to get the ambulance there, and within about 30 minutes we had him on his way to the hospital."
I can think of two ways that this "were able to" construction makes sense:
(1) Cheney's ambulance was not part of the hunting entourage and they "were able to" summon it from elsewhere on the ranch;
(2) Cheney's ambulance was part of the entourage and they "were able to" drive it through the brush up to the wounded man.
My money is on (2). And if it is (2), then we have a tiny bit of further evidence that Armstrong wasn't close enough to see anything. Cheney wouldn't have said "were able to" if the ambulance had been right there, within "eyewitness" range of the shooting.
&y |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 3:13 pm | #
Some Information:
The Sheriff's report identifies the GPS coordinates of the "incident" as N 26 degrees 56.352, W 97 50.420. A US Geological Suvey Map can be located at terraserver.microsoft.com. http://terraserver.microsoft.com...072&Y=14848&
W=1
I used Long -97.84757 and Lat 26.84512 - hope I did this correctly.
While you are there, visit the coordinates of the Armstrong Airport runway which is at Latitude: 26.9339
Longitude: -97.7514. You may need to zoom out - the runway appears to run from NW to SE!
zortster |
02.16.06 - 3:20 pm | #
The Armstrong Ranch House appears go be at:
Long -97.76607
Lat 26.93651
The airport runway seems to come right up to the ranchhouse complex.
zortster |
02.16.06 - 3:30 pm | #
If you've noticed that the cons really dont get all that upset anymore its because they (we) have won.
They (we)used to whine about bias and average American would say "right"
But all it takes is a good- faith look into the "new media" and the conclusion is.....
SKMaids |
02.16.06 - 3:37 pm | #
zortster | 02.16.06 - 3:20 pm - If this thread's still active, I will post my comments here. I have more information I obtained with some topographic map software I have. First, let's convert some coordinates: N 26 degrees 56.352, W 97 50.420 = N 26.9392 degrees, W 97.8403 degrees. That, as you mentioned, is where the accident occurred. According to my software, the elevation at that location is 33 feet above sea level. The terrain within 100 feet of that point is practically flat. Yes, there's a possibility of a ditch in that area that doesn't show up on the map when I zoomed in on those coordinates.
I have some other software I can use later on. There's also Google Earth. Let me see what I can find out from the maps provided by the other programs I have available.
Stephen Parrish, CPA |
02.16.06 - 4:12 pm | #
" All in all, sketchy, but it looks like everyone's story was consistent-ish with everyone else's. At least, according to the police report, as far as we can tell without seeing the actual statements and affadavits for ourselves. Lots of questions, still getting sketchy answers -- I think that's the bottom line. " posted by ReddHedd @ 12:45 PM
After 20 or so entries, are you happy with this? can we get back to stories FDL was covering so well before this shooting thing ? I undertstand the ´blue dress´potential here, but In the meantime, The White House, via `Cheney´s intervention´, has aso pushed to sink the chances of a decent Commitee review of the FSIA violations. This stuff matters (Constitution?) big time and I wonder if FDL is comfortable with with the energy you have spent on this shooting story. I know it is a good story and all, but is it good enough at the expense of the better stories being hammered by you only a week ago. I think it this is a drag and a big diversion from what was going on prior. Just my small opinion.
jh |
02.16.06 - 4:18 pm | #
That does not look like an ambassadress. That's an ambassadyke in drag. Ewe. What's the opposite of an Oedipal complex, where you've got the hots for your daughter? ... Although Lynne is kinda dykish herself. What's up with that?
anon |
02.16.06 - 4:44 pm | #
while i'm able to post i would like to comment that i normally cannot open comments, although they sometimes (rarely) open when i click on a link. do you know what causes that? can someone at FDL please put a permanent post up on how to fix this, if it is my computer causing it? i recall a mention months ago about google toolbar causing problems. when i followed the recommended fix, it did nothing. i do not have this problem with other sites that use haloscan.
anon |
02.16.06 - 4:48 pm | #
re Sheriff Ramon Salinas III's report (p.4)
Who, and with which organisation (or enterprise?), is Captain Charles Kirk?
Is a Border Patrol Agent stationed at the Armstrong gate? On whose payroll?
It was reported in the press that a Sheriff's deputy was turned away from the Armstrong gate. Why no mention of that occurrence in the Sherrif's Report?
AlanDownunder |
02.16.06 - 4:49 pm | #
The entire police report is suspect. The parties involved have all had time to get their "story" straight, by the time the police showed up the next day. The fact that their "stories" "match up" proves only that they were all involved...
ceabaird |
02.16.06 - 5:11 pm | #
It's "affidavit," not "affadavit." FYI. Otherwise, no complaints - keep up the great work!
Nitpicker |
02.16.06 - 5:54 pm | #
Off-topic
Re: TerraServer and Google Earth
You people who are looking at the aerial and satellite imagery of the ranch and site... if you've not tried it out, I highly highly recommend the World Wind program from NASA. It is free (unless you count the taxes you paid to develop it), open-source, and awesome.
&y |
Homepage |
02.16.06 - 5:56 pm | #
The border patrol is there because the Ranch is not that far norht of the border. When I googled Tobin (sic) Amstrong, I found a news story where he described illegal immigrants on his property - so, this is a problem there. He even testified before Congress re this:
But, a permanent border patrol officer at a private person's ranch entrance - that does require some explanation. I bet Lou Dobbs would have a field day.
zortster |
02.16.06 - 6:03 pm | #
love this site. up here in the great white north we do a lot of fishing and theres always more 6packs consumed than there are 6 lbers caught! don't tell me with the entourage that follows cheney around that a ''private weekend '' don't run a couple of hundred thousand bucks. to believe there wasn't plenty of booze and debauchery flying around is to believe theres still wmds in saddam's spider hole!
canadiantrain |
02.17.06 - 1:45 am | #
Only a pussy or a lier would go out hunting with the guys and only drink 1 beer, and we all know which of the two Cheney is.
Roberto Profuncto |
02.17.06 - 8:06 am | #
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